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Meridius	Posted - 2005.05.24 23:23:00 - [31] Edited by: Meridius on 24/05/2005 23:23:42 Originally by: Sadist Originally by: Elve Sorrow BS 4. You're making the exact same mistake as CCP did when introducing Battleships - making them too easy. Do you really want to see everyone and his mummy fly a Dreadnaught? Because with skillreqs like that, everyone who can afford one will get one. Its a tech 1 ship. And i want to be able to fly it within a _reasonable_ time period after it comes out, not after half year training just to be able to fly it. A person can fly a BS with about 1 mil SP , but he's going to be horrible at it. Same thing must and will go for dreads. Uhh no. These are going to be a rare sight both because of skill requirement and cost amongst possibly other factors. This is how CCP originally wanted battleships, rare and feared. I'm hoping battleship 5 is required. ISK has been raped by level 4 missions, the only real barrier left is skill. They should cost around 1 billion imo. 2bil+ would pretty much make it carebear only. ________________________________________________________
Bagdh Dearg	Posted - 2005.05.24 23:33:00 - [32] Edited by: Bagdh Dearg on 24/05/2005 23:34:11 Battleship 5 is a must In My Honest Opinion. I really want these ships to be special,Friggin Awe-inspiring so that when they Appear at a Battle everything goes ***** silent for a few seconds as they watch it enter seige mode and those massive guns track onto some helpless Megathron. What I dont want is another B-F-R (Planetside people will know precisly what Im talking about but just in case..) SOE implemented a few months back a new type of Vehicle called the BFR(Big Friggin Robot/Battlefield Robotics) It was hailed as the tide turner,Something that you'd see every so ofthen but when you did you would either Cheer or Yell in despair.Sounds great doesnt it? What we got was another Kill-* Extravganza,Every Man and his Jackhammer had one and more were arriving everyday,You couldnt have a good Bridge Battle or Base hack without a sea of Mincing robots spamming doorways and rooftops.Basically Hell on Auraxis. I left soon after. The moral of that rant(apologies but it has parallel's with this situation) is that Titans,Dreadnaughts and Carriers need to be flown by the best EVE players who have spent alot of time concentrating on getting these ships.Not someone with a ton of cash to buy on and after a month of learning can fly one(Poorly sure but would he really fly it in battle?) However I have total faith in CCP that they know what they're doing and are so much more Competant then SOE that we will soon have some of the most impressive,Sought after and Devastatingly powerful ships which will only be availible to those who deserve to fly them. _______________________________________________ An tÚ nach bhfuil lßidir nÝ folßir d¾ bheith glic** -He who is not strong must be crafty
Sobeseki Pawi	Posted - 2005.05.25 00:13:00 - [33] Originally by: Elve Sorrow BS 4. You're making the exact same mistake as CCP did when introducing Battleships - making them too easy. Do you really want to see everyone and his mummy fly a Dreadnaught? Because with skillreqs like that, everyone who can afford one will get one. And they will lose it, because they don't know how to use it. ~Sobe Captain Cutie, Razor's Kiss What is your Radical Dream?
Sobeseki Pawi	Posted - 2005.05.25 00:17:00 - [34] Make Destroyer require Frig 5, Cruiser require Destroyer 5, Battlecruiser require Cruiser 5, BSes require BC 5, and Dreads require BS 5. Then it will make sense to make Dreads need BS 5. ~Sobe Captain Cutie, Razor's Kiss What is your Radical Dream?
Sergej	Posted - 2005.05.25 00:29:00 - [35] What is so bad if Dreads are reachable to spoilt rich carebears? I will never fly dreads, so I couldn't care less. But if a dread is flown by a bad pilot it's just a bil isk liability. and we all love good kilmaills, don't we?:D Regards, Sergej
Rod Blaine	Posted - 2005.05.25 00:44:00 - [36] Edited by: Rod Blaine on 25/05/2005 00:47:15 BS 5 Engineering 5 (duh) Space ship Command 5 Capitol Ships 3 (or whatever you want to call it, 1 for freighters, 3 for dreads, 5 for titans). Building cost: 500mill each in minerals + npc fee of say 250 mill. That sorts out the proliferation question for a while. _______________________________________________ Yes yes, blogging is passÚ I know. Rod's Ramblingz on Eve-Online Solutions to your issues.
Meridius	Posted - 2005.05.25 00:58:00 - [37] Originally by: Sobeseki Pawi And they will lose it, because they don't know how to use it. Yeah that already happens enough with muppets flying battleships. We don't need to carry on that shame with Dreadnaughts. ________________________________________________________
Sobeseki Pawi	Posted - 2005.05.25 00:59:00 - [38] Originally by: Rod Blaine Edited by: Rod Blaine on 25/05/2005 00:47:15 BS 5 Engineering 5 (duh) Space ship Command 5 Capitol Ships 3 (or whatever you want to call it, 1 for freighters, 3 for dreads, 5 for titans). Building cost: 500mill each in minerals + npc fee of say 250 mill. That sorts out the proliferation question for a while. Capital Ship Command...hmm CSC lvl 1 - BC CSC lvl 2 - BS CSC lvl 3 - Carrier CSC lvl 4 - Dread CSC lvl 5 - Titan Training Multiplier could be say...rank 12? Skill mod could be say Capital ship Agility 3%. And just for gits and grins, make Charisma the primary, and Memory the secondary. Btw...why would a freighter need to be on this skill? It's not a capital ship hehe. ~Sobe Captain Cutie, Razor's Kiss What is your Radical Dream?
Meridius	Posted - 2005.05.25 01:00:00 - [39] Edited by: Meridius on 25/05/2005 01:00:24 Originally by: Sobeseki Pawi Make Destroyer require Frig 5, Cruiser require Destroyer 5, Battlecruiser require Cruiser 5, BSes require BC 5, and Dreads require BS 5. Then it will make sense to make Dreads need BS 5. Dreadnaughts are unique, they are capitol ships. Stop trying to fit them in where they do not belong. All the ships you mentioned are just that, ships. Dreadnoughts are captial ships, that stands for something. ________________________________________________________
Sobeseki Pawi	Posted - 2005.05.25 01:02:00 - [40] Originally by: Meridius Edited by: Meridius on 25/05/2005 01:00:24 Originally by: Sobeseki Pawi Make Destroyer require Frig 5, Cruiser require Destroyer 5, Battlecruiser require Cruiser 5, BSes require BC 5, and Dreads require BS 5. Then it will make sense to make Dreads need BS 5. Dreadnaughts are unique, they are capitol ships. Stop trying to fit them in where they do not belong. All the ships you mentioned are just that, ships. Dreadnoughts are captial ships, that stands for something. Technically BSes are capital ships too. ~Sobe Captain Cutie, Razor's Kiss What is your Radical Dream?
kessah	Posted - 2005.05.25 01:09:00 - [41] well i think personally someone with noob skills and lots of cash can by all means fly one and get ganked tbh. Without the gunnery skills its a show off ship around empire space. I personally would make sure your bases are covered with t2 large weaponary now. Navigation a must. Id imagine most of the upgrade skills to 5 wouldnt hurt. As for the spaceship command prequis its anyones guess. tho it cant hurt for spaceship command 5, and bs lvl 4. I have a feeling the main skills req wont be out until the dread is out. Tho personally i would love to be a dev and be really evil and tell you all the dread would require science and industry type skills to 5..... wonder how many would actually be so dumb as to train them.. muhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah cough -------------------------------------------------------- Im Your Huckleberry ;-)
Luc Boye	Posted - 2005.05.25 01:16:00 - [42] It should be bs5 to have the intended effect of not everybody and their mother-in-law flying it, like it turned out with battleships. -- 2004.12.29 23:33:40combatMining Pollution Cloud hits you, doing 140.0 damage.
Cracken	Posted - 2005.05.25 02:05:00 - [43] plz plz plz no tech 2 spec skills for xl guns thats just retarded add a separate skill which gives 5% pre lvl which allows use of xl guns of that type make it a 5x training time multiplier aka takes a while too train but not retarded amounts of it.
Hyey	Posted - 2005.05.25 04:20:00 - [44] Originally by: Sobeseki Pawi Technically BSes are capital ships too. No, no they arent. They were originally intended as such but there are 3 factors that have shreded that to nothingness. IMO Cruisers should be the mainstay of a fleet because it SHOULD be more effecient to use masses of them than masses of battleships. The three factors are as follows. 1) Easy obtainability, face it, if you want a BS all you have to do is level 4 agent *** for like 5 hours and wollah you have enough money for the BS, the equip AND the insurance. 2) Cruisers suck, nuff said. 3) Losing a battleship means nothing nowadays unless you have uber mods on, if you dont(which is often the case) you lose maybe 35mil isk in all, thats NOTHING. Maybe an hour or so of work in some cases. Those combined have turned the battleship into something you see EVERYDAY, most of us dont want dreads carriers and titans to be the same. Since money really means nothing anymore the main thing to prevent mass flying is skills. Dont give me any of this tier 1 crap, because BFS are in a different league then the ships we have now. Dreads should require BS lvl 5 at the very least, that alone chops off like 70% of the playing field from having it from the start. For kicks you might want to add another completely new skill to fly dreads thats rank 5 or so. Having dreads cost "alot" of isk is risky. Alot of isk nowdays is 10bil or so, anything lower is attainable in a stupidly short amount of time. The only barrier left is skills. ~~ Hyey** I just payed 15 dollars this month just to be able to respond on the forums... stupid cancellation error.
Sadist	Posted - 2005.05.25 05:28:00 - [45] Quote: Dreads should require BS lvl 5 at the very least, that alone chops off like 70% of the playing field from having it from the start. For kicks you might want to add another completely new skill to fly dreads thats rank 5 or so. People, who have BS 5 are a minority. No one's going to listen to their selfish whining about how they are such SP ***s, they actually can fly a dread now. Yes, and you will get the "Its tech 1" crap, because it is tech 1. Making something have limited availability and pilotability by telling 70% of the players to go ** off, and wasted 45 days on a Battleship skill, if they want to fly dreadnaughts is absurd. _______________________________________________
Sobeseki Pawi	Posted - 2005.05.25 05:29:00 - [46] Originally by: Hyey Originally by: Sobeseki Pawi Technically BSes are capital ships too. No, no they arent. They were originally intended as such but there are 3 factors that have shreded that to nothingness. IMO Cruisers should be the mainstay of a fleet because it SHOULD be more effecient to use masses of them than masses of battleships. The three factors are as follows. 1) Easy obtainability, face it, if you want a BS all you have to do is level 4 agent ***** for like 5 hours and wollah you have enough money for the BS, the equip AND the insurance. 2) Cruisers suck, nuff said. 3) Losing a battleship means nothing nowadays unless you have uber mods on, if you dont(which is often the case) you lose maybe 35mil isk in all, thats NOTHING. Maybe an hour or so of work in some cases. Those combined have turned the battleship into something you see EVERYDAY, most of us dont want dreads carriers and titans to be the same. Since money really means nothing anymore the main thing to prevent mass flying is skills. Dont give me any of this tier 1 crap, because BFS are in a different league then the ships we have now. Dreads should require BS lvl 5 at the very least, that alone chops off like 70% of the playing field from having it from the start. For kicks you might want to add another completely new skill to fly dreads thats rank 5 or so. Having dreads cost "alot" of isk is risky. Alot of isk nowdays is 10bil or so, anything lower is attainable in a stupidly short amount of time. The only barrier left is skills. So why not be consistant and redesign the existing system? Why tack on this load of skills for a tech 1 ship? I like my lvl 5 to advance to the next class plan. ~Sobe Captain Cutie, Razor's Kiss What is your Radical Dream?
Meridius	Posted - 2005.05.25 07:06:00 - [47] Originally by: Sadist Making something have limited availability and pilotability by telling 70% of the players to go **** off Wait a sec, minority? Do you actually mean if they make lvl5 bs a pre-req that there won't be a lot of Dreads out there? 1. CCP doesn't want a lot of Dreads out there 2. Does that 70% need to fly a Dreadnaught? (**** no) ________________________________________________________
Citizen Angstrom	Posted - 2005.05.25 07:13:00 - [48] This all depends on whether CCP actually want people to be flying Dreads or not. If they are aiming high, and assuming that Corps or even Alliances are going to pack no more than a handful of these things, then they have two ways of reducing their presence. One is to make it skill-intensive to fly it. BS5, Jump Drive4, 'Dreadnaught Ops'3 (skill 12 say), etcetera. The second way is to make it very expensive, say 5-10 billion Isk. 'Oh that's not much for OUR Corp' I hear you say. Consider losing a couple a day and re-think... But my hope is that since a Dread is indeed a T1 ship, with limited uses intended, CCP will want to allow them to be relatively common. By that, I mean 500-1,000 million Isk, and BS4, Jump Drive1, 'Dread Ops'1. The truly rare and all-but-impossible ships to come will be Titans, until then the Dreads and Carriers should be available to buy and fly just like BS. On a final note about Isk. CCP understand that they have allowed too much into the economy with level 4 agent missions. They are moving aggresively to reduce the amount of money that can be made from them. The missile changes are a prime example of this; don't expect to be able to make ~100 million Isk in an evening any more... if you ever could (lots of 0.0 whiners assume that empire carebears just press a button and see Isk flowing in endlessly...)
General Murder	Posted - 2005.05.25 07:14:00 - [49] Lower the insurance on dreads (max. 50%) or make them non-insurable. Problem is solved. Make the same with BS problem solved.
Loka	Posted - 2005.05.25 08:01:00 - [50] I dont think lvl 5 BS is necessary here. Most here are right. Its an upgrade of the BS, like the BS was for the cruiser. Its Tech 1 and therefore - Spacecommand lvl 5 - BS lvl 4 - Jump Drive lvl 1 Thats even one more skill than any other Tech 1 ship! You say everyone will fly it ... cool let them fly it. They will loose lot of money and without enough skillpoints its just a huge something. Iam pretty sure it will cost around ~300 mil to produce one. Which means platinum insurance will be ~100 mil. Now you will setup it with another 50mil easily and here you ahve your loss. If loosing 150 mil each gank means nothing for you, than you should loose a few till it means something for you. Noobs in BS are atm not a threat at all, same will be for noobs in Dreads. Yeah cool big miner probably nothing more nothing less. I doubt you will be usefull in a dread below 6mil sp. And even then you normaly wont have the money to buy one, except your are sponsored. Also if XLarge guns will have that problem to hit smaller targets that my large guns have, than Cruiser will almost be infincible and frigates will be invincible. So Noobs flying alone in Dread = gankfest. _____________________________________ Dead or Alive
Jonsemann	Posted - 2005.05.25 08:24:00 - [51] this is what i think(for caldari one) Caldari Frigate lvl4 Caldari Cruiser lvl4 Caldari BAttleship lvl4 Caldari Dreadnaught lvl4 --------------------------------------- (\_/) (O.o) (> <) This is Bunny. Copy Bunny into your signature to help him on his way to world domination.
Renox	Posted - 2005.05.25 08:25:00 - [52] Personally I think that it would be fitting for the dread to require Battleship at level 5. It is supposed to be the biggest and baddest combat ship ever and as such I see no harm in it being "restricted" to the combat specialised pilots. As it is possible to obtain BS lvl 4 in just a week or two of training that can hardly be called specialization compared to the 30 odd days it takes for bs lvl 5. As it is in the skills you take to level 5 you show where you want to go. It should be the same with the other capital ships. The freighters should be restricted to the dedicated industrials with indi lvl 5, carriers should have Drone interfacing lvl 5 ect... IMO it is not a bad thing to be required to specialize when you want to fly the biggest and baddest ship in your "profession" " While Celestial Apoc is filled with smack talking, safespot hugging, gate cudling, empire war exploiting
Alazais	Posted - 2005.05.25 08:35:00 - [53] Well... CCP had to make a choice, either they make it requiring level 4 skills and people will hop into them within a couple of weeks, and soon after that every man and his dog will own one. Or make them really difficult to get into (multiple level 5 skills) in which case 6-8 months down the road you'll still have a lot of people in them. There is nothing you can do about that, a lot of people will get them eventually, only difference is how long till you get there. Imo they should take flipping ages to be able to fly one, simply because for the 6 months before everyone actually has one, when one appears in a battle it'll turn the tide. My only concern is for the newer players, if a corp with a couple of Dreadnaught pilots declares war on an empire corp of 3-5 month old characters... do they have to train for 8 months just to fight back? answer = make them stupidly hard to obtain.
Nicholai Pestot	Posted - 2005.05.25 09:19:00 - [54] Originally by: Alazais My only concern is for the newer players, if a corp with a couple of Dreadnaught pilots declares war on an empire corp of 3-5 month old characters... do they have to train for 8 months just to fight back? Well unless that noob corp has multiple POS and are all flying BS's i doubt a dread will be able to hit most of their assets. From the look of the Amarrian Dreadnought it only has three turret highslots. XL weapons wont hit anything smaller than a BS, and 3 L guns are not that much of a worry even for a team of 2 or 3 month old players. I have supped the milk of human kindness, and discovered i am lactose intolerant
Nifel	Posted - 2005.05.25 09:36:00 - [55] While I'm not really against the skills requirements being high I don't see it as anything but delaying the time it takes for everyone and their mother to fly one. There should be other reasons as to why you wouldn't want to fly one and the insta-nerf should fix half of this. No support where you go and you're screwed ^^. It'll also probably cost quite a bit to lose one since the insurance won't cover what the actual price will be (lots of low end minerals that costs ****loads vs base payout value based on base mineral prices). "We wield swords for the sound of laughter that used to be there long ago."
Loka	Posted - 2005.05.25 09:46:00 - [56] Hmm you dont really read my post do you? Owning a Dread is not the same as been capable to fight effective in one. Tbh i dont care how many ppl would own one, but it would get dust in their hanger. Because they either dont have enough skills to use it effective or dont have the spare isk to replace its loss. Thats my view on this matter. At the end of the day isk makes a ship uncommon, not the SP. I have 18mil sp in combat related skills and still iam not flying all day HAC¦s. Why? Not because i dont have enough SP to use one effective enough, but the 120 mil isk loss is something i cant effort every day. ISK guys ISK not Skillpoints make a ship something special. _____________________________________ Dead or Alive
Nero Scuro	Posted - 2005.05.25 09:56:00 - [57] Can't be bothered to read all this thread but... Originally by: Elve Sorrow Lots of skills to use Dreads = good Lots of ISK to buy Dreads = bad ...that's a REAL bad idea. Everyone is always accumulating SP. Eventually, everyone will have the SP to fly Dreads. With ISK, once you spend it it's gone, so that discourages every monkey from flying one. But high skill requirements are good too, so long as they cost lots. ---------------- Haha, stupid monkey! Now I'VE got the Oscar! Enjoy your worthless gun!
Nero Scuro	Posted - 2005.05.25 09:56:00 - [58] Quote: From the look of the Amarrian Dreadnought it only has three turret highslots. XL weapons wont hit anything smaller than a BS, and 3 L guns are not that much of a worry even for a team of 2 or 3 month old players. 6. 3 on each side. ;P ---------------- Haha, stupid monkey! Now I'VE got the Oscar! Enjoy your worthless gun!
Darkwolf	Posted - 2005.05.25 10:13:00 - [59] Originally by: Nero Scuro 6. 3 on each side. ;P Turrets are always duplicated on opposite sides of a ship. Notice how a 3-turret Rifter gets six actual turrets on its body.
Discorporation	Posted - 2005.05.25 10:17:00 - [60] You assume it can target non-ships when in siege mode [Heterocephalus glaber]

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