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Devs please sort out Barges and low mining in 0 Space & Isogen useage

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Hawk Firestorm	Posted - 2005.06.28 14:48:00 - [1] One area thats always a problem is the ability to mine low end ores in 0 space. When you introduced both rats in belts it forced everyone into BS's to counter, you put in barges but made em like paper bags, making them useless for mining in 0 space except in larger gangs. I know what your thinking, but end of the day if there's a set mining rate, why punish industrial types by forcing them into 'combat' on unarmed ships? Most mining in 0 space occurs in either solo or small grps, our biggest tool the barge we just can't use to speed up mining the masses of lows required to manufacture in 0 space due to it exploding if you sneeze while sat in it. lol My main point is let the miners mine, the hunters hunt etc and set things out accordingly. Isogen availability in 0 space is a massive problem it can take a entire belt or 2 just to make 1 BS, and the reward for the time consumed mining such huge ammounts for production puts many off, compared to other activeties. If you truely want to encourage deepspace communities and manufacture all the above needs looking at. This is one very big reason why there's so many high mins available, everyone in 0 Space just mines those because mining anything else is kinda unfruitful, for the ammount of time spent.
Moominer	Posted - 2005.06.28 14:51:00 - [2] Signed. Low end ore availability in 0.0 space needs looking at if larger scale production in 0.0 space is ever to become viable.
Hawk Firestorm	Posted - 2005.06.28 15:02:00 - [3] This is going to become a massive issue especially with the introduction of large items such as stations and outposts. We got em in great only just one prob we can't build em. lol
Bigby	Posted - 2005.06.28 15:05:00 - [4] Maybe if the alliances in 0.0 didn't gank anyone who came near their space then people would be more willing to haul from Empire. Or maybe you could offer time windows in the chokepoints where you would allow people safe passage for delivery (have you tried getting a hauler through PF recently?) Just a couple of thoughts
Noriath	Posted - 2005.06.28 15:08:00 - [5] Agreed, if you want to manufacture in lowsec you will have to open trade with people in higher security systems or go there yourself. Just because it's 0.0 doesn't mean everything has to spawn right on your doorstep.
El Principe	Posted - 2005.06.28 15:10:00 - [6] signed. absolutely. Oveur said in his dev blog that an outpost will take several billion isk in Trit. what i want to know is where n 0.0 you plan of finding several Bil in trit. if such a place exists, i dont know of it. perhaps they think that Frieghters are going to fix this. but from what i've seen on sisi. its not going to happen. perhaps this will change with the intro of the COSMOS constilations. But even that is still up in the air.
Seramis	Posted - 2005.06.28 15:16:00 - [7] You can mine it in 0.0. The Veldspar roids in 0.0 are very large :-)
Sillente NiKunni	Posted - 2005.06.28 15:16:00 - [8] you are lucky to find isogen in you'r location. Me in my 0.0 i haven't ANY roid to get Isogen ... pureblind ... ---------------------------------------------- Alt of Simon Illian We are the BoBo. We are not monkey Don't fear the death, only enjoy the play.
The Cosmopolite	Posted - 2005.06.28 15:16:00 - [9] Freighters are likely to be the answer to the vast amounts of minerals outposts will require. Having said that, what do you think will fix this? This... Quote: My main point is let the miners mine, the hunters hunt etc and set things out accordingly. ...sounds like you want areas where rats don't spawn which, to be honest, horrifies me. If you're actually asking for the barges to get a survivability boost - aren't they due to get one this patch? (Or has that been shelved...?) Whatever, I agree barges need to be made more robust. I'm also not really that convinced that the rubbishy 0.0 where hunting is bad (ie true sec status -0.01, -0.02, etc..) is impossible for a barge and guard to operate in. I mean, stay aligned and warp at first sign of spawn doesn't work? The thing is that CCP wish to promote group play. This is not a game that allows soloers to do everything and has never been advertised as such. (Which is why level 4s will likely become very, very difficult to solo after the patch...) Cosmo PS. It occurs to me that a pair of barges and a logistics cruiser might make a nice team post-patch... Jericho Fraction - CEO: Jade Constantine
Shidhe	Posted - 2005.06.28 16:08:00 - [10] Barges arent meant to fight (having said that, they do well with drones and a shield booster in less hostile environments). You need escorts - which is as it should be in big bad 0.0 - after all the inhabitants there make it dangerous for other people. Agree with the posts that you need trade - start offering good prices for lower end minerals (funded by selling higher end minerals), stop killing everyone on sight, and watch the mins roll in.
Harry Voyager	Posted - 2005.06.28 16:28:00 - [11] Warping out of a belt at the first sign of NPC rats is disruptive enough that it is still more effective to use an Apoc, and defending a barge against a 0.0 rat, even the junk spawns (especially the junk spawns, due the the well nigh invulnerability of NPC inties) is akin to defending a paper towl tube against a fire hose. It's just not going to happen. CCP needs to realise if we are ever going to civilize 0.0 space, we need to have some way of driving off the local wild life first. Can't have people being killed by rodents on the corner of 3rd a main every other morning. Harry Voyager
Cummilla	Posted - 2005.06.28 16:35:00 - [12] No one ever believed me when I stated that one of the biggest issues keeping people from 0,0 was the maldistribution of Ore. Either with some regions with absolutely no high ends at all or even medium or lower high ends to the issue you speak of regarding low end ores. Thing is....I don't even think they are looking at this issue.
DigitalCommunist	Posted - 2005.06.28 16:37:00 - [13] I don't get this post. If you want the mining power that a barge has over an apoc, mine in groups. Who said 0.0 mining should be possible solo? (Ninja mining excluded) The fact that you can do it easily with one or two battleships just shows you how crap the npc spawns are. You try doing that just after Castor, and you'd be out one battleship. If youre in a barge, get some protection I also don't get what your beef is with low ends and isogen. 0.0 has every ore from Veldspar to Mercoxit. If you need trit for battleship production, either haul it from empire (lol), wait for Freighters, or go mine it. _____________________________________ Perpetually driven, your end is our beginning.
Trinelise	Posted - 2005.06.28 16:42:00 - [14] IF there is something there is enough of in 0.0 it is trit. It is everywhere and noone mines it. About isogen , I got 900k at my 0.0 factory :-D
Xiliath	Posted - 2005.06.28 16:44:00 - [15] The barges aren't made to see or last in combat... otherwise the use of battleships and cruisers in mining would be pointless.. It'd then be to easy to take a bunch of barges into 0.0 and mine ark, bistot, ect... You have to work and fight to make isk... can't just make it easy.. ___________________________________________________________ Xiliath; Co-CEO Judge Dread Inc.
Apoll	Posted - 2005.06.28 16:52:00 - [16] Huh? What are you asking right now. The balance is very good to give oportunities to everyone. If they put more trit and iso in 0.0 what's the point for the other to mine in empire? There are corps and people out there who don't care about pvp (because 0.0 means pvp) but they care about mining and they are making profit by mining tritanium, pyerite and isogen to the people who need it in 0.0. The 0.0 miners are getting aprox 10m per hour mining bistot, crokite and dark ochre not including the loots and the bounties. 2m per hour maximum is the profit down in empire if you forgot. If they put more tritanium or iso in 0.0 we need bistot and crokite in 0.5+ That's fair.
Weirda	Posted - 2005.06.28 16:53:00 - [17] LOL. Correct Weirda if wrong (not a miner - but looking for places for miner to operate in 0.0 'light'): Hedbergite give more iso then any other ore, and there is usually some in most 0.0... when not though, Gneiss is just behind Kernite in iso. Spod give a fair amount of trite and py for the fact that it also give decent megacyte and even little morphite. And like someone else said... there is huge Veld and Scordite roids in almost every sector of eve... The biggest problem Weirda ever have is rounding up PY for any major production... not anything else (price aside). It is woefully underproduced/available with respect for how generally 1/4-1/3 as much is needed as trite... -- Thread Killer <END TRANSMISSIO
Roga Midrennie	Posted - 2005.06.28 17:09:00 - [18] If you are mining in small groups you should have no problem mining with barges in 0.0. You only need 1 BS in the belt to tank the spawn forever (domi is good miner+tank) and you can have as many barges/haulers in the belt as you want mining away till they can bear it no more. The reason few people in 0.0 mine scordite is because other people will not buy it off them at a price which would be equivilant to them mining crok and selling the zyd in empire. It's actually more cost/time effective for you to mine crokite, sell it, buy trit in empire + convert it to passive targeters and then haul it to where it is needed than to mine it yourself. You could even do the same with the other minerals that dont pay as well to mine as crok too...
Deja Thoris	Posted - 2005.06.28 17:11:00 - [19] Originally by: Apoll Huh? What are you asking right now. The balance is very good to give oportunities to everyone. If they put more trit and iso in 0.0 what's the point for the other to mine in empire? There are corps and people out there who don't care about pvp (because 0.0 means pvp) but they care about mining and they are making profit by mining tritanium, pyerite and isogen to the people who need it in 0.0. The 0.0 miners are getting aprox 10m per hour mining bistot, crokite and dark ochre not including the loots and the bounties. 2m per hour maximum is the profit down in empire if you forgot. If they put more tritanium or iso in 0.0 we need bistot and crokite in 0.5+ That's fair. There trit roids the size of moons in 0.0 - What hes saying is he cant bring himself to stop mining the high ends in a barge. If there are areas where NO isogen is available, thats a bit retarded.
James Hargreaves	Posted - 2005.06.28 17:18:00 - [20] Edited by: James Hargreaves on 28/06/2005 17:18:42 It sounds like none of you have heard of tank mining. Get a battleship with good cap recharge, like 3 cap chargers then in lows a large armor rep + med if you can't use tech 2 and 3 armor hardeners and cap relays. Then put named mining lasers / miner II's depending on CPU in highs and some medium drones and 1 light drone. Then you get in your pod and scout the belts for a cruiser / frigate spawn without BS and then warp in and wait for all the rats to target you. Then deploy your single light drone and make it attack something. Then your friends warp in and mine with impunity. The light drone will keep aggro on you and insure that the rats never retarget anyone. When your ready to warp out deploy your med drones and kill off the frigs. Literally any battleship can do tank mining, even a scorp, you would just use a tech II med booster.
Tul 'Kas	Posted - 2005.06.28 18:01:00 - [21] Originally by: James Hargreaves It sounds like none of you have heard of tank mining. I'm with this guy. OP complains that barge can't even be used in small groups, I'd call 3 people a small group: 1 apoc, uber-tanked, as many miner 2s as it can run 1 mining barge 1 iteron mk 5 I see that going on all the time, keeps the barge in the belt constantly and keeps the hauler pretty darn busy.
Hawk Firestorm	Posted - 2005.06.28 18:14:00 - [22] Well like I say BALANCE should control mining. Mining low ends in 0 space is tough as is, and in most cases just isn't practical, ISO useage has gone off the chart but nothing was done in belts to reflect this, you can strip mine a entire system just to have enough to make a couple of ships, and that's with a gang of 20 peeps working all day! ROFL Low mining in general needs a look at, especially in 0 space the added complications make it impratical to do so, which is why I've stated that everyone mines highs and sells in empire, which makes empire the hub of the universe. Barges ONLY work in groups, but miners tend to be solo creatures either mining alone or in smaller groups with a few friends. There's no point in a hull if it can't exist in the enviroment, barges being relegated to either tank mining in groups or empire. Ore availability in 0 space is a huge problem for manufacture too, ISO use on BP's is way high and too few of it available in 0 space, along with it's yields being very low, plus many others. Industry in 0 space has never kicked off because of this. Plus as stated now you've got massive mineral sinks comming to 0 space, ok good only prob is gonna be building em, when even building BS's up ere is a nightmare.
Zyrla Bladestorm	Posted - 2005.06.28 18:14:00 - [23] Edited by: Zyrla Bladestorm on 28/06/2005 18:16:37 The assumption that all 0.0 has all ores is false, the way they have the spawns setup seems to cause significant holes in the distribution. Much of the former XF space had little to no ores that yielded any significant quantitys of Mexalon for instance - in most of those regions I lived in at one time or another the only mexalon-yielding ore was Gneiss, which merely has a trace amount, From what I've heard of other regions, most of them have maybe 2/3 of the possible types of ores and almost/completely lack the others. There was also no crokite or dark ochre, not a great deal of arkanor and most of that and the bistot was a long way from the refinerys :p (the addition of refining at the other stations certainly effected that however, its now often merely 4-7 jumps instead of 15) If you live in a 0.0 region that has decent ore for all the minerals you lucked out I've yet to see a soul who was willing to haul base minerals out 40-50 hops on a regular basis, the time it takes is easily enough to earn far, far more than anyone could possibly afford to pay for it just sitting in safe space mining more. . ----- Apologys for any rambling that may have just occurred.
Grimpak	Posted - 2005.06.28 18:19:00 - [24] this reminds me of syndicate when I lived there... tons of nocx... tons of mex... average ammounts of zyd (JQ, 3rd front and Y9G) iso? wtf izzat? ------------------- Quote: Fragm's Oversized Ego Cannon barely scratches the forums, inflicting omgnoonecares damage
Tul 'Kas	Posted - 2005.06.28 19:30:00 - [25] Originally by: Hawk Firestorm everyone mines highs and sells in empire, which makes empire the hub of the universe. Um, isn't that what empire's supposed to be? And of course ppl sell highs in empire, empire doesn't get them any other way. Low ends being a hassle is the price for having high ends at all, it's still easier to acquire them locally then ship them from empire. Originally by: Hawk Firestorm There's no point in a hull if it can't exist in the enviroment And the environment of the game in general, particularly of 0.0, is designed to encourage group interaction. Barge has no trouble existing in that environment. It's going against the grain, working solo and defying group interaction, that gets it killed quick.
Bobby Wilson	Posted - 2005.06.28 19:33:00 - [26] Yeah, ore distributions vary by regions. Iso was hard to come by in Venal, and Megacyte availability was limited. In Stain there was very little Noxcium (unless you count Pyrox :/ ) and the Zyd availability was limited. On an interesting similar note, the related NPC-dropped equipment seems to use very little of the materials rare in that region, so one doesn't always get a lot of relief that way. A big refine of Sansha loot will leave you badly short of nocx and zydrine for a tier I BS long after you have more than enough mex, iso and pyerite to build a tier II BS BW Originally by: Harisdrop No I think you hit it right on winterblink. I agree most sci fi nerds that play Eve are 4-7 in thier social and tact skills. Pirates Yarr!!!!
Bedrock	Posted - 2005.06.28 20:38:00 - [27] are you kidding me? I mine perfectly sound with my 2 accounts. You don't need a huge 'group' to effectively mine. My large barge hardly ever gets touched and i can mine loads of Crok/Bistot. Learn the tricks buddy ---------------------------------------------- [apparent-dreams.com]
Eucarid	Posted - 2005.06.29 03:10:00 - [28] Originally by: Weirda LOL. Correct Weirda if wrong (not a miner - but looking for places for miner to operate in 0.0 'light'): Hedbergite give more iso then any other ore, and there is usually some in most 0.0... when not though, Gneiss is just behind Kernite in iso. Spod give a fair amount of trite and py for the fact that it also give decent megacyte and even little morphite. And like someone else said... there is huge Veld and Scordite roids in almost every sector of eve... The biggest problem Weirda ever have is rounding up PY for any major production... not anything else (price aside). It is woefully underproduced/available with respect for how generally 1/4-1/3 as much is needed as trite... Weirda, that is a common misconception. You have to look at the yield per m3 of an ore, not per refining amount. Here are some isogen amounts for 10,000 m3 of raw ore with no losses: Kernite: 8,042 isogen Omber: 10,233 isogen Hemorphite: 1,413 isogen Hedbergite: 4,720 isogen Gneiss: 1,715 isogen So you can see, the king of isogen is Omber with Kernite a close second. Hedbergite is third. Gneiss is a terrible source of isogen. Spod is a terrible source of trit: 1,750 per 10,000m3 of Spod compared to 300,300 for Veld. Cheers!
Lansfear	Posted - 2005.06.29 04:05:00 - [29] Edited by: Lansfear on 29/06/2005 04:07:26 When in Impass I tried to produce ships and gear for xetic and later ASCN. It simply isnt worth the time and effort. You can spend the same ammount of time mining for 10 mil trit or go for 100mil isk worth of bistot. Then go for the 2 mil pyer, or another 100 mill in bistot... rinse and repeat. It wasn't lack of manpower, or ability. There simply sin't enough low ends out there. We'd stip FR dry and get one and a half bs's..... Or we could have flown 10 bs's down from empire. The options are too extreme. Production in deep .0 simply isn't time friendly. Edit: But the ships and gear I did make sold for a VERY nice profit over empire prices. And people gladly paid it.But again I was lossing money time wise.
Aitrus	Posted - 2005.06.29 04:30:00 - [30] Originally by: Bedrock are you kidding me? I mine perfectly sound with my 2 accounts. You don't need a huge 'group' to effectively mine. My large barge hardly ever gets touched and i can mine loads of Crok/Bistot. Learn the tricks buddy What, you mean have an alt in an apoc or raven get the spawns attention and tank it indefinitely because NPC's are too stupid to change targets?

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