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CCP Xhagen
C C P C C P Alliance
333

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Posted - 2013.01.16 16:46:00 -
[1] - Quote
Here you can discuss the "Ship Balancing" section of the CSM minutes. CCP Xhagen | Senior Researcher CSM Project Manager
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Omnathious Deninard
Extrinsic Operations
427
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Posted - 2013.01.16 18:59:00 -
[2] - Quote
Is there any plan to give black-ops the covert-ops cloak? Ideas For Drone Improvement Updated 11/30/12Catastrophic Uprising is Recruiting |
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CCP Fozzie
C C P C C P Alliance
3082

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Posted - 2013.01.16 19:06:00 -
[3] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:Is there any plan to give black-ops the covert-ops cloak?
Not in the stopgap change. I won't rule it out as an option for the future however. Game Designer | Team Five-0 https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie |
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Omnathious Deninard
Extrinsic Operations
428
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Posted - 2013.01.16 19:19:00 -
[4] - Quote
Though is was not mentioned in the minutes, do you have a plan for the Orca in the command ship rebalancing? Ideas For Drone Improvement Updated 11/30/12Catastrophic Uprising is Recruiting |
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CCP Fozzie
C C P C C P Alliance
3082

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Posted - 2013.01.16 19:31:00 -
[5] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:Though is was not mentioned in the minutes, do you have a plan for the Orca in the command ship rebalancing?
We'll be looking at all the ships with warfare link bonuses. Game Designer | Team Five-0 https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie |
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Omnathious Deninard
Extrinsic Operations
428
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Posted - 2013.01.16 20:07:00 -
[6] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:Is there any plan to give black-ops the covert-ops cloak? Not in the stopgap change. I won't rule it out as an option for the future however. The proposed changes to the jump range and fuel costs will be welcome. But I personally don't like the thought of 2 black ops ships, the black ops skill on most of the ships is kind of wasted, it could be used to implement better combat bonuses and the velocity buff could be changed to a role bonus removing the velocity penalty from the cloaking device. An idea that I would like to see on one in specific is the Sin, give it another turret hard point and change the hybrid damage bonus to a hybrid tracking bonus. Ideas For Drone Improvement Updated 11/30/12Catastrophic Uprising is Recruiting |

Katrina Oniseki
Revenent Defence Corperation Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
1059
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Posted - 2013.01.16 20:10:00 -
[7] - Quote
Quote:Ytterbium and Fozzie stated that their vision for a future BO revamp (after the initial jump range/fuel change) was that it would include two lines GÇô a combat-oriented BO and a bridging/covert oriented one. Alek stated some reservations about having bridging-only Black Ops, arguing that simply bridging and flying around cloaked was a bit boring -- they should want and be able to fight. Two step suggested that maybe a price reduction would be a big help alongside making them more useful.
By 'two lines', do you mean adding four new black ops ships to create two lineups in the same manner as Recon cruisers? So we'd have four Black Ops balanced towards combat, and four more Black-Ops dedicated towards covert/bridging?
Or are you considering placing two of the current racial black-ops in the combat role and two in covert/bridging?
If you're seriously considering this change, I would hope you're going to add four more ships, instead of pigeonholing two races out of the combat role (even more than they already are). |

Zarnak Wulf
In Exile.
937
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Posted - 2013.01.16 20:17:00 -
[8] - Quote
With regards to AF being 'fine':
The Ishkur could use a brush over with regards to it's drone bonuses. The Harpy could use it's damage bonus moved to a frigate bonus rather then a AF bonus. |

Unforgiven Storm
Eternity INC. Goonswarm Federation
174
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Posted - 2013.01.16 21:16:00 -
[9] - Quote
arent't at least the dreads and carriers be reviewed after the battleships in this summer expansion. In previous blogs I remember someone speaking of reducing skill requiments to BS4 for carriers.
Also caldari/shield carriers sucks compared with armor, minmatar dreadnought is ****, and the citadel torpedoes that my Caldari Dreadnought fires can be speed tanked by any super going more than 10m a second, only hitting for ~60% max damage and totally need to be balanced, specially when we compare them with capital turrent ammo, where I can use a turrent fitted dread to blap ships!
Please tell me carriers and dreads are getting some love this summer? Allow us to change characters of the same account without the need to logout and put the password again. |

Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
332
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Posted - 2013.01.16 22:19:00 -
[10] - Quote
Please rebalance the Pirate frigates, especially the Worm, it needs some serious work. If you want instant gratification, go stimulate your genitals. EvE is Hard, deal with it. |

Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
445
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Posted - 2013.01.16 22:49:00 -
[11] - Quote
Sigh.. I have to work through it all to find the few pvp related things?
Sigh.. I guess i better get to work. |

Bubanni
ElitistOps Pandemic Legion
629
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Posted - 2013.01.16 23:14:00 -
[12] - Quote
There was no mention of interceptors in the minutes... would you like to comment with your view point on them Fozzie in terms of balance?
I am by the opinion that interceptors should have a longer base targeting range +5-10km of their current as a minimum.... Mainly on the tackle range bonused interceptors, as a t2 point by itself has 30km range, and using a stiletto as example has 31.25km lock range at lvl 5 skills, consider overloading the point while also under skirmish links...
I personly think that ehp and speed, agility and such is fine as is, perhaps some slot layouts on some of the interceptors could be looked at, but some of them could use a small PG boost Christmas wish list https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=134275 Module activation delay! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1180934 |

Burseg Sardaukar
Sardaukar Merc Guild General Tso's Alliance
212
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Posted - 2013.01.17 00:09:00 -
[13] - Quote
Vaju Enki wrote:Please rebalance the Pirate frigates, especially the Worm, it needs some serious work.
Yes it definitely does. It's fitting is rough and its DPS is god awful. A unique perk could be a drone damage bonus, which is lacking with frigates. Hey, as a dude that lives in lowsec, you should read my idea on how to "fix" it... in Blog format, complete with a spreadsheet! http://3xxxd.blogspot.com/2012/09/how-to-buff-lowsec.html |

Aliventi
Southern Cross Trilogy Flying Dangerous
22
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Posted - 2013.01.17 01:27:00 -
[14] - Quote
I love the BO stopgap changes!!! You are my hero! I didn't actually see when they were going to hit tranquility in the notes. Can you please release this in the retribution point release? |

fukier
RISE of LEGION
715
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Posted - 2013.01.17 03:27:00 -
[15] - Quote
Aliventi wrote:I love the BO stopgap changes!!! You are my hero! I didn't actually see when they were going to hit tranquility in the notes. Can you please release this in the retribution point release?
i have a feeling in the feb 1.1 retribution we will see this go live. At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box. |

Shinnen
Guardians of Eden
7
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Posted - 2013.01.17 11:24:00 -
[16] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote: The black ops skill on most of the ships is kind of wasted
I don't think you understand the extreme usefulness of the black ops skill.
At level 4, the Black Ops skill allows your Black Ops ship to travel faster cloaked than uncloaked.
Why is this important? Because it allows for "instawarp" out of cloak.
All ships when they uncloak have to get up to speed (3/4ths of their total speed) in order to go into warp.
In a Black Ops ship, with the skill at level 4 for example, your cloaked speed is faster than your uncloaked speed, so much so, that once you hit 1/2 of your total speed while cloaked, you can uncloak and instawarp (because you'll already be at 3/4ths total uncloaked speed).
With level 5 skills, a Redeemer needs to reach only (roughly) 48% of it cloaked total speed to be able to uncloak and instawarp, cutting out a lot of align time. |

Random Woman
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
5
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Posted - 2013.01.17 11:53:00 -
[17] - Quote
Well covert ops cloak kinda does the same, just that you can warp cloaked too :)
I mean its not like the tank/dmg of a cloaky BLOPS is very freightening when you look at ships like the Proteus, that can do just that, just better. So the Reddemer will stay the best BLOPS, because it has most Low slots for Cargo Expanders (Jumpfuel), because thats all they are, fancy shortrange jump bridges. |

Salpad
Carebears with Attitude
302
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Posted - 2013.01.17 12:35:00 -
[18] - Quote
Why aren't T2 Covert Ops frigates a re-balancing priority?
T1 Exploration frigates got a boost last year, when they were given huge drones bays. It ought to be a priority to give a similar boost to Covert Ops frigates, so that it makes sense to use a T2 for exploration and the subsequent site exploitation.
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Omnathious Deninard
Extrinsic Operations
430
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Posted - 2013.01.17 13:00:00 -
[19] - Quote
Shinnen wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote: The black ops skill on most of the ships is kind of wasted
I don't think you understand the extreme usefulness of the black ops skill. At level 4, the Black Ops skill allows your Black Ops ship to travel faster cloaked than uncloaked. Why is this important? Because it allows for "instawarp" out of cloak. All ships when they uncloak have to get up to speed (3/4ths of their total speed) in order to go into warp. In a Black Ops ship, with the skill at level 4 for example, your cloaked speed is faster than your uncloaked speed, so much so, that once you hit 1/2 of your total speed while cloaked, you can uncloak and instawarp (because you'll already be at 3/4ths total uncloaked speed). With level 5 skills, a Redeemer needs to reach only (roughly) 48% of it cloaked total speed to be able to uncloak and instawarp, cutting out a lot of align time. While I will admit that proposing just removing the cloaking velocity as a role bonus would be underwelming, a 500% cloaked velocity bonus would be better, your concept about warp is odd as such in most enviroments where you would need to GTFO you probally cannot cloak as you might be targeted, if you are traveling and system looks good, cloaking is kinda frivilous. Point being, the cloaked velocity bouns is not what I would consider a good T2 ship skill. It would be best applied as a role bonus like the SB covert ops bonus. Ideas For Drone Improvement Updated 11/30/12Catastrophic Uprising is Recruiting |

Roime
Shiva Furnace
1663
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Posted - 2013.01.17 13:05:00 -
[20] - Quote
EAFs were mentioned only in one sentence, any light on what kind of tweaks we can expect to them?
I'd personally be happy to see (in addition to EWAR stats balancing to be in line with T1):
Role bonus: -100% targeting delay after decloaking
Would open up some nice uses, they'd still be fragile and couldn't warp cloaked like recons.
Salpad wrote:Why aren't T2 Covert Ops frigates a re-balancing priority?
T1 Exploration frigates got a boost last year, when they were given huge drones bays. It ought to be a priority to give a similar boost to Covert Ops frigates, so that it makes sense to use a T2 for exploration and the subsequent site exploitation.
Because T2 != better T1, it means specialization in a certain task. Covert Ops frigates specialize in covert ops duties on battlefield.
Shiva Furnace is recruiting! Small gang PVP in wormholes and lowsec. |

Debir Achen
The Red Circle Inc.
35
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Posted - 2013.01.17 13:34:00 -
[21] - Quote
Something I'd really like to see: points removed from cap ship e-war immunity while in siege / triage. One really annoying game mechanic at present is fighting a dread or carrier in siege / triage. When it drops out of siege / triage, attackers have only a moment to re-apply points before it can jump away. Allowing a triaged cap ship to be pointed will have no effect while it's immune, but will mean that it can't simply jump away when the cycle ends. If you want to rescue it, you need to wait for the cycle to end and destroy the tacklers, just the same as if it were a tackled BS or BC.
Perma-immunity of super-caps is obviously a different story. Aren't Caldari supposed to have a large signature? |

Cyaron wars
D00M. Northern Coalition.
21
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Posted - 2013.01.17 14:10:00 -
[22] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote: Not in the stopgap change. I won't rule it out as an option for the future however.
Being a dedicated BO pilot I couldn't wait for anything better then this. I felt off my chair after reading BO part in minutes. I take back all negative that I said before. You Sir are the greatest. Me and rest of our BO pilots are waiting for these changes. Can you please tell approximately when you will introduce us these changes? |

Salpad
Carebears with Attitude
302
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Posted - 2013.01.17 14:10:00 -
[23] - Quote
Roime wrote:Because T2 != better T1, it means specialization in a certain task. Covert Ops frigates specialize in covert ops duties on battlefield.
But I'll look silly taking a T1 frigate into exploration sites. I want a T2 frigate for exploration. And I'm perfectly happy with the T2 Covert Ops frigates except for one thing: Drone bays are too small (or nonexistent).
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Bubanni
ElitistOps Pandemic Legion
629
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Posted - 2013.01.17 14:31:00 -
[24] - Quote
Debir Achen wrote:Something I'd really like to see: points removed from cap ship e-war immunity while in siege / triage. One really annoying game mechanic at present is fighting a dread or carrier in siege / triage. When it drops out of siege / triage, attackers have only a moment to re-apply points before it can jump away. Allowing a triaged cap ship to be pointed will have no effect while it's immune, but will mean that it can't simply jump away when the cycle ends. If you want to rescue it, you need to wait for the cycle to end and destroy the tacklers, just the same as if it were a tackled BS or BC.
Perma-immunity of super-caps is obviously a different story.
That makes sense, personly I think the entire ewar immunity needs to be changed though... as to not prevent ewar, but simply drasticly decrease the effect of ewar vs the ship, call it an inbuilt stacking penality
where the ewar is less than 10% effective from first module... lets say an arazu used a remote sensor dampener II with targeting range vs an Avatar, the targeting range from the remote damp is 58.44% with lvl 5 skills, 10% of 58.44% is 5.844% decrease in targeting range, next remote damp applied would have the normal stacking penalties applied and thus it would be even smaller and smaller, leaving the total range dampend to be very very little
this general principal could apply to all ewar, even points/scrams, and giving ewar immune ships a higher warp core strenght, so say it has 2-5 warp core strenght, and ewar only being 10% of normal, it would take 20-50 points worth (or hic/dic bubble or infinite point) to hold an ewar immune ship... in the example of a triage/siege ship, the moment the siege/triage ends, a single point would be enough, and since it can't jump while in this mode, the point can be applied before it exists the mode...
what about ECM? well... thats an entirely different story, either disallow it to be used completly vs ewar immune ships, or simply use same principal of 10% effectiveness... again using the avatar as example, it has 240 Radar strenght as base, it you use a falcon with overloaded radar jammer, (13.5 points without any other bonuses or links) that would be only 1.35 strenght... or about 0.5% chance to jam (about!)... just consider this... 34x of these ECM modules would result in less than 18-20% chance to jam the avatar... I consider that fairly balanced... don't you? (based on EFT numbers)
I think CCP should be open to the idea at least :D that Ewar immunity was changed to a 10% effectiveness of ewar vs the target. Christmas wish list https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=134275 Module activation delay! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1180934 |

Roime
Shiva Furnace
1666
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Posted - 2013.01.17 14:38:00 -
[25] - Quote
Salpad wrote: But I'll look silly taking a T1 frigate into exploration sites. I want a T2 frigate for exploration.
wut
The topic is "Ship Balancing"
Shiva Furnace is recruiting! Small gang PVP in wormholes and lowsec. |

Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
446
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Posted - 2013.01.17 15:14:00 -
[26] - Quote
I think you should nuke the cap on tier 3 bc's as well as mobility..
And maybe make them a bit tighter on fittings. |

Salpad
Carebears with Attitude
302
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Posted - 2013.01.17 20:17:00 -
[27] - Quote
Garviel Tarrant wrote:I think you should nuke the cap on tier 3 bc's as well as mobility..
And maybe make them a bit tighter on fittings.
If they don't have a bonus already, they could be given a -PG bonus to fit Large turret-type weapons. Or if they already have one, make it bigger.
Of course, if there's too much of such fitting bonussing, it ends up being a heavy-handed form of dictating to pilots how they are to fit their ships.
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Salpad
Carebears with Attitude
302
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Posted - 2013.01.17 20:20:00 -
[28] - Quote
What about T2 Transports? Will they be looked at?
I'm particularly unhappy about the bonus to active shield tanking of the Caldari Bustard, and the general low value of training the Transport skill. +5% shield isn't much. How about +10% shield and +5% to all resists, for the Bustard, and equivalent bonuses for the other Deep Space Transports?
I'd happily train Transports to 5, if it gave me notable benefits.
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Kadesh Priestess
Scalding Chill
251
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Posted - 2013.01.17 23:06:00 -
[29] - Quote
I've just thoroughly read through whole balance section and feel that there's either misinterpretation on my side you inconsistency on CCp's. In one of the older devblogs Ytterbium described general concept, which he intended to follow during ship balancing, and it was confirmed in minutes: t1 is all-round good ship, t2 is specialized version of t1 (but t1 is still better in areas outside of t2 specialization), and t3 is generalization (flexible combination on low-powered specializations). I must say, i quite liked the idea since the very first words, but release of this minutes embarrassed me.
Quote:Greyscale asked the balance team if they were happy with any T2 ship now, compared to T1, and Fozzie responded that they were only happy with Assault Frigs. Greyscale then summed up the comparison between T1 and T2 by using the relationship between AFs and T1 frigs as the model.
Actual situation is quite opposite to what described in here. We can take a look at any pair of t1-AFs, let's take merlin/harpy and jaguar/rifter as random example, with passive shield fit:
Merlin, Harpy Rifter, Jaguar
As we can see, AFs pros: Have more ehp (harpy has 1.7 times more ehp than merlin, jag 1.96 times more than rifter) Better resistances for making remote reps more effective Better damage (herpy 1.34 times, jag 1.5 times) Jag has extra slot and resources for web Smaller sig with mwd (1.87 harpy, 1.76 jag) Better sensors (both ~+30%)
t1 frigs pros: slightly better cap regen (which doesn't really matter here) better speed (rifter is faster by a factor of 1.15, merlin 1.28) better agility (merlin 1.11, rifter 1.18)
Scanres is fluctuating towards both classes. Generally t1 have advantage, but not always and it's insignificant. Same for lock range, though this time AFs are usually better.
Which uses do we have for plain old combat frigates? 1) Fun frig-gangs 2) Solo 3) PvE (up to l4 missions and low-end plexes, fw) 4) In typical gangs for tackling
1) Efficiency-wise, for fun-frig gangs based on close-range weapons (and most of the frigates have to come under scram range, even with LR weaponds - to deal at least some significant damage) AFs are significantly better, they let each pilot to last longer under focus to let others do their job 2) Solo can be different, it can be ab faggotry - like sitting at FW plexes warp-in points, or roaming lesser-populated 0.0 seeking for lone targets to duel, and AFs are better at it. It can be maneuverable PvP to stretch gang and kill off few tacklers, and t1 frigates seem to be better here. 3) AFs without any doubt 4) t1s for placing initial tackle, AFs for sustained tackling
In maneuverable solo t1s still lack both DPS to kill tacklers fast and speed to run away from fast-moving hostiles (like interceptors), thus such metagame puts them on the same level as AFs. This effectively leaves t1 frigates a single role which they do better - placing inital tackle in gangs (given they survive in process).
It's quite opposite to what you've stated: if you have both ships in your hangar, for best efficiency (i'm not considering price factor here) you will pick t2 for most of the tasks you can do with combat frigate, leaving t1 only a narrow set of roles. This happens because t2 has vastly superior tank and damage, sacrificing only minor portion of their mobility, which, in turn, survivability-wise is more than compensated by their mwd sig bonus.
Personally, i like t1-t2 relations of following classes (not all of them are ideal, but still): --destroyers-interdictors: properly fitted thrasher can kill most powerful interdictor - sabre, but sabre is faster and can place bubbles --frigates-interceptors: inties are just faster, and easily killed by most of modern t1 frigates in honourable 1v1. Fleet interceptor's role is to tackle, so that's fine, combat interceptors' imo should kill t1 frigates only when these are caught off-guard or with help from intie's mates --t1 battleships-marauders-blackopses: marauders are usually tight on fitting, have weaker sensors, but have *slightly* better resistances, abundance of utility high slots, and additional (sometimes unique) bonuses - which makes them sometimes better than t1 counterparts in pvp, but only sometimes. BOs are generally weaker, but their unique abilities ensure they have their role, like interdictors (and i'm one of those who doesn't think that BOs need boost) --frigates-stealth bombers: i think SBs are awesome, tho alittle imba - they took 2 very special roles (small sneaky guys with big guns and bombing runs) when other classes struggle to find at least one. Still, generally t1 counterparts are better - SBs can to little to nothing vs frigates, have agility of battlecruiser, have less base ehp and resources for tank.
I could forget some of other pairs, but most of the unmentioned classes are just bad, and do not follow your tech proposal. My personal opinion - is that boost to resistances for t2 ships makes huge difference between t2 and t1 ships (because it heavily influences ehp and remote rep efficiency), making you always to use t2 if possible. I think only 'assault' classes deserve to have better resistances; difference between t1 and t2 versions of the rest of the classes should be narrowed or even completely eliminated (by boosting t1 resistances or nerfing t2, with any desirable HP changes - it all depends on how fast you want ships to die, how effective local/remote reps to be, etc etc), even ship prices can be adjusted via required materials. |

Kadesh Priestess
Scalding Chill
251
|
Posted - 2013.01.17 23:07:00 -
[30] - Quote
Following is the list of my wet dreams, skip at will: Assault Frigates: as decribed above, they have vastly superiour survivability and better damage at the cost of slight reduction of mobility. If you want AFs to serve as general 'combat' platform, its pros could stay as-is (2 out of survivability/range/damage), but come at bigger price Combat and force recons: they are worth to have just because of their unique bonuses (long webs/neuts/cloak/etc), why do they have t2 resistances (although not top-tier ones)? This makes anyone to always pick recon if they need such ewar. To make recons specialized (not slightly better), make them like tech 1 counterparts, just with this additional ewar bonus. Force recons can have their covops cloak for safety, combat recons - stronger than t3s/force recons ewar and slight buff to resistances and/or damage over t1 at the cost of mobility. Command ships - they already have their own specialization over t1, stronger links. Tank-wise they shouldn't be a way better than t1, dps-wise they should be worse. EAFs - currently they are ridiculous despite the resists (because e.g. sentinel can't properly apply its neuts in gang because frigates are fragile, so TDs aree its main weapon, but crucifier is better here due to having the same slot layout and much better lock range). I think just follow approach with combat recons - less mobility, stronger ewar, slightly more tank or damage. HACs - just like AFs. Vagabond is slightly slower than stabber, yes, but it's much more powerful. What are the pros of stabber? HICs - they have their bubble as specialization. Make their tank the same as on new t1s (well, or slightly better) at the high cost of mobility and dps. Logistics - like t1, but stronger/longer reps and smaller sig, at cost of mobility Jump freighters - too good imo, but that's completely other topic (logistics) which i don't want to discuss here Transport ships - do not let t2 ships to hold more stuff. For bigger capacities we've got orcas and freighters. Blockade runners already have good specialization (sneaky), but should hold less than t1; deep space transports are bad though (basically they serve as slower t1 industrials with bigger cargohold). I'd propose to put really good tank on these and ability to resist multiple offensive modifiers (e.g. ignore scram for mwd, reduce effect of webs and neuts), which, accompanied by STRONG tank (with appropriate fit), should let them to burn back to gate under fire of 4-5 battlecruisers (imo they deserve it - they risk to meet camp of 10, which is not unusual, and die). Cargohold should be smaller than on t1 industrials with tank fit too.
Obviously such approach won't make several classes which are already bad (e.g. HACs) better, but this is question of cross-class balance - like tier3 BCs will do all the snipeHAC job as long as its large turrets can hit stuff reliably.
And yes, i wouldn't be happy to see t2 being 'just better', not 'specialized'. |

Irya Boone
Escadron leader
154
|
Posted - 2013.01.18 01:12:00 -
[31] - Quote
never understood Why the end of covert ops operation ships can't fit the High end cloak module and can't warp cloacked ... really don't get it
It would be very nice to look deeper into the Black ops give them a real role except being a fancy jump drivers ships like old post says
Improve C2 class WH More anos more signs ...RENAME null sec system With the name Of REAL Universe Stellar Name like KOI-730 etc etc It xill be awesome-á |

Sinzor Aumer
Atlas Research Group Aerodyne Collective
37
|
Posted - 2013.01.18 10:00:00 -
[32] - Quote
Unforgiven Storm wrote:Please tell me carriers and dreads are getting some love this summer? +1 Any hint on when and what would be done about capships? |

Irregessa
Obfuscation and Reflections
50
|
Posted - 2013.01.18 17:45:00 -
[33] - Quote
In regards to the command ships and already proposed method of rebalancing:
What we have now are two fairly different lines of ships (fleet and field) that are both called Command Ships, both the T2 version of one of the T1 battlecruiser hulls. The two lines do not have the same exact skill requirements, which separates them from the how Recons are handled, which also have two lines, or HACs, of which there are two per race, though not two distinct lines.
The proposed change, the Fozzie's devblog, would actually make the two CS lines closer in operation. They would largely be different in the weapon system used. That has the two racial CSs being less distinguished from each other than even the two HACs, as they at least use different hulls.
What if, instead, the two CSs were split into two entirely different ship types. Leave the fleet line as Command Ships, and make the Field something like Heavy Assault Battlecruiser. The Command Ships (formerly fleet) could then have their tanks appropriately designed - all of them buffer tank based, even the Gallente and Minmatar, as in a fleet they are buffer tanked anyway. The HABCs can be tanked as they are now.
In regards to the lack of use of the Eos, widening the types of links that it gets bonuses for is a band-aid at best. The real solution is to make Information links desirable, which they presently are not. |

Roime
Shiva Furnace
1712
|
Posted - 2013.01.19 11:04:00 -
[34] - Quote
I'd say that Sensor Integrity is indeed very desirable link when combined with lvl 5 [racial] sensor strenght skill and one ECCM.
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |

Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
7231
|
Posted - 2013.01.19 11:11:00 -
[35] - Quote
Irregessa wrote:
In regards to the lack of use of the Eos, widening the types of links that it gets bonuses for is a band-aid at best. The real solution is to make Information links desirable, which they presently are not.
A big part of the problem with the Eos has been that for years and years, the only EW worth anything was ECM, and an armour tanked drone boat is not a good match for a wing of shield tanked ECM ships
Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=192717&find=unread |

Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
370
|
Posted - 2013.01.19 17:34:00 -
[36] - Quote
Don't forget the pirate frigates. The Worm needs some work. If you want instant gratification, go stimulate your genitals. EvE is Hard, deal with it. |

Irregessa
Obfuscation and Reflections
50
|
Posted - 2013.01.19 22:45:00 -
[37] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Irregessa wrote:
In regards to the lack of use of the Eos, widening the types of links that it gets bonuses for is a band-aid at best. The real solution is to make Information links desirable, which they presently are not.
A big part of the problem with the Eos has been that for years and years, the only EW worth anything was ECM, and an armour tanked drone boat is not a good match for a wing of shield tanked ECM ships
Okay, so with the new scheme, the vulture will have bonuses to Information and Siege, Damnation has Armor and Skirmish and Eos will have Information and Armor. That means Vulture for ECM-based fleets and Damnation for armor fleets - especially if it remains the only armor command ship with the armor buffer that it has. The Claymore being Siege and Skirmish will remain a popular wing ship for shield fleets.
Have dampening and turret disruption become real popular in fleets? Otherwise, the Eos will remain not being used. |

Alekseyev Karrde
Noir. Black Legion.
996
|
Posted - 2013.01.20 13:58:00 -
[38] - Quote
Irregessa wrote:Malcanis wrote:Irregessa wrote:
In regards to the lack of use of the Eos, widening the types of links that it gets bonuses for is a band-aid at best. The real solution is to make Information links desirable, which they presently are not.
A big part of the problem with the Eos has been that for years and years, the only EW worth anything was ECM, and an armour tanked drone boat is not a good match for a wing of shield tanked ECM ships Okay, so with the new scheme, the vulture will have bonuses to Information and Siege, Damnation has Armor and Skirmish and Eos will have Information and Armor. That means Vulture for ECM-based fleets and Damnation for armor fleets - especially if it remains the only armor command ship with the armor buffer that it has. The Claymore being Siege and Skirmish will remain a popular wing ship for shield fleets. Have dampening and turret disruption become real popular in fleets? Otherwise, the Eos will remain not being used. A main barrier to such fleet level usage of EWAR in general is the EWAR pilots not knowing what effects are already on the target. If you only have 10 people in fleet, it's easy to coordinate. But if you have 100, you waste a lot of effort jamming things that are already jammed or tracking disrupting someone that already cant lock due to damps etc.
There are work arounds to minimize that, but nothing perfect. Thus the value of all kinds of EWAR diminish as the size of the fight scales up. "Alekseyev Karrde: mercenary of my heart."-á -Arydanika, Voices from the Void
CSM 4 vet, CSM7 Hero Noir./Noir. Academy Recruiting: www.noirmercs.com |

Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
7242
|
Posted - 2013.01.20 14:00:00 -
[39] - Quote
There's also the issue of CCP generally moving EW to EW-bonused boats and nerfing it in non-specialised ships.
EDIT: That said I don't think the possibilities of Tracking Disruptors for fleet use have been fully explored. Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=192717&find=unread |

fukier
RISE of LEGION
729
|
Posted - 2013.01.20 19:07:00 -
[40] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:There's also the issue of CCP generally moving EW to EW-bonused boats and nerfing it in non-specialised ships.
EDIT: That said I don't think the possibilities of Tracking Disruptors for fleet use have been fully explored.
i support this infact i would go as far to make scripts for ew only usable on bonuses ships... At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box. |

Irregessa
Obfuscation and Reflections
50
|
Posted - 2013.01.20 19:20:00 -
[41] - Quote
When looking over the chart for the proposed changes to links, I noticed that the T3 bonuses were not an even mixing of the types. All four races get skirmish, likely because is it universally the most useful of the link bonuses, and the Legion had the exact same bonuses as the Proteus.
The issues with EWAR in general unfortunately fall out of the topic of ship balancing, and given the theme-basis for future expansions, I'm not sure how it would ever be introduced as a change. I'm sure someone will be able think of a rationalization.
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Hemmo Paskiainen
Aliastra Gallente Federation
398
|
Posted - 2013.01.20 23:07:00 -
[42] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:Is there any plan to give black-ops the covert-ops cloak? Not in the stopgap change. I won't rule it out as an option for the future however. The proposed changes to the jump range and fuel costs will be welcome. But I personally don't like the thought of 2 black ops ships, the black ops skill on most of the ships is kind of wasted, it could be used to implement better combat bonuses and the velocity buff could be changed to a role bonus removing the velocity penalty from the cloaking device. An idea that I would like to see on one in specific is the Sin, give it another turret hard point and change the hybrid damage bonus to a hybrid tracking bonus.
To be fair, with the drone upgrades the sin has gone from useless to kinda awesome solo boat (still bad in blob's). With some faction mods and a 3b fit with 1b implant set you get a decent 85k passive shield buffer on overload and some good dps! Still quet expensive for a ship that has to commit in a fight with electron blasters.
I think the 2 classes are really needed. Bridging other ppl or black op'ing only are 2 very different things. Black op's are really high skill intensive. Often i heard from corp m8's "i dont have JDC V ect.
It would be nice to have the option to use them solo in combo with a recon dropper. A small niche. Currently with the drone upgrades the sin could furfill this role a little bit but still lacks all sorts of things. Im not saying that all BO should have this but a differiation in playing style is welcome.
Current problem is that briging a recon cost 1600 (out my head) units of fuel. Currently only 6666 units fits in the fuel bay. Enlarging this to furfill the roll of bridger would make current BO kinda very nice or even maybe a bit overpowerd. Im talking about a 20 to 40k unit fuel bay to make it worth doing a few hot drops (inluding moving before the hotdrop area). Assume 2 recons, 5-6 Sb's & a recon tackler. 1600 x3 + 400 x6 = 7400 units per single drop and i have fc'd bigger blob gangs with mutleple haulers .
All T2 ships have multiple lineups for different purposes exept blackops so this would be logic.
I dont think covert op cloak on a BO would make them overpowerd. It it really easy to decloak a battlesized ship in a bubble (lots of them in 0.0). i think this would make BO's more common & thus more will die. This is a intereresting point to be looked at and need thought about realllly good. Alot better than im in english grammar! ;)
I fly bo's for 4 yrs, i have lots of experiance. Here's a link to the old assembly hall topic i started in 2009, lots of good idea's: http://community.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1204416&page=1
The stopgap changes are really awesome, with the new changes i will dedicate my next 10 shiny kills to the dev that came with this idea (who is that?).
The extra range is really really nice & neeeded. I would like to propose an extra idea ontop of that. Currently doing regional gates are dangerous. Often entrances of regions and camped / bubbled. I would be really nice if BO's could always make 1 jump to the next system even if the next system is out of range. This would cost max jump fuel cost.
Currently BO's can do 6666/850 = 7.8 max range jumps (but you always need to go back rite?, so effective 3.5 jump range). With stopgap that will be 8332/637 = 13 max range jumps (so effective 7 jump range). This is really awesome changes. From a 0.0 perspective there is someties no fuel available in null sec. Often you cant dock in hostile space. On avarage with current range i used to do 2 to 3/4 jumps to get in central hostal space. This are travel jumps that you need to do traveling to it and back. Therefor personaly the fuel bay may be increased or consumption may be reduced a little bit more.
The Covert T3 Cruiser is the only covert ship that can not light and fit the Covert Cyno. Fitting a recon specificly for hot dropping is expensive. Current NPC AI changes makes recons paper thin. NPC agro + target aggro = very quick dead Recon. I fit my recon's with T2 rigs and everything to prevent it from getting killed (and stranded in a BS with a cloak in hostile space). This is quet expensive. Covert T3's that would be able to light Covert Cyno's fit in the current eve environment. With T3 you may get a little bit more tank but it cost alot more and if it dies you lose skilpoints. This encourange "baiting" also better. Baiting the T3 + BO could end up very bady, the hunter become he hunted. In short: Lots of fun & Excitement that keeps you going, this is reson for many people to fly expensive ships.. the adrinaline rush when you accomplish something or simply blow up tiney ships with a 17b smarty panther. Sandboxy on its best <3
The new NPC AI made covert op frigates useless for dropping. This need to be looked at aswell. CCP FIX BLACK OPS FFS
[url]http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/9679/whatihavedoneineve.jpg[/url] |
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