suck my logi. suck it

you have matching tattoos with OP. are you in league with OP

do you come bearing logi tears

do you bite your thumb at us, sir?

this is awesome, though, how often do you see logi tears

not enough, imo. it's my favorite role.

AT LAST!

So that they can provide their services to brawles without having to go into brawl range themselves and without having to closely match the manoeuvring and darting about that the DPS ships will occasionally have to engage in.

It's a back-row unit; it needs to be able to reach not just the front row of the friendly units, but the front row of the enemy as well.

How do you think that positioning would matter in the least if the logis had to be facehugging their targets?

Wow Sherlock, no duh ... that's the way CCP create them. The question is, *why* CCP felt that was the best way to created them?

Wow Sherlock, no duh ... that's the way CCP create them. The question is, *why* CCP felt that was the best way to created them? Would there be more interesting ways to employ the 'healer' concept rather than a standoff uber ranged, uber tank?



Maybe your right. Maybe it wouldn't make a difference at all and everyone would just hug the logi and be stationary. I don't know.

I'm just trying to conceptionalize something I've noticed when logis are on the field in the fights I've been in, specifically, that everytime I'm in a fight and a logi or logi group shows up, the fight instantly becomes less interesting and degenerates to either a dull DPS vs rep equation or a rock/paper/scissors. All the interesting tatics go to dust and the fight becomes more boring.

Am I wrong? I'm not sure how to place my finger on it, but notice that even in the Alliance Tournament and New Eden Open the number of Logis on the field had to be limited by rule (1 per team) because if they weren't limited, and more logis were involved, the matches would be less interesting and more mudane. CCP knew that.

Also notice that almost all of the most interesting solo, or small gang videos out there are logi free engagements? When logi's are involved the fights are boring.

My own experience is that the uber rep, resist, and range these things get actually makes the fights dull instead of more interesting IMHO. Not sure if reducing range would make logi-supported engagements more dynamic... so that maneurverability was more of a factor, but maybe not, I'm not sure what would.

My 2 isk

yk

until dec 4th there used to be a counter to logistic ships, an often disregarded and overlooked counter

the Cerberus had a massive sniping range for a reason, now it really does desperately need that future possible T2 rebalance

Maybe because CCP want that people start use mixed ship types on field like mixed short range + snipers fleet, instead of drop 20 blasters or pulse monster armaggedons and kill everyone on range after jump, or while gate camp.

Convention. That's how they always work, most likely because it has been shown way back in the fledgeling boardgame days that touch-range healing was horrible.

Except that they were also given a sig radius so small (half the size of even a strategic cruiser) that most ranged guns have issues hitting them...

... not sure why CCP decided to design that in as well...

yk

what do you think would make it fair, in terms of sig radius. just curious

On a side note. I'm curious to whether anyone watching this video would actually say that it was a cool fight. To me it is an example of the problem of how boring logi fights are.

Wow Sherlock, no duh ... that's the way CCP create them. The question is, *why* CCP felt that was the best way to created them? Would there be more interesting ways to employ the 'healer' concept rather than a standoff uber ranged, uber tank?



Maybe your right. Maybe it wouldn't make a difference at all and everyone would just hug the logi and be stationary. I don't know.

I'm just trying to conceptionalize something I've noticed when logis are on the field in the fights I've been in, specifically, that everytime I'm in a fight and a logi or logi group shows up, the fight instantly becomes less interesting and degenerates to either a dull DPS vs rep equation or a rock/paper/scissors. All the interesting tatics go to dust and the fight becomes more boring.

Am I wrong? I'm not sure how to place my finger on it, but notice that even in the Alliance Tournament and New Eden Open the number of Logis on the field had to be limited by rule (1 per team) because if they weren't limited, and more logis were involved, the matches would be less interesting and more mudane. CCP knew that.

Also notice that almost all of the most interesting solo, or small gang videos out there are logi free engagements? When logi's are involved the fights are boring.

My own experience is that the uber rep, resist, and range these things get actually makes the fights dull instead of more interesting IMHO. Not sure if reducing range would make logi-supported engagements more dynamic... so that maneurverability was more of a factor, but maybe not, I'm not sure what would.

My 2 isk

yk

Healer? GTFO to WoW and ball up

Oh, boardgame conviention. That explains it... because board games *always* makes the most awesome internet spaceship games. Its so obvious.

Logi on the field? Get on that **** with damps, ECM and have something burn out to them to web then **** out of them so you can dispose of them.

Except that they were also given a sig radius so small (half the size of even a strategic cruiser) that most ranged guns have issues hitting them...

... not sure why CCP decided to design that in as well...

yk

Primary is another name for this right ?

I'm just trying to conceptionalize something I've noticed when logis are on the field in the fights I've been in, specifically, that everytime I'm in a fight and a logi or logi group shows up, the fight instantly becomes less interesting and degenerates to either a dull DPS vs rep equation or a rock/paper/scissors. All the interesting tatics go to dust and the fight becomes more boring.

Am I wrong?

I'm thinking that they should have the same sig radius of any other cruiser. That would be fair wouldn't it?

On a side note. I'm curious to whether anyone watching this video would actually say that it was a cool fight. To me it is an example of the problem of how boring logi fights are.

yk

Call me a whiner, and at the expected protest of the logi's, but why did CCP grant such an excessive rep range to all the logistic ships in the game? Seems like it makes maneuvering and mobility less of a factor and encourages more of a boring rock/paper/scissors game.

yk

Remote Sensor Damps. Problem solved. Moving on...

What's to stop them from dampening you first.

Does it make sense that a logistics CRUISER can heal for full effect at maximum range, often outside the effective combat range of the opposing force, never missing, no optimal/falloff/tracking to deal with?

And, does it really even make sense that there is a ship next to the ship that you're destroying that is repairing it faster than you can destroy it.

Call me a whiner

ok, but their signature radius is, give or take 15%, the same as their T1 counterpart. so you think they should have a sig radius penalty? you still haven't thrown out a solid number..

and as for your original topic: in your opinion, what range bonus would make it fair?

I'm trying to assemble the fair logi cruiser you have in mind. help me out

What's to stop them from dampening you first. In all likelihood, the logistics ship is the one with the locking range advantage. Even in battleship fleets, if the logistics ship is behind the front line, there is that much more distance that you have to cover before you can even lock and dampen them, i.e. walk your ewar right into the meatgrinder in the hopes of dampening 1 or 2 logis for the few seconds you have before they are primed.

Does it make sense that a logistics CRUISER can heal for full effect at maximum range, often outside the effective combat range of the opposing force, never missing, no optimal/falloff/tracking to deal with? Isn't the balance supposed to be that cruisers, although fast, are thinner skinned with limited range, capacitor, and fitting resources? Doesn't a cruiser that heals and tanks far outside it's weight class break that balance?

Imagine a ship that had a 1000% bonus to it's weapons range (autocannons, for example). Imagine a ship that equipped weapons and/or modules of a larger class, Tier 3 battlecruisers and stealth bombers come to mind. But, also imagine something like a Myrmidon with a large armor repairer or a Rokh with a capital class shield booster.

And, does it really even make sense that there is a ship next to the ship that you're destroying that is repairing it faster than you can destroy it. Isn't that kind of like machine gunning someone, only to have a medic standing next to him repairing his bodily tissue faster than your killing machine could damage it? Or a tornado blowing a house down, but losing the race to a construction team who were patching it up? It's almost as if "logistics" ships are . . . magical fairies casting spells of healing.

Yeah, that's the current 'meta'. It boils down to a rock/paper/scissors.

Logi beats DPS
EWAR beats Logi
DPS beats EWAR

but in the end it becomes predictable and uninteresting.

The other guys would probably say it was a cool fight. It also shows the true problem you seam to have with logis. You can't just "Guys, if ya have time, shoot se Harbinger", you should probably switch all at the same time to take them down with an alpha strike before the logi pilot can switch the rep. Well in this case there was not enough dmg available anyway to brake their armor buffers. A good FC would have noticed that.

Probably because they won.

Logis are good in that it allows for smaller gangs to be able to engage larger gangs which is good. But they're are other ways of fighting outnumbered too. All I'm saying is that logi free engagements are more interesting because when logis are involved its becomes a simple DPS vs RepRate from what I've experienced. Compare the perma-rep/Logi engagements above with a logi-free engagement of Kil2's or one of Duncan Tanner's engagements here with anti-logi tatics here.

yk

Compare the perma-rep/Logi engagements above with a logi-free engagement of Kil2's or one of Duncan Tanner's engagements here with anti-logi tatics here.

yk

[Maybe an optimal range and falloff penalty to reps are in order. CCP should consider it.

Call me a whiner, and at the expected protest of the logi's, but why did CCP grant such an excessive rep range to all the logistic ships in the game? Seems like it makes maneuvering and mobility less of a factor and encourages more of a boring rock/paper/scissors game.

yk

I'm thinking sig radius for both T1 and T2 Logis should be about 120m. Range bonus 500% (instead of 1000%) for T1 and only at 100% range bonus for T2.

yk

Primary is another name for this right ?

What for?

To make logi fights more variable and dynamic.

Yes, they are indeed interesting, i love Kil2's videos. But he does solo PvP, he would probably never engage a group that has logi ships no matter what the rep range is. He has very clever positioning and separation tactics and many things more that is just awesome. But EVE PvP is diverse and not only solo PvP makes for interesting fights. The Rooks and Kings videos are a good example. The triage carrier is the ultimate logi ship. The fight is totally different and the skills involved are totally different than what kil2 does, but they are still interesting. Maybe not in your eyes.

If you don't like fights with logis in fleet then don't engage in those fights. What you can't do is come in here and demand a nerf to logi ships just because you only like fast "we just kick each others shins"-fights. There are other people that play EVE BECAUSE its has that diverse PvP possibilities.

...but the fight itself (watch it with the sound off) IMHO shows the problem. All the *major* players involved were fairly stationary and the end equation just like all other logi fights boiled down to dps vs rep.

Whatever tweak that will not have a real effect on large fleet warfare, while making small group more interesting.

Not really, no. People would just stay closer and it would end up being a straight nerf for no good reason.

It's trying to solve a problem that doesn't even exist.

Their are no 'problems' in video games. Just game mechanics. The *challenge* is to make fights as intersting and dynamic as possible.

Again just look at ATX and New Eden Open to see how logi ships had to be restricted in order to protect the matches from the boredom which is the current logistics mechanics.

...but the fight itself (watch it with the sound off) IMHO shows the problem. All the *major* players involved were fairly stationary and the end equation just like all other logi fights boiled down to dps vs rep. Notice how at the end when the fight was "won" it was actually still going because R&K had won the dps vs rep equation? Lord Malfador states it plainly that Agent's rep is now unbeateable and the battle is now determined.

Call me a whiner, and at the expected protest of the logi's, but why did CCP grant such an excessive rep range to all the logistic ships in the game? Seems like it makes maneuvering and mobility less of a factor and encourages more of a boring rock/paper/scissors game.

yk

[quote=Moonaura]Imagine a ship that had a 1000% bonus to it's weapons range (autocannons, for example). Imagine a ship that equipped weapons and/or modules of a larger class, Tier 3 battlecruisers and stealth bombers come to mind. But, also imagine something like a Myrmidon with a large armor repairer or a Rokh with a capital class shield booster.

All destroyers get +50% range to their weapons. Numerous ships get massive bonuses to missile range. Also: Oracle, Naga, Talos and Tornado. Look 'em up.

Maybe your right. Maybe it wouldn't make a difference at all and everyone would just hug the logi and be stationary. I don't know.

I'm just trying to conceptionalize something I've noticed when logis are on the field in the fights I've been in, specifically, that everytime I'm in a fight and a logi or logi group shows up, the fight instantly becomes less interesting and degenerates to either a dull DPS vs rep equation or a rock/paper/scissors. All the interesting tatics go to dust and the fight becomes more boring.

Am I wrong? I'm not sure how to place my finger on it, but notice that even in the Alliance Tournament and New Eden Open the number of Logis on the field had to be limited by rule (1 per team) because if they weren't limited, and more logis were involved, the matches would be less interesting and more mudane. CCP knew that.

Also notice that almost all of the most interesting solo, or small gang videos out there are logi free engagements? When logi's are involved the fights are boring.

My own experience is that the uber rep, resist, and range these things get actually makes the fights dull instead of more interesting IMHO. Not sure if reducing range would make logi-supported engagements more dynamic... so that maneurverability was more of a factor, but maybe not, I'm not sure what would.

My 2 isk

yk