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RadioBirdman	Posted - 2005.06.10 10:04:00 - [1] Edited by: RadioBirdman on 10/06/2005 10:06:25 Expect massive account cancelations after these missile changes..I know many many players that they r at least angry..U can't encourage - force - make (call it as u like) hundreds or thousands of players to train missiles, caldari bs etc etc etc,for doin missions and suddenly tell them to totally change path - way of playing, and that all they train specialized so long now it's trash cause u suddenly decide to make lvl4 missions not possible to do solo by changing the missiles.Cause this is the point...Mission runners are screwed.And they r many of them...Missiles and launchers maybe need balance less or more.I am not the better person to judge this.But destroying suddenly the playstyle of so many people - a playstyle u show them to follow not so many months ago it's sth i not understand and sth i am really angry for...If u wanna make lvl 4 missions tottaly not to be able solo,then u r too late..That is sth u should think about long time ago... My english is not so good..and maybe my point is not clear..What i say is let's say ccp is a goverment...and say to people of her country:everybody go buy black cars...black cars will be cheaper..more sexy...will be free of taxes...will will will...and when anyone got one...suddenly ccp decides what???To forbid black cars from the roads of the country...buhahaha...This is how i receive it...being total fool.Like a new player and just reach the point after hard training and spend time to be able to do lvl4 missions with a decent ship and skills now ccp dun let me do it anymore... That's simply not fair. Thanks
Gull De'Kuntos	Posted - 2005.06.10 10:09:00 - [2] Hi, sorry but I don't see it the way you do. CCP have never told anyone to fly Caldari BS to do agent missions. Its just that everyone flies them because they are the best ships for missions. You will just have to adapt to the changes and get the best out of the 'upgrades' to the missiles.
Hatchplug	Posted - 2005.06.10 10:14:00 - [3] L4 missions will not become impossible solo in a Raven after the change. It will just be closer to how hard it is in the other battleships. This is nothing but fair. CCP is not taking anything away from you. You will be able to do what you used to do, it will just be harder, but not much harder than it is for everyone else. You might need to kill the frigates with another ship, then return with your Raven. You might need to change your Raven fitting. You might need to train up your drone, gunnery or missile skills, or mount webbers. You might have to change your strategy and shoot from longer ranges. But I am sure it will still be possible to solo L4s. It will just be hard, as it should be.
Jernau Gurgeh	Posted - 2005.06.10 10:19:00 - [4] Originally by: RadioBirdman Like a new player and just reach the point after hard training and spend time to be able to do lvl4 missions with a decent ship and skills now ccp dun let me do it anymore... That's simply not fair. Thanks Level 4 missions are not meant to be done by new solo players. There are 10 sorts of people in the world - those who understand binary, and those who do not.
MutationZ	Posted - 2005.06.10 10:48:00 - [5] Uncharitable reply ----> Dont let the door hit you on the way out. Nicer advice----> Raven has had it far too easy. It offers a one setup for all situations. Just change hardners. Add to this less skills needed to be more effective. Thats wrong. Now, you can do one of two things. 1) Quit because its the easy spineless thing to do. 2) Adapt. Have a bit of fun being challenged by the missions instead of jamming the f1-f6 keys. Look at set ups that arent used but may work. Torps dont kill frigs anymore? Fit a smart bomb. And so on. I hope you go for option 2. Whatever you choose, stop whining. And dont play the "ppl are gonna quit" card. /rant ends
Shelob EnB	Posted - 2005.06.10 13:12:00 - [6] Originally by: MutationZ Uncharitable reply ----> Dont let the door hit you on the way out. Nicer advice----> Raven has had it far too easy. It offers a one setup for all situations. Just change hardners. Add to this less skills needed to be more effective. Thats wrong. Now, you can do one of two things. 1) Quit because its the easy spineless thing to do. 2) Adapt. Have a bit of fun being challenged by the missions instead of jamming the f1-f6 keys. Look at set ups that arent used but may work. Torps dont kill frigs anymore? Fit a smart bomb. And so on. I hope you go for option 2. Whatever you choose, stop whining. And dont play the "ppl are gonna quit" card. /rant ends /me eats said quit card. Matari bs 4TW!
RadioBirdman	Posted - 2005.06.10 13:18:00 - [7] All opinions and answers to my post are welcomed..And i completely understand them and they are correct and i mostly agree..The point is that it seems that i did not make myshelf clear.U people missin the point..it's not if the raven or missiles or sth else need nerfed or not...i support any development improvement or whatever make the game better and more balanced..i also agree that maybe raven had it all too easy... But the point is that after 2 years this game must have some standards that people must relay on to build their charachters and wallets...I start this game and i found some rules and mechanics..i study them and i decide to follow a path...well u can change them u can nerf or improve...but not totally screw people...that's what i am sayin..do it easy and slow,do it with style.killin frigs with 2 torps and now need 8 volleys it's a damn huge difference.And this is only an issue...there so many around...
reaTh	Posted - 2005.06.10 13:20:00 - [8] Edited by: reaTh on 10/06/2005 13:20:42 Edited by: reaTh on 10/06/2005 13:20:19 "ohnoes i cant do l4 missions in my raven solo anymore im gunna quit unless u keep it the same" nerfage 4tw ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Akilah Ashaki	Posted - 2005.06.10 13:25:00 - [9] Originally by: RadioBirdman massive account cancelations after these missile changes.. Just have to say 'LOL' thx for your attention
Reeperman	Posted - 2005.06.10 13:26:00 - [10] TBH... I hate to say it but some clever sd will figure out how to run them solo still no matter how hard they get.. You can bet on it. You can solo them in an Apoc (it's tricky but you can) and some of them in a megathron so I still think despite the missile nerf you will be able to.. You just need to adapt and use new ideas rather than .. Point .. click .. spam torps.. collect cash. --------- Carebear and proud of it ------*---
digitalwanderer	Posted - 2005.06.10 13:28:00 - [11] Originally by: MutationZ Uncharitable reply ----> Dont let the door hit you on the way out. Nicer advice----> Raven has had it far too easy. It offers a one setup for all situations. Just change hardners. Add to this less skills needed to be more effective. Thats wrong. Now, you can do one of two things. 1) Quit because its the easy spineless thing to do. 2) Adapt. Have a bit of fun being challenged by the missions instead of jamming the f1-f6 keys. Look at set ups that arent used but may work. Torps dont kill frigs anymore? Fit a smart bomb. And so on. I hope you go for option 2. Whatever you choose, stop whining. And dont play the "ppl are gonna quit" card. /rant ends Now that you mention it,i was thinking about using either 2 cruise missile launchers or even going for a pair of heavy missile launchers to replace the sieges on my apoc,and with the powergrid/cpu savings,it frees up a low slot for a damage mod for the T2 beams in order to still be able to nail the BS¦s efficiently....The heavy missiles and maxed out drone skills for for cruisers/frigs,then once those are dealt with,they¦ll also get used on the BS¦s too(if any is still standing by then ofc...)
Gunstar Zero	Posted - 2005.06.10 13:49:00 - [12] Originally by: RadioBirdman Edited by: RadioBirdman on 10/06/2005 10:06:25 Expect massive account cancelations after these missile changes..I know many many players that they r at least angry..U can't encourage - force - make (call it as u like) hundreds or thousands of players to train missiles, caldari bs etc etc etc,for doin missions and suddenly tell them to totally change path - way of playing, and that all they train specialized so long now it's trash cause u suddenly decide to make lvl4 missions not possible to do solo by changing the missiles.Cause this is the point...Mission runners are screwed.And they r many of them...Missiles and launchers maybe need balance less or more.I am not the better person to judge this.But destroying suddenly the playstyle of so many people - a playstyle u show them to follow not so many months ago it's sth i not understand and sth i am really angry for...If u wanna make lvl 4 missions tottaly not to be able solo,then u r too late..That is sth u should think about long time ago... My english is not so good..and maybe my point is not clear..What i say is let's say ccp is a goverment...and say to people of her country:everybody go buy black cars...black cars will be cheaper..more sexy...will be free of taxes...will will will...and when anyone got one...suddenly ccp decides what???To forbid black cars from the roads of the country...buhahaha...This is how i receive it...being total fool.Like a new player and just reach the point after hard training and spend time to be able to do lvl4 missions with a decent ship and skills now ccp dun let me do it anymore... That's simply not fair. Thanks Ahhhh - no-one's told you the secret mission cheat code. Press Up, Down, Up, Up, Down, Down. then type in the channel 'local' "Hi anyone fancy doing a lvl4 mission, split loot 50/50" A wingman will materialise to help you pwn the shippies. </helpful>
Scorpyn	Posted - 2005.06.10 14:01:00 - [13] Missiles have actually been fairly useless for pve until fairly recently. They used to destroy the cans and cost more to build that you got from the bounties. Note that the tanking ability will not be affected, and you can still fit small launchers/turrets. The main problem I see with the missile changes is that it seems like a nosferatu/neutralizer will do more harm than good as a frig defence, since missiles will probably do less damage without the extra sig radius (unless they changed that, was a while ago I looked at the missile thread).
Vathar	Posted - 2005.06.10 14:17:00 - [14] Originally by: Scorpyn The main problem I see with the missile changes is that it seems like a nosferatu/neutralizer will do more harm than good as a frig defence, since missiles will probably do less damage without the extra sig radius (unless they changed that, was a while ago I looked at the missile thread). Errm, I'm not 100% positive about this, but I think that NPCs using mwds don't have a sig penalty (and of course, are able to use them in deadspace, but I'm straying) Apart from this, I haven't tried the changes yet, but it you're able to mount an effective anti-bs/anti-cruiser weapon on your Raven, then the remaining frigs are easy to deal with using the same methods as every other BS player ... Apocs can use 6 large turrets vs. big ships + 2 assault launchers to pop frigs, but a Raven can fit exactly the opposite to achieve the same results (I mean, 6 siege/cruise + 2 anti frigates turrets) ____________ Space Shaman Don't take life seriously, you'll not survive it anyway (\_/) (O.o) (> <) yay, got my bunny too !!
Liu Kaskakka	Posted - 2005.06.10 14:21:00 - [15] Edited by: Liu Kaskakka on 10/06/2005 14:21:27 Originally by: RadioBirdman Edited by: RadioBirdman on 10/06/2005 10:06:25 Expect massive account cancelations after these missile changes..I know many many players that they r at least angry..U can't encourage - force - make (call it as u like) hundreds or thousands of players to train missiles, caldari bs etc etc etc,for doin missions and suddenly tell them to totally change path - way of playing, and that all they train specialized so long now it's trash cause u suddenly decide to make lvl4 missions not possible to do solo by changing the missiles.Cause this is the point...Mission runners are screwed.And they r many of them...Missiles and launchers maybe need balance less or more.I am not the better person to judge this.But destroying suddenly the playstyle of so many people - a playstyle u show them to follow not so many months ago it's sth i not understand and sth i am really angry for...If u wanna make lvl 4 missions tottaly not to be able solo,then u r too late..That is sth u should think about long time ago... Thanks omgbuhuicantmake100madaywithoutriskanymorewhaaaaaaaa.. Your misery fills me with joy .. Oh, the current situation has benefited me as well. You just don't seem to understand how this is hurting eve ..
James Lyrus	Posted - 2005.06.10 14:22:00 - [16] The reason you see millions of ravens doing L4 missions, is because ravens have an easy time of soloing it. It's _possible_ to do L4 missions in other battleships. But it's harder, by virtue of the fact that no battleship sized gun is good at killing frigates. So they have to rely on drones and missile launchers (usually torps). Now, _everyone_ using torps for frigate killing is going to have to use a different approach. This obviously hurts ravens the most, but basically all battleships are in the same situation. They can tool up to kill other battleships, or they can tool up to kill frigates. But in order to do both, sacrifices have to be made. Where's the problem here? I appreciate as a L4 agenteer in a raven, your life is suddenly going to become more difficult. But ... well you've had it easy for ages. It's solvable. 10 drones. Fit 2 'frigate' guns in those spare high slots. Or get a wingman :). L4 missions are more fun in a group anyway.
Mr Tall	Posted - 2005.06.10 14:30:00 - [17] What he said ^^ We run lvl4s in our corp as a group - with a nice mixed collection of ships - BS, BC and a t2 frig or two. They're quite easy like that, but they're much more fun. Yes, the bounties get shared out amongst all of you, but on the other hand you get through missions much quicker.
X'Alor	Posted - 2005.06.10 14:42:00 - [18] problem is. in the typical fashion of CCP they are making two changes not just a missle change. 1. missle nerf will make lvl 4 missions on par with doing missions with any turret based ship. that is fine. that change unto itself is enough. doing lvl 4's solo in anything but a raven is very difficult and a good challenge. it can still be done. The problem is they are making a second change as well that will affect it. 2. Mission difficulty will be increased and some missions we solo'ed before simply we will not be able too. so even though the missle nerf will make things difficult for all and on par with everything else, doing the second change and boosting difficulty as well will cause big problems. Anyone recall the mass refund of ships that CCP replaced weather you petitioned it or not for the 2 week grace period when lvl 4's were introduced. Well expect round two. When will CCP learn, one change at a time. do the missle nerf and let it ride. if they aren't happy with that affect then next patch change the difficulty after the missle nerf is implemented. But I guess I'm the only one that beleives in doing things one step at a time.
Scorpyn	Posted - 2005.06.10 14:52:00 - [19] Originally by: Vathar Originally by: Scorpyn The main problem I see with the missile changes is that it seems like a nosferatu/neutralizer will do more harm than good as a frig defence, since missiles will probably do less damage without the extra sig radius (unless they changed that, was a while ago I looked at the missile thread). Errm, I'm not 100% positive about this, but I think that NPCs using mwds don't have a sig penalty (and of course, are able to use them in deadspace, but I'm straying) That comments was pvp related, not pve. At the moment you're correct but I think I read something about npc:s getting a sig radius increase when mwd:ing (or maybe I was dreaming?). No matter what though, npc:s don't use cap, so you can't deactivate the mwd on a npc ship with a nos/neut.
Vathar	Posted - 2005.06.10 15:40:00 - [20] Sorry, I took it to b pve related because you mentionned pve just before ... ____________ Space Shaman Don't take life seriously, you'll not survive it anyway (\_/) (O.o) (> <) yay, got my bunny too !!
Atuck	Posted - 2005.06.10 15:55:00 - [21] what makes me mad its not the nerf to raven mission running ability but all these ppl that are crying to nerf the new missle overhaul in pvp. i think some ppl get there fun out of crying for nerfs all the time.but overall this missle change will be bad for all imo cause guns will be nerfed when all the missle users start crying for nerf its a big circle thats how nerfs work :P
Azeal Reece	Posted - 2005.06.10 15:57:00 - [22] One point, whats all this (L4's are gonna get harder, cuz they really arnt.... whats gonna happen, this = Raven fits 6 assaults and 2 250mm proto's, kills all frigs and cruisers.............. stage 2 , fits seiges and Pwns the bs's, in my opinion, thats not harder, just more time consuming...... and lets face it, missions already take to long as it is :/, i agree there changes will make the ravens usable in fleet combat (cuz last time i used a raven in fleet combat all the other ships were dead b4 my first volly hit :/), its still gonna be a major time issue, the solution to this problem shudnt be (make the raven as bad as the other for PVE, it should be to make the others as good as the raven for PVE, but still make the raven better for PVP, thats a balance/mod/change......................
Siroc	Posted - 2005.06.10 15:57:00 - [23] come on, changes are not in the game yet and you already screaming: "People will leave". You don't know how things will change. Its possible that they will just take a different form. Maybe you will be able to get respectable dps against enemy with rockets and light missles for all I know. Nobody knows exact details yet. Its still in the testing. So stop whining and wait for them to release the changes. Maybe you will not have to change your setup that much. On another hand, not very smart to drop all of your eggs in one basket, best way to play eve is balance skills. Spread them out more to cover more alternative ways to use your character. This way you never forced into the corner from changes CCP introduces.
Zaintiraris	Posted - 2005.06.10 15:58:00 - [24] Originally by: RadioBirdman Expect massive account cancelations after these missile changes.. Byebye! Ooo can I have your stuff when you leave? Maybe you should leave now and gimme your stuff now. This goes for all people who plan to leave when missile changes happen. I will be able to use so many new things on my raven, that I'll need all your isk in order to kit it out real nice. --- Originally by: CCP Hammer This game was so much better back before people knew math.
Weirda	Posted - 2005.06.10 16:08:00 - [25] LOL - sorry that the change make you feel this way (to the OP)... you have to look at bigger picture though. Weirda never fly Raven - because flavour of the month (year) is stupid... Fly what you like and learn how to fly it. Good raven pilots will have no problems after these changes, they will probably be happy that there are more skills to train and more setups to consider. Also, you can do level 4 missions in ANY ship (except maybe angel missions in an Armageddon). You just need to practice. And maybe even do them with some friends (you don't HAVE to - it just helps you get to know the mission sequences). Either way - don't let knee-jerk reaction dictate you life. If you only do ONE thing in this game, and they change that - you will always lose. You should always find many things that you like, lest you get bored or one of them change. -- Thread Killer <END TRANSMISSION>
Ronin Woman	Posted - 2005.06.10 16:17:00 - [26] To all you mission runners that are going to quit: Can I have your Isk & stuff?
Hllaxiu	Posted - 2005.06.10 16:24:00 - [27] Originally by: Vathar Errm, I'm not 100% positive about this, but I think that NPCs using mwds don't have a sig penalty (and of course, are able to use them in deadspace, but I'm straying) THis is true - but they do on the test server. Just watch what happens when you warp in with long range turrets at longer range vs some tackler frigates. Start firing, wait for 'em to MWD, then target paint it and see it go poof after you get a wrecking shot.
XpoHoc	Posted - 2005.06.10 16:27:00 - [28] Welcome to balancing. Evolution will take care of the ones left behind.
Arte	Posted - 2005.06.10 17:30:00 - [29] Edited by: Arte on 10/06/2005 17:32:41 Originally by: RadioBirdman But the point is that after 2 years this game must have some standards that people must relay on to build their charachters and wallets...I start this game and i found some rules and mechanics..i study them and i decide to follow a path...well u can change them u can nerf or improve...but not totally screw people...that's what i am sayin..do it easy and slow,do it with style.killin frigs with 2 torps and now need 8 volleys it's a damn huge difference.And this is only an issue...there so many around... If you started training Raven and missile skills 2 years ago, then it wasn't just for Lvl 4 missions. If you started less time ago and trained raven just for the missions, then I would suggest that it was incredibly short sighted of you. Everyone knew that lvl 4s would be made harder. Either way when they got made available, you found yourself to be in a decent position to do them solo, easily. This change will affect missile jocks the same way the tracking changes affected turret users. All of a sudden, people have to think about their setups. There are a myriad of ways that the turret users coped, and the missile users will be able to cope just as easily. Your chosen path just got made better, extra skills to use that help you improve your missile usage skill further still.. what's to complain about? So you might need more ammo replenishments during a mission.... So you might not be able to personally rake in 25mil+ a mission....... If those are your problems and you're prepared to quit over them, then perhaps this isn't the game for you anyways. Improvise, adapt, overcome the problems. Or choose a different path. PS: Compliments on your English. Better than my foreign speaking ability
Dionysus Davinci	Posted - 2005.06.10 17:32:00 - [30] Edited by: Dionysus Davinci on 10/06/2005 17:32:25 Edited by: Dionysus Davinci on 10/06/2005 17:31:52 1 large smartbomb for the frigs and then use heavy drones for the cruisers is what I do with my mega, but I try to target the cruisers first and get them before they get under my rails tracking.

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