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"Biggest ship wins." The disease of Eve.

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Joshua Calvert	Posted - 2005.06.13 13:46:00 - [61] Originally by: Shayla Sh'inlux These numbers would have some actual truth if a pilot was not an actual asset. It's the number of pilots available that limites your fleet. Not the amount of isk involved, making the 20x as cost effective an empty calculation based on the non-existant condition that pilots are in unlimited supply. So surely that means you adjust your goals/strategy to fit your own limitations. LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!
Kunming	Posted - 2005.06.13 14:05:00 - [62] Shayla put it up pretty nice actually, but I'll try to put it simplier for those that dont get it. BS with large turrets = effective vs BS and frigate all we want is large turrets = crap vs frigs so if you wanna protect that "expensive" ship from frigs, u either gonna fit something effective vs frig or bring someone in a smaller class ship as support, thus have more mixed fleets and diversity. Also someone pls explain me why a ship should be uber just cause it was expensive (and I mean this seriously).. Intercepting since BETA
Joshua Calvert	Posted - 2005.06.13 14:07:00 - [63] Originally by: Kunming Shayla put it up pretty nice actually, but I'll try to put it simplier for those that dont get it. BS with large turrets = effective vs BS and frigate all we want is large turrets = crap vs frigs so if you wanna protect that "expensive" ship from frigs, u either gonna fit something effective vs frig or bring someone in a smaller class ship as support, thus have more mixed fleets and diversity. Also someone pls explain me why a ship should be uber just cause it was expensive (and I mean this seriously).. But large turrets do suck against frigates unless the frigate exposes himself at ranges where the tracking becomes more efficient. LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!
Avon	Posted - 2005.06.13 14:08:00 - [64] Originally by: Kunming Shayla put it up pretty nice actually, but I'll try to put it simplier for those that dont get it. BS with large turrets = effective vs BS and frigate all we want is large turrets = crap vs frigs so if you wanna protect that "expensive" ship from frigs, u either gonna fit something effective vs frig or bring someone in a smaller class ship as support, thus have more mixed fleets and diversity. Also someone pls explain me why a ship should be uber just cause it was expensive (and I mean this seriously).. Large turrets aren't uber against frigates, unless you mwd directly towards / away from them. If turrets are causing you problems, fit a tracking disruptor. ______________________________________________ Never argue with idiots. They will just drag it down to their level, and then beat you through experience.
Rod Blaine	Posted - 2005.06.13 14:10:00 - [65] I simply dont agree that large turrets are effective versus frigates. Sure, when youve got all tracking mods, a target painter or two and the frig uses his mwd and you sit at 50km shooting it you will kill it rpetty easily. But then again, that means you have the tracking mods and targwet painters fitted, and as such are adapted for killing frigates. A similar BS without tracking mods but damage mods instead would own your BS in no time in that case. In my experience, my 425mm rails dont hit frigates for crap if the frig pilot knows what he is doing and is anywhere closer then 70km from me. Which is about right imo. _______________________________________________ Yes yes, blogging is passÚ I know. Rod's Ramblingz on Eve-Online Solutions to your issues.
MaiLina KaTar	Posted - 2005.06.13 14:14:00 - [66] Originally by: Avon If turrets are causing you problems, fit a tracking disruptor. Nooooees!!1!!!eleven!! Ooooi should able two dodge teh longrange battleship fire without doin' anytaaaaang!! If oooii dun win cuz of my crap-a-delic tactics 's not balanced k?! Mai's Idealog
Avon	Posted - 2005.06.13 14:16:00 - [67] Originally by: MaiLina KaTar Originally by: Avon If turrets are causing you problems, fit a tracking disruptor. Nooooees!!1!!!eleven!! Ooooi should able two dodge teh longrange battleship fire without doin' anytaaaaang!! If oooii dun win cuz of my crap-a-delic tactics 's not balanced k?! Gah, I tried applying logic again, didn't I? You're right, it was dumb of me. ______________________________________________ Never argue with idiots. They will just drag it down to their level, and then beat you through experience.
Fred0	Posted - 2005.06.13 14:17:00 - [68] Originally by: Kunming Also someone pls explain me why a ship should be uber just cause it was expensive (and I mean this seriously).. Because it's the absolute simplest and smartest way of having any resemblance of balance in pvp. In three words this epitomises: Risk versus Reward.
Kunming	Posted - 2005.06.13 14:17:00 - [69] Originally by: Joshua Calvert Originally by: Kunming Shayla put it up pretty nice actually, but I'll try to put it simplier for those that dont get it. BS with large turrets = effective vs BS and frigate all we want is large turrets = crap vs frigs so if you wanna protect that "expensive" ship from frigs, u either gonna fit something effective vs frig or bring someone in a smaller class ship as support, thus have more mixed fleets and diversity. Also someone pls explain me why a ship should be uber just cause it was expensive (and I mean this seriously).. But large turrets do suck against frigates unless the frigate exposes himself at ranges where the tracking becomes more efficient. 1 on 1 neither the BS nor the frig can win thats true. Lets have a look at this though: Lets say we are fighting together in 2 BSs vs some frigs, we sit 40-50km away from each other. The frigs attack us and I target the ones around ur ship, you target the ones around my ship... Now the transversal of them is too high for me to kill the ones around my BS with my large turrets but I can easyly pop the ones around ur BS, u do the same and its all over in a short time. See what I mean now? Intercepting since BETA
Fred0	Posted - 2005.06.13 14:20:00 - [70] Originally by: Kunming Lets say we are fighting together in 2 BSs vs some frigs, we sit 40-50km away from each other. The frigs attack us and I target the ones around ur ship, you target the ones around my ship... Now the transversal of them is too high for me to kill the ones around my BS with my large turrets but I can easyly pop the ones around ur BS, u do the same and its all over in a short time. See what I mean now? 40-50k is not enough. I need to go above 120k to hit interceptors effectively. and that's a maxed out tempest with tracking implants on top. Granted I have the worst tracking large gun in the game, but anyway.
Kunming	Posted - 2005.06.13 14:23:00 - [71] Originally by: Fred0 Originally by: Kunming Lets say we are fighting together in 2 BSs vs some frigs, we sit 40-50km away from each other. The frigs attack us and I target the ones around ur ship, you target the ones around my ship... Now the transversal of them is too high for me to kill the ones around my BS with my large turrets but I can easyly pop the ones around ur BS, u do the same and its all over in a short time. See what I mean now? 40-50k is not enough. I need to go above 120k to hit interceptors effectively. and that's a maxed out tempest with tracking implants on top. Granted I have the worst tracking large gun in the game, but anyway. Its enough if u have short range, if u have sniping setup it means that u'll pop anything from 120km before it reaches u anyway, or warp out. Intercepting since BETA
Rod Blaine	Posted - 2005.06.13 14:23:00 - [72] Edited by: Rod Blaine on 13/06/2005 14:26:07 Originally by: Fred0 Originally by: Kunming Lets say we are fighting together in 2 BSs vs some frigs, we sit 40-50km away from each other. The frigs attack us and I target the ones around ur ship, you target the ones around my ship... Now the transversal of them is too high for me to kill the ones around my BS with my large turrets but I can easyly pop the ones around ur BS, u do the same and its all over in a short time. See what I mean now? 40-50k is not enough. I need to go above 120k to hit interceptors effectively. and that's a maxed out tempest with tracking implants on top. Granted I have the worst tracking large gun in the game, but anyway. Rails wont do it either, unless you fit for hightened tracking. Remember that tracking computers are no longer standard fleet or BS setup anymore. They got replaced by tracking disruptors, sensor boosters and target painters. the latter will help of course, but then again, I never said we dont need stealth modules, not that I like the effectivity of target painters in general. And fitting short range high tracking turrets ro in some way heightening your tracking so you can hit frigates at 40-50km means you deserve to, since your guns are gonna suck when you meet another BS instead of frigs. _______________________________________________ Yes yes, blogging is passÚ I know. Rod's Ramblingz on Eve-Online Solutions to your issues.
Kunming	Posted - 2005.06.13 14:47:00 - [73] Originally by: Rod Blaine Edited by: Rod Blaine on 13/06/2005 14:26:07 Originally by: Fred0 Originally by: Kunming Lets say we are fighting together in 2 BSs vs some frigs, we sit 40-50km away from each other. The frigs attack us and I target the ones around ur ship, you target the ones around my ship... Now the transversal of them is too high for me to kill the ones around my BS with my large turrets but I can easyly pop the ones around ur BS, u do the same and its all over in a short time. See what I mean now? 40-50k is not enough. I need to go above 120k to hit interceptors effectively. and that's a maxed out tempest with tracking implants on top. Granted I have the worst tracking large gun in the game, but anyway. Rails wont do it either, unless you fit for hightened tracking. Remember that tracking computers are no longer standard fleet or BS setup anymore. They got replaced by tracking disruptors, sensor boosters and target painters. the latter will help of course, but then again, I never said we dont need stealth modules, not that I like the effectivity of target painters in general. And fitting short range high tracking turrets ro in some way heightening your tracking so you can hit frigates at 40-50km means you deserve to, since your guns are gonna suck when you meet another BS instead of frigs. U mean mega pulse, etc are anti frig weapons? The only reason we see less short range setups these days is cause long range (thats no long range actually thats extreme range) cant be neutralised by remote sensor damps or ECM anymore, quite overpowered if u ask me, thats not the point here though. Long range or short range, large turrets hit frigs very good if its not orbiting the firing ship. Then they change target and fire on a BS with same dmg!! Intercepting since BETA
darth solo	Posted - 2005.06.13 15:08:00 - [74] Originally by: bUBbLeS i'll 1v1 u anytime in my HAC u bring yah bship....(make it an apoc plz!) :P arranging a 1v1 against a BS in a hac would be suicide.. he would surelly fit 2 heavy nos meaning u would die and he would win. d solo.
Avon	Posted - 2005.06.13 15:10:00 - [75] I give up on this thread. I fly frigates most of the time. I don't fear most BS's. I have hardly ever been killed by a BS whilst flying a frig. I guess if you sit a long way off, not moving, with your MWD on then you kinda deserve to die, but in reality large turrets just aren't a threat. I have a feeling some of the ideas and thoughts in this thread are exactly that, because they don't reflect the reality of Eve at all. ______________________________________________ Never argue with idiots. They will just drag it down to their level, and then beat you through experience.
Avon	Posted - 2005.06.13 15:12:00 - [76] Originally by: darth solo Originally by: bUBbLeS i'll 1v1 u anytime in my HAC u bring yah bship....(make it an apoc plz!) :P arranging a 1v1 against a BS in a hac would be suicide.. he would surelly fit 2 heavy nos meaning u would die and he would win. d solo. HAC gets to pick the range as it is faster. Just pick 22km. ______________________________________________ Never argue with idiots. They will just drag it down to their level, and then beat you through experience.
Blind Fear	Posted - 2005.06.13 15:17:00 - [77] Is this thread a joke? "If a BS locks your frigate, youre pretty much screwed"? Are you playing the same game as me, because I don't think that you are.
Nyxus	Posted - 2005.06.13 15:27:00 - [78] Frig defense is about right. With the missile fix and the ability to warp in @ 100km to objects hopefully in the next patch all will be well for small ships. Easier to get to the snipers, missiles wont instapop you anymore. Personally, after the patch I am going out in my friggie to utterly destroy every Raven I can find for revenge. I do agree with some of the other posters that the Frig damage ratio is WAY off atm. Destroyers are great for killing T1 frigs. Tech 2 destroyers will be great for killing T2 frigs. Hurry and put them out! The same with T2 BC's. However, I regularly see (and do myself) Tech 2 Frigates hitting Battleships for 100+ damage. 280 II's hit for 150+ with wreckings up to 400 (thank you Target Painter II's!). That is battleship sized damage being produced by frigates. To me, that is just wrong. Frigates are tacklers, not primary damage dealers. Frigate damage should be reduced vs Battleships so that: A: You need to bring a HUGE number of frigates to take down a BS (ie 10:1 or more) and it still takes a long time to do it (thank you 30m pvp timer!) B: You need a mixed fleet of Cruisers/Frigs to take down Battleships effectively. Look at the comparitive masses of the 2 ships. Battleships are 10 times as large. Inties should not be able to kill even untanked battleships easily. Tackle and call for backup, yes. Kill, no. Someone gave a rl example of a dingie with a 22 cal machine gun attacking an aircraft carrier. This is what it should be like, but as I detest RL examples as erroneous, I will provide an alternate example. In Star Wars small fighters flew in between Battleships and attacked them, but primarily attacked other small ships. Why? Because they couldn't do effective damage without vast numbers (or smashing an A-Wing into the command deck of a Super Star Destroyer). I think Eve would be a lot more fun if this model were followed. Let the inties swarm around my Battleship as I focus fire on the main threat - other battleships or Cruisers. I want to see frigates playing hide-and-seek in an among the Battleships and not worry about being shot from them. As it stands its really pathetic when I see a Megapulse hit my Battleship for 110 damage, while a Small Howie II hits me for 150. "Gunner, ignore that Apocalypse class Battleship and focus fire on that Claw Interceptor! It's doing more damage!" It just seems silly. Nyxus
Gariuys	Posted - 2005.06.13 15:34:00 - [79] Derisor, you got way too much time. Here's a thought, instead of using that time to post this nice thread of lets say "questionable" remarks. You could go ingame, and play. Cause just looking at the box doesn't exactly tell you how things work. Originally by: Derisor Today its not like that. If a BS locks you, you are pretty much screwed. Quoted, cause I really like that part. Nuff said really. ~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~ A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool
Dukath	Posted - 2005.06.13 15:44:00 - [80] Originally by: Rod Blaine I simply dont agree that large turrets are effective versus frigates. Sure, when youve got all tracking mods, a target painter or two and the frig uses his mwd and you sit at 50km shooting it you will kill it rpetty easily. But then again, that means you have the tracking mods and targwet painters fitted, and as such are adapted for killing frigates. A similar BS without tracking mods but damage mods instead would own your BS in no time in that case. In my experience, my 425mm rails dont hit frigates for crap if the frig pilot knows what he is doing and is anywhere closer then 70km from me. Which is about right imo. The problem with this is that its also a fleet setup. You fit for sniping or fleet combat and because you already fit tracking computers for the extra range you suddenly get a major bonus is tracking and locking speed too. Its not so mucha problem of frigates as it is a problem of those modules giving 2 bonuses in stead of one bonus and one penalty. (increase range, lower tracking, increase tracking, lower range, increase locking range = higher locking time etc) This would be much more balanced than the current situation. (would also remove the ridiculous instakilling snipers. People will sill be able to snipe, only it will take them a bit longer to lock you, giving you a chance to make a run for the gate)
Rod Blaine	Posted - 2005.06.13 15:54:00 - [81] Oh, tha tpart I could agree with, altho tackingcomputers arent the fleet setup fad they once anymore either. I believe its target painters and tracking disruptors ftw at this point. _______________________________________________ Yes yes, blogging is passÚ I know. Rod's Ramblingz on Eve-Online Solutions to your issues.
Kunming	Posted - 2005.06.13 16:00:00 - [82] Originally by: Rod Blaine ...tracking disruptors ftw at this point. Maybe cause they changed the beachball effect Intercepting since BETA
Derisor	Posted - 2005.06.13 16:15:00 - [83] Originally by: Rod Blaine I simply dont agree that large turrets are effective versus frigates. Sure, when youve got all tracking mods, a target painter or two and the frig uses his mwd and you sit at 50km shooting it you will kill it rpetty easily. But then again, that means you have the tracking mods and targwet painters fitted, and as such are adapted for killing frigates. A similar BS without tracking mods but damage mods instead would own your BS in no time in that case. In my experience, my 425mm rails dont hit frigates for crap if the frig pilot knows what he is doing and is anywhere closer then 70km from me. Which is about right imo. In order to get angular velocity at range to confuse large guns you would need to go enormously fast. Joshua you forget that the effect of angular velocity diminishes enormously at range. At 100km, the frig would need to be doing somthing like 39km/s to outrun the tracking speed on your guns. Second of all, a frig that doesnt use his MWD is either 1) dead or 2) not a threat. Again, warping away from a fight is not an effective counter to a fight. Running away does not count as coutnering it. So our hypothetical fight with a 60km off BS, the frig does 1) MWDs right up to you as fast as possible and still he will take nearly 30 seconds to close that distance. 2) MWDs angular to you in a rather vain hope that your guns wont hit him (he still is only doing about 0.005 radians per second at that range. At any rate it will take him 3 to 4 minutes to get to you. There have been soem things said in this thread that are just patently rediculous. YOu cant compare by costs because 3 or 4 assault frigs are easily worth a BS after modules. Furthermore, you cant talk about balance with the assumption that your opponet is an idiot or has an empty ship with no modules fitted. You have to level the field and talk competent pilot to competent pilot. I assure you that a large gun can pop even a frig at an angle from you. If he is locked, he warps or dies, its simple as that. That is not a legit counter. Nor can you say "jump to the covops ship" because the minimum warp distance is 150km. Large guns shouldnt hit frigs except once in a bloody blue moon. It thsould have about 1 in 100 chance of hitting him. --------- The words "Exciting" and "Safe" are mutually exclusive; pick one.
Derisor	Posted - 2005.06.13 16:18:00 - [84] Originally by: Fred0 Originally by: Kunming Lets say we are fighting together in 2 BSs vs some frigs, we sit 40-50km away from each other. The frigs attack us and I target the ones around ur ship, you target the ones around my ship... Now the transversal of them is too high for me to kill the ones around my BS with my large turrets but I can easyly pop the ones around ur BS, u do the same and its all over in a short time. See what I mean now? 40-50k is not enough. I need to go above 120k to hit interceptors effectively. and that's a maxed out tempest with tracking implants on top. Granted I have the worst tracking large gun in the game, but anyway. Frigates, we are talkign about frigates primarily. not t2 intys which can be popped just as easily. You do the math and figure out what the angular velocity of the frig is 5km orbiting your friend and 60km away from you. Go in the game and try it. --------- The words "Exciting" and "Safe" are mutually exclusive; pick one.
Winterblink	Posted - 2005.06.13 16:35:00 - [85] Originally by: Kunming Maybe cause they changed the beachball effect Did they fix that finally? Cool. :) Now my next question (because I've never tried this), do they work on NPCs now? :D I kinda thought the beachball was funky. ___winterblink/warp_drive_active/eve_nature_vraie//
Joshua Calvert	Posted - 2005.06.13 16:42:00 - [86] Edited by: Joshua Calvert on 13/06/2005 16:43:33 Originally by: Derisor In order to get angular velocity at range to confuse large guns you would need to go enormously fast. Joshua you forget that the effect of angular velocity diminishes enormously at range. At 100km, the frig would need to be doing somthing like 39km/s to outrun the tracking speed on your guns. Second of all, a frig that doesnt use his MWD is either 1) dead or 2) not a threat. Listen, I have not forgotten what angular velocity is and the affect of range upon it. the fact a frigate is vulnerable AT THOSE RANGES is how it is intended to be. Have you given thought that if a BS is setup to track well and hit at range, he is MEANT to hit a frigate which tries to engage him at those ranges? That is exactly what the diversity of modules we have is for. For variation and tactics. Just because you're clueless is no reason for the game to be changed. Originally by: Derisor Again, warping away from a fight is not an effective counter to a fight. Running away does not count as coutnering it. So our hypothetical fight with a 60km off BS, the frig does 1) MWDs right up to you as fast as possible and still he will take nearly 30 seconds to close that distance. 2) MWDs angular to you in a rather vain hope that your guns wont hit him (he still is only doing about 0.005 radians per second at that range. At any rate it will take him 3 to 4 minutes to get to you. Again, you show your ignorance or, perhaps, refusal to believe what you are being told. If you think those are the only ways to get close to a sniping BS, you are sadly mistaken and in need of more experience. Covert ops as a warp to? Sensor jamming/dampening? Target disruption? Originally by: Derisor I assure you that a large gun can pop even a frig at an angle from you. If he is locked, he warps or dies, its simple as that. That is not a legit counter. Nor can you say "jump to the covops ship" because the minimum warp distance is 150km. Large guns shouldnt hit frigs except once in a bloody blue moon. It thsould have about 1 in 100 chance of hitting him. Read this one thousand times then laugh as hard as I am laughing. LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!
Hllaxiu	Posted - 2005.06.13 16:44:00 - [87] Five page frigates aren't powerful enough thread and no mention of nerfing the large "I Win" button? (aka smartbomb) This forum is slacking!
Cosmic Dragon	Posted - 2005.06.13 16:50:00 - [88] Just to say me and one of my corpmates regually go into 0.0 in destroyers to kill Bships and we almost always end up killing a couple the secret is to use ecm to stop him locking you and a warp scrambler to stop him running then you just orbit him and keep firing till hes dead.
Kunming	Posted - 2005.06.13 16:53:00 - [89] Originally by: Hllaxiu Five page frigates aren't powerful enough thread and no mention of nerfing the large "I Win" button? (aka smartbomb) This forum is slacking! Thats cause its a balanced module as it is. U have cap drain and short range for an area effect weapon. Intercepting since BETA
MaiLina KaTar	Posted - 2005.06.13 16:58:00 - [90] Originally by: "Derisor" In order to get angular velocity at range to confuse large guns you would need to go enormously fast. Joshua you forget that the effect of angular velocity diminishes enormously at range. At 100km, the frig would need to be doing somthing like 39km/s to outrun the tracking speed on your guns. So what?! This is how it's designed and it works great. Why do you expect to be safe from longrange artillery fire[/b] when you put yourself in the worst possible situation... a range where this fire is [i]designed to hit you? Mai's Idealog

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