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"Biggest ship wins." The disease of Eve.

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Derisor	Posted - 2005.06.13 09:33:00 - [1] First and foremost, this post represents my opinion. I recognise that others have differing opinions and I encourage them to post them in a way that is constructive and productive rather than flaming. Hopefully we can discuss the subject amiably even if we disagree. Much of the time Eve seems to boil down to ôbiggest ship wins.ö This is something that has been recognised by the developers and hence their push to make smaller ships more survivable. However, the fact is that a straight HP increase wont have any effect on this at all. Nor will the upcoming missile buff (yes it is a buff for anyone with a brain enough to fit multiple types of missiles.) The problem really boils down to a simple equation. You consider a few frigates playing cat and mouse in the GW. Some enemy frigates hit some friendly frigates and you come with your frigates to respond. Its all fun and games until someone puts an eye out ... with a battleship. As soon as the battleship shows up the frigates are so much dead meat. They MIGHT be able to survive if they can orbit the BS fast enough but they will only be able to take out the most noobish of BS pilots. Any competent BS pilot will own them. So basically when the battleships show up, its time to get your own BS. The frigates get essentially nerfed down to tacklers ie: he is carrying a scrambler so he pins the battleship until the other battleship shows up. And even this is near certain death for most of the frigates for after they are locked, they are basically one shotted. If there are 2 battleships it is even worse for the frigate pilots. So what's the problem? Well the problem is that it shouldn't be like this. Battleships use big weapons and big missiles and should kill big things. Frigates use small guns and small missiles and should kill small things. That a battleship shows up and the frigates cant kill it (except if there is like 30 of them) is a good thing. That a battleship shows up and can pop all the frigates in a minute is a bad thing. Fleets in real life have ships of various sizes for this exact reason. Fleets in eve should have that as well. The frigates come in to kill the other guy's frigates. The tacklers come to pin the battleships but in order to kill tacklers the BS must fit small guns and thus give up some of its heavy firepower. Today its not like that. If a BS locks you, you are pretty much screwed. The speed you can manage and or the skill that you posses in flying the ship are rendered mute. You either warp out or die. Eve has the equivalent of fighter jets being shot down by Intercontinental Ballistic Missiles and Huge howitzers. This is fundamentally flawed in my opinion. Furthermore, merely increasing the hit points on a frigate is not going to change this. This will merely mean that it will take 2 torpedoes instead of 1 to kill a frigate or 2 400mm guns instead of one. Nothing more has changed. A raven or megathron can still charge into a pack of frigates and unleash mass slaughter. Hitting them with shells that are 40cm in size. For you Americans, just think about it. The shell is about 1.5 feet in diameter and its hitting a fast moving target? The only real solution to this, in my opinion, is to make it much much harder for large guns to hit smaller ships. The current radial tracking strategy doesn't cover it because it protects frigates orbiting the ship firing and that is all. To a ship 2km away those orbiting ships are essentially standing still for the purposes of radian based tracking. Furthermore, when the ships are zooming up to the battleship, their angular velocity is near 0 as they try to close the 100km distance to the sniper (they rarely get there). ... Contiued next post ... --------- The words "Exciting" and "Safe" are mutually exclusive; pick one.
Derisor	Posted - 2005.06.13 09:34:00 - [2] The problem is that munitions in eve don't have a muzzle velocity. They hit instantly and thus can hit anything that moves. Guns in real life have a muzzle velocity that decreases over distance from the target. This is why a real life battleship guns can hit another battleship but not a small speedboat. Because the travel time of the shells makes it much harder to hit fast moving targets. Eve rounds all travel at the same speed, namely the speed of light. Therefore we need a mechanic to introduce this sort of difficulty to Eve. My proposed fix for this, in my opinion, is twofold. First of all, double the speed of all light craft. Interceptors should be managing 12km/s easily (with MWD) and frigates half that. To compensate for that on the missile side, be sure to increase the speed of frigate mountable and frigate killing missiles. The guns themselves would be subject to a tracking difficulty in tracking smaller craft. Perhaps the gun would have an attribute that says ôminimum tracked object sizeö and this would be the volume of the vehicle being tracked. If the vehicle is smaller then the tracking accuracy falls off dramatically. Essentially you wont be killing a pod with a 400mm howitzer very often. A shot of a large gun on a frigate or interceptor would become pure luck. Another possible variation on the theme would be to make it so that the tracking is based on the agility of the targeted craft. So the guns would only track craft that are X agile and a craft that is 10x more agile would be very hard to hit. In this case we would be emulating the evasive manoeuvres that a pilot would normally do against guns targeting him in real life. A b52 bomber cant evade for nothing, but an F18 surely can. So what would this mean for BS drivers and fleet actions? It would mean that instead of counting battleships, the frigates would be counted as well. You would hear ôhow many anti-frig we haveö in gang chat. You might also notice that a BS surely can fit the smaller guns that are able to track the frigates around them and kill them. Of course he does this at the sacrifice of some of his heavy gun firepower and that is an acceptable trade-off. Its also the case that a lone raven jumped, tackled and webbed by 15 assault Frigates would have a serious problem if he doesn't have anti-frigate weapons. This is the way it should be. He should be inclined to bring frigate killers with him or set up multi defence, not simply hit F1-F8 on one target and watch the fireworks. It would also mean that the cruiser as a frigate and cruiser killer would once again have a significant impact on the fleet operations rather than being simply there. Right now the frigates tackle, the battleships kill and the cruisers are there for looks. Sure they can kill Frigates now but with much less effectiveness than a second battleship. Frigates would also be there to kill the other frigates. Interceptors would be used to head off the incoming tacklers and assault frigates would head right for the cruisers to kill them before they can pop the tacklers. Fleet battles would be much more than counting battleships. I assume there will be people that disagree with me but once again I ask you to do it in a manner that is constructive. I welcome and indeed am eager for input from other players so that we can pound this into a real idea fit for the ideas forum. --------- The words "Exciting" and "Safe" are mutually exclusive; pick one.
Dark Shikari	Posted - 2005.06.13 09:38:00 - [3] Just to point out, bigger ships have been made weaker since day one and smaller ships boosted nearly every patch. Heavy drones used to be able to hit frigs--now they can't, for example. 18 months ago, flying in a frig was suicide, as you could hit it even if it was orbiting you. Nowadays, a proper frig squadron can devastate even multiple battleships. -- The best description of alliances, ever:
Maule	Posted - 2005.06.13 09:48:00 - [4] What you say is not all true. some of it is. but it is possible to scramble a bs whitout getting hit. just yesterday 4 or 5 FA bs shot at my frigate only hitting me once.. it just depends on how you fly. If you fly right at them chances are your dead when they lock you. but if you fly to the siden they will have a much harder time hitting you
Derisor	Posted - 2005.06.13 09:50:00 - [5] Originally by: Maule What you say is not all true. some of it is. but it is possible to scramble a bs whitout getting hit. just yesterday 4 or 5 FA bs shot at my frigate only hitting me once.. it just depends on how you fly. If you fly right at them chances are your dead when they lock you. but if you fly to the siden they will have a much harder time hitting you Granted that helps but I would say that the enemy ships probably didnt know what they are doing. However, if you are crawling out to a sniper at 1.5km /sec you need 75 seconds to get to him; and that is in a straight line to him. Try it with an orbit line and you will need a lot more. Most battles in eve are over in far less time than that. --------- The words "Exciting" and "Safe" are mutually exclusive; pick one.
Elve Sorrow	Posted - 2005.06.13 09:51:00 - [6] Originally by: Derisor Furthermore, when the ships are zooming up to the battleship, their angular velocity is near 0 as they try to close the 100km distance to the sniper (they rarely get there). You must be a clueless frigate pilot if you approach sniper battleships with near zero transversal. Besides that, i sortof agree and disagree. The only real issues i have are Ravens owning frigate fleets (Which is being solved) and sniper battleships + Target Painters owning frigates. Anything but those two and a decent frigate pilot can get out alive. I disagree about Interceptors going 12km/sec. Frig v frig combat is already way too fast. It's quite easy for a slower Interceptor to get at his optimal range with a bit of manouvring. What needs to happen is frigate and Interceptor base speed needs to be upped to the current speeds with an Afterburner on. Then, ABs and MWDs need to be dropped in effectiveness. Alternatively, you could make MWDs as you suggest, but make them fit their description: "Massive boost to speed for a very short time". Make MWDs unsustainable, much like on battleships. Then the 12km/sec would be cool, as its then used only for approaching other ships and not as an actual combat feature. Additionally, it's rather easy to kill a battleships in a Heavy Assault, Assault Frigate, or even an Interceptor. 90% Of the battleships out there are stupid and/or lazy and do not fit any anti-frigate gear. Often they do not even carry drones! And tbh, they kinda deserve to die. /Elve New Video out! Watch me!
Derisor	Posted - 2005.06.13 09:53:00 - [7] Originally by: Dark Shikari Just to point out, bigger ships have been made weaker since day one and smaller ships boosted nearly every patch. Heavy drones used to be able to hit frigs--now they can't, for example. 18 months ago, flying in a frig was suicide, as you could hit it even if it was orbiting you. Nowadays, a proper frig squadron can devastate even multiple battleships. Well I have not seen frigs take out a BS flown by a knowledgable driver unless there were a whole lot of them and they are using tech 2 frigs. That is ok though, I dont mind that. Frigs shouldnt be soloing BSes. Im not for making heavies weaker but for prioritizing them to hit the other heavies and cruisers. BSes should kill bses and cruisers. Frigs should kill frigs and cruisers. Intys should kill frigs. Everything should kill haulers/miners. --------- The words "Exciting" and "Safe" are mutually exclusive; pick one.
Avon	Posted - 2005.06.13 09:57:00 - [8] Derisor, where so you get these wacky ideas? Have you actually ever actively PvP'd, or have you always just been a victim? I ask because your posts rarely reflect the realities of Eve. Killing BS's in frigates isn't really all that hard, simply because BS's hardly ever pack adequate defence against them. If bigger ships = win was true, all you would ever see is BS's. Is that the case? No. Clearly there is something wrong with your reasoning. ______________________________________________ Never argue with idiots. They will just drag it down to their level, and then beat you through experience.
Derisor	Posted - 2005.06.13 09:59:00 - [9] Originally by: Elve Sorrow You must be a clueless frigate pilot if you approach sniper battleships with near zero transversal. Yes but your transversal falls off massively with distance. 1 radian at 500km radius is small. One radian at 60km is huge. You will be taking a lot longer to get to him. Your one chance is to zig zag but then you take a lot longer to get to the sniper. And even when you do, your fleet cant jump to you because of the 150km rule. Originally by: Elve Sorrow Additionally, it's rather easy to kill a battleships in a Heavy Assault, Assault Frigate, or even an Interceptor. 90% Of the battleships out there are stupid and/or lazy and do not fit any anti-frigate gear. Often they do not even carry drones! And tbh, they kinda deserve to die. Never depend on your enemy being incompetent. --------- The words "Exciting" and "Safe" are mutually exclusive; pick one.
Rod Blaine	Posted - 2005.06.13 10:00:00 - [10] Originally by: Derisor Originally by: Dark Shikari Just to point out, bigger ships have been made weaker since day one and smaller ships boosted nearly every patch. Heavy drones used to be able to hit frigs--now they can't, for example. 18 months ago, flying in a frig was suicide, as you could hit it even if it was orbiting you. Nowadays, a proper frig squadron can devastate even multiple battleships. Well I have not seen frigs take out a BS flown by a knowledgable driver unless there were a whole lot of them and they are using tech 2 frigs. That is ok though, I dont mind that. Frigs shouldnt be soloing BSes. Im not for making heavies weaker but for prioritizing them to hit the other heavies and cruisers. BSes should kill bses and cruisers. Frigs should kill frigs and cruisers. Intys should kill frigs. Everything should kill haulers/miners. Well, that's exactly how it is Derisor. BS kill cruisers and BS Cruisers kill cruisers and frigs Frigs can kill everything if there's enough of them. Knowledgeable or not, when you as a bs pilot run into one of our frig gangs and it has enough tackling power to tackle you, you are dead. End of story, no skill or experience involved. Snipers are a seperate issue, and nothing to do with ship size. The biggest threat to a frigate is not a sniping BS, but a sniping Eagle. The BS will miss you (even in a tech friggie) if you are good. The eagle will toast you. But like you said, thats allright. Its a specialised ship fit for that task. So, all that really is left from your enormous post is that snipers are too hard to catch. Well, warping in at up to 250km could just as well solve that issue. All you need then is a ss in approximately the right direction. _______________________________________________ Yes yes, blogging is passÚ I know. Rod's Ramblingz on Eve-Online Solutions to your issues.
Dukath	Posted - 2005.06.13 10:02:00 - [11] I've been thinking about this too, and i believe speed is the factor that could solve the lot, and a lot of problems at the same time. change big guns => tiny falloff with fallof affecting hit chances in both directions. me a < \| b > if \| represents optimal and < > represents the falloff range then my gun would hit b quite a lot but only 0.0001 of the shots would hit a. Now remember its very easy to change the optimal by activating or deactivating tracking computers or by switching ammo so ships would still have options to fight over quite a nice range. right now the situation is more like me < a \| b > fast ships will have it a lot easier to move in and out of gun ranges of battleships. This alone would make cruisers and frigs survive a lot easier. since it easily takes battleships 15 seconds to change their ammo. (this would require a slight missile nerf since missiles are not affected by this, but then it would make missiles more unique again which can only be good)
Sonorra Baki	Posted - 2005.06.13 10:02:00 - [12] I agree with every word. I know its just a game, but if RL fleet battles was played the same way, US navy would only consist of carriers. This is not the case, though god-all-mighty powerfull, an aircraft carrier is only ever usedfull in a complete carrier group with several destroyers, cruisers and quite often a nuke sub aswell. Most Missile users complain that a 10 Gigaton Juggernaut Torp hitting a frig should certainly kill it. Year, well, but it could never hit, so it shouldnt hurt it. Same with guns. 1400mm Howie hitting a car goin 100mph towards it? no way. Why was it again that USS Cole was blown up? a zodiac craft wasnt it? Ive got a new Eve hookline for those Science channel adds: Wanna hit a humming bird with a potato gun? Its no longer impossible! - Play EVE online, Where size does matter.
Rod Blaine	Posted - 2005.06.13 10:08:00 - [13] Rofl. I invite you to come along and fight my mixed gang with your BS gang. I'll grant you the right of bringing the exact same numbers I have, including all ships. So every frig I'll bring will be a BS less for my gang. Wihtout scouts, tacklers or fast support you can never be anywhere near optimum efficiency in combat, period. _______________________________________________ Yes yes, blogging is passÚ I know. Rod's Ramblingz on Eve-Online Solutions to your issues.
Rod Blaine	Posted - 2005.06.13 10:10:00 - [14] Originally by: Dukath I've been thinking about this too, and i believe speed is the factor that could solve the lot, and a lot of problems at the same time. change big guns => tiny falloff with fallof affecting hit chances in both directions. me a < \| b > if \| represents optimal and < > represents the falloff range then my gun would hit b quite a lot but only 0.0001 of the shots would hit a. Now remember its very easy to change the optimal by activating or deactivating tracking computers or by switching ammo so ships would still have options to fight over quite a nice range. right now the situation is more like me < a \| b > fast ships will have it a lot easier to move in and out of gun ranges of battleships. This alone would make cruisers and frigs survive a lot easier. since it easily takes battleships 15 seconds to change their ammo. (this would require a slight missile nerf since missiles are not affected by this, but then it would make missiles more unique again which can only be good) That does sound worth at least a test server patch imo. There's alot of possibilities in that, but it should be a ***** to balance. _______________________________________________ Yes yes, blogging is passÚ I know. Rod's Ramblingz on Eve-Online Solutions to your issues.
ollobrains	Posted - 2005.06.13 10:13:00 - [15] well solo frigs shouldnt be tackling solo BS - lol that said most BS pilots fit for other BS - i agree some chagnes are needed but frigates are a lot cheaper than BS and ive seen it done that properly fitted 5 team frigates can take a BS in under a minute. Of course 1-2 of those players will probbaly lose their frigs (cheap enough to replace) the BS unless fitted for anti frig duties is toast. We do need some sort of anti NOS equipment that reduces the amount of energy another ship can take. We need more diversified cloaking equipment - we need destroyers to have more roles. We also need a ship in between battlecruisers and battleships (we have elite cruisers and firgates we need an elite battlecruiser) that said in high sec space it becomes a matter of picking the right ship for the right mission - in low sec its a bit more dangerous with 1 battleship sniping and 5-7 battleships shield recharging it to cope with the sentry guns - what we need is if a battleship attacks someone at the gate then any ships recharging their shields or armour with remote systems also can be targetted and shot by the sentry guns. Or at least receive gang "splash" damage 0.0 space well a well co ordinated alliance defending or attacking or even a gang of pirates with specific types of ships in a group of 4-5 can do pretty well. Heck some alliances are now even using frig squads to attack and defend stations. "frig raids" and they are cheaper and do work. SO i sort of agree and disagree on lots of those points.
Derisor	Posted - 2005.06.13 10:15:00 - [16] Yes if you have tacklers and more experienced pilots, the all BS fleet will loose. However, if they pop all your tacklers first (as they should) then you will be looking at 3 to 1 odds with 3 bses on you. You may be able to warp out but warping out is not the same as winning the fight. In any fleet battle I have seen, the experienced boys pop the tacklers first. I dont have problems with anything except that battleships shouldnt be able to hit tacklers AT ALL without mounting small guns. Yes, you can get cruisers and frigs to take out the enemy tacklers but it isnt really needed. --------- The words "Exciting" and "Safe" are mutually exclusive; pick one.
oxigenw	Posted - 2005.06.13 10:16:00 - [17] Originally by: Dark Shikari Heavy drones used to be able to hit frigs--now they can't, for example. Heavy drones still hit frigs/inty's/assaults. So this is just wrong. It even saved my ass. ---
Joshua Calvert	Posted - 2005.06.13 10:19:00 - [18] WTB: Derisors pigeon-hole. Originally by: Derisor If a BS locks you, you are pretty much screwed. This shows so much for your way of thinking. Ever heard of modules that can prevent a BS locking you? Ever thought that a sniping BS is so much toast if you get in close? So, you lose a frigate or two on the approach, but he's still dead. A sniping BS generally has very little tanking. Ever thought the downside of trying to tackle a sniping BS with frigates is that you're MEANT to have 0 angular velocity when approaching from a straight line? D'oh. I really do wonder at how much PVP experience you have when you think all a BS has to do to wtfpwn frigates is just turn up and press Alt F1 then F1 to F6. It is already hard enough for large guns to hit frigates, thankyouverymuch. The only way large guns can hit frigates with any sort of reliability is pre-planning a range and a crapload of tracking. LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!
Rod Blaine	Posted - 2005.06.13 10:25:00 - [19] Edited by: Rod Blaine on 13/06/2005 10:25:24 Originally by: Derisor In any fleet battle I have seen, the experienced boys pop the tacklers first. I invite you to come fleet battle me and my gang that has less BS and pop all my tacklers first. By the time you're finished with them I'll have more BS then you do. _______________________________________________ Yes yes, blogging is passÚ I know. Rod's Ramblingz on Eve-Online Solutions to your issues.
infused	Posted - 2005.06.13 10:27:00 - [20] Originally by: Elve Sorrow Originally by: Derisor I disagree about Interceptors going 12km/sec. Frig v frig combat is already way too fast. It's quite easy for a slower Interceptor to get at his optimal range with a bit of manouvring. What needs to happen is frigate and Interceptor base speed needs to be upped to the current speeds with an Afterburner on. Then, ABs and MWDs need to be dropped in effectiveness. Best suggestion yet. (\_/) (O.o) (> <) This is Bunny. Copy Bunny into your signature to help him on his way to world domination.
Largonian Doyle	Posted - 2005.06.13 10:28:00 - [21] uhmmmmmmmm im supprised how tough ships are now after havign been gone for 6 months, you can blow a bs with 2 frigs or even one with some luck. i dont see a problem...
ollobrains	Posted - 2005.06.13 10:33:00 - [22] i think derision hasnt really got a) the skills b) the right set up c) enoguh experience to see the bleeding obvious and that a 1 or 2 frig group can take a BS - of course experienced and well prepared BS pilots with the right set up will pop this attack given the right circumstances but some that arent set up for it might just go down as well.
Zinjan	Posted - 2005.06.13 10:37:00 - [23] As for BS' being out long range, you don't approach him. We have the covert's as tool to get right on top of him and tackle him at our desired range.
Rod Blaine	Posted - 2005.06.13 10:38:00 - [24] Originally by: ollobrains i think derision hasnt really got a) the skills b) the right set up c) enoguh experience to see the bleeding obvious and that a 1 or 2 frig group can take a BS - of course experienced and well prepared BS pilots with the right set up will pop this attack given the right circumstances but some that arent set up for it might just go down as well. No, he made the simple mistake of seeing a problem with sniping distance and extrapolating from that that three therefore must be an issue with large guns hitting frigates. It's not stupid, nor says anything about him somehow falling short in experience or whatever. Some of his later comments do show his limited experience but that's not a bad thing either, as long as he sees and accepts that he could also be wrong. _______________________________________________ Yes yes, blogging is passÚ I know. Rod's Ramblingz on Eve-Online Solutions to your issues.
darth solo	Posted - 2005.06.13 10:46:00 - [25] NOS. d solo.
Derisor	Posted - 2005.06.13 10:49:00 - [26] Oh I grant that Im no expert in PvP. Certainly. Im just reporting what I have seen up close and from afar. However, I will ask you this. What problem do you have with battleships not being able to hit frigates and if the frigates are so survivable and so well balanced then why is Oveur talking aobut increasing their survivability and putting patches in the game to affect their survivability? --------- The words "Exciting" and "Safe" are mutually exclusive; pick one.
Avon	Posted - 2005.06.13 10:50:00 - [27] Originally by: darth solo NOS. d solo. Nos is over-rated as a defence imho. 1 target and more than one cycle to slow them ... and they can get in and out of range quickly. It won't save you from a group of frigates. (Don't get me wrong, NOS is ace, but it doesn't defeat a co-ordinated frig attack) ______________________________________________ Never argue with idiots. They will just drag it down to their level, and then beat you through experience.
Joshua Calvert	Posted - 2005.06.13 10:51:00 - [28] Originally by: Derisor Oh I grant that Im no expert in PvP. Certainly. Im just reporting what I have seen up close and from afar. However, I will ask you this. What problem do you have with battleships not being able to hit frigates and if the frigates are so survivable and so well balanced then why is Oveur talking aobut increasing their survivability and putting patches in the game to affect their survivability? He listened to people like you? Anyway, frigate survivability is probably the first step on the road to HP readjustment. LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!
Avon	Posted - 2005.06.13 10:53:00 - [29] Edited by: Avon on 13/06/2005 10:53:46 Originally by: Derisor Oh I grant that Im no expert in PvP. Certainly. Im just reporting what I have seen up close and from afar. However, I will ask you this. What problem do you have with battleships not being able to hit frigates and if the frigates are so survivable and so well balanced then why is Oveur talking aobut increasing their survivability and putting patches in the game to affect their survivability? MWD was given a sig radius penalty, and the fitting of oversized A/Bs was nerfed to make frigates easier to hit. You have to look at historical changes as well as future proposals to see where frigates fit in. Remember, there was a time when tracking made no difference, speed was meaningless - your bs could hit frigates all the time with its biggest guns. It used to be BS hit every frigate. Then BS hits no frigates. Frigates are probably at about the right point now, any tweaking should be very minor. ______________________________________________ Never argue with idiots. They will just drag it down to their level, and then beat you through experience.
Rod Blaine	Posted - 2005.06.13 10:54:00 - [30] Originally by: Derisor Oh I grant that Im no expert in PvP. Certainly. Im just reporting what I have seen up close and from afar. However, I will ask you this. What problem do you have with battleships not being able to hit frigates and if the frigates are so survivable and so well balanced then why is Oveur talking aobut increasing their survivability and putting patches in the game to affect their survivability? That's in response to the sniping problem and missiles I gather. Which is indeed understandable since I would agree snipers have too much going for them defensively atm.. Missiles are going to get handled already. Aside from those two frigs do not need more survivability. If you dont agree feel free to check our killboards at www.killboard.net for references of frigate power at this time. _______________________________________________ Yes yes, blogging is passÚ I know. Rod's Ramblingz on Eve-Online Solutions to your issues.

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