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Roderick Grey
Assisted Genocide Black Legion.
191
|
Posted - 2013.01.01 07:34:00 -
[1] - Quote
Having to run from ratting tengus and drakes because the rats have switched to you is a terrible feeling.
I think CCP should change the aggression mechanics so that players attacking them take priority over others. I mean, how is attacking the ship that's killing the ship that's attacking you make any sense?
I think CCP should make it the mechanics work like this:
A drake warps into a belt and gains priority 2 aggression from the rats.
The drake attacks one of the rats granting it priority 1 aggression.
The drake gets it's drones out and attacks a frigate rat with them, the drones now have priority 1 aggression aswell, allowing NPC AI to switch in-between their desired targets.
A Cynabal enters the belt and attacks the Drake and gains priority 2 aggression from the rats.
The rats continue attacking the drake, as the drake has type 1 aggression.
The drake dies, the rats switch to the Cynabal as there are no priority 1 targets on field. |
Kestrix
Industrial Renaissance MinTek Conglomerate
50
|
Posted - 2013.01.01 09:32:00 -
[2] - Quote
LOL Pvp'er chased off by mission rats...
You do realise that the rats switch to you because your the biggest threat. There is not a first come first served system in combat .
You are working off the philosophy that the enemy of my enemy is my friend and it's not true. Ether bring a ship with a bigger tank or choose another profession :)
Edit: Sorry thought I was in GD then... that's an interesting idea but I'll have to give this one the thumbs down. |
Destination SkillQueue
Are We There Yet
3769
|
Posted - 2013.01.01 09:35:00 -
[3] - Quote
Seems like the cynabal would be the sweeter kill with an inferior tank, so it could just as well be the primary target for any sensible NPC AI in that situation. Having NPCs switch targets in general also makes sense from a PvP perspective. If they don't do that, the game is making the situation of the already disadvantaged PVE fitted player practically impossible. It would amount to serving free kills to every PvP player who enters the field, since they only needed to tip the fight balance slightly to ensure the kill. The target switching just makes the initial circumstances somewhat equal for both parties. |
Paikis
Vapour Holdings
517
|
Posted - 2013.01.01 10:11:00 -
[4] - Quote
The NPC rats will chose to swap to the attacker every time though, due to their hate of EWAR (scram+web). The Tengu could have been in that site killing NPCs for half an hour, and the second you turn a scram on, the rats will swap to you.
This could maybe use some tweaking. Perhaps make scrams and webs, or even just long points immune to this kind of hate?
Can't hold your target down without a point. Using a point will guarantee you get agro 100% of the time.
Seems to actively discourage ganking. |
Roderick Grey
Assisted Genocide Black Legion.
191
|
Posted - 2013.01.01 11:06:00 -
[5] - Quote
Destination SkillQueue wrote:Seems like the cynabal would be the sweeter kill with an inferior tank, so it could just as well be the primary target for any sensible NPC AI in that situation. Having NPCs switch targets in general also makes sense from a PvP perspective. If they don't do that, the game is making the situation of the already disadvantaged PVE fitted player practically impossible. It would amount to serving free kills to every PvP player who enters the field, since they only needed to tip the fight balance slightly to ensure the kill. The target switching just makes the initial circumstances somewhat equal for both parties.
Do you know how NPC AI works? |
Vladimir Norkoff
Income Redistribution Service
71
|
Posted - 2013.01.01 12:18:00 -
[6] - Quote
Roderick Grey wrote:Having to run from ratting tengus and drakes because the rats have switched to you is a terrible feeling. LOL Imagine how the tengu/drake pilot used to feel getting jacked by both rats and some douchebag trying to kill them. Kinda evens the odds nowdays. What you should be asking for is a change to the missions and rats. Make missions require an omni-tank, make it so you have to fit a disruptor for NPCs otherwise they warp out when heavily damaged, etc. So both sides get an equal chance for rat aggro, and you can have a target that can theoretically pose a threat... 'Course that is about as likely to happen as CCP rolling back the new rat AI.
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Tiger Armani
Mialto Corp The Last Chancers.
20
|
Posted - 2013.01.01 12:39:00 -
[7] - Quote
So gankers are crying about not able to handle NPC aggro. LOL
So, you think it is fair that mission tengu should tank NPC aggro and your dps?
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Roderick Grey
Assisted Genocide Black Legion.
191
|
Posted - 2013.01.01 14:00:00 -
[8] - Quote
Vladimir Norkoff wrote:Roderick Grey wrote:Having to run from ratting tengus and drakes because the rats have switched to you is a terrible feeling. LOL Imagine how the tengu/drake pilot used to feel getting jacked by both rats and some douchebag trying to kill them. Kinda evens the odds nowdays. What you should be asking for is a change to the missions and rats. Make missions require an omni-tank, make it so you have to fit a disruptor for NPCs otherwise they warp out when heavily damaged, etc. So both sides get an equal chance for rat aggro, and you can have a target that can theoretically pose a threat... 'Course that is about as likely to happen as CCP rolling back the new rat AI.
I'm going to ignore this.
Tiger Armani wrote:So gankers are crying about not able to handle NPC aggro. LOL
So, you think it is fair that mission tengu should tank NPC aggro and your dps?
I'm not talking about missioning Tengus, I'm talking about nullsec.
But yeah, if the tengu pilot is too stupid to align and too stupid to check local, he should be fair game for another player. |
sabre906
Old Spice Syndicate Sailors of the Sacred Spice
530
|
Posted - 2013.01.01 16:03:00 -
[9] - Quote
Paikis wrote:The NPC rats will chose to swap to the attacker every time though, due to their hate of EWAR (scram+web). The Tengu could have been in that site killing NPCs for half an hour, and the second you turn a scram on, the rats will swap to you.
This could maybe use some tweaking. Perhaps make scrams and webs, or even just long points immune to this kind of hate?
Can't hold your target down without a point. Using a point will guarantee you get agro 100% of the time.
Seems to actively discourage ganking.
Then stop using EWAR (scram+web), problem solved. Your opponent isn't, why are you? Standings Improvement Service https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=19454 |
Tiger Armani
Mialto Corp The Last Chancers.
21
|
Posted - 2013.01.01 18:13:00 -
[10] - Quote
Tiger Armani wrote:So gankers are crying about not able to handle NPC aggro. LOL
So, you think it is fair that mission tengu should tank NPC aggro and your dps?
I'm not talking about missioning Tengus, I'm talking about nullsec.
But yeah, if the tengu pilot is too stupid to align and too stupid to check local, he should be fair game for another player.[/quote]
Care to explain how it is not fair?
You both have to tank NPC dps and your enemies' dps. Fair and square.
Try to attack C5/C6 cap escalation pve players with 10 sleeper guardians. Come back after that. Live in WH for few years without local and sleeper NPC AI. After that LS and NS is easy peacy...
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Roderick Grey
Assisted Genocide Black Legion.
194
|
Posted - 2013.01.02 04:26:00 -
[11] - Quote
Tiger Armani wrote:Quote: I'm not talking about missioning Tengus, I'm talking about nullsec.
But yeah, if the tengu pilot is too stupid to align and too stupid to check local, he should be fair game for another player.
Care to explain how it is not fair? You both have to tank NPC dps and your enemies' dps. Fair and square. Try to attack C5/C6 cap escalation pve players with 10 sleeper guardians at the site. Come back after that. Live in WH for few years without local and sleeper NPC AI. After that LS and NS is easy peacy...
I never said it wasn't fair, technically it is, except there's an extremely diminished risk/reward ratio.
The ratter only has to check local, intel, corp or alliance for me to be unable to catch him in the first place, why should rats assist him ontop of that?
Wormhole space isn't Nullsec, don't compare the two. |
Vladimir Norkoff
Income Redistribution Service
71
|
Posted - 2013.01.02 04:59:00 -
[12] - Quote
Roderick Grey wrote:...except there's an extremely diminished risk/reward ratio. Well "diminished" is a bit of an understatement when it was ALL reward and no risk previously. Seriously, before the AI change if you caught a ratter or missioner he was dead - end of story (unless it was a tarp). Now it's a bit more of a fight. You'll just have to bring a ship with a bit more tank of whatever version you fancy. Though as you already pointed out, these are people who are too stupid to align, watch local, and/or pay attention to intel, so really it shouldn't be THAT much trouble to kill them while tanking rats. Odds are they're not gonna be PvP geniuses.
In all honesty, I don't think you're gonna get alot of sympathy. Most of us have done our share of hunting ratters and recognize it was pretty effortless ganking. Granted if I still made that my hobby I'd probably be upset as well. Hell the Crimewatch changes messed up my favorite pastime. Not happy, but the changes do level the. Much like the new AI does. Just gotta adapt with the changes.
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Juan Thang
Old American Syndicate Silent Infinity
0
|
Posted - 2013.01.03 05:40:00 -
[13] - Quote
This is almost like me complaining about afk campers.... But you complaining that your ship designed to kill ships cannot, so please fit your ship better... This is the equivalent of saying I like ratting... can you make it so that the NPC's target the structures on grid before me? |
Roderick Grey
Assisted Genocide Black Legion.
195
|
Posted - 2013.01.03 08:57:00 -
[14] - Quote
Vladimir Norkoff wrote:Roderick Grey wrote:...except there's an extremely diminished risk/reward ratio. Well "diminished" is a bit of an understatement when it was ALL reward and no risk previously. Seriously, before the AI change if you caught a ratter or missioner he was dead - end of story (unless it was a tarp). Now it's a bit more of a fight. You'll just have to bring a ship with a bit more tank of whatever version you fancy. Though as you already pointed out, these are people who are too stupid to align, watch local, and/or pay attention to intel, so really it shouldn't be THAT much trouble to kill them while tanking rats. Odds are they're not gonna be PvP geniuses. In all honesty, I don't think you're gonna get alot of sympathy. Most of us have done our share of hunting ratters and recognize it was pretty effortless ganking. Granted if I still made that my hobby I'd probably be upset as well. Hell the Crimewatch changes messed up my favorite pastime. Not happy, but the changes do level the. Much like the new AI does. Just gotta adapt with the changes.
How is it all risk no reward?
What is wrong with you? |
Vladimir Norkoff
Income Redistribution Service
71
|
Posted - 2013.01.03 14:04:00 -
[15] - Quote
Roderick Grey wrote:How is it all risk no reward?
What is wrong with you? .... Okay. In addition to working on those basic ship fits and tanking skills, ya might wanna brush up on your reading comprehension as well. Just an idea. |
Kitt JT
League of Non-Aligned Worlds Nulli Secunda
169
|
Posted - 2013.01.03 19:00:00 -
[16] - Quote
This thread has so much fail. From both sides. |
sabre906
Old Spice Syndicate Sailors of the Sacred Spice
536
|
Posted - 2013.01.03 19:03:00 -
[17] - Quote
Kitt JT wrote:This thread has so much fail. From both sides.
Nope, the fail originates from one side. Standings Improvement Service https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=19454 |
Roderick Grey
Assisted Genocide Black Legion.
196
|
Posted - 2013.01.03 22:16:00 -
[18] - Quote
Vladimir Norkoff wrote:Roderick Grey wrote:How is it all risk no reward?
What is wrong with you? .... Okay. In addition to working on those basic ship fits and tanking skills, ya might wanna brush up on your reading comprehension as well. Just an idea.
I'm talking about from the ratter's POV you neanderthal. |
Aunt Tom
Dark Voodoo Cult The Gorgon Empire
2
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 10:41:00 -
[19] - Quote
/signed
Now ratters in 0.0 space are very well protected by NPC. So NPC are guarding their killers :(
May be the better choice will be to apply current aggro-transfer mechanisms to the NPC-aggro (so that NPC won't chase ships which not attack them and not helping others to attack them?) |
Asuka Solo
Stark Fujikawa Stark Enterprises
2209
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 10:47:00 -
[20] - Quote
Nothing wrong with NPCs primarying e-war, just like players would.
Solo PvPers should adapt or go play hello-kitty online. Eve is about Capital ships, WiS, Boobs, PI and Isk! |
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Aunt Tom
Dark Voodoo Cult The Gorgon Empire
2
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 11:00:00 -
[21] - Quote
Asuka Solo wrote:Solo PvPers should adapt or go play hello-kitty online. Not a big problem, 'cource
But then we need a new back-story from CCP about NPC. I already have a name for it: 'Love to be killed'
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Asuka Solo
Stark Fujikawa Stark Enterprises
2209
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 11:06:00 -
[22] - Quote
Roderick Grey wrote:
But yeah, if the tengu pilot is too stupid to align and too stupid to check local, he should be fair game for another player.
And if your stupid enough to use e-war on a player who is engaging rats, your ass is fair game for NPCs.
Working as intended.
Eve is about Capital ships, WiS, Boobs, PI and Isk! |
seth Hendar
I love you miners
1
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 11:08:00 -
[23] - Quote
while i don't agree with OP, i still think something is not working as intended with the new AI.
the aggro mechanics seems to work odd.
i ran a couple missions last weekend with a few friends (no one warped out in the following sequence).
1- legion warpin and take full agrro and stuf...
2- then a Macha warp in, instan full aggro even without aggressing (why not, after all at that moment it is the biggest DPS on field)
3- a drake warp in => instant full aggro (even if he didn't aggressed at all)
4- a myrmydon warp in, instant full aggro, same as the drake.
done 5 missions with different NPC rat (sanshas, angel, guristas, mercs), same behaviour 100%, no ewar involved at any moment.
from our point of view, it seems that whatever warps in, the last to warpin WILL take full aggro for at least 1 to 2 minutes, regardless of the "threat" it represent to the npcs.
after this delay passed, the ship drawing most of the aggro seems random, and not related to its tank or dps ability.
i'm not sure this is the behaviour intended |
Davader
Space Cleaners The Gorgon Empire
34
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 11:32:00 -
[24] - Quote
Agree with TS, CCP have to fix their fail with aggro switching. If a stealth bomber decloacks over ratting BS or BC, the NPC shouldn't all aggro on the bomber, leaving the carebear alone - that's definately wrong logic in aggro mechanics. |
Roderick Grey
Assisted Genocide Black Legion.
216
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 11:37:00 -
[25] - Quote
Asuka Solo wrote:Roderick Grey wrote:
But yeah, if the tengu pilot is too stupid to align and too stupid to check local, he should be fair game for another player.
And if your stupid enough to use e-war on a player who is engaging rats, your ass is fair game for NPCs. Working as intended.
So if I warp disrupt a playing who's aligning to warp out in his tengu I'm an idiot?
Your logic astounds me GÇ£We could learn a lot from crayons; some are sharp, some are pretty, some are dull, while others bright, some have weird names, but they all have learned to live together in the same box.GÇ¥- Special needs division of Fcon. |
Roderick Grey
Assisted Genocide Black Legion.
218
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 12:38:00 -
[26] - Quote
Asuka Solo wrote:Nothing wrong with NPCs primarying e-war, just like players would.
Solo PvPers should adapt or go play hello-kitty online.
See relating to the logic of a real player in your arguement is a moot case, because no player in his right mind would attack the player that's actually saving him from another regardless of ewar. GÇ£We could learn a lot from crayons; some are sharp, some are pretty, some are dull, while others bright, some have weird names, but they all have learned to live together in the same box.GÇ¥- Special needs division of Fcon. |
Sinigr Shadowsong
War Tactical Groups SOLAR FLEET
37
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Posted - 2013.01.21 12:48:00 -
[27] - Quote
Asuka Solo wrote:Nothing wrong with NPCs primarying e-war, just like players would.
Solo PvPers should adapt or go play hello-kitty online.
Oblivious solo-farmers became even more protected in a game that supposed to punish for oscitancy. Lowering conseqences for being air-headed mindless farmer is the thing that moves Eve toward your lovely hello-kitty online. |
Bobbechk
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
29
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 13:13:00 -
[28] - Quote
Asuka Solo wrote:Nothing wrong with NPCs primarying e-war, just like players would.
Solo PvPers should adapt or go play hello-kitty online.
Sure lemme just fit this cyno and watch you cry about being dropped by a carrier instead |
Alx Warlord
SUPERNOVA SOCIETY Tribal Conclave
347
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 14:13:00 -
[29] - Quote
Roderick Grey wrote:Asuka Solo wrote:Nothing wrong with NPCs primarying e-war, just like players would.
Solo PvPers should adapt or go play hello-kitty online. See relating to the logic of a real player in your arguement is a moot case, because no player in his right mind would attack the player that's actually saving him from another regardless of ewar.
That is not True, go on sisi, and try to use logistics help on someone, everyone will shot you, including the one that you are helping.
Also the rats will shot you because you are trying to steal their kill bounty ( over the player that they hope that they can kill)... Furthermore they think that they are as good as capsulers now.... so...
Change your profession... go mine in Hi-sec. Please read this! > New POS system (Block Built) Please read this! > Refining and Reprocess Revamp |
Asuka Solo
Stark Fujikawa Stark Enterprises
2212
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 15:06:00 -
[30] - Quote
Roderick Grey wrote:Asuka Solo wrote:Roderick Grey wrote:
But yeah, if the tengu pilot is too stupid to align and too stupid to check local, he should be fair game for another player.
And if your stupid enough to use e-war on a player who is engaging rats, your ass is fair game for NPCs. Working as intended. So if I warp disrupt a player who's aligning to warp out in his tengu I'm an idiot? Your logic astounds me
No, that would just set you up for a gank.
But if you do it in front of rats who your would be victim was engaging until he spotted you a few seconds prior... then your an idiot and those NPCs have just as much claim to your wreck as you do to your victims...
Eve is about Capital ships, WiS, Boobs, PI and Isk! |
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Asuka Solo
Stark Fujikawa Stark Enterprises
2212
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 15:10:00 -
[31] - Quote
Sinigr Shadowsong wrote:Asuka Solo wrote:Nothing wrong with NPCs primarying e-war, just like players would.
Solo PvPers should adapt or go play hello-kitty online. Oblivious solo-farmers became even more protected in a game that supposed to punish for oscitancy. Lowering conseqences for being air-headed mindless farmer is the thing that moves Eve toward your lovely hello-kitty online.
So explain to me how tackling a pretty helpless site running fit ship with all tank and no gank, does not make site gankers mindless killmail farmers who deserve to be punished for their oscitancy when not paying attention to the threats that are supposed to be the NPCs around them?
Eve is about Capital ships, WiS, Boobs, PI and Isk! |
Asuka Solo
Stark Fujikawa Stark Enterprises
2212
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 15:15:00 -
[32] - Quote
Bobbechk wrote:Asuka Solo wrote:Nothing wrong with NPCs primarying e-war, just like players would.
Solo PvPers should adapt or go play hello-kitty online. Sure lemme just fit this cyno and watch you cry about being dropped by a carrier instead
Lol... I fully endorse hotdropping.
Survival of the richest.
Eve is about Capital ships, WiS, Boobs, PI and Isk! |
Roderick Grey
Assisted Genocide Black Legion.
223
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 23:57:00 -
[33] - Quote
Alx Warlord wrote:Roderick Grey wrote:Asuka Solo wrote:Nothing wrong with NPCs primarying e-war, just like players would.
Solo PvPers should adapt or go play hello-kitty online. See relating to the logic of a real player in your arguement is a moot case, because no player in his right mind would attack the player that's actually saving him from another regardless of ewar. That is not True, go on sisi, and try to use logistics help on someone, everyone will shot you, including the one that you are helping. Also the rats will shot you because you are trying to steal their kill bounty ( over the player that they hope that they can kill)... Furthermore they think that they are as good as capsulers now.... so... Change your profession... go mine in Hi-sec.
I hate to break it to you but the way people act on sisi isn't the same as how they act on the actual server.
Are you trying to be an NPC psychologist or something? Because you're not good at it.
Asuka Solo wrote: No, that would just set you up for a gank.
But if you do it in front of rats who your would be victim was engaging until he spotted you a few seconds prior... then your an idiot and those NPCs have just as much claim to your wreck as you do to your victims...
Okay so if you want to prevent a player from escaping then you think that it's entirely logical for ALL NPCs to switch to you aswell as your target simply because ewar was used?
Asuka Solo wrote: So explain to me how tackling a pretty helpless site running fit ship with all tank and no gank, does not make site gankers mindless killmail farmers who deserve to be punished for their oscitancy when not paying attention to the threats that are supposed to be the NPCs around them?
This comment shows me how little you understand nullsec.
1. Ratting ships fit as minimal tank as possible as dps/"gank" = killing rats faster, which in turn = more isk/hour.
2. In order for a ganker to get into the target's anom they'd need to burn through hostile nullsec, where he would be reported in intel so anyone reading would know that they need to dock up, then he would need to enter system and scan for anoms which takes exactly 10 seconds, plenty of time for the ratter to realize that there's a hostile in local and warp out, he then has to actually find which anom his target is in, best case scenario it's in the first one he warps to which still gives his target time to leave whilst he's in warp, and FINALLY he enters grid with his target which would be over 20kms away and will require him to burn to his target, giving them even more time to leave.
The fact that they've had all this time to escape and they haven't shows that they need to get punished, and shouldn't be defended by the very NPCs they make money off.
3. I'm not complaining about pvp ships dying to rats I'm complaining about NPC AI targeting pvp ships over ratting ships, if a player is unaware that NPCs have switched to him AFTER he kills his target then of course he deserves it as he wasn't paying attention, however I'm well aware of the NPCs, which is why I'm here. GÇ£We could learn a lot from crayons; some are sharp, some are pretty, some are dull, while others bright, some have weird names, but they all have learned to live together in the same box.GÇ¥- Special needs division of Fcon. |
Sheala de'Tancarville
Ihilakken Research
0
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 00:54:00 -
[34] - Quote
Roderick Grey wrote: then he would need to enter system and scan for anoms which takes exactly 10 seconds, plenty of time for the ratter to realize that there's a hostile in local and warp out.
You forgot another "tiny detail" being that you show up on local 10 secs BEFORE you load system. Then you do system scan and that's WHOLE 20 secs before you can even start warping to anomaly.
On top of that, since few month back we have another feature that makes your local list blink while there's someone enters/leave local - all you need to is to keep your cursor on the list.
Bottom line, 0.0 is getting safer and safer and that's exactly NOT how it's supposed to be.
And for all those "adapt or die" idiots - unless CCP change NPCing dramatically, there will be PvE ships and PvP ships (fittings). If you show up on CTA in your ratting ship, you'll get laughed of. The same applies to demands that a PvP fitted ship should able to tank rats because it's NOT DOABLE.
It will be either tanky, but to slow to catch anything (and die to gate camp in a process), to fast enough, but instawtfbbq'd by rats. Been there done that.
So yeah, CCP, way to help roamers. Blobs aren't everything in this game, y'know?
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Freyja Asynjur
Folkvangr Unknown Phenomena
8
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 01:09:00 -
[35] - Quote
Roderick Grey wrote: I think CCP should change the aggression mechanics so that players attacking them take priority over others. I mean, how is attacking the ship that's killing the ship that's attacking you make any sense?
It's what was actually promised by CCP.
And I all agree with you, the current AI is just stupid beyond imagination. Before, NPCs had no AI and were predictable, now they have AI and are dumb as ****. And still predictable for the the griefi... fine npc-friendly ship: you arrive, draw aggro from *all* NPCs in a second, then you can go to the end of the grid without them ever de-aggro'ing, even if they have no chance of hitting you, and you have never actually fired on them, and they are getting pounded hard by heavy PVE ships 2km away from them. https://twitter.com/folkvangrcorp GÇö Freyja's space log. |
Roderick Grey
Assisted Genocide Black Legion.
224
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 04:15:00 -
[36] - Quote
Kestrix wrote:LOL Pvp'er chased off by mission rats...
You do realise that the rats switch to you because your the biggest threat. There is not a first come first served system in combat .
You need to read up on NPC AI. GÇ£We could learn a lot from crayons; some are sharp, some are pretty, some are dull, while others bright, some have weird names, but they all have learned to live together in the same box.GÇ¥- Special needs division of Fcon. |
Juan Thang
Old American Syndicate Silent Infinity
5
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 06:52:00 -
[37] - Quote
seth Hendar wrote:while i don't agree with OP, i still think something is not working as intended with the new AI.
the aggro mechanics seems to work odd.
i ran a couple missions last weekend with a few friends (no one warped out in the following sequence).
1- legion warpin and take full agrro and stuf...
2- then a Macha warp in, instan full aggro even without aggressing (why not, after all at that moment it is the biggest DPS on field)
3- a drake warp in => instant full aggro (even if he didn't aggressed at all)
4- a myrmydon warp in, instant full aggro, same as the drake.
done 5 missions with different NPC rat (sanshas, angel, guristas, mercs), same behaviour 100%, no ewar involved at any moment.
from our point of view, it seems that whatever warps in, the last to warpin WILL take full aggro for at least 1 to 2 minutes, regardless of the "threat" it represent to the npcs.
after this delay passed, the ship drawing most of the aggro seems random, and not related to its tank or dps ability.
i'm not sure this is the behaviour intended
I belive this from the NPC point of view:
Oh weve been shooting these guys a while and were not breaking theyre tank, OH new target lets test that ones tank.
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Asuka Solo
Stark Fujikawa Stark Enterprises
2218
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 07:06:00 -
[38] - Quote
Roderick Grey wrote:Asuka Solo wrote: No, that would just set you up for a gank.
But if you do it in front of rats who your would be victim was engaging until he spotted you a few seconds prior... then your an idiot and those NPCs have just as much claim to your wreck as you do to your victims...
Okay so if you want to prevent a player from escaping then you think that it's entirely logical for ALL NPCs to switch to you aswell as your target simply because ewar was used?
You sit cloaked within tackle range and wait for him to clear the site so the rats don't grab you in the process. You grab him before he warps out seeing as you will see him "align" or take out the last rat.
Too much logic for you to compute it seems.
Roderick Grey wrote:Asuka Solo wrote: So explain to me how tackling a pretty helpless site running fit ship with all tank and no gank, does not make site gankers mindless killmail farmers who deserve to be punished for their oscitancy when not paying attention to the threats that are supposed to be the NPCs around them?
This comment shows me how little you understand nullsec. More try-hard stuff in an attempt to make poster sound knowledgeable.
I've been screwing around nullsec since 07, long before you came into the picture. Try again. Eve is about Capital ships, WiS, Boobs, PI and Isk! |
Roderick Grey
Assisted Genocide Black Legion.
226
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 07:58:00 -
[39] - Quote
Asuka Solo wrote:Roderick Grey wrote:
Okay so if you want to prevent a player from escaping then you think that it's entirely logical for ALL NPCs to switch to you aswell as your target simply because ewar was used?
You sit cloaked within tackle range and wait for him to clear the site so the rats don't grab you in the process. You grab him before he warps out seeing as you will see him "align" or take out the last rat. Too much logic for you to compute it seems. Asuka Solo wrote: More try-hard stuff in an attempt to make poster sound knowledgeable.
Okay I see what's happened here. Perhaps instead of dismissing my breakdown of a roaming ganker as "try-hard stuff" you should give it a read and understand that Cloaky camping and roaming hostile space is not the same thing.
Cloaky camping/black ops involves hours/days/weeks of patience whilst constantly being logged in.
I'm talking about one guy fitting up a ship and going for a roam, y'know something that you can do for an hour or two instead of days on end.
It's great that you've added your input but cloaky camping isn't really relevant to what's being discussed, I know I said "Solo pvp" but it's quite clear that I'm discussing how NPC AI is affecting one type of ganking in particular.
GÇ£We could learn a lot from crayons; some are sharp, some are pretty, some are dull, while others bright, some have weird names, but they all have learned to live together in the same box.GÇ¥- Special needs division of Fcon. |
Roderick Grey
Assisted Genocide Black Legion.
226
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 08:01:00 -
[40] - Quote
Juan Thang wrote:seth Hendar wrote:while i don't agree with OP, i still think something is not working as intended with the new AI.
the aggro mechanics seems to work odd.
i ran a couple missions last weekend with a few friends (no one warped out in the following sequence).
1- legion warpin and take full agrro and stuf...
2- then a Macha warp in, instan full aggro even without aggressing (why not, after all at that moment it is the biggest DPS on field)
3- a drake warp in => instant full aggro (even if he didn't aggressed at all)
4- a myrmydon warp in, instant full aggro, same as the drake.
done 5 missions with different NPC rat (sanshas, angel, guristas, mercs), same behaviour 100%, no ewar involved at any moment.
from our point of view, it seems that whatever warps in, the last to warpin WILL take full aggro for at least 1 to 2 minutes, regardless of the "threat" it represent to the npcs.
after this delay passed, the ship drawing most of the aggro seems random, and not related to its tank or dps ability.
i'm not sure this is the behaviour intended I belive this from the NPC point of view: Oh weve been shooting these guys a while and were not breaking theyre tank, OH new target lets test that ones tank.
Well no actually, because the second you're on grid they'll be a noticeable difference on their current target's ability to tank.
GÇ£We could learn a lot from crayons; some are sharp, some are pretty, some are dull, while others bright, some have weird names, but they all have learned to live together in the same box.GÇ¥- Special needs division of Fcon. |
|
Juan Thang
Old American Syndicate Silent Infinity
5
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 08:52:00 -
[41] - Quote
Roderick Grey wrote:Juan Thang wrote:seth Hendar wrote:while i don't agree with OP, i still think something is not working as intended with the new AI.
the aggro mechanics seems to work odd.
i ran a couple missions last weekend with a few friends (no one warped out in the following sequence).
1- legion warpin and take full agrro and stuf...
2- then a Macha warp in, instan full aggro even without aggressing (why not, after all at that moment it is the biggest DPS on field)
3- a drake warp in => instant full aggro (even if he didn't aggressed at all)
4- a myrmydon warp in, instant full aggro, same as the drake.
done 5 missions with different NPC rat (sanshas, angel, guristas, mercs), same behaviour 100%, no ewar involved at any moment.
from our point of view, it seems that whatever warps in, the last to warpin WILL take full aggro for at least 1 to 2 minutes, regardless of the "threat" it represent to the npcs.
after this delay passed, the ship drawing most of the aggro seems random, and not related to its tank or dps ability.
i'm not sure this is the behaviour intended I belive this from the NPC point of view: Oh weve been shooting these guys a while and were not breaking theyre tank, OH new target lets test that ones tank. Well no actually, because the second you're on grid they'll be a noticeable difference on their current target's ability to tank.
Are you saying that the more ships you have on grid the more dps the rats do? or that the ships will be shooting them so the dps is reduced?
|
Roderick Grey
Assisted Genocide Black Legion.
226
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 08:54:00 -
[42] - Quote
Juan Thang wrote:Roderick Grey wrote:Juan Thang wrote:seth Hendar wrote:while i don't agree with OP, i still think something is not working as intended with the new AI.
the aggro mechanics seems to work odd.
i ran a couple missions last weekend with a few friends (no one warped out in the following sequence).
1- legion warpin and take full agrro and stuf...
2- then a Macha warp in, instan full aggro even without aggressing (why not, after all at that moment it is the biggest DPS on field)
3- a drake warp in => instant full aggro (even if he didn't aggressed at all)
4- a myrmydon warp in, instant full aggro, same as the drake.
done 5 missions with different NPC rat (sanshas, angel, guristas, mercs), same behaviour 100%, no ewar involved at any moment.
from our point of view, it seems that whatever warps in, the last to warpin WILL take full aggro for at least 1 to 2 minutes, regardless of the "threat" it represent to the npcs.
after this delay passed, the ship drawing most of the aggro seems random, and not related to its tank or dps ability.
i'm not sure this is the behaviour intended I belive this from the NPC point of view: Oh weve been shooting these guys a while and were not breaking theyre tank, OH new target lets test that ones tank. Well no actually, because the second you're on grid they'll be a noticeable difference on their current target's ability to tank. Are you saying that the more ships you have on grid the more dps the rats do? or that the ships will be shooting them so the dps is reduced?
Whoops sorry I thought it was in relation to a third party warping in, ignore me.
GÇ£We could learn a lot from crayons; some are sharp, some are pretty, some are dull, while others bright, some have weird names, but they all have learned to live together in the same box.GÇ¥- Special needs division of Fcon. |
Ueberlisk
The Hatchery Team Liquid
32
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 10:41:00 -
[43] - Quote
I'd like to add that nowdays it's impossible to go take down or harass carriers doing lvl 5s as solo player. The moment you land on grid, every npc on the field switches to you regardless of your ship type. Its one piece of this game that was really fun to do that is ruined by npc AI. Carebearetribution. |
Cyen Faye
State War Academy Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 11:18:00 -
[44] - Quote
It really doesn't make much sense. NPCs should not just be after the easier kill, they should mainly be out to save their own lives.
Meaning that people attacking them actively should most certainly be a higher priority for them to take down. Hope CCP looks into this. |
Eliniale
co-operative resource extraction
45
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 11:29:00 -
[45] - Quote
NPC's are supposed to add a level of randomness to encounters, which makes things interesting, since they can turn around quite quickly.
If you do engage somone in a belt with rats, you sorta of accept the risk that the rats may in fact go after you.
Not that the idea is bad, but I prefer the situation as it currently is. System ideas: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=191928&find=unread |
Sheala de'Tancarville
Ihilakken Research
1
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 11:33:00 -
[46] - Quote
Asuka Solo wrote:
You sit cloaked within tackle range and wait for him to clear the site so the rats don't grab you in the process. You grab him before he warps out seeing as you will see him "align" or take out the last rat.
Too much logic for you to compute it seems.
Clearly you've been rather "screwing around" than actually playing.
That tactic is viable only for ships that can warp in cloak. Unfortunately, those kind of ships either have not tank at all (bombers) or have **** dps (force recons, cloaky T3s).
Catching a ratter is ofter prelude to a fight - someone comes to rescue and fun is to be had. You can't have that flying cloakies. All that left is just pure ganks which COULD be fun but they get old fast.
From my perspective solution is quite simple - if I don't attack rats and I'm not helping someone who's attacking rats (i.e. logi ships), then rats leave me alone. Unless, I'm the only ship on the grid - then sure, rat can aggro. |
Colt Blackhawk
Forced Penetration Hopeless Addiction
45
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 11:55:00 -
[47] - Quote
Funny. So xou are whining that these carbears who do pve and haven-¦t mostly even a point fitted aren-¦t killable so easy any more???
I have doubts that this has to do sth with real solo pvp. Call it better assassinating or sth else. Carebears are still too easy to kill and it should be fixed. |
Roderick Grey
Assisted Genocide Black Legion.
226
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 12:51:00 -
[48] - Quote
Eliniale wrote:NPC's are supposed to add a level of randomness to encounters, which makes things interesting, since they can turn around quite quickly.
If you do engage somone in a belt with rats, you sorta of accept the risk that the rats may in fact go after you.
Not that the idea is bad, but I prefer the situation as it currently is.
It's not random if a pvper points/tackles they WILL be primary. GÇ£We could learn a lot from crayons; some are sharp, some are pretty, some are dull, while others bright, some have weird names, but they all have learned to live together in the same box.GÇ¥- Special needs division of Fcon. |
Juan Thang
Old American Syndicate Silent Infinity
5
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 14:33:00 -
[49] - Quote
Ueberlisk wrote:I'd like to add that nowdays it's impossible to go take down or harass carriers doing lvl 5s as solo player. The moment you land on grid, every npc on the field switches to you regardless of your ship type. Its one piece of this game that was really fun to do that is ruined by npc AI. Carebearetribution.
You arnt ment to do anything in level 5's solo stop whining |
Juan Thang
Old American Syndicate Silent Infinity
5
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 14:35:00 -
[50] - Quote
everyone stop whining cause you can't kill PvE ships anymore, deal with it and fit your ship accordingly use bubbles, get them on the way to the site, there's plenty of ways around it. |
|
Roderick Grey
Assisted Genocide Black Legion.
227
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 15:03:00 -
[51] - Quote
Juan Thang wrote:everyone stop whining cause you can't kill PvE ships anymore, deal with it and fit your ship accordingly use bubbles, get them on the way to the site, there's plenty of ways around it.
Are you saying a dictor can kill a tengu? what's stopping him from afterburning out of the bubble? GÇ£We could learn a lot from crayons; some are sharp, some are pretty, some are dull, while others bright, some have weird names, but they all have learned to live together in the same box.GÇ¥- Special needs division of Fcon. |
bongsmoke
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
93
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 15:14:00 -
[52] - Quote
Roderick Grey wrote:Having to run from ratting tengus and drakes because the rats have switched to you is a terrible feeling.
I think CCP should change the aggression mechanics so that players attacking them take priority over others. I mean, how is attacking the ship that's killing the ship that's attacking you make any sense?
I think CCP should make it the mechanics work like this:
A drake warps into a belt and gains priority 2 aggression from the rats.
The drake attacks one of the rats granting it priority 1 aggression.
The drake gets it's drones out and attacks a frigate rat with them, the drones now have priority 1 aggression aswell, allowing NPC AI to switch in-between their desired targets.
A Cynabal enters the belt and attacks the Drake and gains priority 2 aggression from the rats.
The rats continue attacking the drake, as the drake has type 1 aggression.
The drake dies, the rats switch to the Cynabal as there are no priority 1 targets on field.
How about no, keep it as is.....
I fully understand what you saying, just no... |
Roderick Grey
Assisted Genocide Black Legion.
227
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 15:21:00 -
[53] - Quote
bongsmoke wrote:
How about no, keep it as is.....
I fully understand what you saying, just no...
Thank you for contributing nothing to this discussion.
Now get out. GÇ£We could learn a lot from crayons; some are sharp, some are pretty, some are dull, while others bright, some have weird names, but they all have learned to live together in the same box.GÇ¥- Special needs division of Fcon. |
Juan Thang
Old American Syndicate Silent Infinity
5
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 17:01:00 -
[54] - Quote
Roderick Grey wrote:Juan Thang wrote:everyone stop whining cause you can't kill PvE ships anymore, deal with it and fit your ship accordingly use bubbles, get them on the way to the site, there's plenty of ways around it. Are you saying a dictor can kill a tengu? what's stopping him from afterburning out of the bubble?
No im not, and why a tengu in particular? absolutely nothing is stopping it, ive escaped bubble camps because the retards didn't think i could mwd out of it.... got grief in local because of it :P
This is what I mean though, every situation can be overcome. get a couple of webs and a warp disrupter that 'tengu' would be yours. Yes rats target other ships now.... its just something your gunna have to get used to. |
Bydla
VENDETTA-V
98
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 17:48:00 -
[55] - Quote
Kestrix wrote:LOL Pvp'er chased off by mission rats...
You do realise that the rats switch to you because your the biggest threat. There is not a first come first served system in combat .
You are working off the philosophy that the enemy of my enemy is my friend and it's not true. Ether bring a ship with a bigger tank or choose another profession :)
Edit: Sorry thought I was in GD then... that's an interesting idea but I'll have to give this one the thumbs down.
When you are tackling a tengu in a omen/thrasher, how can you be a bigger threat than tengu and get full aggro? Happened to me a lot. The hole idea of npc aggroing same size target is not working. Why I get bs aggro in a destroyer? Fix this **** mechanic. |
Commander Ted
Sudden Buggery Swift Angels Alliance
445
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 18:06:00 -
[56] - Quote
please change thread name to "NPC AI hurts solo ganking carebears".
Kinda nice if in a frigate fight on a gate or belt that just because the other guy warped into me im not at a permanent disadvantage and leads to a somewhat more level playing field. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=174097 Separate all 4 empires in eve with lowsec. |
Chandaris
Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel
229
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 18:22:00 -
[57] - Quote
No no no
you shouldn't be able to bust billion isk PVE t3's running 10/10's in a ****** t1 frig. If you can't hunt them down in a properly tanked ship, GTFO. Sansha hates everybody equally. |
Juan Thang
Old American Syndicate Silent Infinity
5
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 18:29:00 -
[58] - Quote
Chandaris wrote:No no no
you shouldn't be able to bust billion isk PVE t3's running 10/10's in a ****** t1 frig. If you can't hunt them down in a properly tanked ship, GTFO. Sansha hates everybody equally.
AGREED |
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
486
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 18:34:00 -
[59] - Quote
Roderick Grey wrote:Having to run from ratting tengus and drakes because the rats have switched to you is a terrible feeling.
I think CCP should change the aggression mechanics so that players attacking them take priority over others. I mean, how is attacking the ship that's killing the ship that's attacking you make any sense?
I think CCP should make it the mechanics work like this:
A drake warps into a belt and gains priority 2 aggression from the rats.
The drake attacks one of the rats granting it priority 1 aggression.
The drake gets it's drones out and attacks a frigate rat with them, the drones now have priority 1 aggression aswell, allowing NPC AI to switch in-between their desired targets.
A Cynabal enters the belt and attacks the Drake and gains priority 2 aggression from the rats.
The rats continue attacking the drake, as the drake has type 1 aggression.
The drake dies, the rats switch to the Cynabal as there are no priority 1 targets on field.
You don't need CCP to make rats help you killing raters, you need friends to help you kill the rater or provide you some reps.
There's no problem with those rats, those are fine.
Gò¡Gê¬Gò«n+ên+¦n++n+¦n+ëGò¡Gê¬Gò«-á don't haten++ |
Roderick Grey
Assisted Genocide Black Legion.
227
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 18:52:00 -
[60] - Quote
Juan Thang wrote:Roderick Grey wrote:Juan Thang wrote:everyone stop whining cause you can't kill PvE ships anymore, deal with it and fit your ship accordingly use bubbles, get them on the way to the site, there's plenty of ways around it. Are you saying a dictor can kill a tengu? what's stopping him from afterburning out of the bubble? No im not, and why a tengu in particular? absolutely nothing is stopping it, ive escaped bubble camps because the retards didn't think i could mwd out of it.... got grief in local because of it :P This is what I mean though, every situation can be overcome. get a couple of webs and a warp disrupter that 'tengu' would be yours. Yes rats target other ships now.... its just something your gunna have to get used to.
A tengu is the most popular ratting ship, hence it's an example of what one would typically encounter in an anom.
Well no it's not something I have to get used to if I feel this mechanic is genuinely flawed and others agree with me then CCP may tweak it to "balance" it further.
Chandaris wrote:No no no
you shouldn't be able to bust billion isk PVE t3's running 10/10's in a ****** t1 frig. If you can't hunt them down in a properly tanked ship, GTFO. Sansha hates everybody equally.
No T1 frig could take on a properly fit ratting Tengu.
Please show me an example of a ship with a large enough tank to hold it's own against 500 dps + rat aggro, that has roughly 400 EM (neuts would be recommended) damage and is fast enough to both navigate hostile null and catch/point ratters. GÇ£We could learn a lot from crayons; some are sharp, some are pretty, some are dull, while others bright, some have weird names, but they all have learned to live together in the same box.GÇ¥- Special needs division of Fcon. |
|
Roderick Grey
Assisted Genocide Black Legion.
229
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 18:53:00 -
[61] - Quote
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:
You don't need CCP to make rats help you killing raters, you need friends to help you kill the rater or provide you some reps.
There's no problem with those rats, those are fine.
Thank you for agreeing with me that the rat AI changes have affected my ability to solo pvp. GÇ£We could learn a lot from crayons; some are sharp, some are pretty, some are dull, while others bright, some have weird names, but they all have learned to live together in the same box.GÇ¥- Special needs division of Fcon. |
Bydla
VENDETTA-V
99
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 23:54:00 -
[62] - Quote
Chandaris wrote:No no no
you shouldn't be able to bust billion isk PVE t3's running 10/10's in a ****** t1 frig. If you can't hunt them down in a properly tanked ship, GTFO. Sansha hates everybody equally.
You can't kill a tengu in a tech 1, if it's not really dumb or afk. You can hunt them, get a point and wait for friends, maybe. But why in the name of god all the npcs switch to you? If a rifter is a bigger threat than you tengu, well.. gratz, every pvp newbie is better at EVE than your stupid tengu.
This is a thread about solo pvp/carebear killers saying that the npc is a little bit TOO crazy, and carebears saying it's ok, so they can hold against a good pvp ship and than say : LOL NOOB in local, of course. And I'm pretty sure every damn carebear is mad at npc changes too, because of different triggers/problem with tank,gank ships in fleet etc.
|
Juan Thang
Old American Syndicate Silent Infinity
5
|
Posted - 2013.01.23 01:23:00 -
[63] - Quote
Bydla wrote:[quote=Chandaris]And I'm pretty sure every damn carebear is mad at npc changes too, because of different triggers/problem with tank,gank ships in fleet etc.
Yes I am :P the tracking disruptor's are now so effective I cannot rat solo in a site with them in, I just cant field any DPS. This is why I now rat with corp mates so that we can keep a constant steam of DPS no matter who is TD'd. I suggest PvPers who try to catch ratters do the same. |
Roderick Grey
Assisted Genocide Black Legion.
229
|
Posted - 2013.01.23 03:32:00 -
[64] - Quote
Juan Thang wrote:Bydla wrote:[quote=Chandaris]And I'm pretty sure every damn carebear is mad at npc changes too, because of different triggers/problem with tank,gank ships in fleet etc.
Yes I am :P the tracking disruptor's are now so effective I cannot rat solo in a site with them in, I just cant field any DPS. This is why I now rat with corp mates so that we can keep a constant steam of DPS no matter who is TD'd. I suggest PvPers who try to catch ratters do the same.
Thank you for agreeing with me that rat AI have affected my ability to solo pvp. GÇ£We could learn a lot from crayons; some are sharp, some are pretty, some are dull, while others bright, some have weird names, but they all have learned to live together in the same box.GÇ¥- Special needs division of Fcon. |
Asuka Solo
Stark Fujikawa Stark Enterprises
2222
|
Posted - 2013.01.23 04:56:00 -
[65] - Quote
Sheala de'Tancarville wrote:Asuka Solo wrote:
You sit cloaked within tackle range and wait for him to clear the site so the rats don't grab you in the process. You grab him before he warps out seeing as you will see him "align" or take out the last rat.
Too much logic for you to compute it seems.
That tactic is viable only for ships that can warp in cloak. Unfortunately, those kind of ships either have not tank at all (bombers) or have **** dps (force recons, cloaky T3s).
Its not my fault you can't fit ships or are too spacepoor to bring the right tools for the right job.
T3s can easily push 450-500 DPS with cov ops cloak and a huge (80-120k EHP) buffer tank. Thats your cue to bring logi support and some broskies for added dps/tackle. And these guys sit on a gate nextdoor waiting for word the target is tackled.
No broskies? No Cloaky tackle with "patients" or "tactical awareness" while your trying to take on a player surrounded by a blob of rats in the hope he's too preoccupied trying to survive the fight you clearly can't?
Working as intended.
Now go cry some more.
Sheala de'Tancarville wrote:
From my perspective solution is quite simple - if I don't attack rats and I'm not helping someone who's attacking rats (i.e. logi ships), then rats leave me alone. Unless, I'm the only ship on the grid - then sure, rat can aggro.
If I were caught in an anom with a blob of rats that just switched to my attacker, I would attack the attacker and let the rats help me.
Your issue is you wan't free access to kill anyone in an open target environment without getting shot at on account of what you believe the situation should be... a static event that won't effect you at all.
As far as I'm concerned, if a rat wants to take a shot at you for showing up at the wrong place at the wrong time (much like a gate camp), you were a fool for warping in there as you did.
Given the nature of your responses, its most likely some t1 cruiser or lesser ship with no backup, or a useless battleship that has limits in terms of what it can and cannot engage by itself, with zero tank to guard against the rat blob.
Again, it boils down to your fail choices that are now manifesting as a forum whine about a mechanic that makes you think for your kill, not just blob for a kill. Eve is about Capital ships, WiS, Boobs, PI and Isk! |
Roderick Grey
Assisted Genocide Black Legion.
229
|
Posted - 2013.01.23 05:21:00 -
[66] - Quote
Asuka Solo wrote:Sheala de'Tancarville wrote:Asuka Solo wrote:
You sit cloaked within tackle range and wait for him to clear the site so the rats don't grab you in the process. You grab him before he warps out seeing as you will see him "align" or take out the last rat.
Too much logic for you to compute it seems.
That tactic is viable only for ships that can warp in cloak. Unfortunately, those kind of ships either have not tank at all (bombers) or have **** dps (force recons, cloaky T3s). Its not my fault you can't fit ships or are too spacepoor to bring the right tools for the right job. T3s can easily push 450-500 DPS with cov ops cloak and a huge (80-120k EHP) buffer tank. Thats your cue to bring logi support and some broskies for added dps/tackle. And these guys sit on a gate nextdoor waiting for word the target is tackled. No broskies? No Cloaky tackle with "patients" or "tactical awareness" while your trying to take on a player surrounded by a blob of rats in the hope he's too preoccupied trying to survive the fight you clearly can't? Working as intended. Now go cry some more.
Can you please link your t3 fit? GÇ£We could learn a lot from crayons; some are sharp, some are pretty, some are dull, while others bright, some have weird names, but they all have learned to live together in the same box.GÇ¥- Special needs division of Fcon. |
seth Hendar
I love you miners
1
|
Posted - 2013.01.23 09:13:00 -
[67] - Quote
Chandaris wrote:No no no
you shouldn't be able to bust billion isk PVE t3's running 10/10's in a ****** t1 frig. If you can't hunt them down in a properly tanked ship, GTFO. Sansha hates everybody equally. and yet, you can bust a 2-3B pve strat solo with a pilgrim / curse (a 200M ship) |
seth Hendar
I love you miners
1
|
Posted - 2013.01.23 09:15:00 -
[68] - Quote
Bydla wrote:Chandaris wrote:No no no
you shouldn't be able to bust billion isk PVE t3's running 10/10's in a ****** t1 frig. If you can't hunt them down in a properly tanked ship, GTFO. Sansha hates everybody equally. You can't kill a tengu in a tech 1, if it's not really dumb or afk. You can hunt them, get a point and wait for friends, maybe. But why in the name of god all the npcs switch to you? If a rifter is a bigger threat than you tengu, well.. gratz, every pvp newbie is better at EVE than your stupid tengu. This is a thread about solo pvp/carebear killers saying that the npc is a little bit TOO crazy, and carebears saying it's ok, so they can hold against a good pvp ship and than say : LOL NOOB in local, of course. And I'm pretty sure every damn carebear is mad at npc changes too, because of different triggers/problem with tank,gank ships in fleet etc. yes you can, neut myrm, neut domi, you will **** an active tanked strat easy
pve strat rely on cap for tanking, so yes, as long as it can cycle his reps, you won't even scratch it, but when it's capped out, well, that's when you realize this is finally just a cruiser |
seth Hendar
I love you miners
1
|
Posted - 2013.01.23 09:24:00 -
[69] - Quote
Asuka Solo wrote:Sheala de'Tancarville wrote:Asuka Solo wrote:
You sit cloaked within tackle range and wait for him to clear the site so the rats don't grab you in the process. You grab him before he warps out seeing as you will see him "align" or take out the last rat.
Too much logic for you to compute it seems.
That tactic is viable only for ships that can warp in cloak. Unfortunately, those kind of ships either have not tank at all (bombers) or have **** dps (force recons, cloaky T3s). Its not my fault you can't fit ships or are too spacepoor to bring the right tools for the right job. T3s can easily push 450-500 DPS with cov ops cloak and a huge (80-120k EHP) buffer tank. Thats your cue to bring logi support and some broskies for added dps/tackle. And these guys sit on a gate nextdoor waiting for word the target is tackled. No broskies? No Cloaky tackle with "patients" or "tactical awareness" while your trying to take on a player surrounded by a blob of rats in the hope he's too preoccupied trying to survive the fight you clearly can't? Working as intended. Now go cry some more. Sheala de'Tancarville wrote:
From my perspective solution is quite simple - if I don't attack rats and I'm not helping someone who's attacking rats (i.e. logi ships), then rats leave me alone. Unless, I'm the only ship on the grid - then sure, rat can aggro.
If I were caught in an anom with a blob of rats that just switched to my attacker, I would attack the attacker and let the rats help me. Your issue is you wan't free access to kill anyone in an open target environment without getting shot at on account of what you believe the situation should be... a static event that won't effect you at all. As far as I'm concerned, if a rat wants to take a shot at you for showing up at the wrong place at the wrong time (much like a gate camp), you were a fool for warping in there as you did. Given the nature of your responses, its most likely some t1 cruiser or lesser ship with no backup, or a useless battleship that has limits in terms of what it can and cannot engage by itself, with zero tank to guard against the rat blob. Again, it boils down to your fail choices that are now manifesting as a forum whine about a mechanic that makes you think for your kill, not just blob for a kill. i agree that the rats shall have the possibility to shoot everyone on field.
but the issue here, as i have described earlier, and wich affect both fleet pve and pvp, is that the last ship to appears on grid is the one taking full aggro, regardless of the threat it represent to the rats (this is why gankers get full aggro each time, they are the last to appear on field)
shall the gankers get part of the aggro? definitely yes
but the current situation is just wrong as the aggro mechanic is not working as intended, it is supposed to be smart, and respond to the threat posed to the rats, but ATM, it just aggro the last thing, be it a rifter, even if there are 3 machariel killing them on field they WILL switch |
Ueberlisk
The Hatchery Team Liquid
32
|
Posted - 2013.01.23 12:14:00 -
[70] - Quote
Juan Thang wrote:Ueberlisk wrote:I'd like to add that nowdays it's impossible to go take down or harass carriers doing lvl 5s as solo player. The moment you land on grid, every npc on the field switches to you regardless of your ship type. Its one piece of this game that was really fun to do that is ruined by npc AI. Carebearetribution. You arnt ment to do anything in level 5's solo stop whining
Yet you can easily grind lvl 5s solo. You used to be able to go gank the missioners(who are mostly in carriers) doing them lvl 5s solo. Maybe you never tried it or had the balls to do it but it was definitely possible. Now you need at least some support if you plan to do anything with subcaps. You mention other ways of catching those missioners but that only applies to null sec where you have other tools available. Only way to really catch them in low sec is to probe down their missions and hope they don't notice.
It's mostly not an issue and you can choose your "poison" for anything other than lvl 5s or highest DED sites where the damage is just untankable without specialized setup. It's just weird to me that npcs are basically protecting careless bears that are bad enough to get caught in the first place. |
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Lloyd Roses
Blue-Fire PLEASE NOT VIOLENCE OUR BOATS
32
|
Posted - 2013.01.23 13:06:00 -
[71] - Quote
Asuka Solo wrote:Sheala de'Tancarville wrote:Asuka Solo wrote:
You sit cloaked within tackle range and wait for him to clear the site so the rats don't grab you in the process. You grab him before he warps out seeing as you will see him "align" or take out the last rat.
Too much logic for you to compute it seems.
That tactic is viable only for ships that can warp in cloak. Unfortunately, those kind of ships either have not tank at all (bombers) or have **** dps (force recons, cloaky T3s). Its not my fault you can't fit ships or are too spacepoor to bring the right tools for the right job. T3s can easily push 450-500 DPS with cov ops cloak and a huge (80-120k EHP) buffer tank. Thats your cue to bring logi support and some broskies for added dps/tackle. And these guys sit on a gate nextdoor waiting for word the target is tackled. .
T3s can easily push out 450-500 dps. Yes, easily, given that you are flying a proteus and don't want that tank you promised. Else, 300-400 is way more realistical given an avergae of cloaky t3s. with 300 dps you can't even kill a solo drake.
So try harder. Did you also know that cloaky t3s are usually jammed within a minute by the smallest ecm-drones? |
Asuka Solo
Stark Fujikawa Stark Enterprises
2222
|
Posted - 2013.01.23 13:26:00 -
[72] - Quote
Roderick Grey wrote: Can you please link your t3 fit?
More tank than bite
More bite than tank Eve is about Capital ships, WiS, Boobs, PI and Isk! |
Asuka Solo
Stark Fujikawa Stark Enterprises
2222
|
Posted - 2013.01.23 13:28:00 -
[73] - Quote
Lloyd Roses wrote:
T3s can easily push out 450-500 dps. Yes, easily, given that you are flying a proteus and don't want that tank you promised. Else, 300-400 is way more realistical given an avergae of cloaky t3s. with 300 dps you can't even kill a solo drake.
So try harder.
I highly suggest you learn how to play with EFT..... Because the tank and the DPS are both possible in the same fit....
Eve is about Capital ships, WiS, Boobs, PI and Isk! |
Asuka Solo
Stark Fujikawa Stark Enterprises
2223
|
Posted - 2013.01.23 14:19:00 -
[74] - Quote
seth Hendar wrote: but the current situation is just wrong as the aggro mechanic is not working as intended, it is supposed to be smart, and respond to the threat posed to the rats, but ATM, it just aggro the last thing, be it a rifter, even if there are 3 machariel killing them on field they WILL switch
I haven't noticed this tbh.
I'll keep a look out or go test it with some alts.
But I have walked away from sites with part of the agro and I have seen it switched to me and from me to some1 else in my gang while we take out the poor capsuleer who didn't have the required amount of situational awareness. So as far as my experience goes, it seems to be going smoothly. Admittedly, sometimes some of us just end up finishing the sites as well. Eve is about Capital ships, WiS, Boobs, PI and Isk! |
Roderick Grey
Assisted Genocide Black Legion.
232
|
Posted - 2013.01.23 15:04:00 -
[75] - Quote
Asuka Solo wrote:Roderick Grey wrote: Can you please link your t3 fit?
More tank than biteMore bite than tankMore tank than sanityAll with Gunnery implants. There are tanking implants also.... Don't get me started on what your numbers will be if you bring friends in command ships with epic fleet boost along for the ride...
I'll get right on attacking Tengus with Thermal dps. GÇ£We could learn a lot from crayons; some are sharp, some are pretty, some are dull, while others bright, some have weird names, but they all have learned to live together in the same box.GÇ¥- Special needs division of Fcon. |
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
62
|
Posted - 2013.01.23 18:27:00 -
[76] - Quote
The biggest fail here is the ganking mindset of what Solo means. At least this guy appears to be using solo as just him and a few dozen NPC's, instead of the somewhat more common "soloist" + few dozen NPC's + Off Grid Boost Alt + xx alts.
I have noted that NPCs do like to switch to the new guy in droves when he first appears, until their next target cycle. I can see where this would be a problem for the carebear hunter.... and despite my extreme carebear nature, do sympathize a little. Not much, as you were hoping to catch a near defenseless ship under fire by multiple enemies at an even steeper disadvantage than the pve ship would normally have against you for an effortless and risk free kill mail, but some sympathy regardless. |
Ueberlisk
The Hatchery Team Liquid
32
|
Posted - 2013.01.24 04:30:00 -
[77] - Quote
nothing like smashing defenseless bears. |
Roderick Grey
Assisted Genocide Black Legion.
232
|
Posted - 2013.01.24 05:40:00 -
[78] - Quote
Mike Voidstar wrote:The biggest fail here is the ganking mindset of what Solo means. At least this guy appears to be using solo as just him and a few dozen NPC's, instead of the somewhat more common "soloist" + few dozen NPC's + Off Grid Boost Alt + xx alts.
I have noted that NPCs do like to switch to the new guy in droves when he first appears, until their next target cycle. I can see where this would be a problem for the carebear hunter.... and despite my extreme carebear nature, do sympathize a little. Not much, as you were hoping to catch a near defenseless ship under fire by multiple enemies at an even steeper disadvantage than the pve ship would normally have against you for an effortless and risk free kill mail, but some sympathy regardless.
Almost nobody ganks ratters with link alts, if they're going to use an alt they'd use a bomber alt for dps and scouting/tackle.
Also I'm not talking about one guys + X accounts I'm talking about one dude going into hostile space and killing idiots and how NPC AI have changed that for the worse.
But please tell me more about how much an "extreme carebear" knows about solo roaming. GÇ£We could learn a lot from crayons; some are sharp, some are pretty, some are dull, while others bright, some have weird names, but they all have learned to live together in the same box.GÇ¥- Special needs division of Fcon. |
Gwenievere Sui
Hyperfleet Industries
0
|
Posted - 2013.01.24 11:32:00 -
[79] - Quote
Chandaris wrote:No no no
you shouldn't be able to bust billion isk PVE t3's running 10/10's in a ****** t1 frig. If you can't hunt them down in a properly tanked ship, GTFO. Sansha hates everybody equally.
So if sansha hates everyone equally, why do they switch to the ship entering grid 100% of the time? your saying that its unfair for someone doing PvE to have to fight the rats and the player at the same time, so the solution is to completely reverse the situation?
In my opinion the NPCs should behave realistically, if your a captain of a ship and an unknown entity arrives on grid, are you not more likely to wait and see what it does rather than immediately primary it?
Even if it is so unfair on someone who has plenty of time to get out of the site before the hostile warps in to keep aggro, it would make sense to have a more random aggression system, maybe sometimes the NPCs will change to the new player on grid, or maybe some of them will switch and some will remain on the original target?
If you want to be able to PvE with little risk of being killed by another player, why don't you just go back to HiSec? 0.0 isn't supposed to be safe to carebear in.... |
TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
920
|
Posted - 2013.01.24 14:59:00 -
[80] - Quote
Davader wrote:Agree with TS, CCP have to fix their fail with aggro switching. If a stealth bomber decloacks over ratting BS or BC, the NPC shouldn't all aggro on the bomber, leaving the carebear alone - that's definately wrong logic in aggro mechanics.
No, that's perfectly right. Why would mr npc pirate *not* fire upon yet another unaffiliated pilot turning up at his gangs hideout? You're not one of him and his crew, you're just another random person. He's going to attack you too. Even if you cry about it :(
|
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Malcorian Vandsteidt
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
58
|
Posted - 2013.01.24 15:57:00 -
[81] - Quote
Paikis wrote:The NPC rats will chose to swap to the attacker every time though, due to their hate of EWAR (scram+web). The Tengu could have been in that site killing NPCs for half an hour, and the second you turn a scram on, the rats will swap to you.
This could maybe use some tweaking. Perhaps make scrams and webs, or even just long points immune to this kind of hate?
Can't hold your target down without a point. Using a point will guarantee you get agro 100% of the time.
Seems to actively discourage ganking.
This is working as intended, it's meant to stop PvPers from getting the "easy gank kill, and actually make them work for it.
Too many kill boards are littered with gank kills from NPC help. I am glad this system is in place as it will help separate the Noob and cowardly / unskilled PvPers who can't win a fair fight and must pick from the bottom of the barrel to inflate their killboards from doing just that.
If you want to pvp, then friken PVP, stop shooting targets who have very little chance of fighting you. It's cowardly, unprofessional, and makes you look like a moron bottom feeding parasite who can't fend for himself.
I would not recruit Pvpers to my corp who have a track record of Killing mining ships and ratters, because you all are worthless unskilled PvPers who would do nothing but drag My alliance down. |
Nikk Narrel
Infinite Improbability Inc Relativity Alliance
1135
|
Posted - 2013.01.24 16:05:00 -
[82] - Quote
This is funny. It really is.
After all the times PvE pilots were told to fit a tank, or compromise their fittings to allow for some possibility that they might encounter unplanned PvP engagements... we get to now suggest the reverse is also true.
Dear gankers,
Please consider fitting your PvP attack craft in a manner consistent with surviving an NPC encounter, since you seem to insist on engaging during fights where they are involved. As a separate option, perhaps you could send the NPC a chat request, and ask if they will let you help them. (In the event they ignore you, you can still fit your ship as a fall back option)
Happy Piloting! Cloaking being on a ten minute manual cycle timer? (Author: Bree Okanata) Fine. As long as there is a ten minute timer for being docked in a station. Also, you can't stop moving in the game. Just add in a way so every ten minutes you are randomly warped to the nearest other player. Keeps people from going AFK. |
Malcorian Vandsteidt
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
58
|
Posted - 2013.01.24 16:41:00 -
[83] - Quote
Bydla wrote:Chandaris wrote:No no no
you shouldn't be able to bust billion isk PVE t3's running 10/10's in a ****** t1 frig. If you can't hunt them down in a properly tanked ship, GTFO. Sansha hates everybody equally. You can't kill a tengu in a tech 1, if it's not really dumb or afk. You can hunt them, get a point and wait for friends, maybe. But why in the name of god all the npcs switch to you? If a rifter is a bigger threat than you tengu, well.. gratz, every pvp newbie is better at EVE than your stupid tengu. This is a thread about solo pvp/carebear killers saying that the npc is a little bit TOO crazy, and carebears saying it's ok, so they can hold against a good pvp ship and than say : LOL NOOB in local, of course. And I'm pretty sure every damn carebear is mad at npc changes too, because of different triggers/problem with tank,gank ships in fleet etc.
No Carebears arnt mad, they just think Pirate tears are funny in local...
Im a pvper and well.... So do I. Learn to fit your ship you friken noob, and stop expecting a free kill, this is Eve not duckhunt. |
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
496
|
Posted - 2013.01.24 18:46:00 -
[84] - Quote
Roderick Grey wrote:Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:
You don't need CCP to make rats help you killing raters, you need friends to help you kill the rater or provide you some reps.
There's no problem with those rats, those are fine.
Thank you for agreeing with me that the rat AI changes have affected my ability to solo pvp.
They don't, you just can't or don't want to adapt.
Why in hell you should be able to come in to whatever site, need no tank but full gank and fingers in the nose kill the ratter being already punished by rats? He's already fitting a tank so you should, why rats shouldn't change their agro when if those were players they would?
If something I believe for once this new AI system brings everyone at the same level, brainless rater and brainless kilmail farmer.
You know you can also graveyard camp gates and stations, just change your tactics, adapt yourself or find another friend to fly with.
Gò¡Gê¬Gò«n+ên+¦n++n+¦n+ëGò¡Gê¬Gò«-á don't haten++ |
Roderick Grey
Assisted Genocide Black Legion.
234
|
Posted - 2013.01.25 06:29:00 -
[85] - Quote
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:Roderick Grey wrote:Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:
You don't need CCP to make rats help you killing raters, you need friends to help you kill the rater or provide you some reps.
There's no problem with those rats, those are fine.
Thank you for agreeing with me that the rat AI changes have affected my ability to solo pvp. They don't, you just can't or don't want to adapt. Why in hell you should be able to come in to whatever site, need no tank but full gank and fingers in the nose kill the ratter being already punished by rats? He's already fitting a tank so you should, why rats shouldn't change their agro when if those were players they would? If something I believe for once this new AI system brings everyone at the same level, brainless rater and brainless kilmail farmer. You know you can also graveyard camp gates and stations, just change your tactics, adapt yourself or find another friend to fly with.
Actually no, the ratter isn't fitting a pvp tank or a point or even a warp core stab.
I feel like most carebears are complaining about how one-sided it is when we're on grid with them without taking into consideration how difficult it CAN be to get on grid with them.
Guess how easy it is to stop a ganker killing you, look in local.
GÇ£We could learn a lot from crayons; some are sharp, some are pretty, some are dull, while others bright, some have weird names, but they all have learned to live together in the same box.GÇ¥- Special needs division of Fcon. |
Malcorian Vandsteidt
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
65
|
Posted - 2013.01.25 06:44:00 -
[86] - Quote
Roderick Grey wrote:Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:Roderick Grey wrote:Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:
You don't need CCP to make rats help you killing raters, you need friends to help you kill the rater or provide you some reps.
There's no problem with those rats, those are fine.
Thank you for agreeing with me that the rat AI changes have affected my ability to solo pvp. They don't, you just can't or don't want to adapt. Why in hell you should be able to come in to whatever site, need no tank but full gank and fingers in the nose kill the ratter being already punished by rats? He's already fitting a tank so you should, why rats shouldn't change their agro when if those were players they would? If something I believe for once this new AI system brings everyone at the same level, brainless rater and brainless kilmail farmer. You know you can also graveyard camp gates and stations, just change your tactics, adapt yourself or find another friend to fly with. Actually no, the ratter isn't fitting a pvp tank or a point or even a warp core stab. I feel like most carebears are complaining about how one-sided it is when we're on grid with them without taking into consideration how difficult it CAN be to get on grid with them. Guess how easy it is to stop a ganker killing you, look in local.
Oh its quite easy to stop a ganker these days now that the pvp system is actualy "Balanced" and not one sided giving the Ganker every advantage and the Victim none.
But you noob Terrorists never did have the skill to fight people who could actually shoot back at you.
|
Roderick Grey
Assisted Genocide Black Legion.
234
|
Posted - 2013.01.25 06:49:00 -
[87] - Quote
Malcorian Vandsteidt wrote:
Oh its quite easy to stop a ganker these days now that the pvp system is actualy "Balanced" and not one sided giving the Ganker every advantage and the Victim none.
But you noob Terrorists never did have the skill to fight people who could actually shoot back at you, so I am not surprised to see your tears here and hey I rejoice at them :D because they are fapping funny. Now you know how all those care bears felt all the times you ganked them and they could do nothing to stop you.
The second you start calling people "noob terrorists" is the second your argument loses credibility, not looking up somebody's killboard before trying to put a label on them hurts it as-well.
But thank you for ignoring the valid point I made and going back to the argument atleast 6 people have been barking in this thread that a PvE fit ship should have assistance from the NPCs they're there to hurt. GÇ£We could learn a lot from crayons; some are sharp, some are pretty, some are dull, while others bright, some have weird names, but they all have learned to live together in the same box.GÇ¥- Special needs division of Fcon. |
Malcorian Vandsteidt
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
65
|
Posted - 2013.01.25 06:55:00 -
[88] - Quote
Roderick Grey wrote:Malcorian Vandsteidt wrote:
Oh its quite easy to stop a ganker these days now that the pvp system is actualy "Balanced" and not one sided giving the Ganker every advantage and the Victim none.
But you noob Terrorists never did have the skill to fight people who could actually shoot back at you, so I am not surprised to see your tears here and hey I rejoice at them :D because they are fapping funny. Now you know how all those care bears felt all the times you ganked them and they could do nothing to stop you.
The second you start calling people "noob terrorists" is the second your argument loses credibility, not looking up somebody's killboard before trying to put a label on them hurts it as-well. But thank you for ignoring the valid point I made and going back to the argument atleast 6 people have been barking in this thread that a PvE fit ship should have assistance from the NPCs they're there to hurt.
Lol the fact you think a KB means jack crap in this game is Hilarious and shows what a Noob to PvP you truly are. KB's can be buffered and bought, they mean nothing in the larger picture.
And I like most people post on an alt for the forums.
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Roderick Grey
Assisted Genocide Black Legion.
234
|
Posted - 2013.01.25 06:59:00 -
[89] - Quote
Malcorian Vandsteidt wrote:Roderick Grey wrote:Malcorian Vandsteidt wrote:
Oh its quite easy to stop a ganker these days now that the pvp system is actualy "Balanced" and not one sided giving the Ganker every advantage and the Victim none.
But you noob Terrorists never did have the skill to fight people who could actually shoot back at you, so I am not surprised to see your tears here and hey I rejoice at them :D because they are fapping funny. Now you know how all those care bears felt all the times you ganked them and they could do nothing to stop you.
The second you start calling people "noob terrorists" is the second your argument loses credibility, not looking up somebody's killboard before trying to put a label on them hurts it as-well. But thank you for ignoring the valid point I made and going back to the argument atleast 6 people have been barking in this thread that a PvE fit ship should have assistance from the NPCs they're there to hurt. 1. Lol the fact you think a KB means jack crap in this game is Hilarious and shows what a Noob to PvP you truly are. KB's can be buffered and bought, they mean nothing in the larger picture. And I like most people post on an alt for the forums. 2. No one is saying NPC's should help anyone, Were saying NPCs should attack EVERYONE, and currently they do I see no issue with this system.
You're saying I don't have the skill to shoot people that shoot back, my KB proves you wrong.
And NPC's don't shoot everyone, I have never had NPCs assist me in an anom against a pve ship post patch.
But please keep calling me a noob and embarrassing yourself in a discussion about spaceship AI. GÇ£We could learn a lot from crayons; some are sharp, some are pretty, some are dull, while others bright, some have weird names, but they all have learned to live together in the same box.GÇ¥- Special needs division of Fcon. |
Malcorian Vandsteidt
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
65
|
Posted - 2013.01.25 07:04:00 -
[90] - Quote
Roderick Grey wrote:Malcorian Vandsteidt wrote:Roderick Grey wrote:Malcorian Vandsteidt wrote:
Oh its quite easy to stop a ganker these days now that the pvp system is actualy "Balanced" and not one sided giving the Ganker every advantage and the Victim none.
But you noob Terrorists never did have the skill to fight people who could actually shoot back at you, so I am not surprised to see your tears here and hey I rejoice at them :D because they are fapping funny. Now you know how all those care bears felt all the times you ganked them and they could do nothing to stop you.
The second you start calling people "noob terrorists" is the second your argument loses credibility, not looking up somebody's killboard before trying to put a label on them hurts it as-well. But thank you for ignoring the valid point I made and going back to the argument atleast 6 people have been barking in this thread that a PvE fit ship should have assistance from the NPCs they're there to hurt. 1. Lol the fact you think a KB means jack crap in this game is Hilarious and shows what a Noob to PvP you truly are. KB's can be buffered and bought, they mean nothing in the larger picture. And I like most people post on an alt for the forums. 2. No one is saying NPC's should help anyone, Were saying NPCs should attack EVERYONE, and currently they do I see no issue with this system. You're saying I don't have the skill to shoot people that shoot back, my KB proves you wrong. And NPC's don't shoot everyone, I have never had NPCs assist me post patch. But please keep calling me a noob and embarrassing yourself in a discussion about spaceship AI.
All your Killboard proves is that you Bought a character with a decent kilboard....
I mean really... The way you talk is like "Me want kill for free, Why NPC's bad to me and shoot me Wha wha wha, I can't kill PvEer's now because rats shoot me Wha wha wha...."
There is no way your not a new player. And if you are.. well the Eve Community should Morn because the mental state of the Vet is seriously dropping into Senility.... And who knows which one of us will be next..... THAT would be a sad day indeed.... |
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Roderick Grey
Assisted Genocide Black Legion.
234
|
Posted - 2013.01.25 07:06:00 -
[91] - Quote
Malcorian Vandsteidt wrote:
All your Killboard proves is that you Bought a character with a decent kilboard....
I mean really... The way you talk is like "Me want kill for free, Why NPC's bad to me and shoot me Wha wha wha, I can't kill PvEer's now because rats shoot me Wha wha wha...."
There is no way your not a new player. And if you are a vet...... well the Eve Community should Morn because the mental state of the Vet is seriously dropping into Senility.... And who knows which one of us will be next..... THAT would be a sad day indeed....
Ok, can we resume some intelligent discussion please? GÇ£We could learn a lot from crayons; some are sharp, some are pretty, some are dull, while others bright, some have weird names, but they all have learned to live together in the same box.GÇ¥- Special needs division of Fcon. |
Malcorian Vandsteidt
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
65
|
Posted - 2013.01.25 07:11:00 -
[92] - Quote
Roderick Grey wrote:Malcorian Vandsteidt wrote:
All your Killboard proves is that you Bought a character with a decent kilboard....
I mean really... The way you talk is like "Me want kill for free, Why NPC's bad to me and shoot me Wha wha wha, I can't kill PvEer's now because rats shoot me Wha wha wha...."
There is no way your not a new player. And if you are a vet...... well the Eve Community should Morn because the mental state of the Vet is seriously dropping into Senility.... And who knows which one of us will be next..... THAT would be a sad day indeed....
Ok, can we resume some intelligent discussion please?
1. You should know I have nothing against Noobs or new players, to be honest (And no offense to the vets) I prefer them simply because they are easier to train and are generally more loyal.
2. Your OP however is not Valid. In any since of the word BUT, I tell you what, answer me this:
** Why should the rats "Not" shoot you and allow you an easy kill against an already damaged and weakened target? I mean Eve does have a No free lunch policy and I fully support this where PvP is concerned. |
Roderick Grey
Assisted Genocide Black Legion.
234
|
Posted - 2013.01.25 07:23:00 -
[93] - Quote
Malcorian Vandsteidt wrote:
** Why should the rats "Not" shoot you and allow you an easy kill against an already damaged and weakened target?
From a logical stand-point why would faction rats target something not agressing them over something that is? I do alot of ratter ganking up in Guristas space where I actually have some decent (corp) standing with them, it just doesn't make any sense for them to prioritize me over someone with significantly less standing than the person who's actually agressing them.
Solo roamers provide content, black ops drops and AFK cloakers are a solution to the AI issue but they hardly provide any entertainment for most involved, CCP should encourage player-created content and by proxy encouraging solo roaming, AI affects that.
Ratters are there to generate isk in nullsec, and as we all know Eve is built around risk and reward, me burning 18 jumps in a hurricane through hostile nullsec and through enemy HQ systems to roam popular ratting area in enemy territory, is me risking my ship for the reward of a possible ratter/other idiot kill. However ratters undock their ships in friendly space and rat in friendly space, to make 50/hour with ease, and all they have to do to avoid any risk is simply looking at intel channels and local. They're not supposed to hold their own against a Pvp fit ****, it doesn't work like that, the next thing you'll hear is miners claiming that asteroids should shield them from suicide gankers.
GÇ£We could learn a lot from crayons; some are sharp, some are pretty, some are dull, while others bright, some have weird names, but they all have learned to live together in the same box.GÇ¥- Special needs division of Fcon. |
Asuka Solo
Stark Fujikawa Stark Enterprises
2228
|
Posted - 2013.01.25 07:36:00 -
[94] - Quote
Roderick Grey wrote:Malcorian Vandsteidt wrote:
** Why should the rats "Not" shoot you and allow you an easy kill against an already damaged and weakened target?
From a logical stand-point why would faction rats target something not agressing them over something that is?
Because their rats. They target everything regardless of standings or context.
Eve is about Capital ships, WiS, Boobs, PI and Isk! |
Mag's
the united Negative Ten.
13791
|
Posted - 2013.01.25 08:22:00 -
[95] - Quote
Roderick Grey wrote:From a logical stand-point why would faction rats target something not agressing them over something that is? I do alot of ratter ganking up in Guristas space where I actually have some decent (corp) standing with them, it just doesn't make any sense for them to prioritize me over someone with significantly more standing than the person who's actually agressing them.
Solo roamers provide content, black ops drops and AFK cloakers are a solution to the AI issue but they hardly provide any entertainment for most involved, CCP should encourage player-created content and by proxy encourage solo roaming, AI affects that.
Ratters are there to generate isk in nullsec, and as we all know Eve is built around risk and reward, me burning 18 jumps in a hurricane through hostile nullsec and through enemy HQ systems to roam popular ratting areas in enemy territory, is me risking my ship for the reward of a possible ratter/other idiot kill. However ratters undock their ships in friendly space and rat in friendly space, to make 50/hour with ease, and all they have to do to avoid any risk is simply looking at intel channels and local. They're not supposed to hold their own against a Pvp fit ship, it doesn't work like that, the next thing you'll hear is miners claiming that asteroids should shield them from suicide gankers. Well NPC's look upon you as a bigger threat and decide to remove you first.
You can adapt to this change, you just need the time to learn how.
Personally I like the change, as it adds more risk.
CCP Zulu..... Forcing players to dock at the captain's quarters is a form of what we actually wanted to get through, which is making Incarna a seamless part of the EVE Online experience. |
Vladimir Norkoff
Income Redistribution Service
84
|
Posted - 2013.01.25 09:32:00 -
[96] - Quote
Roderick Grey wrote:The second you start calling people "noob terrorists" is the second your argument loses credibility, not looking up somebody's killboard before trying to put a label on them hurts it as-well. But Roderick.... your KB is shiite dude. :-/ (Trying to use a KB to support an argument is generally a terrible idea.)
The glory days of easy ganks are over, and the new AI is here to stay. Just accept it and adapt. Use a ship with a tank to gank ratters / anom runners. Loki or Proteus can be good choices depending on your flavor of rats. But there are cheaper alternatives as well.
|
Roderick Grey
Assisted Genocide Black Legion.
235
|
Posted - 2013.01.25 09:49:00 -
[97] - Quote
Vladimir Norkoff wrote:Roderick Grey wrote:The second you start calling people "noob terrorists" is the second your argument loses credibility, not looking up somebody's killboard before trying to put a label on them hurts it as-well. But Roderick.... your KB is shiite dude. :-/ (Trying to use a KB to support an argument is generally a terrible idea.)The glory days of easy ganks are over, and the new AI is here to stay. Just accept it and adapt. Use a ship with a tank to gank ratters / anom runners. Loki or Proteus can be good choices depending on your flavor of rats. But there are cheaper alternatives as well.
My KB is terribad, but it still disproves his statement.
GÇ£We could learn a lot from crayons; some are sharp, some are pretty, some are dull, while others bright, some have weird names, but they all have learned to live together in the same box.GÇ¥- Special needs division of Fcon. |
ITTigerClawIK
Galactic Rangers R O G U E
185
|
Posted - 2013.01.25 12:34:00 -
[98] - Quote
came for AFK mission runner Tears... left with Solo PvP'er tears.... delighted and also slightly confused.
on another note, OMG there NPC's grow a pair will you please! |
Estella Osoka
Deep Void Merc Syndicate
41
|
Posted - 2013.01.25 13:07:00 -
[99] - Quote
So this basically boils down to the fact that you failed to take into account that the NPCs now switch targets and almost got your ship exploded. Nothing wrong with the NPC AI. The NPCs now see everyone as a target and will switch targets based on what is the best target. Best target can mean you are in range, have bigger sig radius, have more dps, have less tank, etc. The ratters know this, and will now probably stay in sites longer because people like you who do not realize the consequences of the new NPC AI will also get aggro and they can use that to thier advantage. Hell, I've seen players in PVP kiting Lokis now sit in sites waiting on somebody like you to come along, because they know the aggro will switch and then they can catch you and melt you. Bottomline: Change your tactics. |
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
63
|
Posted - 2013.01.25 13:36:00 -
[100] - Quote
Roderick Grey wrote:
Ratters are there to generate isk in nullsec, and as we all know Eve is built around risk and reward, me burning 18 jumps in a hurricane through hostile nullsec and through enemy HQ systems to roam popular ratting areas in enemy territory, is me risking my ship for the reward of a possible ratter/other idiot kill. However ratters undock their ships in friendly space and rat in friendly space, to make 50/hour with ease, and all they have to do to avoid any risk is simply looking at intel channels and local. They're not supposed to hold their own against a Pvp fit ship, it doesn't work like that, the next thing you'll hear is miners claiming that asteroids should shield them from suicide gankers.
Yeah... see...
That ratter is out there ratting because he wants to rat. Maybe he likes making ISK, maybe he likes watching spaceships shoot eachother... does not really matter. What matters is that he **SHOULD NOT HAVE TO DOCK AND WATCH HIS SHIP SPIN JUST BECAUSE YOU FEEL LIKE HE SHOULD, OR ELSE DIE** This statement is true of all carebear activities, be it mining, ratting, missioning, or making freaking can art. Bears don't call it a win when they get to a station to dock, they call it a win when they get to finish their mission, rat, or smiley face made of cans. There is no possiblity at the moment of that happening, if a bear is hunted, he must dock or safe spot, because fighting in a PvE fit ship is at best a draw that sends the pirate running temporarily.
Non-consensual pvp should cut both ways. You are forcing it on him, he should be able to force it on you. You should never be able to enter into a fight with 100% chance of victory, with only overconfidence being your sole weakness causing a ship loss.
I happen to agree with your initial point--- rats should not all immediatly aggro a new ship. I am fine with some of them splitting off to get you, but all seems a bit broke. This is true for more than just ratter vs. mouth breathing baby eater. I often fly a logistics toting failure of a command ship because I like bringing friends new to the game with me in missions, and while I have no problem with them being shot the way the AI is now makes that a fairly lethal proposition for their first couple of weeks. |
|
Malcorian Vandsteidt
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
65
|
Posted - 2013.01.25 14:35:00 -
[101] - Quote
Roderick Grey wrote:Malcorian Vandsteidt wrote:
** Why should the rats "Not" shoot you and allow you an easy kill against an already damaged and weakened target?
From a logical stand-point why would faction rats target something not agressing them over something that is? I do alot of ratter ganking up in Guristas space where I actually have some decent (corp) standing with them, it just doesn't make any sense for them to prioritize me over someone with significantly more standing than the person who's actually agressing them. Solo roamers provide content, black ops drops and AFK cloakers are a solution to the AI issue but they hardly provide any entertainment for most involved, CCP should encourage player-created content and by proxy encourage solo roaming, AI affects that. Ratters are there to generate isk in nullsec, and as we all know Eve is built around risk and reward, me burning 18 jumps in a hurricane through hostile nullsec and through enemy HQ systems to roam popular ratting areas in enemy territory, is me risking my ship for the reward of a possible ratter/other idiot kill. However ratters undock their ships in friendly space and rat in friendly space, to make 50/hour with ease, and all they have to do to avoid any risk is simply looking at intel channels and local. They're not supposed to hold their own against a Pvp fit ship, it doesn't work like that, the next thing you'll hear is miners claiming that asteroids should shield them from suicide gankers.
Personally, If I was a Pirate "AI" (Faction or otherwise) and had been fighting something for a few minuets and loosing ships, or just loosing in general) and an easier to kill target warped in, You better believe I would switch targets.
|
Fon Revedhort
Monks of War Out of Sight.
958
|
Posted - 2013.01.25 14:37:00 -
[102] - Quote
Roderick Grey wrote:Having to run from ratting tengus and drakes because the rats have switched to you is a terrible feeling. You're addressing the problem from the wrong side, m8 ;)
Moronity you describe only happens because NPCs don't warp out when farmers shoot them. Can you imagine how stupid that actually is? Fix that and all of a sudden everyone farming is now required to have a scram/point of his own. That will even up the odds for pretty much all situations. 14 |
Malcorian Vandsteidt
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
65
|
Posted - 2013.01.25 14:45:00 -
[103] - Quote
Fon Revedhort wrote:Roderick Grey wrote:Having to run from ratting tengus and drakes because the rats have switched to you is a terrible feeling. You're addressing the problem from the wrong side, m8 ;) Moronity you describe only happens because NPCs don't warp out when farmers shoot them. Can you imagine how stupid that actually is? Fix that and all of a sudden everyone farming is now required to have a scram/point of his own. That will even up the odds for pretty much all situations.
Um.. The AI's actually do warp out on occasion if they are loosing.
On another Note not really in reply to you but to Rodderick:
I PvP fit my Ratting ship and Pray to God some noob Terrorist pilot TRIES to kill me while I'm ratting. And I always OMNI tank my ship. With my SP rats don't even dent it anyway no matter how I fit the damn thing. |
Fon Revedhort
Monks of War Out of Sight.
958
|
Posted - 2013.01.25 14:49:00 -
[104] - Quote
Malcorian Vandsteidt wrote:Fon Revedhort wrote:Roderick Grey wrote:Having to run from ratting tengus and drakes because the rats have switched to you is a terrible feeling. You're addressing the problem from the wrong side, m8 ;) Moronity you describe only happens because NPCs don't warp out when farmers shoot them. Can you imagine how stupid that actually is? Fix that and all of a sudden everyone farming is now required to have a scram/point of his own. That will even up the odds for pretty much all situations. Um.. The AI's actually do warp out on occasion if they are loosing. May be, but that should become a rule rather than an exception. Also, afaik currently scrams won't prevent rats from warping out, so there are 2 issues that require CCP's attention.
Among other things, this is strictly in line with Ytterbium ideas of bringing PvP and PvE closer to each other.
14 |
Nikk Narrel
Infinite Improbability Inc Relativity Alliance
1144
|
Posted - 2013.01.25 15:13:00 -
[105] - Quote
Malcorian Vandsteidt wrote:Um.. The AI's actually do warp out on occasion if they are loosing. Confirming this.
I first noticed it the other day when two Gurista BS's ran from me...
I stared at the overview in surprise, I simply had never seen this behavior from NPC's before. Cloaking being on a ten minute manual cycle timer? (Author: Bree Okanata) Fine. As long as there is a ten minute timer for being docked in a station. Also, you can't stop moving in the game. Just add in a way so every ten minutes you are randomly warped to the nearest other player. Keeps people from going AFK. |
Nikk Narrel
Infinite Improbability Inc Relativity Alliance
1144
|
Posted - 2013.01.25 15:15:00 -
[106] - Quote
Fon Revedhort wrote:Malcorian Vandsteidt wrote:Um.. The AI's actually do warp out on occasion if they are loosing. May be, but that should become a rule rather than an exception. Also, afaik currently scrams won't prevent rats from warping out, so there are 2 issues that require CCP's attention. Among other things, this is strictly in line with Ytterbium ideas of bringing PvP and PvE closer to each other. I think this would solve a lot of issues with ratting at least. Cloaking being on a ten minute manual cycle timer? (Author: Bree Okanata) Fine. As long as there is a ten minute timer for being docked in a station. Also, you can't stop moving in the game. Just add in a way so every ten minutes you are randomly warped to the nearest other player. Keeps people from going AFK. |
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
64
|
Posted - 2013.01.25 17:15:00 -
[107] - Quote
Yep, I have had rats in Null Sec belts warp out on me. It's pretty rare though. I wouln't know if it happens in all belts, because High Sec belt rats melt from bad intentions, and Low Sec is too annoying to fly in. But Null Sec rats have been warping off for a couple of years at least, it's been that long since I was in Null Sec shooting them. |
Newt Rondanse
Magnificent Mayhem Mining
2
|
Posted - 2013.01.25 17:28:00 -
[108] - Quote
Nikk Narrel wrote:Malcorian Vandsteidt wrote:Um.. The AI's actually do warp out on occasion if they are loosing. Confirming this. I first noticed it the other day when two Gurista BS's ran from me... I stared at the overview in surprise, I simply had never seen this behavior from NPC's before. It happens more often in nullsec belts than in other places.
Last time I checked, a point was not sufficient to hold them down, either. |
Aglais
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
178
|
Posted - 2013.01.25 19:33:00 -
[109] - Quote
"i hate carebears and i think that they should die 100% of the time when i come across them they shouldnt have any say in the game since they are playing it wrong and im an awesome 'pvper' and thus am inherently superior and so the carebears have to either not be caught by me or accept their deaths"
I don't understand all the hate towards those who go after PvE gameplay in order to actually make the ISK necessary to do other things. Like actually engage people such as yourself in so called 'good' fights that involve two sides who try. It's like there's only one way to play EVE according to some people. And that is to ONLY do PvP content. You are not allowed to make money. You are only allowed to fight other people and be an elite nullsec fight champion or whatever.
So basically NPCs shouldn't target a new ship that is deemed to be a higher thread than what was attacking first due to having more DPS but less tank and thus a higher priority target? Which will only benefit you, the higher value target?
That doesn't make sense. |
sabre906
Old Spice Syndicate Sailors of the Sacred Spice
658
|
Posted - 2013.01.25 20:28:00 -
[110] - Quote
Aglais wrote:"i hate carebears and i think that they should die 100% of the time when i come across them they shouldnt have any say in the game since they are playing it wrong and im an awesome 'pvper' and thus am inherently superior and so the carebears have to either not be caught by me or accept their deaths"
I don't understand all the hate towards those who go after PvE gameplay in order to actually make the ISK necessary to do other things. Like actually engage people such as yourself in so called 'good' fights that involve two sides who try. It's like there's only one way to play EVE according to some people. And that is to ONLY do PvP content. You are not allowed to make money. You are only allowed to fight other people and be an elite nullsec fight champion or whatever.
So basically NPCs shouldn't target a new ship that is deemed to be a higher thread than what was attacking first due to having more DPS but less tank and thus a higher priority target? Which will only benefit you, the higher value target?
That doesn't make sense.
Ah, that 1337 kb-humper sense of entitlement. Standings Improvement Service https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=19454 |
|
Roderick Grey
Assisted Genocide Black Legion.
235
|
Posted - 2013.01.26 02:49:00 -
[111] - Quote
Aglais wrote:"i hate carebears and i think that they should die 100% of the time when i come across them they shouldnt have any say in the game since they are playing it wrong and im an awesome 'pvper' and thus am inherently superior and so the carebears have to either not be caught by me or accept their deaths"
I don't understand all the hate towards those who go after PvE gameplay in order to actually make the ISK necessary to do other things. Like actually engage people such as yourself in so called 'good' fights that involve two sides who try. It's like there's only one way to play EVE according to some people. And that is to ONLY do PvP content. You are not allowed to make money. You are only allowed to fight other people and be an elite nullsec fight champion or whatever.
So basically NPCs shouldn't target a new ship that is deemed to be a higher thread than what was attacking first due to having more DPS but less tank and thus a higher priority target? Which will only benefit you, the higher value target?
That doesn't make sense.
I don't have any dislike towards carebears at all, I myself do missions to support my pvp habit.
I'm saying that the NPC AI is flawed as the "threat" system isn't adequately taking into consideration who has aggression against what and is instead prioritizing targets who use Warp disruptors/scrams. GÇ£We could learn a lot from crayons; some are sharp, some are pretty, some are dull, while others bright, some have weird names, but they all have learned to live together in the same box.GÇ¥- Special needs division of Fcon. |
Juan Thang
Old American Syndicate Silent Infinity
5
|
Posted - 2013.01.26 06:42:00 -
[112] - Quote
Newt Rondanse wrote:Nikk Narrel wrote:Malcorian Vandsteidt wrote:Um.. The AI's actually do warp out on occasion if they are loosing. Confirming this. I first noticed it the other day when two Gurista BS's ran from me... I stared at the overview in surprise, I simply had never seen this behavior from NPC's before. It happens more often in nullsec belts than in other places. Last time I checked, a point was not sufficient to hold them down, either.
yeah its cop's effort to make stating more PvP oriented, so that PvE players have to fit a disruptor to make sure they don't lose out on the good bounties |
Sigras
Conglomo IMPERIAL LEGI0N
361
|
Posted - 2013.01.26 07:08:00 -
[113] - Quote
This thread deserves the godzilla facepalm
If you cant kill someone in a PvE fit ship with your PvP fit ship while tanking all the rats them you probably shouldnt be using your PvP fit ship . . . especially since you should know what damage type theyre doing and what type theyre tanking for.
That being said, it is an interesting idea to make rats try to warp out but of course, you would have to make the AI as such that if one of them is scrambled they all stay because it would be stupid to warp in on a group of rats and have them all warp out on you but the one you scrambled. |
Katherine Jasmone
18
|
Posted - 2013.01.26 09:38:00 -
[114] - Quote
Roderick Grey wrote:Having to run from ratting tengus and drakes because the rats have switched to you is a terrible feeling.
I think CCP should change the aggression mechanics so that players attacking them take priority over others. I mean, how is attacking the ship that's killing the ship that's attacking you make any sense?
I think CCP should make it the mechanics work like this:
A drake warps into a belt and gains priority 2 aggression from the rats.
The drake attacks one of the rats granting it priority 1 aggression.
The drake gets it's drones out and attacks a frigate rat with them, the drones now have priority 1 aggression aswell, allowing NPC AI to switch in-between their desired targets.
A Cynabal enters the belt and attacks the Drake and gains priority 2 aggression from the rats.
The rats continue attacking the drake, as the drake has type 1 aggression.
The drake dies, the rats switch to the Cynabal as there are no priority 1 targets on field.
How about, no. Rats shouldn't differentiate between mission runner or would-be ganker. You are an enemy of rats to 100% regardless if your intent is to bank the runner or shoot rats. Previously there was no risk to the ganker because the rats lock would stay on the runner now the playing field is more even and you can now call for the w-a-a-a-a-a-a-ambulance.
Yes , I am an alt. Yes, you may put a bounty on me. Yes, I am a forumwarrior/troll. Yes, I have a life. No, I am not posting with my main. Why paint a target on my back? :) |
Roderick Grey
Assisted Genocide Black Legion.
235
|
Posted - 2013.01.26 13:09:00 -
[115] - Quote
Katherine Jasmone wrote:Roderick Grey wrote:Having to run from ratting tengus and drakes because the rats have switched to you is a terrible feeling.
I think CCP should change the aggression mechanics so that players attacking them take priority over others. I mean, how is attacking the ship that's killing the ship that's attacking you make any sense?
I think CCP should make it the mechanics work like this:
A drake warps into a belt and gains priority 2 aggression from the rats.
The drake attacks one of the rats granting it priority 1 aggression.
The drake gets it's drones out and attacks a frigate rat with them, the drones now have priority 1 aggression aswell, allowing NPC AI to switch in-between their desired targets.
A Cynabal enters the belt and attacks the Drake and gains priority 2 aggression from the rats.
The rats continue attacking the drake, as the drake has type 1 aggression.
The drake dies, the rats switch to the Cynabal as there are no priority 1 targets on field. How about, no. Rats shouldn't differentiate between mission runner or would-be ganker. You are an enemy of rats to 100% regardless if your intent is to bank the runner or shoot rats. Previously there was no risk to the ganker because the rats lock would stay on the runner now the playing field is more even and you can now call for the w-a-a-a-a-a-a-ambulance.
The issue is that they switch to the ganker over the pver due to a point, which I don't really think should be much of a factor to rats.
You're kind of right though previously there was little risk, when you're on grid with the pve ship, but think of all the time and effort that leads up to that point, the majority of ratter deaths are due to them not watching local or reading intel, an inattentive player should not be assisted by the very things he's generating an income off.
Also your points of argument have already been brought up and argued against so I recommend you read the comments instead of just the OP before you post. GÇ£We could learn a lot from crayons; some are sharp, some are pretty, some are dull, while others bright, some have weird names, but they all have learned to live together in the same box.GÇ¥- Special needs division of Fcon. |
sabre906
Old Spice Syndicate Sailors of the Sacred Spice
661
|
Posted - 2013.01.26 16:03:00 -
[116] - Quote
Roderick Grey wrote:Katherine Jasmone wrote:Roderick Grey wrote:Having to run from ratting tengus and drakes because the rats have switched to you is a terrible feeling.
I think CCP should change the aggression mechanics so that players attacking them take priority over others. I mean, how is attacking the ship that's killing the ship that's attacking you make any sense?
I think CCP should make it the mechanics work like this:
A drake warps into a belt and gains priority 2 aggression from the rats.
The drake attacks one of the rats granting it priority 1 aggression.
The drake gets it's drones out and attacks a frigate rat with them, the drones now have priority 1 aggression aswell, allowing NPC AI to switch in-between their desired targets.
A Cynabal enters the belt and attacks the Drake and gains priority 2 aggression from the rats.
The rats continue attacking the drake, as the drake has type 1 aggression.
The drake dies, the rats switch to the Cynabal as there are no priority 1 targets on field. How about, no. Rats shouldn't differentiate between mission runner or would-be ganker. You are an enemy of rats to 100% regardless if your intent is to bank the runner or shoot rats. Previously there was no risk to the ganker because the rats lock would stay on the runner now the playing field is more even and you can now call for the w-a-a-a-a-a-a-ambulance. The issue is that they switch to the ganker over the pver due to a point, which I don't really think should be much of a factor to rats. You're kind of right though previously there was little risk, when you're on grid with the pve ship, but think of all the time and effort that leads up to that point, the majority of ratter deaths are due to them not watching local or reading intel, an inattentive player should not be assisted by the very things he's generating an income off. Also your points of argument have already been brought up and argued against so I recommend you read the comments instead of just the OP before you post.
There is a simple solution to your problem - don't fit a point. The carebear's not fitting one, so why are you? Standings Improvement Service https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=19454 |
L0rdF1end
Mainly AFK
66
|
Posted - 2013.02.22 15:10:00 -
[117] - Quote
Still waiting for some fixes CCP please. I'm holding out in hope.. |
Doddy
Dark-Rising
835
|
Posted - 2013.02.22 15:24:00 -
[118] - Quote
Well to make it fair and balanced rats should warp off when outmatched, requiring ratters to have to use points and thus build more threat. Rats seeing the pvper as more threatening to them than the guy killing them because he points the guy killing them is probably the stupidest thiing ccp have come up with in years. |
Doddy
Dark-Rising
835
|
Posted - 2013.02.22 15:27:00 -
[119] - Quote
Katherine Jasmone wrote:Roderick Grey wrote:Having to run from ratting tengus and drakes because the rats have switched to you is a terrible feeling.
I think CCP should change the aggression mechanics so that players attacking them take priority over others. I mean, how is attacking the ship that's killing the ship that's attacking you make any sense?
I think CCP should make it the mechanics work like this:
A drake warps into a belt and gains priority 2 aggression from the rats.
The drake attacks one of the rats granting it priority 1 aggression.
The drake gets it's drones out and attacks a frigate rat with them, the drones now have priority 1 aggression aswell, allowing NPC AI to switch in-between their desired targets.
A Cynabal enters the belt and attacks the Drake and gains priority 2 aggression from the rats.
The rats continue attacking the drake, as the drake has type 1 aggression.
The drake dies, the rats switch to the Cynabal as there are no priority 1 targets on field. How about, no. Rats shouldn't differentiate between mission runner or would-be ganker. You are an enemy of rats to 100% regardless if your intent is to bank the runner or shoot rats. Previously there was no risk to the ganker because the rats lock would stay on the runner now the playing field is more even and you can now call for the w-a-a-a-a-a-a-ambulance.
How is the playing field more even when the rats will always help the guy attacking them (unless the ratter is ratting in a bubble or is scrambling rats himself for some reason).
|
Nikk Narrel
Infinite Improbability Inc Unclaimed.
1340
|
Posted - 2013.02.22 15:55:00 -
[120] - Quote
How about this?
You can get the rats AI to ignore you in a fight, but the consequences are that you take a security hit. After all, you are assisting pirates, and as such bear responsibility for their victory against forces attempting to reduce their number.
Enemy combatants... tsk tsk, the empires frown on that.
Now, if you stick around after, and betray your new allies by trying to kill them, they call in reinforcements against you. (A full spawn that drops no added loot, they had no time to pick up any on the way over) Think of it as the reinforcements hate double crossers more than honest enemies. Cloaking being on a ten minute manual cycle timer? (Author: Bree Okanata) Fine. As long as there is a ten minute timer for being docked in a station. Also, you can't stop moving in the game. Just add in a way so every ten minutes you are randomly warped to the nearest other player. Keeps people from going AFK. |
|
Radhe Amatin
Caldari High Prime P R I M E
6
|
Posted - 2013.02.22 16:28:00 -
[121] - Quote
oh and CCP while you are at "fixing" npc aggro why not add a transponder to PVE pilots so gankers can see them on solar system map.... we don`t want to be to much of a hustle to them. we wouldn't dare make their life harder. :) |
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
614
|
Posted - 2013.02.22 17:25:00 -
[122] - Quote
Roderick Grey wrote:And NPC's don't shoot everyone, I have never had NPCs assist me in an anom against a pve ship post patch.
Well, all I can say is that you really need to start doing pve, you'll see how much those rats will help you when someone tries to gank you, and you can even get his killmail.
This is a cup [__| please fill it with your tears. *removed inappropriate ASCII art signature* - CCP Eterne |
L0rdF1end
Mainly AFK
66
|
Posted - 2013.02.22 17:34:00 -
[123] - Quote
Doddy wrote:Well to make it fair and balanced rats should warp off when outmatched, requiring ratters to have to use points and thus build more threat. Rats seeing the pvper as more threatening to them than the guy killing them because he points the guy killing them is probably the stupidest thiing ccp have come up with in years.
My Hero.
Are you hearing this CCP?
He just called you guys Stupid. :)
I have to agree, |
SoOza N'GasZ
Geese Jugglers
49
|
Posted - 2013.02.22 18:37:00 -
[124] - Quote
Kestrix wrote:LOL Pvp'er chased off by mission rats...
You do realise that the rats switch to you because your the biggest threat. There is not a first come first served system in combat .
You are working off the philosophy that the enemy of my enemy is my friend and it's not true. Ether bring a ship with a bigger tank or choose another profession :)
Edit: Sorry thought I was in GD then... that's an interesting idea but I'll have to give this one the thumbs down.
Npc's should behave like real living beings ... in this sense them attacking the biggest threat they could truly say: ok the drake was against them and cynabal was only there for the drake so they leave the drake alone... also they could think **** the cyna may be attacking drake but he will more easily kill us after and attack him first... so maybe both options should be subject to chance. Legba |
Buzzy Warstl
The Strontium Asylum
483
|
Posted - 2013.02.22 18:57:00 -
[125] - Quote
SoOza N'GasZ wrote:Kestrix wrote:LOL Pvp'er chased off by mission rats...
You do realise that the rats switch to you because your the biggest threat. There is not a first come first served system in combat .
You are working off the philosophy that the enemy of my enemy is my friend and it's not true. Ether bring a ship with a bigger tank or choose another profession :)
Edit: Sorry thought I was in GD then... that's an interesting idea but I'll have to give this one the thumbs down. Npc's should behave like real living beings ... in this sense them attacking the biggest threat they could truly say: ok the drake was against them and cynabal was only there for the drake so they leave the drake alone... also they could think **** the cyna may be attacking drake but he will more easily kill us after and attack him first... so maybe both options should be subject to chance. If the NPC's behaved at all rationally they'd warp out as soon as an egger hit grid.
Just sayin' http://www.mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm Richard Bartle: Players who suit MUDs |
Aglais
Liberation Army BricK sQuAD.
185
|
Posted - 2013.02.22 20:02:00 -
[126] - Quote
Roderick Grey wrote: I don't have any dislike towards carebears at all, I myself do missions to support my pvp habit.
I'm saying that the NPC AI is flawed as the "threat" system isn't adequately taking into consideration who has aggression against what and is instead prioritizing targets who use Warp disruptors/scrams.
I dunno. That sounds like they're going after a higher priority target that is more dangerous to their well being because NPCs can and will warp off if an engagement goes poorly for them, much like players. |
Vegine
Sphere Foundation
16
|
Posted - 2013.02.22 23:42:00 -
[127] - Quote
gosh this mud fest....
The "problem" has multiple components:
1- Local warning / intel mechanic gives pve'er too easy an warning
2.-after 1 is taken care of, then its rat aggro mechanic, either favors pvp'er too much or favor pve'er too much. CCP need to tweak it so it won't give either side a whole sail advantage. 50% new on grid ship targetting chance by rats perhaps?
Forget about revertting back to old AI or getting an new AI that will NEVER target pvp ships on grid unless aggressed arguments. Those clearly give pvp'er the advantage in the engagement. The "but carebear is too hard to catch in the 1st place" means intel/warning component needs fixing, NOT the rat aggro and pve mechanic, which is a separate issue. |
Sura Sadiva
Entropic Tactical Crew
297
|
Posted - 2013.02.23 04:52:00 -
[128] - Quote
Vegine wrote:The "but carebear is too hard to catch in the 1st place" means intel/warning component needs fixing, NOT the rat aggro and pve mechanic, which is a separate issue.
Intel/warning component to be fixed?? This people not only is unable to catch a PvE drake in belt, they also get blown by the rats in the process.
They fail not only at PVP but also at PVE, in a single warp; how is this an intel problem?? Maybe they have to ask to some missioner how to fit their ship to survive NPC aggro.
Not like EVE can always be adapted to babysitting anyone.
For years we heard misisoners complaining cause "I've no chance against a ganker cause my ship is fitted for PVE" and the (right) answer to them always was "hey, it's EVE even if you're misisoning you have to fit prepared to PVP" or "bring a friend". Mow - since is so easy - why cannot they do the same?? |
Roderick Grey
Broski North Black Legion.
262
|
Posted - 2013.02.23 05:22:00 -
[129] - Quote
Sura Sadiva wrote: For years we heard misisoners complaining cause "I've no chance against a ganker cause my ship is fitted for PVE" and the (right) answer to them always was "hey, it's EVE even if you're misisoning you have to fit prepared to PVP" or "bring a friend". Mow - since is so easy - why cannot they do the same??
A pvp ship cannot be fitted to deal with PvE and vice versa, don't use old arguments against this, and the thing is, a PvE obviously doesn't want to fight other players and therefore shouldn't be caught in the first place. GÇ£We could learn a lot from crayons; some are sharp, some are pretty, some are dull, while others bright, some have weird names, but they all have learned to live together in the same box.GÇ¥- Special needs division of Fcon. |
Radhe Amatin
Caldari High Prime P R I M E
7
|
Posted - 2013.02.23 06:07:00 -
[130] - Quote
Roderick Grey wrote:Sura Sadiva wrote: For years we heard misisoners complaining cause "I've no chance against a ganker cause my ship is fitted for PVE" and the (right) answer to them always was "hey, it's EVE even if you're misisoning you have to fit prepared to PVP" or "bring a friend". Mow - since is so easy - why cannot they do the same??
A pvp ship cannot be fitted to deal with PvE and vice versa, don't use old arguments against this, and the thing is, a PvE obviously doesn't want to fight other players and therefore shouldn't be caught in the first place. what u are saying makes sense, but when u do catch a pve'er u shouldn't have full npc support in taking them down.Besides when u are hunting a pve'er lets say a battlecruiser, you already have some intel on them, like what dmg will he mostly do , what resistances he will tank. example: if u find a drake, stop and think, look at pilot info, if hes a 3 4 year old player theres a high chance his running a maxed skilled drake, witch can easily omni tank with 3 hardners (1xem, 2x inv , 2 x LSE, 1 DCU II and have 70+ resistances across the board,abd still be able to regenerate some 350 ehp/s), so taking that on solo kinda hard for a frigate cruiser,even if they are pirate faction or navy,or even t2. Key to solo pvp is to have good knowledge about ships capabilities,to know what fit are mostly used by players, to know when and how to engage them in combat and most important is to know to pick your fights. |
|
Iminent Penance
Interstellar Military Assistance Corporation Black Core Alliance
35
|
Posted - 2013.02.23 10:02:00 -
[131] - Quote
So wait, because people kill/beat you easily when you feel you have an advantage, you feel the game should change some mechanics entirely... so you can kill them easily rather than find another solution.... You serioulsy want PVE to be ****** easy for bots to manage aggro, just so you can PVP PVE-ers... that's the only reason this came up?
does anybody else get the idea this guy...
IS A F***ING GENIUS?! |
L0rdF1end
Mainly AFK
66
|
Posted - 2013.02.23 11:30:00 -
[132] - Quote
Sura Sadiva wrote: For years we heard misisoners complaining cause "I've no chance against a ganker cause my ship is fitted for PVE" and the (right) answer to them always was "hey, it's EVE even if you're misisoning you have to fit prepared to PVP" or "bring a friend". Mow - since is so easy - why cannot they do the same??
This is Bull, you can easily fit a dual boat to deal with PVP threats.
This is about Rat AI being equal for both parties, not a complete role reversal which is what it is now for the solo hunter.
Rats need to be either removed from the equation or treat both parties equally or if you want actual AI..kill the biggest threat or what was blowing the crap out of them before the new guy arrived on grid. |
Sura Sadiva
Entropic Tactical Crew
297
|
Posted - 2013.02.23 13:27:00 -
[133] - Quote
Roderick Grey wrote:A pvp ship cannot be fitted to deal with PvE and vice versa, don't use old arguments against this, and the thing is, a PvE obviously doesn't want to fight other players and therefore shouldn't be caught in the first place.
Yes. But yhe thread is about "solo PVP"; in your scenario:
1. your opponent is suposed to have no option to fight back and should only try to warp away 2. the NPC should not hurt you nut help your kill (because you are more cool).
In this scenario where is the part where you share any kind of risk?
Player ratting or misisoning ar enot there for your personal amousement, they're playing as you are. But you demand their gameplay to be automatically obliterated to enable an easy mode for you. You are only lobbing, don't care for EVE general gameplay.
But the thread was about "solo PVP"; so, please, tell me more about this kind of solo PVP where you're in a PVP ship, facing an opponent in PVE ship that is not suposed to do anything but warp away, where you risk nothing and NPC do all the job fo you. |
Roderick Grey
Broski North Black Legion.
262
|
Posted - 2013.02.23 14:50:00 -
[134] - Quote
Sura Sadiva wrote:Roderick Grey wrote:A pvp ship cannot be fitted to deal with PvE and vice versa, don't use old arguments against this, and the thing is, a PvE obviously doesn't want to fight other players and therefore shouldn't be caught in the first place. Yes. But yhe thread is about "solo PVP"; in your scenario: 1. your opponent is suposed to have no option to fight back and should only try to warp away 2. the NPC should not hurt you nut help your kill (because you are more cool). In this scenario where is the part where you share any kind of risk? Player ratting or misisoning ar enot there for your personal amousement, they're playing as you are. But you demand their gameplay to be automatically obliterated to enable an easy mode for you. You are only lobbing, don't care for EVE general gameplay. But the thread was about "solo PVP"; so, please, tell me more about this kind of solo PVP where you're in a PVP ship, facing an opponent in PVE ship that is not suposed to do anything but warp away, where you risk nothing and NPC do all the job fo you.
The reason I think NPCs should assist me is because that's what a logical aggression mechanic would do.
The risk is where I'm in their space, they can form up a defence fleet and kill me before I can find someone, they could even ask for help in local when/if I tackle them.
The fact is:
Only an idiot would be caught by someone roaming in their space.
Agression mechanics used to work like this, and Eve/Null was perfectly fine with it, if you think reverting back to the old model or changing it would "obliterate" anyone's playstyle then you have a lot to learn.
If you want to insult a playstyle you know nothing about you can, I'm not going to stop you looking ignorant.
GÇ£We could learn a lot from crayons; some are sharp, some are pretty, some are dull, while others bright, some have weird names, but they all have learned to live together in the same box.GÇ¥- Special needs division of Fcon. |
L0rdF1end
Mainly AFK
67
|
Posted - 2013.02.23 16:20:00 -
[135] - Quote
Roderick Grey wrote:Sura Sadiva wrote:Roderick Grey wrote:A pvp ship cannot be fitted to deal with PvE and vice versa, don't use old arguments against this, and the thing is, a PvE obviously doesn't want to fight other players and therefore shouldn't be caught in the first place. Yes. But yhe thread is about "solo PVP"; in your scenario: 1. your opponent is suposed to have no option to fight back and should only try to warp away 2. the NPC should not hurt you nut help your kill (because you are more cool). In this scenario where is the part where you share any kind of risk? Player ratting or misisoning ar enot there for your personal amousement, they're playing as you are. But you demand their gameplay to be automatically obliterated to enable an easy mode for you. You are only lobbing, don't care for EVE general gameplay. But the thread was about "solo PVP"; so, please, tell me more about this kind of solo PVP where you're in a PVP ship, facing an opponent in PVE ship that is not suposed to do anything but warp away, where you risk nothing and NPC do all the job fo you. The reason I think NPCs should assist me is because that's what a logical aggression mechanic would do. The risk is where I'm in their space, they can form up a defence fleet and kill me before I can find someone, they could even ask for help in local when/if I tackle them. The fact is: Only an idiot would be caught by someone roaming in their space. Agression mechanics used to work like this, and Eve/Null was perfectly fine with it, if you think reverting back to the old model or changing it would "obliterate" anyone's playstyle then you have a lot to learn. If you want to insult a playstyle you know nothing about you can, I'm not going to stop you looking ignorant.
Well said that man. Clearly most people just dont get it. |
Sura Sadiva
Entropic Tactical Crew
298
|
Posted - 2013.02.23 16:39:00 -
[136] - Quote
Roderick Grey wrote: Only an idiot would be caught by someone roaming in their space.
Agression mechanics used to work like this, and Eve/Null was perfectly fine with it, if you think reverting back to the old model or changing it would "obliterate" anyone's playstyle then you have a lot to learn.
Oh boy, being rude do not prove you're right, only prove you're rude.
Only idiots have problem in delaing with belt rats.
The mechanics you're talking about (like was something challenging and relevant) is not changed at all, is exaclty ythe same. Only change is a slighly improvement of rats AI that make them a bit less predictable and add a bit more some risk; and this is your problem.
Everyone else in Eve already adapted to it and elaborated new tactics. The game cannot be always downgraded to babysit a small group (always the same ones) unable to properly manage in an NPC site. |
Roderick Grey
Broski North Black Legion.
263
|
Posted - 2013.02.23 17:52:00 -
[137] - Quote
Sura Sadiva wrote:Roderick Grey wrote: Only an idiot would be caught by someone roaming in their space.
Agression mechanics used to work like this, and Eve/Null was perfectly fine with it, if you think reverting back to the old model or changing it would "obliterate" anyone's playstyle then you have a lot to learn.
Oh boy, being rude do not prove you're right, only prove you're rude. Only idiots have problem in delaing with belt rats. The mechanics you're talking about (like was something challenging and relevant) is not changed at all, is exaclty ythe same. Only change is a slighly improvement of rats AI that make them a bit less predictable and add a bit more some risk; and this is your problem. Everyone else in Eve already adapted to it and elaborated new tactics. The game cannot be always downgraded to babysit a small group (always the same ones) unable to properly manage in an NPC site.
I'm sorry if you thought I was referring to you directly, when I claimed only an idiot would be caught by a roamer, however I do consider someone who can't read intel, local, scan, corp, and/or alliance to be a person of low perception and intelligence, if you have a habit of getting tackled and felt I was referring to you directly it wasn't my intention.
The only change is that a vast majority of rat agression is generated from a warp disruptor, regardless of what it's being used on, which causes the rats to attack the ewar user almost automatically.
"Everyone else..." please, you and I both know your fallacies aren't going to do you any good in this discussion.
I can adapt yes, I can bring friends, I can not attack targets that has any tank whatsoever, but this damages solo pvp, which is my point. GÇ£We could learn a lot from crayons; some are sharp, some are pretty, some are dull, while others bright, some have weird names, but they all have learned to live together in the same box.GÇ¥- Special needs division of Fcon. |
L0rdF1end
Mainly AFK
67
|
Posted - 2013.02.25 13:08:00 -
[138] - Quote
Poking this thread again. Anymore to add here, speak up people, lets get some attention to this. |
Asuka Solo
Stark Fujikawa Stark Enterprises
2288
|
Posted - 2013.02.25 14:07:00 -
[139] - Quote
The tears coming from the would-be-griefer failures in this topic is delicious.
Carry on. Eve is about Capital ships, WiS, Boobs, PI and Isk! |
Mag's
the united Negative Ten.
14279
|
Posted - 2013.02.25 14:37:00 -
[140] - Quote
Asuka Solo wrote:The tears coming from the would-be-griefer failures in this topic is delicious.
Carry on. I have to agree with Asuka tbh.
You've taken full advantage of bad AI for years, time to adapt and HTFU.
Vote Malcanis for CSM 8 |
|
Onomerous
Shockwave Innovations Shockwave Sovereign Industries
24
|
Posted - 2013.02.25 16:56:00 -
[141] - Quote
Tears from Null/Low sec pvp'ers? Say it isn't so.
Posting to confirm there isn't a problem. Adjust and continue to profit. |
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
88
|
Posted - 2013.02.25 17:53:00 -
[142] - Quote
Roderick Grey wrote: I can adapt yes, I can bring friends, I can not attack targets that has any tank whatsoever, but this damages solo pvp, which is my point.
So requiring that you do *something at all* is damaging to your profession of griefing effectivly defenseless ships? Having 100% of the initiative, probable intel on the fit of your target, and the mechanical advantage of a PvP fit vs a PvE fit isn't enough, you have to have environmental dps assisting you as well? I don't think you are going to get alot of sympathy even from your fellow Mouth Breathing Baby Eaters.
Given that the devs have a stated goal of making pve and pvp fits similar so that the 2 play styles can interact meaningfully, you may want to consider an easier game... |
Rico Minali
The Straw Men Dark Therapy
1239
|
Posted - 2013.02.25 18:03:00 -
[143] - Quote
Paikis wrote:The NPC rats will chose to swap to the attacker every time though, due to their hate of EWAR (scram+web). The Tengu could have been in that site killing NPCs for half an hour, and the second you turn a scram on, the rats will swap to you.
This could maybe use some tweaking. Perhaps make scrams and webs, or even just long points immune to this kind of hate?
Can't hold your target down without a point. Using a point will guarantee you get agro 100% of the time.
Seems to actively discourage ganking.
Yep, this seems to have been a stealth PVP nerf. NPCs will instantly change targets to attack anyone who uses a tackle mod on a player even if it is a cruiser attacking say a vindicator. The argument can not be used that the cruiser (or any other ship) is a more dangerous target, it simply doesnt work that way. The rats will ALWAYS target and attack the new aggressor instead of continuing to attack the person who has been shooting them for who knows how long. Trust me, I almost know what I'm doing. |
Nikk Narrel
Infinite Improbability Inc Unclaimed.
1369
|
Posted - 2013.02.25 18:06:00 -
[144] - Quote
Rico Minali wrote:Paikis wrote:The NPC rats will chose to swap to the attacker every time though, due to their hate of EWAR (scram+web). The Tengu could have been in that site killing NPCs for half an hour, and the second you turn a scram on, the rats will swap to you.
This could maybe use some tweaking. Perhaps make scrams and webs, or even just long points immune to this kind of hate?
Can't hold your target down without a point. Using a point will guarantee you get agro 100% of the time.
Seems to actively discourage ganking. Yep, this seems to have been a stealth PVP nerf. NPCs will instantly change targets to attack anyone who uses a tackle mod on a player even if it is a cruiser attacking say a vindicator. The argument can not be used that the cruiser (or any other ship) is a more dangerous target, it simply doesnt work that way. The rats will ALWAYS target and attack the new aggressor instead of continuing to attack the person who has been shooting them for who knows how long. So, wait for the NPC to leave, OR use a ship tough enough to handle it.
Your attack plan seems to be based around the failure of a PvE pilot to fly a ship capable of handling both the NPC as well as the player threat at the same time. Why should you expect better results if you have that same failure? Cloaking being on a ten minute manual cycle timer? (Author: Bree Okanata) Fine. As long as there is a ten minute timer for being docked in a station. Also, you can't stop moving in the game. Just add in a way so every ten minutes you are randomly warped to the nearest other player. Keeps people from going AFK. |
Ager Agemo
Imperial Collective
227
|
Posted - 2013.02.25 18:11:00 -
[145] - Quote
Is it so hard to wait for the players to be done with the sites and then kill them?
or wait maybe you could you know... take advantage that by the time you warp in his tank must be half broken and just finish the npc job and warp away?
most of time you find a player on a site his shields or armor will be by half and his capacitor at 40% they are crippled and weakened ships that most likely have half loaded banks and are not even paying attention.
asking or easier targets its going way too far.
also a properly fitted PVP ship will easily tank the npcs for a while along with the ****** up mission runner
or is it that maybe you are trying to kill a drake with a ******* frigate and want the npcs to help you with their DPS? |
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
89
|
Posted - 2013.02.25 18:24:00 -
[146] - Quote
Rico Minali wrote:
Yep, this seems to have been a stealth PVP nerf. NPCs will instantly change targets to attack anyone who uses a tackle mod on a player even if it is a cruiser attacking say a vindicator. The argument can not be used that the cruiser (or any other ship) is a more dangerous target, it simply doesnt work that way. The rats will ALWAYS target and attack the new aggressor instead of continuing to attack the person who has been shooting them for who knows how long.
Or we can call it a sort of PvE buff. I know, EVE is all about PvP, and PvE boats should wither and die at the approach of a PvP ship's aggressive intention, but there are a great many pilots that enjoy exploring and exploiting the environment that CCP started to build into this game but then pretty much dropped all development on it in favor of the PvP stuff.
As a PvE pilot, I also despise this version of the AI, because it eats drones like candy making my prefered ships all but useless except in PvP, where they were never that well suited due to smartbombs and people just shooting my damage out of space.
Bottom line is that the AI needed, and still needs, fixing--- and a good deal of that fix involves things not attached to the AI directly, like making drones WAAAAAAAAAAAY tougher than they are, or at least alot less hittable, adding in some aggro mechanics probably in the form of new Ewar to attract or re-direct target locks, allowing larger ships to tank for smaller ships based on signiture size (Frigate hugs up to a BS and shots directed at the frig hit the BS instead), and/or a whole host of new things that EVE should have had long ago had any Devs thought that PvE was worth anything if someone wasn't shooting you over it.
Part of your loadout when hunting ratters should obviously be some way to handle the rats. You should have options other than tank it, though that should be viable (most rats do the same damage they are weak against, so your opponent will often be doing the same damage as the rats if they have the option--plan accordingly). If you had a way to shed target locks, or hide in the shadow of your larget target, or redirect your locks to your target, etc, the game would be more fun because more options on doing a thing means more fun getting it done. |
Onomerous
Shockwave Innovations Shockwave Sovereign Industries
24
|
Posted - 2013.02.25 19:55:00 -
[147] - Quote
Ager Agemo wrote:Is it so hard to wait for the players to be done with the sites and then kill them?
or wait maybe you could you know... take advantage that by the time you warp in his tank must be half broken and just finish the npc job and warp away?
most of time you find a player on a site his shields or armor will be by half and his capacitor at 40% they are crippled and weakened ships that most likely have half loaded banks and are not even paying attention.
asking or easier targets its going way too far.
also a properly fitted PVP ship will easily tank the npcs for a while along with the ****** up mission runner
or is it that maybe you are trying to kill a drake with a ******* frigate and want the npcs to help you with their DPS?
This!! Adapt and you can continue to prosper.
|
Pan Dora
Stardust Enterprises
2
|
Posted - 2013.02.26 00:10:00 -
[148] - Quote
while I agree there is much fail to PVPer being killed by NPCs there is no way someone in his right mind considering the new AI (maybe it stands for Artificial Ignorance?) is working as intended. (maybe they think "This game mechanic its broken but i will not complain since its helping me")
If the idea its to make NPC act more like players CCP need to consider:
-player will not put dozen eWar/tackle modules on one target while letting another target free to decimate your entire fleet -player will not put all BS sized guns against frigs for ****** to no damage while there is bigger target that can be killed fast. Even more if there is dessies/ceptor/afs to deal with this kind of threat in their fleet. -players will see a big difference between "tackle/eWar/DPS on me" and "tackle/eWar/DPS on my target" -players will avoid being killed (usually warping off, but sometimes getting under the guns or just burning away from who is dealing damage on then).
Im not proposing any specific behavior for NPC, that its up to CCP to figure, but there is no doubt the actual AI its broken in many ways.
|
Trinkets friend
Minmatar-Amarr Man-Boy Love Association
925
|
Posted - 2013.02.26 02:04:00 -
[149] - Quote
Mike Voidstar wrote:Rico Minali wrote:
Yep, this seems to have been a stealth PVP nerf. NPCs will instantly change targets to attack anyone who uses a tackle mod on a player even if it is a cruiser attacking say a vindicator. The argument can not be used that the cruiser (or any other ship) is a more dangerous target, it simply doesnt work that way. The rats will ALWAYS target and attack the new aggressor instead of continuing to attack the person who has been shooting them for who knows how long.
Or we can call it a sort of PvE buff. I know, EVE is all about PvP, and PvE boats should wither and die at the approach of a PvP ship's aggressive intention, but there are a great many pilots that enjoy exploring and exploiting the environment that CCP started to build into this game but then pretty much dropped all development on it in favor of the PvP stuff. As a PvE pilot, I also despise this version of the AI, because it eats drones like candy making my prefered ships all but useless except in PvP, where they were never that well suited due to smartbombs and people just shooting my damage out of space. Bottom line is that the AI needed, and still needs, fixing--- and a good deal of that fix involves things not attached to the AI directly, like making drones WAAAAAAAAAAAY tougher than they are, or at least alot less hittable, adding in some aggro mechanics probably in the form of new Ewar to attract or re-direct target locks, allowing larger ships to tank for smaller ships based on signiture size (Frigate hugs up to a BS and shots directed at the frig hit the BS instead), and/or a whole host of new things that EVE should have had long ago had any Devs thought that PvE was worth anything if someone wasn't shooting you over it. Part of your loadout when hunting ratters should obviously be some way to handle the rats. You should have options other than tank it, though that should be viable (most rats do the same damage they are weak against, so your opponent will often be doing the same damage as the rats if they have the option--plan accordingly). If you had a way to shed target locks, or hide in the shadow of your larget target, or redirect your locks to your target, etc, the game would be more fun because more options on doing a thing means more fun getting it done.
Havving read all your misguided thoughts on this subject, I am saddened but not surprised to see you promulgate this list of idiocy as a fix to the AI.
Yes, it sucks that your drones get eaten if you are in a lone sentry domi. But making drones tougher and harder to hit isn't a solution except versus rats, which it seems, is all you know how to do (and yes, this is me disparaging your ability as an EVE player). It is already hard enough to burn drones off you in PVP, so making them harder targets is dumb. You will realise this when you are damped out by a Maulus and killed by his drones, unable to do anything. Well, if you ever stop carebearing.
The idea of shots directed at a frigate missing it and hitting the BS it's orbiting? Yeah, sounds like a great recipe for derp. "Oh halp guise I is tackuld by dwamiel, shewt at heem!" you will say, as you herpaderp in a belt. Your mates in tornados warp in to help you, and shoot at the evil Dramiel, and hit you instead, instapopping you. herpaderp.
Your idea of target redirection is interesting. So, you fit one, and the rat aggro switches away. Your foes fit one, and you are back to square one. Falcon fits one, and when you do manage to lock him, you end up locking an asteroid instead. EVE HAS BEEN WON BY YOU!!!
Your solutions to the problem outlined by the OP decribes are irrelevant, idiotic and impractical.
I agree with the OP, by the by. previously when you went hunting in nullsec for carriers, with a gang, you would send in a ship to grab point, and then spike into Local to effect the gank. Arazus were great, so were cloaky T3's. You only needed to hold point long enough for your gang to warp in.
Now? You can't dare uncloak anything, or send in a solo ship - even if it has a tank - because you will cop the full room aggro, regardless, right up front. The fools saying "fit a tank", well, last time i checked you can't PVP in a PVE ship, and vice versa. Something you are all wilfully ignoring.
So, yes. This is a buff to carebearing. it isn't even about solo PVP, it's about PVE being its own deterrence to gankers, in nullsec.
Taking submissions for "Trinkets friendly Advice Column" via evemail or private convo in-game. Anonymity sorta guaranteed. http://www.localectomy.blogspot.com.au
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Samuel Wess
Happy Folks Happy Cartel
10
|
Posted - 2013.02.26 08:17:00 -
[150] - Quote
Solo pvp -ers are too few to matter, and the blobs are paying the subscriptions/plexes so it's normal that the AI is favouring them. Working as intended. |
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Sura Sadiva
Entropic Tactical Crew
313
|
Posted - 2013.02.26 10:27:00 -
[151] - Quote
Samuel Wess wrote:Solo pvp -ers are too few to matter, and the blobs are paying the subscriptions/plexes so it's normal that the AI is favouring them. Working as intended.
Warping in a belt, setting a point on an AFK drake and let the rats do all the job is not "solo PVP", not even close. It's an entry-level gameplay, riskless and unskilled. Just the fact that when this people have to deal with belt rats (not even missionr ats, just belt rats, lol) it becomes "impossible" for them proves this.
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Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
25
|
Posted - 2013.02.26 12:47:00 -
[152] - Quote
One day, we will go a full week without a "revert NPC AI so I can kill ratters easily" thread appearing in F&I. |
Buzzy Warstl
The Strontium Asylum
486
|
Posted - 2013.02.26 14:22:00 -
[153] - Quote
File this one with "there's someone in my system and they're hiding so I can't rat!" http://www.mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm Richard Bartle: Players who suit MUDs |
Onomerous
Shockwave Innovations Shockwave Sovereign Industries
25
|
Posted - 2013.02.26 14:37:00 -
[154] - Quote
Buzzy Warstl wrote:File this one with "there's someone in my system and they're hiding so I can't rat!"
Agreed. |
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
91
|
Posted - 2013.02.26 16:01:00 -
[155] - Quote
Trinkets friend wrote: Yes, it sucks that your drones get eaten if you are in a lone sentry domi. But making drones tougher and harder to hit isn't a solution except versus rats, which it seems, is all you know how to do (and yes, this is me disparaging your ability as an EVE player). It is already hard enough to burn drones off you in PVP, so making them harder targets is dumb. You will realise this when you are damped out by a Maulus and killed by his drones, unable to do anything. Well, if you ever stop carebearing.
I'm not in a sentry Domi, I hate sentries. I've seen people kill mulitple waves of drones with smartbombs easily enough. I don't deny that they can be used, but they are hardly the most dangerous weapon out there. In fact, in your theoretical Malus the thing causing you the most trouble is the damps. I know plenty about using drones, both fighting them and using them.
You should also bear in mind that I don't feel the AI shooting solo gankers is a problem. The AI is a problem, but most of that problem is that it has been introduced in a vacuume with few tools and little regard of how to deal with it.
Trinkets friend wrote: The idea of shots directed at a frigate missing it and hitting the BS it's orbiting? Yeah, sounds like a great recipe for derp. "Oh halp guise I is tackuld by dwamiel, shewt at heem!" you will say, as you herpaderp in a belt. Your mates in tornados warp in to help you, and shoot at the evil Dramiel, and hit you instead, instapopping you. herpaderp.
That would be one implication of that idea, that a tackler could use his target as cover. What I have in mind is more granular than that--- basing it on signiture size and the resolution of the guns would mean that smaller guns would be less effected, promoting the idea that you match up ship classes against eachother. The further you get out of class, the harder it is to pick out the smaller signiture for the larger one. Your theoretical Tornadoes would be the wrong tool for the job unless substancial effort in the fits went into sensor boosters and such to improve their ability to focus on smaller targets.
This is again less of an idea to fix the AI as it applies to PvP as it is a way of dealing with it's implications when applied to small fleets in PvE, which was hurt just as much for the same reasons. I like to hang out and mission with my friends. We used to be able to fly differently and have had to adapt in a number of ways as well. This idea would allow more agressive fit ships with lighter tanks to be included in my fleets again since we could anchor the fleet on a battlecruiser or battleship as we used to do. I don't mind that the AI switches targets, or tries to chase our frigs down with their frigs, I just want a tool to deal with it other than everybody comes in a ship capable of tanking the whole room at once. I would think this is something you approve of as it would indeed help you to kill big ships with small ships in missions again.
Trinkets friend wrote: Your idea of target redirection is interesting. So, you fit one, and the rat aggro switches away. Your foes fit one, and you are back to square one. Falcon fits one, and when you do manage to lock him, you end up locking an asteroid instead.
This would again be an idea that would have counters, probably in the form ECCM modules, sensor boosters, or both. If they are going to start introducing AI aggro mechanics then they need to also supply the tools of dealing with that. Other games use abilites that generate and shed aggro, in EVE this would be best represented as forms of aggro. Rather than deflecting targets at random heavier defended ships in the fleet could use Ewar that redirected locks onto themselves. An aggressive version could deflect locks onto a chosen enemy ship. I don't deny that this would play havoc as people would have to watch what they shoot at, fit themselves to deal with it, and in general do more than lock and fire.
Once again, this is more focused on PvE, as a way of dealing with the new AI. It would be useful for PvP as well, but just as you care nothing for carebears, I really care little for gankers as well. I'm willing to come to the table and discuss ideas to improve everybodies game, but I am not willing to pay to be your chew toy.
Trinkets friend wrote: Now? You can't dare uncloak anything, or send in a solo ship - even if it has a tank - because you will cop the full room aggro, regardless, right up front. The fools saying "fit a tank", well, last time i checked you can't PVP in a PVE ship, and vice versa. Something you are all wilfully ignoring.
Nope, not ignoring it. You are Wrong. There are 2 primary differences in the 2 playstyles:
1. Tanking. Active Tanks cannot handle the level of DPS a good PvP ship puts out. They are in general built to withstand about half that DPS indefinitely, but the actual hit points are comparatively thin, so once you break that they usually go down pretty quick. They also usually have a sizable hole in their resists since to achieve that high level of resistance to the rat they don't have the option of fitting omni. The thicker buffer tanks of PvP ships completely outclass an active tank in the short term fights that usually happen in PvP.
2. The use of Ewar and Cap Warfare. Ewar, and all the ships bonused for it, are pretty much useless in PvE where you face hordes of enemies that are immune to it's effects and you could only affect a few of them anyway. As a result much of Ewar is ignored by carebears unless they are fighting a group that makes extensive use of it, and even then the nature of NPC rats makes such measures useless and they usually just endure it and/or make use of tatics that mitigate the effect. Against single targets in PvP it's very powerful.
You could PvP in a PvE ship, but the fights would no longer be one sided. |
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
91
|
Posted - 2013.02.26 20:25:00 -
[156] - Quote
I will add that since the devs have stated they want PvE and PvP closer together and able to interact meaningfully, you will likely see more of this sort of thing.
Compromise means both sides have to move, and a good compromise leaves all parties feeling like they have been shafted.
It's a founding tennant of EVE that nonconsensual PvP will happen, this is what allows the Mouth Breathing Baby Eaters in this game the freedom to grief as they do without real consequence. Now we are seeing the flipside: nonconsensual PvE.
Just as I am expected to compromise my PvE fits to handle PvP in areas where that is more likely to happen, so too will the gankers be expected to compromise their PvP fit within mission pockets and such. No longer can you ignore the environment while your target has to somehow contend with both elements of the game---almost always by simply quitting their game in favor of yours with an end result of no one having fun.
In the end it is likely a healthy change for the game, though as I've pointed out it's an imcomplete project at this point. There is much more that needs to be done in terms of the AI's behavior and how we interact and influence that behavior.
The main difference here is that while I agree that the AI and surrounding systems are broken, I disagree on how it's broken and what should be done to bring it to where it should be.
Quote:The fools saying "fit a tank", well, last time i checked you can't PVP in a PVE ship, and vice versa. Something you are all wilfully ignoring.
This statement cuts both ways. If I can't be expected to PvP in a PvE ship, why should the ganker expect to enter into a PvE area and fare any better? This isn't wilfull ignorance, this is balancing the scales. The work isn't done yet--You should not be getting the whole room just from warping in or decloaking. However you can expect to be rolled the moment you start displaying things like any form of Ewar, because everyone knows you primary Ewar and Logistics first. Your fit and playstyle will have to be altered to take into account the environments rules and conditions, just as the bear has to alter and take into account the possiblity of a PvP encounter. |
HazeInADaze
The Tuskers
34
|
Posted - 2013.02.28 18:01:00 -
[157] - Quote
It is a bit much to expect a PvP ship to handle a pve site.
In most situations a combat pilot must jump deep into hostile space to a densely populated cluster and then find, tackle, and destroy a heavily tanked ship while taking fire from the entire complex plus the PvE ship. So you need a ship with a heavy tank, an ability to avoid other combat fleets, and enough DPS to kill a ship that has the ability to tank an entire complex.
The risk of PvE has always been other pilots killing you. Now, with the exception of bridge fleets, there is no really successful way to engage a PvE ship without a tonne of luck. And before all these changes, back when ratting was done in a belt, an alert PvE pilot was almost completely uncatchable. |
Sol Weinstein
Lunatic Warfare Federation
81
|
Posted - 2013.02.28 18:05:00 -
[158] - Quote
This again? Stop posting the same idea weeks later. Poor way to campaign your poor idea.
Adapt to the changes in the NPC AI, or don't. Your choice.
Thank you.
The Savior of EVE https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=205546&find=unread |
HazeInADaze
The Tuskers
34
|
Posted - 2013.02.28 18:14:00 -
[159] - Quote
Sol Weinstein wrote:This again? Stop posting the same idea weeks later. Poor way to campaign your poor idea.
Adapt to the changes in the NPC AI, or don't. Your choice.
Thank you.
I think a lot of people have adapted. Cloak cyno ships logged on 23/7 is the adaptation. |
Sol Weinstein
Lunatic Warfare Federation
82
|
Posted - 2013.02.28 18:22:00 -
[160] - Quote
HazeInADaze wrote:Sol Weinstein wrote:This again? Stop posting the same idea weeks later. Poor way to campaign your poor idea.
Adapt to the changes in the NPC AI, or don't. Your choice.
Thank you.
I think a lot of people have adapted. Cloak cyno ships logged on 23/7 is the adaptation.
Huh?
Thank you.
The Savior of EVE https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=205546&find=unread |
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Roderick Grey
Broski North Black Legion.
264
|
Posted - 2013.02.28 18:27:00 -
[161] - Quote
Sol Weinstein wrote:This again? Stop posting the same idea weeks later. Poor way to campaign your poor idea.
Adapt to the changes in the NPC AI, or don't. Your choice.
Thank you.
it's the same thread, it just keeps getting necro'd.
But thanks again for your useless feed back.
"Guys I dislike this change let's discuss it"
"No, deal with it"
GÇ£We could learn a lot from crayons; some are sharp, some are pretty, some are dull, while others bright, some have weird names, but they all have learned to live together in the same box.GÇ¥- Special needs division of Fcon. |
Doddy
Dark-Rising
838
|
Posted - 2013.02.28 19:54:00 -
[162] - Quote
Aglais wrote:Roderick Grey wrote: I don't have any dislike towards carebears at all, I myself do missions to support my pvp habit.
I'm saying that the NPC AI is flawed as the "threat" system isn't adequately taking into consideration who has aggression against what and is instead prioritizing targets who use Warp disruptors/scrams.
I dunno. That sounds like they're going after a higher priority target that is more dangerous to their well being because NPCs can and will warp off if an engagement goes poorly for them, much like players.
No they don't, normal belt rats only warp out when their timer tells them to, regardless of whether they are losing a fight or not. In fact even if you are disco'd and dying horribly to them having not damaged them in any way they will warp off. Officer and hauler spawns are different, they can warp out when you kill their escorts, but even then its not common. Deadspace rats won't warp out at all unless they are scripted to so for the purposes of a mission.
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Doddy
Dark-Rising
838
|
Posted - 2013.02.28 20:08:00 -
[163] - Quote
Ager Agemo wrote:Is it so hard to wait for the players to be done with the sites and then kill them?
If only there wasn't this local thingy that that gives you about 2 mins before even the slowest on the uptake pve ship docks, then you might be onto something. Or if the rats being there wasn't the sole reason for the player to be there. Or if rats appeared on d-scan (good old days) so you could see if how much help he had.
Its not just the damage difference that matters in any case, its the ewar, the neuting, the webbing, the impossibility of maintaining transversal on a target and on the bs spawn/sentries 60k away. Hell if the rats all took the opportunity to escape and despawned (like they would) and didn't help either side that would be fine, or if they treated both capsuleer ships as hostile and shot both or randomized between either. As it is it is just dumb. They will defend 5 bs that have been slaughtering their fellows for hours and are assaulting their "provincial headquarters" or whatever against 1 dude in a cruiser ffs, how can you not see that is broken?
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Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
91
|
Posted - 2013.03.01 00:25:00 -
[164] - Quote
HazeInADaze wrote:It is a bit much to expect a PvP ship to handle a pve site.
In most situations a combat pilot must jump deep into hostile space to a densely populated cluster and then find, tackle, and destroy a heavily tanked ship while taking fire from the entire complex plus the PvE ship. So you need a ship with a heavy tank, an ability to avoid other combat fleets, and enough DPS to kill a ship that has the ability to tank an entire complex.
The risk of PvE has always been other pilots killing you. Now, with the exception of bridge fleets, there is no really successful way to engage a PvE ship without a tonne of luck. And before all these changes, back when ratting was done in a belt, an alert PvE pilot was almost completely uncatchable.
You say it's a bit much? Yet this is exactly what you want the PvE ship to do. The risk of PvE is supposed to be the Environment killing you. PvP is the activity that is supposed to be other pilots killing you. EVE is built on the premise that PvP can be nonconsensual, that you can force another pilot to fight you any time you can catch them. The game is ludicriously loaded in favor of a PvP specialized fit winning any engagement against one fit for PvE, unless the PvE pilot simply *Stops Playing*. That is currently their only defense. You can hardly complain about any PvP you might encounter on the way, everyone is subject to nonconsensual PvP.
I submit that if a pilot wants to take his ship into an area with heavy PvE interaction, then that pilot should fit his ship for those conditions. It was unbalanced that the ganker could completely ignore the environmental conditions he was fighting in, unless he chose to use it to his advantage to kill his target for him. Now both ships must contend with the environment. I agree the AI is not working properly in this regard since the whole room tends to shift at one time, but even that's not too out of line as the time it would stay on the new pilot is limited unless he is doing something the AI finds offensive, like using Logistics or Ewar.
Doddy wrote:Its not just the damage difference that matters in any case, its the ewar, the neuting, the webbing, the impossibility of maintaining transversal on a target and on the bs spawn/sentries 60k away. Hell if the rats all took the opportunity to escape and despawned (like they would) and didn't help either side that would be fine, or if they treated both capsuleer ships as hostile and shot both or randomized between either. As it is it is just dumb. They will defend 5 bs that have been slaughtering their fellows for hours and are assaulting their "provincial headquarters" or whatever against 1 dude in a cruiser ffs, how can you not see that is broken?
Yet again, this is why it is balanced. What is good for the goose is good for the gander. If the PvE pilot has to contend with NPC Ewar, CapWar, Webbing, and transversal on multiple ships/drones then so should everyone else. Gankers like to pretend like the PvE guy had a choice about he didn't fit for PvP when his intended activity was PvE--- and it gave the gankers a stupidly unbalanced advantage in any engagement between them. It is not logical in any way that the ganker should be able to simply ignore everything but the one guy he wants to kill. Rats are no bodies ally. They destroy ships without prejudice. If you come in an easily popped ship and start doing things they find offensive, you can expect a summary popping.
I should not be forced to stop playing my EVE just because some ganker wants to play his. I look foward to the day when PvP and PvE fits are compatable and there are options to just quiting for the evening because some pirates decided to take up residence in the system. This change, poorly implemented as it is, steps in the right direction. Combined with a suite of other changes and some tweaks to how the AI changes targets as a fleet this will make EVE a better game. I would be ecstatic if they put in a functioning faction system and diplomacy interface so that your standings actually did something and you could negotiate with the rat factions for safe passage or render assistance against a cap pilot massacreing them. Imagine if you could begin your evening hunt by stopping by the solar systems hidden Serpentis base and purchasing an hour pass in all their areas of interest (complexes, mission pockets, etc...). |
Katran Luftschreck
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
1041
|
Posted - 2013.03.01 02:33:00 -
[165] - Quote
OP title should read "NPC AI hurting my cheap easy ganking of PvE fit mission runners" EvE Forum Bingo |
Roderick Grey
Broski North Black Legion.
264
|
Posted - 2013.03.01 04:06:00 -
[166] - Quote
Katran Luftschreck wrote:OP title should read "NPC AI hurting my cheap easy ganking of PvE fit mission runners"
Didn't mention missions at all.
But thanks for your contribution.
GÇ£We could learn a lot from crayons; some are sharp, some are pretty, some are dull, while others bright, some have weird names, but they all have learned to live together in the same box.GÇ¥- Special needs division of Fcon. |
Katran Luftschreck
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
1043
|
Posted - 2013.03.01 04:19:00 -
[167] - Quote
Cheap ganking of belt ratters, then. Semantics, really. You enjoy taking your PvP fit ship and ganking PvE ships when they're already engaged (and weakened) by NPC AI ships. It's fun and easy and a great way to bloat your killboard with less effort. And I can applaud that sense of ruthless efficiency.
But now NPC AI attack everyone equally and you're whining about it. That's what I can't get behind. Simply by having a PvP ship and ambushing PvE ships you already have the upper hand. A great dead of an upper hand, in fact. Is having a few measly belt rats switching their aggro to you enough to really nullify that advantage? Is it enough to keep you from winning a fight that's already so heavily stacked in your favor to begin with?
That's what makes my perception of your methods go from "underhanded yet very clever strategy" to "total bully/wimp complex." If it's so dang hard to deal with belt rats then, I dunno, fit a cloak or something and wait until your PvE victim clears them all out for you first. Get a stealth bomber and blow them all up at once or something. Or do you honestly need them alive to help do your gank for you?
Seriously, compared to typical PvP in lowsec (I'm assuming you're in lowsec) the incoming DPS of couple of belt rats should be like a mosquito bite on an elephant. EvE Forum Bingo |
Roderick Grey
Broski North Black Legion.
264
|
Posted - 2013.03.01 04:30:00 -
[168] - Quote
They don't attack everyone equally that's the whole point, they prioritize those that use a Warp scramblers and other forms of ewar akin to pvp.
You point a Carrier in a stealth bomber the rats will switch to you (Not that you could solo a carrier anyway, but you get the point.)
And no, I'm not a lowsec resident. GÇ£We could learn a lot from crayons; some are sharp, some are pretty, some are dull, while others bright, some have weird names, but they all have learned to live together in the same box.GÇ¥- Special needs division of Fcon. |
Azrael Dinn
The 20th Legion Mildly Sober
59
|
Posted - 2013.03.01 06:30:00 -
[169] - Quote
Roderick Grey wrote:Having to run from ratting tengus and drakes because the rats have switched to you is a terrible feeling.
I think CCP should change the aggression mechanics so that players attacking them take priority over others. I mean, how is attacking the ship that's killing the ship that's attacking you make any sense?
I think CCP should make it the mechanics work like this:
A drake warps into a belt and gains priority 2 aggression from the rats.
The drake attacks one of the rats granting it priority 1 aggression.
The drake gets it's drones out and attacks a frigate rat with them, the drones now have priority 1 aggression aswell, allowing NPC AI to switch in-between their desired targets.
A Cynabal enters the belt and attacks the Drake and gains priority 2 aggression from the rats.
The rats continue attacking the drake, as the drake has type 1 aggression.
The drake dies, the rats switch to the Cynabal as there are no priority 1 targets on field.
What the... are you actualy crying about rats that shoot at you and your pvp is abit harder? |
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
93
|
Posted - 2013.03.01 15:14:00 -
[170] - Quote
Roderick Grey wrote:They don't attack everyone equally that's the whole point, they prioritize those that use a Warp scramblers and other forms of ewar akin to pvp.
You point a Carrier in a stealth bomber the rats will switch to you (Not that you could solo a carrier anyway, but you get the point.)
And no, I'm not a lowsec resident.
They do attack everyone equally, using the same rules. The PvE target you are trying to kill does not use those kinds of Ewar because he is dealing with rats, and so takes appropriate measures. They respond much the same way to logistics.
You want to engage pilots in a PvE setting, deal with rats. Very simple and balanced. The only broken aspect as far as the target switching is concerned is when they do it to simply showing up or decloaking. You should not get full room aggro for just warping in. Once you start doing things the NPC's find offensive, like Ewar or Logisitics, then you can expect to get all the aggro you have earned. If you intend to use those sorts of modules around NPC's, I suggest you fly an appropriate ship and fit to handle the challenges of the situation. |
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DSpite Culhach
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
81
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 16:28:00 -
[171] - Quote
This is purely aimed at how I have seen the AI working, normal missions by the way.
I don't know if you can call an AI what seems to be a rather linear scripted sequence. I'd refer to it as an AI if it could at least cheat and scan your ship to figure out which target they can take out faster for example, but all the switching seems to be on some rather black and white coded rules.
For example, two ships in mission, we let an aligned shield tanker go into armour and they still switched. In fact, they seem to just switch at regular intervals, which in fact made it easier. We tried messing with distances, yet they still seem to try shooting ships they obviously know they can't hit ... the list goes on.
We only did limited tests, but they seem to point at the old AI with just target switching behaviour. I have had them stop shooting sentries I abandoned 30 KM away just to retarget me firing missiles, I mean, I'd expected them to finish off a half dead sentry group. After I pulled all the NPC's back to me, I connected back to the sentries and started firing again, only 1 got killed.
Personally, if I was in a warzone with some lone hero guy wiping out my group and someone else we didn't know started a fight with him, I'd get the hell out, just in case they decide to pick on us again once they settle their own differences. I'm not saying that's how it should work, but I am all for keeping the game a little unpredictable. Every time I find a new NPC mechanic that I can duplicate easily I get a little annoyed.
Completely ignoring a new ship on grid is too extreme. All targeting the new ship has the same problem. I think it needs more work. I suddenly woke up thinking I had a nightmare, then remembered I can't even fly Amarr Battleships. I add bits to this when I'm bored https://www.dropbox.com/s/foijsawsqolarom/EVE_Online.html |
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