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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
12510
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Posted - 2013.01.06 17:34:00 -
[61] - Quote
YuuKnow wrote:...but the fight itself (watch it with the sound off) IMHO shows the problem. All the *major* players involved were fairly stationary and the end equation just like all other logi fights boiled down to dps vs rep. GǪand there is no way to ever change that while still maintaining any kind of rep functionality in the game. In fact, what you're suggesting would only make it worse: less room and reason to move around, and still be a matter of winning the applied DPS war.
Quote:Whatever tweak that will not have a real effect on large fleet warfare, while making small group more interesting. Not going to happen. If it works for the large fleet, it will work for the small one unless you make the system completely illogical unintuitive. As it is, logistics is what makes small group more interesting than large fights: because the logi actually make a difference and because there are so many ways to beat it that you have to account for on both sides.
Either way, whatever problem you think arises with logis, range isn't one of them.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan. |
YuuKnow
The Scope
623
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Posted - 2013.01.06 17:35:00 -
[62] - Quote
Tippia wrote:YuuKnow wrote:To make logi fights more variable and dynamic. Not really, no. People would just stay closer and it would end up being a straight nerf for no good reason. It's trying to solve a problem that doesn't even exist.
Their are no 'problems' in video games. Just game mechanics. The *challenge* is to make fights as intersting and dynamic as possible.
Again just look at ATX and New Eden Open to see how logi ships had to be restricted in order to protect the matches from the boredom which is the current logistics mechanics.
off for now
yk |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
12510
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Posted - 2013.01.06 17:41:00 -
[63] - Quote
YuuKnow wrote:Their are no 'problems' in video games. Just game mechanics. The *challenge* is to make fights as intersting and dynamic as possible. Reducing the ability to move around and making equipment choices less relevant achieves neither of those goals.
Quote:Again just look at ATX and New Eden Open to see how logi ships had to be restricted in order to protect the matches from the boredom which is the current logistics mechanics. GǪexcept that real fights don't ever work like that. They illustrate what happens when you mix people who don't understand how to win (by scoring points) with a restricted environment. You'll also notice that the teams that did logi-spam never won anything.
In terms of a real fight, that meant they lost, and if anything, the ability to stall a fight to that extent is an example of exactly the kind of interesting dynamics you're asking for: stay alive until you can break off or until reinforcements arrive (alternatively, pound the crap out of them before they can do either of those).
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan. |
Karak Terrel
As Far As The eYe can see
Chained Reactions
147
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Posted - 2013.01.06 17:44:00 -
[64] - Quote
YuuKnow wrote:
...but the fight itself (watch it with the sound off) IMHO shows the problem. All the *major* players involved were fairly stationary and the end equation just like all other logi fights boiled down to dps vs rep. Notice how at the end when the fight was "won" it was actually still going because R&K had won the dps vs rep equation? Lord Malfador states it plainly that Agent's rep is now unbeateable and the battle is now determined.
And you really watched it 10 times? Because AHARM had 2 triage carrier on the field, they even had at least one dred so they had superior rep and dps on the field. Now you say it then all boils down to dps vs rep, how come AHARM lost that fight?
I think you complete miss the point. You say you watched that video 10 times but did not notice that the key was cap warfare which rendered the enemy triage and dps useless. Also the reper you mentioned and the unbeatable tank was a local one.
there are tons of counters to logistic ships. Bringing tons of logis to the field is not a guaranteed win. I don't know why you demand CCP should nerf logis when you as well could prepare for them with a few modules even in a small fleet. There are actually many examples and suggestions how you can beat them all over this thread. |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
3264
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Posted - 2013.01.06 19:35:00 -
[65] - Quote
I'd prefer not to dumb down combat in favor of short range DPS beats all.
To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors.
If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |
Barbara Nichole
Cryogenic Consultancy
383
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Posted - 2013.01.06 19:52:00 -
[66] - Quote
YuuKnow wrote:Call me a whiner, and at the expected protest of the logi's, but why did CCP grant such an excessive rep range to all the logistic ships in the game? Seems like it makes maneuvering and mobility less of a factor and encourages more of a boring rock/paper/scissors game.
yk
Obviously you've never run an incursion where many times ships at the opposite end of each room are out of range - even with the long repping ranges. Snipers are easily out of range in many fightts due to their crazy long range ability.. We have to move in range to rep them. So if we nerf the rep range are we also going to nerf the sniper range? I don't think so.
-1 myopically bad idea.
-á-á- remove the cloaked from local; free intel is the real problem, not-á "afk" cloaking-á-
[IMG]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a208/DawnFrostbringer/consultsig.jpg[/IMG] |
Katran Luftschreck
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
693
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Posted - 2013.01.06 20:24:00 -
[67] - Quote
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:[quote=Moonaura]Imagine a ship that had a 1000% bonus to it's weapons range (autocannons, for example). Imagine a ship that equipped weapons and/or modules of a larger class, Tier 3 battlecruisers and stealth bombers come to mind. But, also imagine something like a Myrmidon with a large armor repairer or a Rokh with a capital class shield booster.
All destroyers get +50% range to their weapons. Numerous ships get massive bonuses to missile range. Also: Oracle, Naga, Talos and Tornado. Look 'em up.
EvE Forum Bingo |
Super spikinator
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
24
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Posted - 2013.01.06 22:04:00 -
[68] - Quote
Katran Luftschreck wrote:Mayhaw Morgan wrote:[quote=Moonaura]Imagine a ship that had a 1000% bonus to it's weapons range (autocannons, for example). Imagine a ship that equipped weapons and/or modules of a larger class, Tier 3 battlecruisers and stealth bombers come to mind. But, also imagine something like a Myrmidon with a large armor repairer or a Rokh with a capital class shield booster. All destroyers get +50% range to their weapons. Numerous ships get massive bonuses to missile range. Also: Oracle, Naga, Talos and Tornado. Look 'em up.
It is nice to bring up destroyer gun range since the destroyer base target range is a whopping 30km on average. They also have half the base shield, armour and hull of a logistics cruiser. Also, Destroyers are T1, for the killing of frigates, the base hull for interdictors and in the case of the cormorant - hobo mining.
Now, I agree that logistics cruiser should have some sort of range boost, considering that remote high slots do have some low ranges, they do have to look after a fleet and make sure the pewpew happens. What I think that people are trying to get at though is that perhaps they could have a little less range.
This topic, though, reminds me of an older series of topics about a single ship. That ship was doubly rebalanced by a rework of its bonuses and a nerf to its primary utility of choice. That ship was also a support ship, not a gunship. That ship was the Falcon. |
Olleybear
I R' Carebear
165
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Posted - 2013.01.06 23:19:00 -
[69] - Quote
Not all logistic ship pilots know how to fit or fly them. They make great targets of opportunity for pvpers when in the middle of a decent sized brawl.
What goes on in a 50 vs 50 man brawl? For starters, everyone is listening to their FC on who to shoot. People are screaming needing reps when they are shot and logistics are trying to keep up. People looking for cynos. Distractions all over the field of battle. Me, I'm in a T1 cruiser. What harm can I do?
What I'm going to be looking for is the opposing fleets logistics. Its great fun to mwd towards and lock down a logistics ship who is not expecting it. They panic and they try to run, but I am faster. This tidbit of chaos inserted into a fight has a chance of disrupting the logi chain and removing reps from my sides primary targets. Now, give me 1 or 2 more buddies in cruisers flying with me for extra dps and we start to become a real threat to the logis. They in turn need to concentrate more on us than on their job of repping who has been primaried in their own fleet.
Yeah. Logistics are fun to shoot in the middle of a close range brawl.
When it comes to PvP, I am like a chiwawa hanging from a grizzley bears pair of wrinklies for dear life. |
Mesh Marillion
Fairlight Corp
Rooks and Kings
4
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Posted - 2013.01.07 09:54:00 -
[70] - Quote
Something people should keep in mind, especially when they watch the BR from Notoras is that the game has changed a lot in the last years. Basicly every fleet has long range webs, at least out to 35 (fed navies on a loki without heat/ganglinks) up to 100 k. Webs and painters are the nemesis of a logi, negating its ability to speed/sigtank. At that point with the current powercreep in alpha/dps you get quickly to a point where even our kaboose fit gets tested to its limits and quite often breaks. I do realize that this problem is slightly less prevalent with a lot of shield comps that tend to stay at range anyway. Still, with the higher speed chances are also higher that the fleet spreads out further. You could counter that with anchoring up but that puts the whole requiring more skill argument ad absurdum.
However the op should ask himself why T3 logis never really made their breakthrough. I remember fighting Shadow Cartel about a year or so ago. They had a very nice group of tengu logis that tanked really well. However one web on one logi and the whole group was pinned down. Reps broke cause not everybody reacted in time (which is, in fairness, really difficult once you run a fleet that is larger than a couple of people). Short range reps also ties your whole fleet down to the speed of the slowest ships cause you lose the ability to contract and extend your fleet coverage across the grid.
There are counters against logis, some are more effective, some less. People have experimented with damps, bonussed and unbonussed ecm, ecm drone, neuts and simple alpha. The Notoras fight was really tight for a while cause our cap chains kept dropping. If you see Rokkisys guardian drop rather late in the fight after some dps had already been cleared from the field, this happened exactly because ECM was overwhelming the logi group. Even though we knew he was dying we couldn't muster enough reps to keep him afloat.
While i can understand that fighting against logi supported gangs can be frustrating, they can make up for really interesting tug of wars, even though that has declined in the age of alpha. Still, that frustration can be experienced when fighting against any force using one or more force multipliers. Still there are huge differences how one can apply those factors and the level of experience and efficiency between different logi groups is sometimes staggering. The same applies to the ability of a group to apply damage effectively as well, btw.
Generally the problem with people on the forum making suggestions for buffs and nerfs is that they tend to view the game just from their perspective rather than trying to look at it from different angles. What seems to be unbalanced in solo pvp might be ok in fleet warfare and vice versa and its pretty difficult to alway hit the right spot designwise. However cutting down range on logis by 50 % or more is just going to increase the DPS powercreep that has really started to get rolling with the tier 3 BCs but also with much tighter doctrines being used across eve. |
Doddy
Excidium.
822
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Posted - 2013.01.07 10:09:00 -
[71] - Quote
Kitty Bear wrote:YuuKnow wrote:Tippia wrote:So that they can provide their services to brawles without having to go into brawl range themselves and without having to closely match the manoeuvring and darting about that the DPS ships will occasionally have to engage in. It's a back-row unit; it needs to be able to reach not just the front row of the friendly units, but the front row of the enemy as well.  EDIT: Removal of personal attack quote - ISD Tyrozan Maybe your right. Maybe it wouldn't make a difference at all and everyone would just hug the logi and be stationary. I don't know. I'm just trying to conceptionalize something I've noticed when logis are on the field in the fights I've been in, specifically, that everytime I'm in a fight and a logi or logi group shows up, the fight instantly becomes less interesting and degenerates to either a dull DPS vs rep equation or a rock/paper/scissors. All the interesting tatics go to dust and the fight becomes more boring. Am I wrong? I'm not sure how to place my finger on it, but notice that even in the Alliance Tournament and New Eden Open the number of Logis on the field had to be limited by rule (1 per team) because if they weren't limited, and more logis were involved, the matches would be less interesting and more mudane. CCP knew that. Also notice that almost all of the most interesting solo, or small gang videos out there are logi free engagements? When logi's are involved the fights are boring. My own experience is that the uber rep, resist, and range these things get actually makes the fights dull instead of more interesting IMHO. Not sure if reducing range would make logi-supported engagements more dynamic... so that maneurverability was more of a factor, but maybe not, I'm not sure what would. My 2 isk yk
until dec 4th there used to be a counter to logistic ships, an often disregarded and overlooked counter
the Cerberus had a massive sniping range for a reason, now it really does desperately need that future possible T2 rebalance  [/quote]
Yeah because cerberus range was ever needed to counter logis? Range limitation just turns everything into a face to face slog and is very boring. This applies for dps, tackle, ewar and logi.
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Lukas Flamesword
Hessian Public Relations Department
19
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Posted - 2013.01.07 10:44:00 -
[72] - Quote
CCP. DONT NERF LOGI. we dont need another doomed ship type. like titans. currently they are just a "mobile" jump bridge. dont make carriers ship transporters/ammo refilers (they already do that too often. dont make it the only use) |
Pinaculus
Fweddit
I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth
200
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Posted - 2013.01.07 15:31:00 -
[73] - Quote
OP...I'm sorry. Logistics are going to become more common rather than less. Pre Retribution I could fly a Guardian in PvP if I wanted to run Logi, and that was about it. Often corps would have to buy a player a Logi ship just to get them to fly it (or use some other incentive). Logi pilots had to bring combat drones (not really their role) just to get on killmails, so the player could say they got something out of the evening's play time.
Post Retribution....Wow!
T1 Logi ships are actually useful! All of them! Even the frigates!
I get bounties just for being in fleet and on-grid! Logi is no longer "charity!"
There's enough variety of Logi fits that they can be used in a variety of engagement sizes, from duo to small-gang, to giant fleet slug matches!
So, get used to Logi ships actually being around and start working out ways to counter them. It's going to get far more common.
I know sometimes it's difficult to realize just how much you spend on incidental things each month or year, but seriously, EVE is very cheap entertainment compared to most things... If you are a smoker, smoke one less pack a week and pay for EVE, with money left over to pick up a cheap bundle of flowers for the EVE widow upstairs. |
Aston Martin DB5
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
12
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Posted - 2013.01.07 16:59:00 -
[74] - Quote
slap on a MWD and aggro the ship, problem solved. |
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