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Loot and Ore thieves

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Aalekzander Sevvari	Posted - 2005.06.24 19:43:00 - [121] Quote: Sorry if I derailed things, but regardless of the players postion to the can, if he used secure cans the ore would not be stolen whether he was at the can or not. Ever done the math? A secure can feels up far too fast (4-5 minutes) and generally it would be more efficient to mine, leave in station, mine, leave in station than it would be to use 15-20 secure cans that already have a tiny capacity.
Ryctor	Posted - 2005.06.24 20:13:00 - [122] sighs I go away for a week or so and this stuff pops up again. Lets get some of the more simpler things knocked out first. 1) Why are jet cans so big? No one really knows the answer to this question, save for the coders. I'll venture a guess as to why though. Most programers are lazy, and I doubt CCPs are any exception. Why waste the time coding a jet can size for each ship when you can just make one big ass one? Not only does this save time to work on other things, it also doesnt add useless code in the servers. Now CCP has given the miners something to use, they are called Giant Secure cans. Again people get hung up on the "giant" part, saying that its not "giant" enough and again CCPs say it is so you will just have to make due with what you got. Remember kids, the most secure "can" you can use is your hold. Honestly I dont really know...its just a guess. 2) Theft, Stealing!?!? S Spot, Mi and the others always fall back on the literal meaning of this when their "arguements" fail. So theft is "The act or an instance of stealing; larceny" and stealing is "To take (the property of another) without right or permission." Those are the literal meanings as provided by dictionary.com. Now EvE-Online is a game, not the real world. In it CCP is God, President, whatever you want to call it, they are the BOSS. As such they (CCP) get to decide what will be punishable by flagging and what will not. They (CCP) have stated time and time again that uppon jettisoning the whatever, YOU FORFIT YOUR RIGHTS AS OWNER OF SAID whatever. Since you have no ownership rights over the whatver you jettisoned, you do not own it when it is "stolen". 3) Where is the risk? So ore thieves have no risk eh? As a Mineral Relocation Expert, I've been podded by miners in the last 2 weeks. Had countless Iteron MK5s blown out from under me. I risk my setup each time I go out. Do I want to fit for hauling cap, or do I fit for the possibility of some angry miner in a raven podding me again. Stalked and announced when I've entered systems. Countless petitiones for "harrassment". Denied the right to buy things from some corporations because of my choosen profession AND had GHSC declared war apon (though they dont really mind). To say that ore theft has no risk, is to talk out of your ass. Just because you refuse to see them as risk, doesnt make them not risks. Now I'm not complaining about these risks. I accept them as part of my job. 4)Conclusion. Remember its just a game. CCPs game in fact. As such they get the finally decision on this issue. If they decide to flag jet cans then fine. More miners will suffer from that system than under the current. If they decide to not fix that which is not broken than fine. I'll be "stealing" either way.
Ryctor	Posted - 2005.06.24 20:16:00 - [123] Edited by: Ryctor on 24/06/2005 20:16:19 Originally by: Aalekzander Sevvari Quote: Sorry if I derailed things, but regardless of the players postion to the can, if he used secure cans the ore would not be stolen whether he was at the can or not. Ever done the math? A secure can feels up far too fast (4-5 minutes) and generally it would be more efficient to mine, leave in station, mine, leave in station than it would be to use 15-20 secure cans that already have a tiny capacity. I dont remember where CCP has stated that its your god given right to mine as "efficiently" as possible. Might you be able to link me to this??
Aalekzander Sevvari	Posted - 2005.06.24 20:26:00 - [124] Quote: I dont remember where CCP has stated that its your god given right to mine as "efficiently" as possible. Might you be able to link me to this?? So you want to gimp the defensive capability of miners but not of any other profession. I have an idea. Let's take CONCORD out of .5 to 1.0 so that if a "ganker" tries and kills your afk (went to the bathroom) NPC runner, you get blown up without reprecussions. What you are asking is to gimp a proffession because you don't agree nor participate in it, when you won't try and apply a similar instance to your own proffession. Give miners who are sitting RIGHT beside their cans the ability to defend themselves. Just like you give us NPC RUNNERS the ability to know CONCORD will run in on any hostile (and not even lethal, ie attacking cargo cans) situation within empire, every other proffessions deserves similar legal protections.
Ryctor	Posted - 2005.06.24 20:29:00 - [125] Originally by: Aalekzander Sevvari Give miners who are sitting RIGHT beside their cans the ability to defend themselves. Just like you give us NPC RUNNERS the ability to know CONCORD will run in on any hostile (and not even lethal, ie attacking cargo cans) situation within empire, every other proffessions deserves similar legal protections. They already have this so called "right". They just have to lose their ship trying to enforce it.
MooKids	Posted - 2005.06.24 20:35:00 - [126] Originally by: Aalekzander Sevvari So you want to gimp the defensive capability of miners but not of any other profession. They have enough defenses, most people just choose to ignore them. We give them more, the miners will more than likely ignore them as well. -------------------------------- CCP can patch away bugs, but they can't patch away stupidity.
Aalekzander Sevvari	Posted - 2005.06.24 20:42:00 - [127] Quote: They have enough defenses, most people just choose to ignore them. Honest question, not a troll, since I'm not a miner. What other defences besides a tiny secure container and having concord take out their defensive mining ship
MooKids	Posted - 2005.06.24 20:46:00 - [128] Common sense. The miner can go to a lower sec system, not even .4 and below. Mine with a friend, mine in a quiet system, use a mining barge (the thing is an awesome miner and hauler into one!). Other ways a miner can protect themselves that I can't think of at the moment, just takes common sense. -------------------------------- CCP can patch away bugs, but they can't patch away stupidity.
Ranger 1	Posted - 2005.06.24 21:30:00 - [129] Ore thieves are one of the very few things that encourage miners to venture away from the core systems... and they are your only real element of risk. Like it or not, CCP has not taken further steps against ore thieves for those very reasons. Nor should they. That's not a moon... that's my POS
Sergeant Spot	Posted - 2005.06.24 22:57:00 - [130] Originally by: Avon Originally by: Sergeant Spot While some fools continue to be dense, bottom line remains: Ore "theft" IS "theft". Ore "theft" is not a Concord Response crime. Any fools who doubt that should continue re-reading the CCP FAQ item on the subject until they manage to read the whole documant and NOT just the parts that they like. Fixed your post in line with the FAQ Not sure what you mean. My position on the nature of ore theft has never changed, not even if you go back to my first days in Eve. My position on what I'd like to see happen to ore thieves changes on an almost daily basis, but thats a seperate issue. But for the longest time you have been arguing that there is no actual "theft" happening. I remember a recent one where you even went so far as to claim that because CCP put words like "theft" in quotes, it meant they were implying that it was not theft. Not that I'm worried about consistancy. Make me a good argument, and watch me adjust my position (or at least give it some thought.....)

MooKids	Posted - 2005.06.24 23:35:00 - [131] Originally by: Sergeant Spot But for the longest time you have been arguing that there is no actual "theft" happening. I remember a recent one where you even went so far as to claim that because CCP put words like "theft" in quotes, it meant they were implying that it was not theft. THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT IT MEANS! Putting it in quotes give the word an IRONIC meaning. -------------------------------- CCP can patch away bugs, but they can't patch away stupidity.
Sergeant Spot	Posted - 2005.06.25 02:34:00 - [132] Edited by: Sergeant Spot on 25/06/2005 02:36:11 Originally by: MooKids Originally by: Sergeant Spot But for the longest time you have been arguing that there is no actual "theft" happening. I remember a recent one where you even went so far as to claim that because CCP put words like "theft" in quotes, it meant they were implying that it was not theft. THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT IT MEANS! Putting it in quotes give the word an IRONIC meaning. Good Now explain why CCP says that ore thieves have a reduced sense of right and wrong. There are no quotes on that. Remember, my position is, and has always been, for months on end, that ore theft IS theft, just not a Concord activation crime. Its the folks who insist that no theft is actually occuring that I'm arguing with (and there are a number of such selective readers on these forums....)
Avon	Posted - 2005.06.25 12:44:00 - [133] A reduced sense is not the same as no sense. If you steped out in front of a car would you rather it reduced its speed, or stopped? The whole 'reduced' arguement is meaningless - I very much doubt my sense of right and wrong is the same as yours, and I am sure there are people with a more black and white view than you. ______________________________________________ Pay or pray..er..prey..yeah, pray you aren't prey. Er, just pay.
Bhaal	Posted - 2005.06.26 01:37:00 - [134] I see Avon is on the warpath to protect ore thieves again... God damn, give it a rest... Always protecting the 'sploiters, to the bitter end... ------------------------------------------------ "for piece sakes!"
MooKids	Posted - 2005.06.26 01:56:00 - [135] Originally by: Bhaal Always protecting the 'sploiters, to the bitter end... Do we really need to get into that argument again? -------------------------------- CCP can patch away bugs, but they can't patch away stupidity.
Ryctor	Posted - 2005.06.26 02:46:00 - [136] Edited by: Ryctor on 26/06/2005 02:46:15 Originally by: Bhaal I see Avon is on the warpath to protect ore thieves again... God damn, give it a rest... Always protecting the 'sploiters, to the bitter end... Ladies and Gents. Please do not reply to Bhaal aka Whitedwarf. He is a militant carebear troll who's had his veldspar stolen one to many times. Remember kids, when you feed the trolls you are hanging out with BinLaden.
Yard Ape	Posted - 2005.06.26 03:02:00 - [137] It's pretty simple really... Jet can.... secure can....jet can.....secure can.... Which to choose...hmmmmm
Bryndal	Posted - 2005.06.26 03:28:00 - [138] Jet can mining was an exploit. No arguements from me about that, the devs noticed that other players started ore theft. This balanced the problem and saved the devs from having to fix the exploit themselves. Thats all fine as far as Im concerned, after all i think that the amount of ore that gets stolen is tiny compared to what people are mining and there are plenty of things a miner can do that DONT involve secure cans and minimize your losses. As far as defining theft goes though, you want to compare it to real life? I think this is prolly the most similar comparison. A builder, goes out onto a job(not on his property) and takes his truck full of tools and gear(jet can and mining ship). While hes working someone comes along and takes some tools or materials from his truck, or in some cases even his truck :) But really all this ore theft is like RL has absoluty nothing to do with eve since eve isnt even remotly RL is it?
fghr	Posted - 2005.06.26 08:53:00 - [139] Originally by: TEALEAF when are ccp gonna do something about thieves. i cant count the ammount of times ive had mision critical loot or ore stolen whilst mining. this is ruining peoples hard work and enjoyment of the game.does anyone have any non flame suggestions what is the best way to deal with this. thanks.TEALEAF. why dont you read the eula !! if you trow away your ore then your not that smart.And i dont feal sorry for you as a miner you aint got many problems in the world of eve so god forbid someone collect what you trow away etc etc
TEALEAF	Posted - 2005.06.26 20:19:00 - [140] Originally by: NanoRunner Man this irritates me to no end. Look you got a choice. a) use secure cans. b) dont and just use jet cans and risk being stolen from while increasing the benifit of trying to pull largert loads. Stop whining about perfectly fine aspects of the game. der....loot thieves loot thieves loot thieves...there ive said it 3 more times and a forth. mision critical loot being stolen from blockade misions etc needs to be stopped now.

Rivian Deroh	Posted - 2005.06.26 20:22:00 - [141] couldnt be bothered bout readin all the posts here, but did notice most people put up a rant on how you should use secure cans and blah blah blah, while it is not even the topic of this thread. if you read tealeaf's post she clearly mentions theft of _loot_ and in specific mission related loot. I agree bout all the jet can vs. secure can for mining and all that, but it sucks that peoplecome in after a mission and ripp your loot. why dont they use a sort of assigning method to tag loot cans after a mission, so only the person who acquired them in first place can open them ? just an idea. Riv
TEALEAF	Posted - 2005.06.26 20:24:00 - [142] Originally by: Rivian Deroh couldnt be bothered bout readin all the posts here, but did notice most people put up a rant on how you should use secure cans and blah blah blah, while it is not even the topic of this thread. if you read tealeaf's post she clearly mentions theft of _loot_ and in specific mission related loot. I agree bout all the jet can vs. secure can for mining and all that, but it sucks that peoplecome in after a mission and ripp your loot. why dont they use a sort of assigning method to tag loot cans after a mission, so only the person who acquired them in first place can open them ? just an idea. Riv and an excellent 1 too
Trina Tron	Posted - 2005.06.26 20:26:00 - [143] Originally by: TEALEAF when are ccp gonna do something about thieves. i cant count the ammount of times ive had mision critical loot or ore stolen whilst mining. this is ruining peoples hard work and enjoyment of the game.does anyone have any non flame suggestions what is the best way to deal with this. thanks.TEALEAF. Where do you mine/misson run? Mabey i could stop by and say hello. --------------------------------------------------- + = me!
TEALEAF	Posted - 2005.06.26 20:30:00 - [144] Edited by: TEALEAF on 26/06/2005 20:31:33 Originally by: Trina Tron Originally by: TEALEAF when are ccp gonna do something about thieves. i cant count the ammount of times ive had mision critical loot or ore stolen whilst mining. this is ruining peoples hard work and enjoyment of the game.does anyone have any non flame suggestions what is the best way to deal with this. thanks.TEALEAF. Where do you mine/misson run ? Mabey i could stop by and say hello. in Rens of all places..its crammed with people
Serpensis	Posted - 2005.06.27 12:26:00 - [145] If only CCP could ban ppl for whining, this forum would be a lot better. They are not going to ban oretheft, not even corptheft is against the rules. So get used to it, and quit whining. -- "Fear accompanies the possibility of death, calm sheperds its certainty."
Ryan Calvert	Posted - 2005.06.27 12:38:00 - [146] This is about the 100th thread complaining about ore thieves. The same thing is said in every thread. Then eventually the local moderator locks thread due to repetative and pointless arguements. If u mine into an unsecured canister then u are opening urself up to be stolen from. Solution: - Move to dead-end system (out of a noob system) - Use secure containers Its just part of the game. There are solutions just not the easy one u want. -Blastem.
TEALEAF	Posted - 2005.06.27 22:18:00 - [147] Originally by: Serpensis If only CCP could ban ppl for whining, this forum would be a lot better. They are not going to ban oretheft, not even corptheft is against the rules. So get used to it, and quit whining. CANT YOU READ............MISION CRITICAL LOOT THEFT.. ...there....now its in capitals.......see how many more people cant read ay.
TEALEAF	Posted - 2005.06.27 22:20:00 - [148] Originally by: Ryan Calvert This is about the 100th thread complaining about ore thieves. The same thing is said in every thread. Then eventually the local moderator locks thread due to repetative and pointless arguements. If u mine into an unsecured canister then u are opening urself up to be stolen from. Solution: - Move to dead-end system (out of a noob system) - Use secure containers Its just part of the game. There are solutions just not the easy one u want. -Blastem. ............DER............ITS NOT ABOUT ORE.....................ITS ABOUT MISION CRITICAL LOOT THIEVES........ that must be the 100 th time ive typed that
TEALEAF	Posted - 2005.06.27 22:22:00 - [149] Originally by: fghr Originally by: TEALEAF when are ccp gonna do something about thieves. i cant count the ammount of times ive had mision critical loot or ore stolen whilst mining. this is ruining peoples hard work and enjoyment of the game.does anyone have any non flame suggestions what is the best way to deal with this. thanks.TEALEAF. why dont you read the eula !! if you trow away your ore then your not that smart.And i dont feal sorry for you as a miner you aint got many problems in the world of eve so god forbid someone collect what you trow away etc etc GRRRRRRRRRRRRR........... mision criti......blah blah blah
TEALEAF	Posted - 2005.06.27 22:24:00 - [150] FORGET ORE THIEVES.............. MISION CRITICAL LOOT IS SUBJECT....... PLEASE COMMENT ON THIS........... O N L Y !



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