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DrunkenOne
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Posted - 2005.06.22 05:25:00 -
[61]
 Originally by: Maxine Stirner
AFs, and frigates in general, are not meant to be tanked, that is just wrong! Damage and tracking mods ftw!
I've got the no-sig blues. |
ELECTR0FREAK
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Posted - 2005.06.22 05:53:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Maxine Stirner
A gank setup on an AF is pretty fun. Inties come within ~20km and go BOOM!
However, the main problem I find is that cruisers and battleships are equally good at pwning AFs (and inties). Cruisers and HACs pwning AFs handilly I accept happily, but BS should not have such an annoyingly easy job of it. Sig-based missile dps nerf alone isn't quite enough.
Tech1 frigs and AFs should have more survivability vs. BS - and tech1 frigs should do more damage than inties, but inties should be more evasive and have better tackling and prey catching abilities. I want tech1 frigs to become more popular and more useful because I want to shoot at them, and I want more people to be flying in cruisers so they can shoot at me in an entertaining way.
AFs, and frigates in general, are not meant to be tanked, that is just wrong! Damage and tracking mods ftw!
So wait, you're saying that AFs NOT fitted for tanking should be able to survive versus BS? 
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Kyle Caldrel
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Posted - 2005.06.22 06:05:00 -
[63]
I seen drunks setup assasinate intys also.
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Maxine Stirner
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Posted - 2005.06.22 08:08:00 -
[64]
Originally by: ELECTR0FREAK
So wait, you're saying that AFs NOT fitted for tanking should be able to survive versus BS?
Depends on how badly the BS pilot is willing to gimp that lumbering beast against other battleships and HACs.
I'm saying tech1 frigates should be able to survive against (evade) 1 ungimped BS indefinitely.
1 AF ought to be able be able to kill a completely untanked (no reps) BS after 10 to 15 minutes, provided they don't 1)get help, 2)started logging 16-21 minutes earlier, 3)be already damaged, 4)nos/web and jump to safety. 1.5-2 pounder fitted AFs ought to be able to slowly strip a lightly tanked BS to nothing. 2.5 AFs ought to be able to very slowly strip a heavy tanked BS to nothing but with plenty of time for reinforcements to arrive.
BS should be able to last a long, long time against frigates, but their immunity to them should not be guaranteed by both their rapid-kill-anything weapons AND cap charge + repair efficiency. All ships are disposable or no ships are disposable. Large turrets, even with target painters and/or web should still suck really bad against Frigates. Cruisers are the ideal frig slaughtering machines. A torp on frigate-sig dps nerf isn't going to be enough to rehabillitate both frigates and cruisers to reestablish the necessity of their presence on the battlefield. The chain must be reestablished. Order must be restored in the universe.
Locking Times & Evil Asteroids |
ELECTR0FREAK
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Posted - 2005.06.22 08:38:00 -
[65]
Hey, I'm all for restoring order to the universe too, but I don't think a battleship should have NO chance of killing an AF. Assault Ships have their purpose, killing frigs and interceptors. And while they should be able to avoid most fire by a BS, they shouldn't be immune.
When it comes down to it, the BS pilot spent more on his ship than the Assault Ship pilot. The Assault Ship should be able to get away from the BS without getting instapwned, but it shouldn't be able to spend all day flying circles around it. If it weren't for Heavy Nosferatus, that is exactly where frigs would be today. Completely invulnerable to the largest ships in the game.
Assault Ships are already getting a nice survivability boost with the missile patch in that they won't be torp bait, but they don't need to be made invincible.
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LUKEC
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Posted - 2005.06.22 12:00:00 -
[66]
Edited by: LUKEC on 22/06/2005 12:05:41
Teh evil claw setup:
hi: 150mm acs II, rocket launcher
med: web, mwd probably
low: 400mm tungsten plate, passive kin. membrane t2 + whatever you need to fit above
With the beautiful minmater base resistances you have:
80% to em, 10%expl, 53%kin, 35% th resist and ~1100 armor.
Why this thing works so well:
claw has 40pg & 4 low slots. 150mm acs t2 need: 2PG 6cpu.
So you need 7PG for hi slots. And another 18 for med slots IF you put on MWD t2. That leaves you with 25 pg left. Add mapc(+12.5pg) and you can fit plate(30pg, ~19cpu), membrane(2pg, 30cpu) and still have ~5pg left. (maybe add another plate or regenerative t2 membrane )
Why this works so f00kin well:
150mm ac is superior to gatling pulse t2 in just everything.
4km falloff and 500m optimal >>> 6700optimal and 500m fallof
All you need is to put in EMP and hit for more dmg at 3km than laser with uv
Normalized dmg is a bit higher.
Tracking is far better(0.35 vs 0.28), basicly as good as blasters.
No cap for guns
Dmg types really hurt. No problem to pwn enyo with emp or fusion(or whatever expl. + th ammo is). But it takes ages to kill armor with lasers.
I'm tempted to put these guns on crusader.
Now go figure.
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slip66
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Posted - 2005.06.22 12:23:00 -
[67]
Originally by: Bazman
Assault Frigs are generally quite good, but they really need to have their mass unnerfed so that they can hit maybe 1800m/s to 2000m/s with MWD's. They are just too slow to be truely effective, all you'll ever catch with them solo are cruisers or maybe other AF's
no you just want a uber tackler & dmg dealer that can tank :P The overall lack of speed keeps its role defined.
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Alex Harumichi
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Posted - 2005.06.22 13:06:00 -
[68]
Originally by: LUKEC
Edited by: LUKEC on 22/06/2005 12:05:41
Teh evil claw setup:
hi: 150mm acs II, rocket launcher
med: web, mwd probably
low: 400mm tungsten plate, passive kin. membrane t2 + whatever you need to fit above
Yup, you can also do something like this with the Ares and blasters (though the Claw is superior in most respects). Still, people tend to think the Ares sucks and it's always nice to give them a surprise.
...oh, it does suck, but "sucks" != "totally useless" ;)
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Eyeshadow
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Posted - 2005.06.22 13:34:00 -
[69]
i would guess a 3 mid slot interceptor running a tracking disruptor and staying out of web range could own an arty/rail fitted AF. Of course u would need to use the correct dmg too but i can imagine its totally doable. Ive fought a kestrel in a rail ranis and i couldnt touch him cos he had a tracking disruptor on and i couldnt hit
Forums: Sharks - MC |
Bazman
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Posted - 2005.06.22 13:36:00 -
[70]
Originally by: slip66
Originally by: Bazman
Assault Frigs are generally quite good, but they really need to have their mass unnerfed so that they can hit maybe 1800m/s to 2000m/s with MWD's. They are just too slow to be truely effective, all you'll ever catch with them solo are cruisers or maybe other AF's
no you just want a uber tackler & dmg dealer that can tank :P The overall lack of speed keeps its role defined.
My bad, i should have specified Gallente Assaults :P You see, i have weakness for blasters, i love them, and i've experimented with them on the Gallente assaults to no avail, no matter what you do, you just can't get them to work. It pains me :P (ishkurs sort of work with blasters, sort of...)
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Spuki
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Posted - 2005.06.22 15:04:00 -
[71]
Edited by: Spuki on 22/06/2005 15:06:03
Originally by: Eyeshadow
i would guess a 3 mid slot interceptor running a tracking disruptor and staying out of web range could own an arty/rail fitted AF. Of course u would need to use the correct dmg too but i can imagine its totally doable. Ive fought a kestrel in a rail ranis and i couldnt touch him cos he had a tracking disruptor on and i couldnt hit
Guess you will have big troubles with your cap when running mwd, scrambler, weapons and the disruptor. Maybe a crow with lots of CPR in the low slots could achieve this.
On the other hand, it may be better to turn mwd off anyway ...
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Eyeshadow
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Posted - 2005.06.22 15:13:00 -
[72]
Actually ive just found out his setup, thanks to someone else  . Very clever, but it is a setup that wont do much else other than kill other frigs (AF/ceptors etc) and even then it takes patience and a bit of luck
Forums: Sharks - MC |
DrunkenOne
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Posted - 2005.06.22 15:18:00 -
[73]
Edited by: DrunkenOne on 22/06/2005 15:26:09
Originally by: LUKEC
Edited by: LUKEC on 22/06/2005 12:05:41
Teh evil claw setup:
hi: 150mm acs II, rocket launcher
med: web, mwd probably
low: 400mm tungsten plate, passive kin. membrane t2 + whatever you need to fit above
With the beautiful minmater base resistances you have:
80% to em, 10%expl, 53%kin, 35% th resist and ~1100 armor.
Why this thing works so well:
claw has 40pg & 4 low slots. 150mm acs t2 need: 2PG 6cpu.
So you need 7PG for hi slots. And another 18 for med slots IF you put on MWD t2. That leaves you with 25 pg left. Add mapc(+12.5pg) and you can fit plate(30pg, ~19cpu), membrane(2pg, 30cpu) and still have ~5pg left. (maybe add another plate or regenerative t2 membrane )
Thats the standard 150/plate setup that maya made popular. Well, not popular, but you know what I mean. Cept for the kinetic membrane, which I don't think you can fit do to cpu AND grid. But no thats not what I use.
Originally by: Eyeshadow
Actually ive just found out his setup, thanks to someone else . Very clever, but it is a setup that wont do much else other than kill other frigs (AF/ceptors etc) and even then it takes patience and a bit of luck
Noooooooooooooooo h4x  . And I've already said several times that it is a solo hunting setup.
I've got the no-sig blues. |
Spuki
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Posted - 2005.06.22 15:42:00 -
[74]
The only things that stops me from creating a "OMG nerv the claw" thread is the lack of a third med slot. This leaves a claw pretty much useles in a fleet and makes it a toy for solo gankers or in frig fleets.
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Maxine Stirner
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Posted - 2005.06.22 17:30:00 -
[75]
Originally by: ELECTR0FREAK
When it comes down to it, the BS pilot spent more on his ship than the Assault Ship pilot.
You really do not want to go with this arguement. Really.
A torp costs, what 600 isk? A tech1 frigate costs, let's see.. 1000x times that amount for the most basic setup. You only need 4-5 of them before the dps change.
A drone costs, 80k? x10 is 800k. An AF costs.. hmm well you know, if you give AF it's niche, then people are going to be fitting 50M individual mods on them, or more. The difference in cost of a BS to AF is about 10x. The difference of basic piloting skills is about par. The fitting skills on AF are steeper. The organizational reqs of piloting an AF are currently more severe. The BS is a casual ship currently, and it is STUPID to expect that it should remain in repose without remotely adjusting its setup to handle something technically outside its niche without breaking a sweat even when it is flying solo.
Don't give us the frigate swarm bs line, or the "oh my friend mr.stupendous blah," because outnumbering someone is irrelevant. You will always win (eventually) if you vastly outnumber a lone person so it is not important to design thinking.
Do you think that only dreads should be able to tackle or defeat dreads? Or will I need a dread gang in order to defeat lone dreads? Do we always have to count on their being a stupid lone person in order to actually see steady mixed combat?
Not everyone agrees that HP on BS should be increased while tanking efficiency should decrease. That at least is a valid view with concrete reasons backing it up. Not unsolvable reasons, but still. The idea that the BS should be the only piloting objective out there, and the only thing worth spending much dosh on is both pigheaded and imbecilic. We are playing a game here. The point of the game is not to round off your corners for you so you can get back to the grind.. it is to invoke strategy and for player interaction to be aesthetically pleasing. Mixed fleets are the culmination of strategy.
If everyone was supposed to fly a BS, there would be really crappy BS that handled exactly the same way but didn't work for ****. And only level 70 paladin BS flyers would goosestep around in invulnerable formation when they were going to invulnerable mode while they answer the phone.
There is a perfectly exceptional response for dealing with the presence of AFs who could, might pose a threat to foolish BS even though that is not their main objective, which is killing inties and frigs efficiently when untanked -- that answer is Cruisers. They were created for a reason.. it's not that hard to figure out.
Locking Times & Evil Asteroids |
Maxine Stirner
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Posted - 2005.06.22 17:44:00 -
[76]
Being able to fly a frigate or cruiser or battleship well, in it's own niche on the battlefield adds that individualistic touch that is so important to fleet or gang action. Simply flying a BS that can hit or scare off anything but another BS or HAC when solo is frankly boring at the very least.
In current fleet tactics, nothing counts more than coherency of following a single order, and picking targets to vaporize in the proper order while some EW support gets to have a bit of semi-random tactical fun.
Fleets and gangs tend not to even collide. Dullsville.
When you have ship class mechanics that encourage the formation of mixed fleets, and specialization paths that encourge elite individual combat role preference, then situations automatically arise where more decisions can be left to the individual or a squad within a larger gang or fleet. It is the mixture of coherent and individual choices which makes the mixed fleet mechanics such a valuable strategy enhancement to the battlefield.
I don't know how to make anyone understand or convince anyone of this beyond what I've said. I guess you just have to come to it on your own.
Locking Times & Evil Asteroids |
Weirda
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Posted - 2005.06.22 17:55:00 -
[77]
Finally you post something Weirda agree with Maxine!
Good job, doubt many will take time to read it - and will instead flame a single out of context point. You have expressed Weirda's goals of what 'mixed' means... just really looking more for 'mixed space' (not just mixed fleet or gang).
--
Thread Killer
<END TRANSMISSIO |
Altai Saker
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Posted - 2005.06.22 18:20:00 -
[78]
Assualt frigs are awful outside of point defense in fleet fights tbh, I wont fly one :/
and tbh, none of you know drunks setup except probably eyeshadow(I didnt tell him)so tbh, I would act a little more reserved when you see someone post those kinds of kills from an interceptor. Maybe show some respect?
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Bruchpilot
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Posted - 2005.06.22 18:46:00 -
[79]
Well, I know his setup and I guess there are so many ppl in [5] flying with it that it won't be "secret" after 1-2 weeks. It's very specialised, too like an AF w/longrange guns so I miss your point here DrunkenOne. I still prefer Maya's setup since it's much more flexible. (our 2vs2 was a situation where it's more usefull)
But tbh: I didn't fly Intys much till I figured out how powerfull the Claw is. It makes AFs... pointless... And it's much more fun.
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Moridan
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Posted - 2005.06.22 19:18:00 -
[80]
Just don't warp into 50k from a munin in one ;)
"Speak quietly and carry a big torpedo."
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Maxine Stirner
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Posted - 2005.06.22 19:24:00 -
[81]
I want to apologize to ELECTROFREAK for my earlier post. He's actually a pretty standup guy in min chat and didn't deserve that outburst. The mean labels aren't directed at him, or I don't think they were meant to be but at people in general.
It's just something about this issue and general apathy to it that just makes me see red.
I'll be good, I promise.
Locking Times & Evil Asteroids |
DrunkenOne
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Posted - 2005.06.22 19:45:00 -
[82]
Edited by: DrunkenOne on 22/06/2005 19:46:18
Originally by: Bruchpilot
Well, I know his setup and I guess there are so many ppl in [5] flying with it that it won't be "secret" after 1-2 weeks. It's very specialised, too like an AF w/longrange guns so I miss your point here DrunkenOne. I still prefer Maya's setup since it's much more flexible. (our 2vs2 was a situation where it's more usefull)
But tbh: I didn't fly Intys much till I figured out how powerfull the Claw is. It makes AFs... pointless... And it's much more fun.
Yeah that one fight we had showed the weakness as you had mayas setup so i couldnt run over to engage you because you were too far away and had to engage the enyo first, and lost when you came back.
But yeah I'm sure a lot of celes pilots know the setup now since theres at least 7 or 8 [5] pilots using the setup on crusaders and claws, and you guys have lost a lot of harpies lately. And I'm glad you agree with me that claws make assaults useless 
I've got the no-sig blues. |
DrunkenOne
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Posted - 2005.06.22 20:05:00 -
[83]
Edited by: DrunkenOne on 22/06/2005 20:05:36
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=193151&page=1
Enjoy.
I've got the no-sig blues. |
Meridius
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Posted - 2005.06.22 20:07:00 -
[84]
Originally by: DrunkenOne
Edited by: DrunkenOne on 22/06/2005 20:05:36
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=193151&page=1
Enjoy.
Don't think your setup will work post patch drunk & maya
nerfed are you
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DrunkenOne
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Posted - 2005.06.22 20:11:00 -
[85]
Originally by: Meridius
Originally by: DrunkenOne
Edited by: DrunkenOne on 22/06/2005 20:05:36
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=193151&page=1
Enjoy.
Don't think your setup will work post patch drunk & maya
nerfed are you
Dont see how that applies as i dont have anything offline.
It wont fit cause of rocket launcher increases.
I've got the no-sig blues. |
Meridius
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Posted - 2005.06.22 20:21:00 -
[86]
Originally by: DrunkenOne
Originally by: Meridius
Originally by: DrunkenOne
Edited by: DrunkenOne on 22/06/2005 20:05:36
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=193151&page=1
Enjoy.
Don't think your setup will work post patch drunk & maya
nerfed are you
Dont see how that applies as i dont have anything offline.
It wont fit cause of rocket launcher increases.
Well i wasn't sure
Quote:
However, the reason it has returned in another form is that it is our only constraint that prevents oversized modules from being fitted. And there are modules that we do not want fitted if your ship should not allow it.
Thats what i thought would nerf it...
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babo
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Posted - 2005.06.22 20:55:00 -
[87]
In defense of AF's, you should poke around killboards and see the kills done with AF's
For people saying they are killed a lot, they are often killed because of their roles in fleet, interceptors are blown up a lot too..
However, you will notice a lot of enyo + intys (taranis usually) combo's killing battleships and BC's and with the new changes to bubbles small gank squads can do even better..
For small squads in anti small ship roles, the ishkur is great, stops and tears up lots of little ships fast.....
For PVE, mission runners love the enyo as you can easily burn through a ton of missions fast in an enyo.. i.e. about three times as many as if you were doing them in a battleship...
AF's are not 'the' uber ship and need to be set up right, but they will serve you well in pvp.
does your ship have a dronebay? If so, sign the petition.. |
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