So why?

So this is actually a serious question I have always wondered.

So often there are threads from miners saying they're unhappy with the way they're treated in HighSec. They complain that they are can flipped, bumped and even ganked just because griefers want to have fun.

Why don't miners who are upset with this look for NullSec Alliances and join them? There are no can flippers or bumpers in NullSec, your chances of getting ganked are far lower due in intel channels letting you know when hostile forces are coming your way and instantly knowing any one in local not blue is going to shoot you.

There are "hidden belts" that respawn every day (I believe) with far more valuable ores in them to mine.

So why?

Because most nullsec alliances don't want miners. They only want hardened PvP'ers. Many nullsec alliances advertise in recruitment looking for industrialists and miners, yet it's a bait and switch. When the miner or industrialist gets out there, they're told to get in fleet and fight, and to mine on their own time somewhere else.

That's the problem. The bait and switch. Miners aren't stupid or if they fell for it once they're not stupid enough to fall for the fake lure of nullsec again.

So this is actually a serious question I have always wondered.

So often there are threads from miners saying they're unhappy with the way they're treated in HighSec. They complain that they are can flipped, bumped and even ganked just because griefers want to have fun.

Why don't miners who are upset with this look for NullSec Alliances and join them? There are no can flippers or bumpers in NullSec, your chances of getting ganked are far lower due in intel channels letting you know when hostile forces are coming your way and instantly knowing any one in local not blue is going to shoot you.

There are "hidden belts" that respawn every day (I believe) with far more valuable ores in them to mine.

So why?

Why don't miners who are upset with this look for NullSec Alliances and join them? There are no can flippers or bumpers in NullSec, your chances of getting ganked are far lower due in intel channels letting you know when hostile forces are coming your way and instantly knowing any one in local not blue is going to shoot you.

Are you folks really so unoriginal as to generate this, the 1,556,897th Anti-Miner thread ever on EVE-O forums?

This game needs an infusion of totally new blood and ideas.

This endless cycle has become boring and repetitive for the past 3 years.

I feel sorry actually for those who have played longer and have had to listen to you Man-Children fire up the same old nonsense over and over and over...... year after year after year.

It's quite sad.

So this is actually a serious question I have always wondered.

So often there are threads from miners saying they're unhappy with the way they're treated in HighSec. They complain that they are can flipped, bumped and even ganked just because griefers want to have fun.

Why don't miners who are upset with this look for NullSec Alliances and join them? There are no can flippers or bumpers in NullSec, your chances of getting ganked are far lower due in intel channels letting you know when hostile forces are coming your way and instantly knowing any one in local not blue is going to shoot you.

There are "hidden belts" that respawn every day (I believe) with far more valuable ores in them to mine.

So why?

I was quite careful in not insulting or offending any one while writing it.

Because in nullsec alliances they get killed just because they mine in nullsec sov space "without permission".
Because tritanium and pyerite are actually needed in manufacturing of the ships you use to pew pew mining ships.

And of course nobody is going to let you use their jump network just to move ore around.

So this is actually a serious question I have always wondered.

So often there are threads from miners saying they're unhappy with the way they're treated in HighSec. They complain that they are can flipped, bumped and even ganked just because griefers want to have fun.

Why don't miners who are upset with this look for NullSec Alliances and join them? There are no can flippers or bumpers in NullSec, your chances of getting ganked are far lower due in intel channels letting you know when hostile forces are coming your way and instantly knowing any one in local not blue is going to shoot you.

There are "hidden belts" that respawn every day (I believe) with far more valuable ores in them to mine.

So why?

This wasn't actually an anti-miner thread, I was quite careful in not insulting or offending any one while writing it.
For me it's a serious question I have always wondered, and most of the feedback so far though not as diplomatic has answered my question quite well.

I'm making the assumption that you're a HighSec miner? would you be able to tell me your own reasons for not wanting to move to NullSec and mine, what is it that put you or your corporation off?
Maybe in understanding those reasons the player base or CCP could work on making NullSec more appealing or open to miners.

We have learned not toanswer these threads. I sure have after 3 years.

Uhm... I hate to break this to you...

There's a lot of reasons, most of which have been pointed out but I'll repeat because I'm like that:

1) Profit. Generally speaking you aren't .......

5) Skills. It takes a lot more skillpoints to hash out a career in null-sec mining. You need all your refining skills to make best use of the refining services and high-end mining crystals.

Thank you for being brave. Good luck.

brave? more like honest. null sec isn't an isk printing monster for miners.

if you can't use t2 crystals you really have no business mining. you'll make more isk doing almost anything else.

if you can't use t2 crystals you really have no business mining. you'll make more isk doing almost anything else. not to mention if you can use t2 crystals, a mere 2% refining implant will get you lossless refining in a 40% station if i'm not mistaken.

There's no conditional on this - You will make more ISK in a shorter time doing almost anything that isn't mining, period, since you could have used all the time you spent training those mining skills to get into a mission ship. Mining isn't really that profitable on an individual basis. Most of the people I see making a killing off mining are essentially one-man mining ops that run six accounts or so and mine 10 hours a day. The main thing that makes mining so 'profitable' is that it requires a minimum of attention, so you can mine while watching TV, making dinner, or playing another game, as most of the people I've mined with tended to do. It's a way to convert otherwise wasted time when you can't be bothered to pay attention into a small bit of ISK.

EVE is harsh like that.

That would also require Refining Level 5, Refinery Efficiency V, and (Ore) Processing I. Then the 5% Implant. Get (Ore) Processing V, and you can forget the expensive 5% Implant in Null Sec. But you will need it at a 35% station regardless I believe.

http://eve.podzone.net/refining.php


Let the arguing begin.

EDIT: confusing typo

brave? more like honest. null sec isn't an isk printing monster for miners.

I sure the heck make more with my "2 Hulks and an Orca" than I do Missioning Level 4's. Especially after the Mission LP and Reward nerf. Seriously more in mining with multiple accounts.

See, they'll argue points like this in this thread. I say brave, he says honest.

Of course, it isn't ever allowed to be both.

THEY have to be RIGHT.

i don't mind making more isk in easymode high sec than null sec. suits me fine.


what's to argue about? i know for a fact with the bare minimum skills for t2 crystals and a 2% implant i get lossless refining in whatever stations test have dotted about in fountain. i think they were 40%, certainly weren't 50%. ask a test member, they will tell you, or they won't.

That's why I mentioned the 'individual basis' part. Mining gets more profitable the more people you have doing it, and multi-accounters can make quite a haul off it. On the other hand, three ships running missions can bang those out pretty quick too...

stuff, because i can't quote properly

I sure the heck make more with my "2 Hulks and an Orca" than I do Missioning Level 4's. Especially after the Mission LP and Reward nerf. Seriously more in mining with multiple accounts.

In 0.0 miners are taxed. Either by paying rent or by station refinery tax (or both). And them 0.0 overlords wont lower that tax just because you did a few missions for them.

The thing is you're using 3 characters to do it, how much isk would you pull in if you were using 3 characters to multibox level 4s?

I'd be interested to see the comparison on a per character basis as I assuming you mean you make more with an orca and 2 hulks plugging away at rocks than a single character would make running level 4's and plugging away at NPCs, please correct me if my assumption is wrong.

what kind of terribad 0.0 alliances do this?

That's just they way they all are in null. Ask them why.

none that i've ever been in... 0% refining tax and no rental costs.

That's just they way they all are in null. Ask them why.

Someone's gotta build those stations, capital ships, supercaps, and replacement ships, and most people won't actually donate to the alliance as a whole unless you force them to, so the best way to do it is a tax.

you mean... not every one has a tech moon?

Null sec has a reputation, true or false, that precedes it. Such as an NSA job interview process. Expectations / requirements of their playtime and/or resources. I'm sure many players want nothing to do with that kind of nonsense.

Dave, seriously STOP. I know YOU know all this very well already.

well in null they use bot miners they don't need real miners if they fix the bot mining maybe it be worth mining in null then
easy to talk trash about high sec mining when you use bots to mine in null

My old Alliance leader in Bison used to 3-Toon level 4's just for fun. His money was really in the mining. Not sure what the difference was though.

OP sure has disapeared himsel,f for being so 'interested'.

Seems like rick-roll.

Nullsec is far safer than hi-sec, as we're so frequently and authoritatively told. Hi-sec miners are adrenaline junkies who can't be satisfied with any lesser thrill.

Because anywhere other than high-sec, a miner must pay attention to the game.

The thing is you're using 3 characters to do it, how much isk would you pull in if you were using 3 characters to multibox level 4s?

I'd be interested to see the comparison on a per character basis as I assuming you mean you make more with an orca and 2 hulks plugging away at rocks than a single character would make running level 4's and plugging away at NPCs, please correct me if my assumption is wrong.

edit looks like part of my question was answered while I posted, not editing it out though or I'll have a zero content post

I sure the heck make more with my "2 Hulks and an Orca" than I do Missioning Level 4's. Especially after the Mission LP and Reward nerf.

3 boxing a L4 mission pulls up to 120M per hour.
3 boxing 3 L4 missions can yield more but it's much much harder to do.
5 boxing hi sec mining pulls something like half of it.

can flipping doesn't exist. hi retriever and mackinaw ships, looking at you here buddy!
bumping only happens to afk ice miners, in like 1-2 select systems, which is also easily countered by orbiting the asteroids...
and if people want to gank you, they are going to gank you no matter what you are doing. also, if people bothered to fit a tank they'd encounter such behaviour much less often.

why don't we go to null sec? well firstly, the asteroids are worth a very small fraction more, and involve great transportation costs/effort in order to get our refined product to the trade hub that by the time we've done so; it's less profitable to mine in 0.0.
so let's see, we can sit undisturbed in high sec and mine low ends for decent isk, or we can go to 0.0 and mine ore worth about the same isk and then lose our profits on logistics.

high sec mining is fine, 3 people on the forums complaining about how the bad man made them cry over a game is no indication that mining in high sec is "bad" or "not possible" or anything else, it's just them needing a prescription of man the **** up.

tl;dr high sec mining is more lucrative and less hassle.

if ppl really want to gank you, they'll make sure they have enough alpha available to get it done.
the only defence against ganking is never undocking.

i dont pay/play to not undock


to answer the OP
Gùª because they can
Gùª because CCP put asteroids in hisec and mining ships in the game .... that kinda says to me "ccp planned for hisec mining"




[edit]
2nd defence against ganking -->
Gùª dont fit several officer mods
Gùª dont carry 500 plex in your cargo

Which LP and reward nerf was that?

It's called "can't be arsed" phenomenon.

Well, that is basically the reason for all the so-called problems miners claim to have. Everything should come to them free and without any effort. Waah waah buff our ships, buff concord, nerf ganking, nerf bumping, can't be arsed to try actually playing the game.

Well, that is basically the reason for all the so-called problems miners claim to have. Everything should come to them free and without any effort. Waah waah buff our ships, buff concord, nerf ganking, nerf bumping, can't be arsed to try actually playing the game.

Missions weren't touched, but the big faction warfare buff in Inferno flooded the market for LP store items.

So from the perspective of a dedicated L4 mission runner, the value of the LP store items they sold were "nerfed".

I haven't paid much attention to FW payouts or LP store times since the fix to FW, so I'm not sure LP item prices have completely bounced back.

Flip that question on its head: why would you mine in hisec rather than nullsec?

• Being attacked:Nullsec: Anyone who attacks you will kill you, even in a frigate. Hisec: Anyone who attacks you will soon die at the hand of CONCORD. Gankers need to work at it more in hisec.
• But there's intel channels!Nullsec: You have to sit in a channel and check it every time it flashes in case you spot mention of a system that is nearby. That requires presence and awareness at the computer, knowing what systems are nearby, and reacting appropriately. Hisec: None of that noise! Just you and the rocks.
• More valuable "hidden" belts (assuming you mean Gravimetric sites): They require a) scanning, and b) keeping them clear of rats (which are more dangerous than hisec ones). Hisec: None of that noise!
• Market accessibility: Nullsec: Maybe some local market with people building their own stuff, but you have to haul it through dangerous 0.0 space, and wait a while for it to sell. Hisec: auto-pilot to trade-hub, push the "sell" button.
• Responsibilities:Nullsec: Residents are sometimes called upon to defend their space, move, and can even be driven out. Hisec: None of that noise!

tl;dr: If you are looking for a low-effort profession like mining, why would you not mine in hisec?

Mission LP and Rewards were cut approximately a year ago. Rather seriously too. Not really worth doing solo for the time now wasted.

Again, a lying Goon folks.

It's all they do doncha know.

Which LP and reward nerf was that?

Unless you're talking about the change to agent quality the only thing I can remember them nerfing was meta 0 loot drops and drone poo, bounties seem to be about the same, I still get an average in excess of 3.5-4.5k LP for lvl 4 missions and the mission rewards are still averaging about a million or so. Overall I'm still averaging 30-40 million isk an hour if you include salvage and loot, more if I contract the salvage out to Pro Synergy and just grind another mission.

Just checked back through a lot of patch notes, Incarna, Crucible, Inferno and Escalation introduced no changes to mission LP or rewards, the only changes even vaguely related are listed in the paragraph above.

If you can find something I've missed, please feel free to post a response, preferably with a link to the patch notes you found it in.

1) Use Protection : get buddies to guard your arse!

2) Don't Mine AFK, Watch Local constanly. If someone suspect shows up, hit warp

3) Mine Aligned, not just pointing at something, actually moving at 75% of max speed so you can insta warp if need be. constantly changing between 3 warp-to's is probably the best, forming a triangle with your rock in the middle, never leaving strip miner range.

4) Use a Logi. Someone to rep you while you mine, incase you miss someone coming your way and they get a few shots off before you warp out.

5) DScan is your friend , it's even easier than in HI Sec, know what is around you, and watch for changes. (once watched someone put up a POS just by DScan, was interesting)

BTW, if this seems like too much work for simple belt mining, remember this is the usual response given to HI Sec miners to prevent them from being ganked. To me it seems this list works even better in Null Sec. And for those Null Miners that cry "YOU CAN'T BELT MINE IN NULL, IT"S ASKING TO BE EXPOLDED" .......

DON"T AFK MINE.....MORON

I know. See above.

And it was a pretty big deal at the time. I had just started doing Level 4's in my Raven, and I remember checking the day of the change and noting the around 4,000 payout for one was suddenly like 3250. That much I do remember.

Man, CCP really needs to finally publish or coordinate all these itsy bitsy nit-picky yet important mechanical changes.

Any searches now for descent clarification (which us geeks do 'enjoy' so much) is next to impossible, and even then, one does not know for sure if an even LATER change was made.

God that serach gave me a headache. Spent an hour on it.

That may well have been down to your personal standings with the agent or corporation, I'm at +9 or above with all the agents and corporations I run lvl 4's for, I also have the relevant social skills trained to 4 (connections, social and negotiation) which gives a nice little boost to the rewards.

1) Use Protection : get buddies to guard your arse!

2) Don't Mine AFK, Watch Local constanly. If someone suspect shows up, hit warp

3) Mine Aligned, not just pointing at something, actually moving at 75% of max speed so you can insta warp if need be. constantly changing between 3 warp-to's is probably the best, forming a triangle with your rock in the middle, never leaving strip miner range.

4) Use a Logi. Someone to rep you while you mine, incase you miss someone coming your way and they get a few shots off before you warp out.

5) DScan is your friend , it's even easier than in HI Sec, know what is around you, and watch for changes. (once watched someone put up a POS just by DScan, was interesting)

BTW, if this seems like too much work for simple belt mining, remember this is the usual response given to HI Sec miners to prevent them from being ganked. To me it seems this list works even better in Null Sec. And for those Null Miners that cry "YOU CAN'T BELT MINE IN NULL, IT"S ASKING TO BE EXPOLDED" .......

DON"T AFK MINE.....MORON

As you see for a casual miner or an alt account not needing much attention high sec is the proper place.

I beginning to think people have less of a problem with hi sec and more of a problem with people that don't want to play their way or with them.

Minerals mined outside of high sec are generally used where they are mined.

So this is actually a serious question I have always wondered.

So often there are threads from miners saying they're unhappy with the way they're treated in HighSec. They complain that they are can flipped, bumped and even ganked just because griefers want to have fun.

Why don't miners who are upset with this look for NullSec Alliances and join them? There are no can flippers or bumpers in NullSec, your chances of getting ganked are far lower due in intel channels letting you know when hostile forces are coming your way and instantly knowing any one in local not blue is going to shoot you.

There are "hidden belts" that respawn every day (I believe) with far more valuable ores in them to mine.

So why?

[citation needed]

IS this question relevant to your llife somehow ?

Do you mine?

Why are you not logged in doing what you do in game ?

Can you think of no more interesting question besides one that has been gone over round and round in circles FOR A DECADE ?

Sorry, it's called trolling at this point, and more than likely this thread will be locked within an hour.

We have learned not toanswer these threads. I sure have after 3 years.



EDIT: also, because most folks don't want to wake up at "R U Serious O' Clock" jsut because some crappy defensive OP has come up. Better things to do in life than be a slave to a game.

That's it for me. Have you reached enlightenment yet ?

Seems CCP has a lot of work to do if they ever want to reach the stage where industry corporations will want to move to NullSec and make money mining and producing things for alliances out there.

Seems CCP has a lot of work to do if they ever want to reach the stage where industry corporations will want to move to NullSec and make money mining and producing things for alliances out there.

It's not just a game (re)design matter but a players mindset one.

I don't know about you but not everybody would humiliate themselves into going to a place where they consider you the lowliest form of low life, an "alt worthy" player, "should stop wasting time and join us in the CTA" and so on. Just for some more virtual currency.

It's not just a game (re)design matter but a players mindset one.

I don't know about you but not everybody would humiliate themselves into going to a place where they consider you the lowliest form of low life, an "alt worthy" player, "should stop wasting time and join us in the CTA" and so on. Just for some more virtual currency.

Why should they go through the bother of protecting an industrial infrastructure when everything they need can be more cheaply and more easily sourced from Jita?

titans, supercaps, etc. can't be sourced from jita.
also, building locally is cheaper and offers profit to those in the alliance with industrial alts.
there's a myriad of reasons why you should do industry in 0.0 if it wasn't such a hassle. as it stands the barriers to doing industry in 0.0 make it easier to just JF everything from jita to wherever you're living in 0.0
that's really not how the game should be, regardless of what you think of industry.

Building locally isn't cheaper, except for trivial stuff like ratting ammo, cyno frigates etc, because the facilities in sov 0.0 are so horribly inferior to those in hi-sec. And it certainly isn't easier than just jump-freightering in anything that's needed from Jita.

Most of the alliances I have worked with have never been annoyed with industry corps or players for not joining a CTA or home defence, sure if they're free and can fly a ship they might have been asked or most often willingly volunteer to join up.

It's been interesting to see how this thread has had so many negative responses though, it seems that the player base is not ready to sit down and solve "Why mining and industry is worthless in NullSec" just yet.

sadly it is, it stems from mining.
look at the composition of the grav sites in industry systems in 0.0. none of them contain enough trit to build more than about 2 maelstroms [will double check that's right later]. as such if you want to build anything you've got to import the minerals, usually in compressed form... if you're jumping compressed minerals in to 0.0 you may as well just jump whole ships in.

0.0 industry as a whole needs looking at, regardless of whether or not 0.0 players are "anti everything that doesn't explode"

I don't know about you but not everybody would humiliate themselves into going to a place where they consider you the lowliest form of low life, an "alt worthy" player

And as I've previously mentioned to you, thetre's no reason for 0.0 players to encoruage industrials in their territory at the moment? Why should they go through the bother of protecting an industrial infrastructure when everything they need can be more cheaply and more easily sourced from Jita?

There are plenty of rocks in the belts if low and mid ends are required; anoms aren't the only place you can mine.

But yes I absolutely agree that 0.0 industry as a whole needs looking at.

Supercaps are pretty much the only things that are built in 0.0, and for exactly that reason: there's a coded restriction on them being built anywhere else.

Building locally isn't cheaper, except for trivial stuff like ratting ammo, cyno frigates etc, because the facilities in sov 0.0 are so horribly inferior to those in hi-sec. And it certainly isn't easier than just jump-freightering in anything that's needed from Jita.

Again, people in 0.0 don't have any ideological hatred of non combat activities happening there - once again, I'll remind everyone that a very significant fraction of hi-sec activity is carried out by characters belonging to people who think of themselves as "0.0 players". Of the 6 characters on my 2 accounts, 3 spend all or nearly all of their time in hi-sec and I'm far from unusual in this. As soon as it is more effective for ships & mods to be built in 0.0, they will be. But it's difficult to compete when, for example, there are more manufacturing slots in the system of Nonni than there are in the whole of Deklein, a very heavily developed region.

Player built stations are pathetically underpowered compared to NPC stations, when it should be the other way around. An alliance that wants to really commit to developing a system should be able to build it up to be superior to any empire system.

I am thinking the fix for null sec industry might be to get rid of the jump freighter.

..

In fact then industrialists would become a valuable asset in null and something that could be attacked to wipe out your opponents manufacturing ability. Something to fight over in null as a strategic resource.

I am thinking the fix for null sec industry might be to get rid of the jump freighter.

The problem of nullsec industry isn't one of demand, it's a problem of a near-complete lack of industrial facilities with no way to rectify it. There are single systems in highsec that have more industrial capability than entire nullsec regions. Until that gets fixed in a big way, any other changes are wasting time.

Even that is not really right.

The biggest problem is the fact that NPC facilities crap all over player run ones. Be they Outposts or POSs. It they are player built and run they should crap all over NPC ones..

nope. 0.0 is the only place that really produces exportable quantities of mega/zyd/morph. that's got to get back to empire somehow, even if by regular freighter. that freighter then has to make a return trip; why do it empty?

at the end of the day removing jump freighters does nothing but makes null sec logistics harder. it won't solve anything to do with null sec industry in the slightest.

.Often it is already built in null and reprocessed in empire already for the mineral content.

I am thinking the fix for null sec industry might be to get rid of the jump freighter.

You reply to my first non-question "not just a game (re)design matter", but not to the "players mindset one", which imo is the hard if not impossible bit to fix.
It's just hard - regardless of context - to make highly competitive, adrenalinic if not testosteronic people live well with "live and let live" relaxed guys who don't care to be elite or "skilled" or whatever makes the former feel accomplished.

So you tell me, V.V., let's say I'm running a 0.0 corp and I have a choice of 2 members applying to join

Member 1 has one ratting/PvP character and one mining/industry character. When the going gets tough, he's prepared to log off his Hulk and get in fleet, spending his time and risking his ship to protect he alliance's space. When things are quiet, he uses the limited build slots to make ships and ammo which he sells

Member 2 has 4 mining/industry characters, and wants to do nothing but mine. When the going gets tough, he ignores intel and doesn't join fleet, and at best he just logs off, leaving others to shoulder the burden of protecting the resources he exploits. When things are quiet, he uses 4x as many limited build slots to make ships and ammo which he sells

Which member should I accept, do you think?


In essence, your complaint reads like you dislike that alliances in 0.0 expect members to contribute to the maintainance and preservation of the alliance, instead of letting you freeload like you can in empire. Why would any CEO want someone like you who views supporting the team as an onerous and unjust obligation?

In essence, your complaint reads like you dislike that alliances in 0.0 expect members to contribute to the maintainance and preservation of the alliance, instead of letting you freeload like you can in empire. Why would any CEO want someone like you who views supporting the team as an onerous and unjust obligation?

Then what's this problem with "player mindset" that you're talking about exactly?

It's not "a problem" for me. It's a problem to those who cannot withstand anybody who thinks different than them.

As for what it's exactly, it was stated in the same post you started your replies at.

It's a matter of personality, of certain kinds of players classifying and eventually discriminating other players because they are not as "energic", "active" etc. etc. like they are.

Example:

A guy likes AFK mining, then it's not simply a guy who likes AFK mining for his own - whatever - reasons.

In their eyes he becomes:

He MUST to be an idiot who engages the lowest form of life for absolutely no reason and that should be terminated at the first opportunity. A true parasite, they deserve torture, humiliation and public scorn.

Never mind they are paying a subscription to THE self proclaimed sandbox game where everybody can carve their niche.

No need to kill the jump freighter, just remove mineral compression. Give combat ships large ammo bays but teensy cargo bays. Now you have room for specialist ammunition haulers (i.e.: combat tenders) and producing things closer to the point of consumption becomes a strategic and tactical advantage.

[citation needed]

Thanks for all the replies, especially to Aila Garris for her detailed breakdown.

I never really thought about the the issues with alliance leaderships, most of the alliances I have been in with industry corps let them go about their own thing. Although maybe I just wasn't aware of what was going on.

Seems CCP has a lot of work to do if they ever want to reach the stage where industry corporations will want to move to NullSec and make money mining and producing things for alliances out there.

You're becoming increasingly unhinged Mr. Krixtal, perhaps you should take a break there buddy.

Oh you don't have to move anywhere for that.

Oh right, it's just something you made up that doesn't need any evidence or examples

OK then.

Oh right, it's just something you made up that doesn't need any evidence or examples
OK then.

Yes, more than half a decade of forums feedback don't convey the feelings. At all.

Yes, more than half a decade of forums feedback don't convey the feelings. At all.

So you got nothing?

Most of the alliances I have worked with have never been annoyed with industry corps or players for not joining a CTA or home defence, sure if they're free and can fly a ship they might have been asked or most often willingly volunteer to join up.

It's been interesting to see how this thread has had so many negative responses though, it seems that the player base is not ready to sit down and solve "Why mining and industry is worthless in NullSec" just yet.

The standard response is "nerf hisec"

the suggested nerfs typically include, but are not limited to suggestions similar to :-
"make velspar the only asteroid in hisec"
"move L4 missions to losec"
"move Level 2+ missions to losec and npc nulsec"
"remove most Industry slots in hisec"

the list carries on in a similar vein for maybe another 10-15 similar simplistic 'ideas'
and im sure you can tell it's a very negative list


constructive theorycrafting is a skill that is beyond most of the posters to these forums, they do not have either the raw intelligence or the creative intuition required to contribute in a constructive, logical manner.

the sad part is, when you give them a constructive solution, but one that would require effort and endeavour for nulsec to accomplish, they don't want it because it's not being "given to them with no effort"

Welp, I cannot speak from personal experience, but the logic seems sound.

"Welp, I have no idea what anyone actually does in null, but I've arbitrarily decided I know what they do with their minerals!"

generaldiscussion.txt right there

Because anywhere other than high-sec, a miner must pay attention to the game.

This was the only responce the thread needed.

... and some couldn't really figure out by themselves without asking, eh?

Not like CCP didn't make abundantly clear the other day.

"Welp, I have no idea what anyone actually does in null, but I've arbitrarily decided I know what they do with their minerals!"

generaldiscussion.txt right there

So this is actually a serious question I have always wondered.

So often there are threads from miners saying they're unhappy with the way they're treated in HighSec. They complain that they are can flipped, bumped and even ganked just because griefers want to have fun.

Why don't miners who are upset with this look for NullSec Alliances and join them? There are no can flippers or bumpers in NullSec, your chances of getting ganked are far lower due in intel channels letting you know when hostile forces are coming your way and instantly knowing any one in local not blue is going to shoot you.

There are "hidden belts" that respawn every day (I believe) with far more valuable ores in them to mine.

So why?

titans, supercaps, etc. can't be sourced from jita.

They effectively are, we just have the actually build them in 0.0.

Yes, more than half a decade of forums feedback don't convey the feelings. At all.

~MD Superstar~, eh?

To think you've criticized others for appealing to authority.

A couple of thousands posts created in the last years certainly passed completely unseen.

Because anywhere other than high-sec, a miner must pay attention to the game.

Actualy not, miners in empire are more in danger than in null space, where big alliances directors alts mining in some 0.0 empty systems, i know mining got big boost , like no need to use jet cans, big ore bays, roles etc but people still hate miners, espetialy in empire area.

Actualy not, miners in empire are more in danger than in null space, where big alliances directors alts mining in some 0.0 empty systems, i know mining got big boost , like no need to use jet cans, big ore bays, roles etc but people still hate miners, espetialy in empire area.

True story i was few month in c0ven alliance (long time ago), meny of pvprs just mining rare ores on alts like this one which may explode while mining, no idea how things went these days in this alliance, i dont blame them for it, just share with my view, everyone got ritgt to mining.

There's a lot of reasons, most of which have been pointed out but I'll repeat because I'm like that:

1) Profit.