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Handon Guild
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Posted - 2005.05.17 09:53:00 -
[31]
Edited by: Handon Guild on 17/05/2005 09:59:58
 Originally by: Hella May
And for the bloke who said stop whineing about thisą.. STFU and get a life, or at least think before you speak. Using exploits isnĘt part of the game and recycling alts isnĘt either. As some wise individual said, petition the exploit not the killing.
Also, if they wanna act like children do the sameą get alts in kestrels to gank their kestrels 1st.
I am the "bloke", as you so nicely put it, who said that, and I stand by it! It's not me who should shut up and get a life - it's you my petty mining lemming!
I never said anything about recycling alts - I only made a comment on the fact that there was finally some action in Empire. Having a pirate alt is not an exploit if you don't recycle it...
So please, get a grip and don't talk to me in that tone!
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A day of fun in Denmark |
SlaneeshZ
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Posted - 2005.05.17 10:02:00 -
[32]
You know, no EVE-Online forum thread is perfect without at least one time use of the words "whine","noob" and "carebear". I recommend learning EVE-Online Thread Construction V to let loose those valuable threadbuilding phrases like "get a life","roll for another game","can I have your stuff" and "shut the f*** up".
Anyways, back to the topic. I personally think anyways that Alt character creation should cost something, same for deletion, same for maintaining it. I guarantee that the use of alts will drop.
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A true player does feel no need to remind himself or fellow players that it is just a game. |
Viceroy
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Posted - 2005.05.17 10:26:00 -
[33]
The problem is that alts are easy to create, and allow risk free actions with no accountability. You have no way to retaliate, the assailant has nothing to lose. This is bad.
The solution is to fix alt abuse by a chosen means. I fully support this.
The problem is not the fact that you can die in a 1.0 belt via sucidie kestrels. You can prevent it by several means;
- Mine in low sec. There are plenty of ice belts in low security space, and even the uninhabited high sec systems that are not on the highway. Just because you've never been off the highway doesn't mean that ice belts don't exist in other systems.
- Stop being afk. Even when semi-afk you can check local for threats, scan for hostile ships and warp the hell out when 5 kestrels warp to your belt. As long as you're not afk, survival rates are pretty much 99%.
- Get some friends to help you. EVE isn't a single player game. Hire or befriend a hauler to haul your ice, get some friends to guard you in low sec and split the profit. Woha, player interaction and stuff. wtf?
- Use your brain and quit crying to CCP for a safety net just because you (in particular) don't want to/are to lazy to take precautions that most other people take all the time. The objective of the game is not to allow you to make as much profit as possible when afk and alone.
I find your attitude to be extremely exhuberant, please refrain from it if you don't want me to eat ripe coconuts with an ice-cream cone. Thanks.
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Moominer
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Posted - 2005.05.17 10:27:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Eraza
i agree, i dont care really that people still use suicide tactics... the PROBLEM, is that a large mining barge, + a proper fitting, costs like 30-40 mil isk, and can easily be killed by a couple of frigates, before concord even appears...
Barges need a substantial armor/structure boost or much higher resistances to prevent this.
It is not like they have the capacitor whilst mining to tank anyway.
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The Procrastinator
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Posted - 2005.05.17 10:28:00 -
[35]
I think the answer that was said earlier that Barges should be given enough structure to repel kestrel ganks is a good one. It won't be strong enough to survive a normal attack, but long enough for concorde to get there and kill the gankers.
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Helmut 314
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Posted - 2005.05.17 10:48:00 -
[36]
Ok. 4 suicide kestrels has a high, but limited damage output, and it is possible to make a setup that tanks them in a barge.
A large barge has 800 base armor and 500 base shields. With decent skills, say hull upgrades 3 and shield management 3 you have 920 armor and 575 shields : 1495 hp. If you add a 400 mm rolled tungsten to that you boost your armor considerably.
Training hull upgrades and shield management helps a lot too. In the near future armor plates and shield extenders seem to get a bit of a boost too, so adding armor plates to barges might be even better soonÖ
___________________________________
Trying is the first step of failure
- Homer J Simpson |
Helmut 314
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Posted - 2005.05.17 11:03:00 -
[37]
Oh, and an easy way to solve the looting is to just cut the price of iceharvies/stripminer I. 
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Trying is the first step of failure
- Homer J Simpson |
The Procrastinator
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Posted - 2005.05.17 11:09:00 -
[38]
You can't fit 400 mm armour after fitting ice/strip miners all you can fit is a 200 mill one and thats with very hig skills 
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Sergeant Spot
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Posted - 2005.05.17 11:17:00 -
[39]
Edited by: Sergeant Spot on 17/05/2005 11:19:05
Originally by: The Procrastinator
Edited by: The Procrastinator on 17/05/2005 06:31:56
There is no ice off the highway,
Drones do no damage before you are dead,
Cannot mine to a can as ore thieves,
I petitioned and the GM gave NO help at all and said it was perfectly allowed in the game mechanics!!!
True, it's mainly the recycling, and the abilty to gank most ships with enough alt kestrels.
There is plenty of Ice around
Drones kill the NPCs dead, easy. I've solo mined in 0.6 and killed several NPC spawn using 4 wasps. The spawn never made it past half my shield.
If you have a friend hauling, a can works fine for transfer. Just don't leave any Ice in it until your hauler gets back.
Having said all that, ore theives should be nerfed into non-existance just like lab scammers were. Doing this would be easy for CCP to do, and would have no negative impact for actual players.
As for suicide alts, they too should be nerfed into non-existance too, but doing that without negative impact on the game would be harder.
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Captain Rod
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Posted - 2005.05.17 11:19:00 -
[40]
Them kessies are meanies. You can survive 1 but more than that and even a large bargey with the "standard" armour rep and plate (not expanders you fools!) will struggle to survive.
I don't think it is a sploit but there does need to be some accountablility as no laws apply to these people really so hey everyone should do it right just like ore thieves?
I mean everybody can make 2 alts. Lets all have alt1=ore thief hauler, alt2=kessie barge griefer?
Then we can all join in the "fun".
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Colthor
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Posted - 2005.05.17 11:19:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Helmut 314
A large barge has 800 base armor and 500 base shields. With decent skills, say hull upgrades 3 and shield management 3 you have 920 armor and 575 shields : 1495 hp. If you add a 400 mm rolled tungsten to that you boost your armor considerably.
Sadly, there's not enough grid after miners to fit armour plates on a Large Barge (enough for a 200mm plate on a Medium). Plenty to fit hardeners, o'course.
If you're only afraid of Kestrels there's nothing to stop you filling your Medium and Low slots with passive Kinetic shield and armour hardeners. That should help survivability.
Oh, as for alts:
On my second account I have two useful characters. My "main" alt, who gets trained, and also another character who has 95k SP, but saves my two main characters (and other members of my corp) loads of travelling time by looking after the POSs.
A blanket Kill The Alts would hurt harmless, useful characters like him - but not stop the unaccountability, as there's always 14-day trial accounts for the expendable suicide alts.
--
OTO are selling Impel and Bustard transport ships. Contact Tsavong Lah or Lacero Callrisian for details.
Like mining, hauling or building? Join OTO! |
Bubba Fett
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Posted - 2005.05.17 11:20:00 -
[42]
One partial solution would be for CPP to simply charge to terminate an alt the way they do to change your portrait.
The idea behind the alt is that you can remake a character if you screw up the first time or so that you can explore another career path. (industrialist main and a pirate alt)
It also give you a way to log on when your main is stuck.
I'm pretty sure the alt was never intended as an expendable character so why not nerf the recycling of them the way they've nerfed all the other unintended game features that people have discovered?
Another solution would to put the name of the accounts other characters in the killmail or the name of the person who gave them the buddy account. This would make SOMEONE accountable.
If you're a pirate and you really HAVE to be anonymous then you buy another boxed copy of eve that has no ties to your main and pay to transfer your alt to that.
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Lifewire
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Posted - 2005.05.17 11:21:00 -
[43]
My suicidal alt did participate in several of these attacks and i see several problems that have to be solved by CCP:
- alts only cause problems. They scout riskfree, they kill riskfree, they flame in forums riskfree. Alts should be removed. Until alts dont get removed i will use my alt to kill mining barges.
- riskless mining in 1.0. It¦s a problem, why? We did destory 2 Atuk miners in a high sec. system. My question: why can old characters (Atuk pilots) mine totally riskfree in empire??? In 0.0 they only show up in their blob - meanwhile they can go mining riskfree in 1.0. Is this wanted by CCP that old characters steal the n00bs ore in 1.0??? Macromining stripmining folks wherever you look in 1.0.
As long these 2 things are not solved by CCP, the TDG suicidal Kestells will be there to kill 1-2 year old characters that hide in empire - quite simple. And we dont need alts to do it. We can use 2-3 -10 character in pods that board insured Kessis/Caracals.
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Handon Guild
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Posted - 2005.05.17 11:39:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Lifewire
Riskless mining in 1.0. It¦s a problem, why? We did destory 2 Atuk miners in a high sec. system. My question: why can old characters (Atuk pilots) mine totally riskfree in empire??? In 0.0 they only show up in their blob - meanwhile they can go mining riskfree in 1.0. Is this wanted by CCP that old characters steal the n00bs ore in 1.0??? Macromining stripmining folks wherever you look in 1.0.
Exactly my words - thank you Lifewire. You can say what you want, but any character who's at least one year old shouldn't degrade himself to whining about loosing a mining barge. If you are a miner, you'll be filthy rich anyway, and if you're a PvP'er, you should know that you won't be safe anywhere, regardless of system security level.
As long as you old players mine in 1.0 systems, we'll be there for you 
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A day of fun in Denmark |
Poseiden
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Posted - 2005.05.17 12:31:00 -
[45]
I think whats needed here perhaps is a tech 2 Covert Ops Mining Barge... meh.. maybe with a mine whilst cloaked bonus 
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Reeperman
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Posted - 2005.05.17 12:39:00 -
[46]
Edited by: Reeperman on 17/05/2005 12:38:47
I guess it makes a change from a disco-thron decloaking 2.5km from you and putting you back in a clone vat 
Large smartbombs + cloak 4tw
---**---**---
Carebear and proud of it
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Ravenal
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Posted - 2005.05.17 12:40:00 -
[47]
have you ever taken a tour of the ice belt in lustrevik... or any other 1.0 ice mining belt?
guessing you have - and so have I.
it just so happens to be that a huge majority of the "miners" there are macro miners. And as you know macro mining is bannable... as is alt recycling.
Im not saying you are macro mining but i can say this... i use a med mining barge solo in 0.5 and waste every npc spawn with my drones (macro miners cant mine in 0.5 cause they might get blown up). I mine with a friend of mine in a 0.1 ice belt where we can take care of almost any spawn with our mining barge drones (those 14 npc's spawning is a tad tough).
As i see it macro mining in 1.0 is a bigger problem than kestrel ganking or even the suicide alt recycling. Because of those macro miners we who mine our ice honestly in our own game time get less isk for our minerals... and the POS people make a bigger profit margin (because there really isnt a connection between the fuel price and the T2 component price because of the market imbalances the limited numbers of bpo's released in the lotter poses).
so really.. the solution to your problem is to go down to a 0.8 - 0.5 system to mine ice. Avoid macro mining because its the ebil and enjoy the opportunity you get to chat with your corp mates or the people in local...
...new sig coming up
Ravenal - Fate is what you make of it. |
Rod Blaine
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Posted - 2005.05.17 12:45:00 -
[48]
Edited by: Rod Blaine on 17/05/2005 12:45:52
Originally by: Handon Guild
Originally by: Lifewire
Riskless mining in 1.0. It¦s a problem, why? We did destory 2 Atuk miners in a high sec. system. My question: why can old characters (Atuk pilots) mine totally riskfree in empire??? In 0.0 they only show up in their blob - meanwhile they can go mining riskfree in 1.0. Is this wanted by CCP that old characters steal the n00bs ore in 1.0??? Macromining stripmining folks wherever you look in 1.0.
Exactly my words - thank you Lifewire. You can say what you want, but any character who's at least one year old shouldn't degrade himself to whining about loosing a mining barge.
Enter the noobcorp. Noobcorps should be changed imo, no chars older then 3 months should be able to be in one, simply creat npc corps that are open to war for those not wanting or refusing to leave the noobcorp, and boot them to those after 3 months. End of this ridiculous safety for older players in 1.0. Yay for accountability.
As far as corporations go, well, there's a war system for that isnt there ?
_______________________________________________
Yes yes, blogging is passŚ I know.
Rod's Ramblingz on Eve-Online
Solutions to your issues. |
Alex Harumichi
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Posted - 2005.05.17 12:48:00 -
[49]
Once again a problem caused by alts.
Here's one solution: make information about alts public. This solves a bunch of problems with one swell foop, and would make it possible for players to actually track people who are recycyling alts (=exploiting).
Killing ice miners is fine and part of the game. Recycling alts to do it is not, that's just griefing without any cost to yourself.
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Uther Doull
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Posted - 2005.05.17 13:00:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Ravenal
it just so happens to be that a huge majority of the "miners" there are macro miners. And as you know macro mining is bannable... as is alt recycling.
it's not macro mining, what most afk ice miners do is put on expanders so you can fit 2 cycles (on a large barge) wich takes 15 mins, then they set an egg timer and go do somethingelse, and come back to either warp to station and dump the ice or pass it on to a hauler..
now ofcourse these afk miners will be the majority of ppl getting suicide ganked by the alts, and they should find out other ways to mine so they can defend against this...
this game is not supposed to be played afk, and i think ccp did a major booboo when they made the ice miner cycle take 7,5mins with full skill.... i mean wtf were you smoking??? if it would be more like normal mining then this problem would be less of a problem anyway
still alts are a pain, for boat loads of reasons
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Bonaventure Phaidon
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Posted - 2005.05.17 13:12:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Sergeant Spot
Having said all that, ore theives should be nerfed into non-existance just like lab scammers were. Doing this would be easy for CCP to do, and would have no negative impact for actual players.
As for suicide alts, they too should be nerfed into non-existance too, but doing that without negative impact on the game would be harder.
Stealing Can = Ore Thief = Regular Alt/Main Character.
Blowing up ship in 1.0 with Kessie = Ganker = Suicide Alt
1.0 Ore Thieves are guys who tick you off because you're a lazy jetcan miner. 1.0 Gankers are guys who tick you off because they blow up your ship and take your loot. Ore Thieves love having a reputation, so even if they're an alt, you see them over and over and over (seen the crime forum lately?). Gankers create disposable alts to avoid reprisals.
Yeah, mining has multiple risks, but they're separate problems that need to be addressed separately.
So lets not confuse the two issues, shall we?
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Eris Discordia
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Posted - 2005.05.17 13:23:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Miri Tirzan
I was going to ignore this but it just chaps me to see someone in a position of authority do something like this.
The GM's can look it up and verify if someone is using an alt to recycle to do suicide kestrel missions. Next you have a problem with what I say you can mail [email protected] by the way.
I ♥ my pink dreadnought of pwnage
Mail [email protected] if you have any questions. |
Ikvar
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Posted - 2005.05.17 13:57:00 -
[53]
Why not tank your barges? 
_________________
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Dionysus Davinci
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Posted - 2005.05.17 14:06:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Booster Rooster
I'm getting fed up of this to!! The profit for ice is low as it is. the loss of 2 ships to these idiots stopped me from even bothering anymore
There are tons of untapped fields in 0.0 that give like 5x the return in ice products then what you are getting now. Perhaps you need to reconsider where you mine.
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Specops
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Posted - 2005.05.17 14:11:00 -
[55]
Don't increase a barges sheild/armor/hull. Not everyone uses alts to do this and it would suck for us.
~Specops~ |
The Procrastinator
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Posted - 2005.05.17 14:19:00 -
[56]
Edited by: The Procrastinator on 17/05/2005 14:43:27
Edited by: The Procrastinator on 17/05/2005 14:20:41
Where I mine is closest to my pos's, and it also has 100% refine stations. I heard back from my petition and the suicide kessies have been sent a warning for misuse of alts.
As for not being around the pc while mining, yes this is true, a lot of the time I personally alt tab between work and browsing, or go watch a film. Egg time 4TW : ) as a student it helps to have 15 mins revision for exams on pc then alt-tab to eve to dock up.
Just wish you could run more eve progs on 1 pc without it crashing, more ram methinks.
And true about the local chat thing, my local has more drama than any soap opera he he
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Lifewire
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Posted - 2005.05.17 14:25:00 -
[57]
I have to say that we dont use Kessis and then recycle the alt to do it again. We know the rules and won¦t exploit. And we dont need to exploit. It is no problem to bring -10 characters to Yulai, place a ready Kessi or Caracal near the macromining target and warp with an insta to the Kessi/Caracal. Eject-board, open fire and lean back for the explosions. Alts are not needed for this job. Don¦t think you are safe in 1.0. We cannnot destroy all of you, but if we see old players, especially named corps that claim to be uber in pvp, then we might want to destroy your mining barge. And we will do it over and over again until you guys fit modules that are worth 25 mil or more. Thank you for the expanders, cya
And before i forget it: convo me if you want to buy named cargo expanders - sligtly used and stinking ore was inside, but still ok.
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Sergeant Spot
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Posted - 2005.05.17 14:38:00 -
[58]
Edited by: Sergeant Spot on 17/05/2005 14:40:30
Originally by: Bonaventure Phaidon
Originally by: Sergeant Spot
Having said all that, ore theives should be nerfed into non-existance just like lab scammers were. Doing this would be easy for CCP to do, and would have no negative impact for actual players.
As for suicide alts, they too should be nerfed into non-existance too, but doing that without negative impact on the game would be harder.
Stealing Can = Ore Thief = Regular Alt/Main Character.
Blowing up ship in 1.0 with Kessie = Ganker = Suicide Alt
1.0 Ore Thieves are guys who tick you off because you're a lazy jetcan miner. 1.0 Gankers are guys who tick you off because they blow up your ship and take your loot. Ore Thieves love having a reputation, so even if they're an alt, you see them over and over and over (seen the crime forum lately?). Gankers create disposable alts to avoid reprisals.
Yeah, mining has multiple risks, but they're separate problems that need to be addressed separately.
So lets not confuse the two issues, shall we?
Your lack of reading ability is showing. If you were able to read, you'd note that everything in my post was a response to issues raised in an earlier post, and also that there is no point where I "confuse" ore theft and suicide alts.
Edit: And for the record, I've never lost a single point of ore to a thief, nor been a suicide alt victim.
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Skuld OdinsDottir
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Posted - 2005.05.17 14:55:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Lifewire
I have to say that we dont use Kessis and then recycle the alt to do it again. We know the rules and won¦t exploit. And we dont need to exploit. It is no problem to bring -10 characters to Yulai, place a ready Kessi or Caracal near the macromining target and warp with an insta to the Kessi/Caracal. Eject-board, open fire and lean back for the explosions. Alts are not needed for this job. Don¦t think you are safe in 1.0. We cannnot destroy all of you, but if we see old players, especially named corps that claim to be uber in pvp, then we might want to destroy your mining barge. And we will do it over and over again until you guys fit modules that are worth 25 mil or more. Thank you for the expanders, cya
And before i forget it: convo me if you want to buy named cargo expanders - sligtly used and stinking ore was inside, but still ok.
wont people get trigger happy when they see a flashing pod in empire ?
Liquid dreams filled her mind as she found herself sinking into an eternal ocean of blood. An ocean she had created over the severed flesh of her assigned targets. |
FireFoxx80
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Posted - 2005.05.17 15:02:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Viceroy
- Use your brain and quit crying to CCP for a safety net just because you (in particular) don't want to/are to lazy to take precautions that most other people take all the time. The objective of the game is not to allow you to make as much profit as possible when afk and alone.
Amen to that. A Ferox will pull in a very close amount to a Medium Barge and easily tank suicide kestrels. A badger can also be kitted out to tank a lot of damage before going pop. But then again, without experimenting or bothing to ask, you wouldn't know that. (not you Viceroy, the general public)
ex P-TMC
If you think you can do a better job, go find yourself a datacentre to host a box, get a copy of Visual Studio, and STFU.
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