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Takrolimus
   |
Posted - 2005.06.30 00:52:00 -
[1]
We the Undersigned note the following:
- We recognize that the final plans are being finetuned by several galactic conglomerates for the production of Capital-Class Dreadnaught Ships
- Furthermore we recognize that these ships are designed for their pure might in destroying the largest ships and structures of other podpilot corporations.
- Finally we recognize that there will be many pod pilots who will feel the need to use their ill gotten gains to obtain a dreadnaught and use it not against other pod pilots but wastefully against terriatorial pirates..or even worse targets assigned to them by their agents.
We Therefore Agree That, regardless of any animosity or friendship between our corps, If ANY of us locate a pilot using a dreadnaught for anything but its proper use, we will provide the name, location and corp of that pilot to all other signing parties, so that Concord sanctioned Empire Wars may be issued and righteous pwnage be brought forthwith.
To Summarize: Sign this if you agree to destroy ANYONE who uses Dreads to PvE.
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Liu Kaskakka
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Posted - 2005.06.30 00:56:00 -
[2]
Who told you about my siikrit plan? =I
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jbob2000
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Posted - 2005.06.30 01:00:00 -
[3]
Yep, sure why not.
-----------------------------------------------
CANADIAN |
Cosmic Dragon
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Posted - 2005.06.30 01:05:00 -
[4]
Hmmmm well personally i think this is a bad idea mainly because 99% of the eve comunity dont care what people use dreads for 
If dreads were not meant for PvE then the devs will see to it they are not able to but if people can somehow use them on missions then logic dictates that the developers dont mind how they are used 
Personally i dont want a dreadnought id rather have a freighter and kill some trade runs
Beauty Is In The Eye Of The Beer Holder!!! |
Lorth
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Posted - 2005.06.30 01:08:00 -
[5]
 Originally by: Cosmic Dragon
Hmmmm well personally i think this is a bad idea mainly because 99% of the eve comunity dont care what people use dreads for
No kill them all. Must war dec dreadnought useing mission runners!!!!!!
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Moridan
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Posted - 2005.06.30 01:08:00 -
[6]
Dreads will probably be so expensive, if anyone is known to have em, corps will be lining up to war-dec the owners just to get to blow up their shiny isk-sink.
"Speak quietly and carry a big torpedo."
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Cosmic Dragon
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Posted - 2005.06.30 01:13:00 -
[7]
To be honest do you really think thee will be that many mission running dreadnoughts 
Beauty Is In The Eye Of The Beer Holder!!! |
Dark SilverMKII
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Posted - 2005.06.30 01:32:00 -
[8]
War dec on missions runners using dreadnaughts eh? what happens when they go back to their noob corp???
(\_/)
(O.o)
(> <) This is Bunny. Copy Bunny into your signature to help him on his way to world domination. |
Cmd Woodlouse
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Posted - 2005.06.30 01:45:00 -
[9]
Rofl. Class
[G] - Pink Power
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kessah
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Posted - 2005.06.30 01:48:00 -
[10]
Agreed totaly has to be done, if they wana play solo missions go play a single player game!!
--------------------------------------------------------
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Azaeren
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Posted - 2005.06.30 01:51:00 -
[11]
DEATH TO SWA!!!!
-signed-
---------------------------------------------
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benwallace
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Posted - 2005.06.30 01:53:00 -
[12]
Signed
--------------------------
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DrunkenOne
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Posted - 2005.06.30 02:38:00 -
[13]
Nooo I'll fight you all!
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Bleakheart
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Posted - 2005.06.30 02:42:00 -
[14]
Where is Rens again? :P
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pardux
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Posted - 2005.06.30 03:10:00 -
[15]
\o/ /me is going to do lvl4's in a dreadnaught 
Fluffy carebear |
ELECTR0FREAK
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Posted - 2005.06.30 03:21:00 -
[16]
Do any of you honestly think that a Dreadnaught will be able to hit a frigate in a lvl 4 complex?
I wouldn't war deck a Dreadnaught I saw sitting in a lvl 4 spending hours trying to shoot a frigate. I'd sit there and laugh.
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Velic
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Posted - 2005.06.30 03:40:00 -
[17]
Ive got a better idea. lets greif their useage right out of the whole game yup yup. HATE CHANGE!
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Deja Thoris
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Posted - 2005.06.30 04:38:00 -
[18]
Originally by: ELECTR0FREAK
Do any of you honestly think that a Dreadnaught will be able to hit a frigate in a lvl 4 complex?
I wouldn't war deck a Dreadnaught I saw sitting in a lvl 4 spending hours trying to shoot a frigate. I'd sit there and laugh.
It'll prolly come with an xxxxxxl smartbomb
Signed/
Im behind the OP (hopefully about 255km behind)
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ELECTR0FREAK
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Posted - 2005.06.30 05:04:00 -
[19]
Doubtful. The Devs want Dreads to be BS killers and the spearhead of an attack fleet. I doubt they'll give them a win button versus cruisers and frigs.
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Matrix Aran
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Posted - 2005.06.30 05:18:00 -
[20]
/signed
Dreads should NEVER be even allowed near an asteroid belt much less an agent.
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SengH
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Posted - 2005.06.30 05:25:00 -
[21]
But but but what about our XL Modular Stripminer IIs... how are we gonna mine veld out in 0.0?
j/k /signed
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keepiru
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Posted - 2005.06.30 05:46:00 -
[22]
Edited by: keepiru on 30/06/2005 05:47:18
Hrm. While we all agree that Dreads shouldnt be the next BS or well all be waiting for the next bigger ship to come out in half a year, there are some things to consider:
If the Devs dont want them to be used in PvE, they will make it so they cant be used.
Locking all mission gates so they dont accept capital ship isnt very hard.
Let alone how hard it will be to hit anything smaller than a BS in them. By their very nature dreads need escorts to take care of cruisers and frigates, and thus encourage group play.
If anyone decides to PvE in them, i doubt theyll be doing them solo. And if theyre doing it in a group, theyre doing what an MMO is supposed to be about and in that case, neither you nor anyone else has the right to tell them how to play the game, or harass them because they dont play the way you like it.
If they can be used, they will be used, and there aint jack **** that you, me, my dog, and every pvp corp out there can do about it in the end. Face it. You cant kill every mission-runner out there who wants a dread. There's too bleedin' many of them.
Having said, I do wish that dreads have little-to-no use for pve. Trouble is, apart from locking mission gates and making only 10/10 complexes accept them, there is no other way to stop them from having some ability at PvE, bar rendering them unusable for PvP, and turning them into completely dedicated POS wreckers - which is what they were supposed to be, iirc.
The moment they are middling to good at killing battleships - and thus fleet pvp - they become valuable in a PvE context, because of their high defense. Im afraid you cant have one without the other.
-------------
The early bird might get the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese. |
ELECTR0FREAK
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Posted - 2005.06.30 05:58:00 -
[23]
I couldn't have said it better keepiru, I 100% agree. If the Dreads aren't supposed to be for PVP, the Devs will simply limit their abilities versus small ships, and no Dreadnaught will be able to solo a lvl 4 complex. Let Dreads fit Nos so they can't be tackled forever by a frig, but as long as they can't fit effectively to kill small ships, you won't be seeing them used in PVP except to kill small groups of ships.
It seems the Dreads only have a few high slots, but the means to fit some very powerful weapons in those slots. Any Dread pilot that swaps out his 3 XL Gigapulse to fit a couple frigate modules so he can kill Guristas Webifiers will quickly realize that his battleship can do the job much more effectively.
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Remmington Daniels
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Posted - 2005.06.30 06:12:00 -
[24]
signed!
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The Enslaver
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Posted - 2005.06.30 08:44:00 -
[25]
Signed.
--------
FireFoxx80: If you think you can do a better job, go find yourself a datacentre to host a box, get a copy of Visual Studio, and STFU. |
Finix Jaeger
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Posted - 2005.06.30 08:47:00 -
[26]
I'll have to sign this aswell, need to change corp first though :)
-------------------------
Grand Agitator
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Rod Blaine
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Posted - 2005.06.30 08:48:00 -
[27]
I dont care if dreads are able to solo lvl 4 's or not. Seeing they have a dronebay says enough about that tbh, but lets not debate that.
If they show up in lvl 4's at all tho, I will support this initiative just to correct CCP's error of judgement in that case.
Some things arent meant for the masses. Dreadnoughts are one of those.
_______________________________________________
Yes yes, blogging is passÚ I know.
Rod's Ramblingz on Eve-Online
Solutions to your issues. |
fairimear
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Posted - 2005.06.30 08:59:00 -
[28]
im gona npc with a dread till it's so uber it can tank 5 other dreads with l33t xl mods then come after jo for this thread.
(\_/)
(O.o)
(> <) This is Bunny. Copy Bunny into your signature to help him on his way to world Domination.
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Rexthor Hammerfists
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Posted - 2005.06.30 09:01:00 -
[29]
signed
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Maxine Stirner
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Posted - 2005.06.30 09:08:00 -
[30]
If you won't also wardec BS-using solo mission runners also, then I cannot sign on on ethical grounds.
I see nothing improper about interdependent, or group PvE action. At least the targets don't safespot. People that haven't been playing for 2 years, or who aren't willing to use cheap tactics, in order to play at all also need some sort of group content on which to practice and/or fund the efforts of other projects.
The people who really deserve to be upbraided are those who claim to be PvPers, but also avoid all the kinds of PvP they don't care for as much as possible. These are the true hypocrites.
Locking Times & Evil Asteroids |
Rod Blaine
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Posted - 2005.06.30 09:34:00 -
[31]
Dont misunderstand Maxine.
I woud love to see pve content geared for dreads as part of a group effort.
But as it is,the current content would be made farcical with them and as such they need to be excluded from it.
_______________________________________________
Yes yes, blogging is passÚ I know.
Rod's Ramblingz on Eve-Online
Solutions to your issues. |
Reptar
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Posted - 2005.06.30 09:35:00 -
[32]
Signed 
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Reptar
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Posted - 2005.06.30 09:35:00 -
[33]
Edited by: Reptar on 30/06/2005 09:35:06
Bleh double post
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KIATolon
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Posted - 2005.06.30 10:02:00 -
[34]
I will rally together the extra rich mission runners, and all 200 of them will do missions in niya in their dreads...
What are you gunna do about that?
:D
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Maxine Stirner
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Posted - 2005.06.30 10:06:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Rod Blaine
Dont misunderstand Maxine.
I woud love to see pve content geared for dreads as part of a group effort.
But as it is,the current content would be made farcical with them and as such they need to be excluded from it.
Ideally, the content soloable by Dreads would not be enough to maintain upkeep or operational costs. Ironically, it is primarilly PvPers who oppose upkeep costs or other deployment limiting characteristics on capital ships.
Hmm.. maybe with the new Empire conflict changes we can see Amarr Dreads, and possibly (hopefully) even BS, declared contraband in Minmie space? I'd ban the bpcs too, or ban them in their home regions as license fraud instead. I'd want to wait for more infrastructure first, or preferable, player-built infrastructure.
Locking Times & Evil Asteroids |
Takrolimus
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Posted - 2005.06.30 10:32:00 -
[36]
No Acceleration gates should be passable.
No smaller weapons should be *****ble
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Elve Sorrow
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Posted - 2005.06.30 10:35:00 -
[37]
***** = swearing 0.o
Signed btw.
/Elve
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3GG H34D
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Posted - 2005.06.30 10:39:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Elve Sorrow
***** = swearing 0.o
***** = kitty (derogatory version)
=========================================
Think u know 1337?, you dont know nuffink!
Û_±ý+´Åõk*Áu/°÷_¸Ã=5ò@Q@Q@M_?ZåñIîbåÈT~p¶4y+ðÊ% £= p¶4ÀiÔmZã!À©ì¦:BãÌ6xi Ö |
aggro
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Posted - 2005.06.30 10:43:00 -
[39]
i will personally kill anyone i see using a dread for mining.
Where there is trouble you will always find AGGRO |
gr8razorx
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Posted - 2005.06.30 10:51:00 -
[40]
For me the forums are to read not to write. BUT
tbfh anyone using a dread for pve should be kick banned from the game indefinatly.
Of course this is my opinion but i am sure alot of you share it.
Consider this a signed
My Stats |
Vaygr
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Posted - 2005.06.30 11:02:00 -
[41]
Aren't lvl 4 agents being moved out to 0.0 space with this patch? If thats the case I don't see what the problem using a dread to solo lvl 4 missions in if your risking your 1.5 billion isk ship to do it in. As for the lvl 3 agents left in empire well it would be more effective to use battleships for those.
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Gungankllr
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Posted - 2005.06.30 11:12:00 -
[42]
TBH they bought the damn thing, let them use it any damn way they please.
Like the original poster said, if you don't like it, you can always wardec them.
But just because they want to use a 5 Billion ISK Caldari Dreadnought firing Citadel Torpedos to kill Guristas Arrogators, that's their business.
www.hadean.org
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Laocoon
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Posted - 2005.06.30 11:12:00 -
[43]
if people wanna use their ****off great-big ship to do PvE, then why the hell not? Like someone (i forget who) said, the money from missions got wont be enough to upkeep its operation. hell, the crystals for the gigapulse lasers will be horrendously expensive, and the cost of ammo for the other dreads will prob cost more/mission than the mission payout itself!
If someone's gonna go find a BS spawn in 0.0 and capm it with 2 dreads then... they're a**holes as much as the ppl who camp spawns in BSs.
But simply; missions runners will be be ABLE TO AFFORD to a) buy a dread, and b) keep a dread!
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Laocoon
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Posted - 2005.06.30 11:15:00 -
[44]
yeh what ^ he said
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Sobeseki Pawi
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Posted - 2005.06.30 12:09:00 -
[45]
What a silly idea. OMG if any of you use a Titan for PvP, I'ma mine your EYE.
~Sobe |
DrunkenOne
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Posted - 2005.06.30 13:22:00 -
[46]
**** wars. If anyone uses them for missions jusit get 50 people in suicide caracels and all suicide it at the same time. I doubt even a dread can withstand 250 heavys hitting it at once, and some of the caras might survive for a 2nd volley 
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Marruni
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Posted - 2005.06.30 13:30:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Laocoon
yeh what ^ he said
Man your sig is annoying lol |
Drilla
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Posted - 2005.06.30 13:35:00 -
[48]
Signed.
-
*** pure moinage ***
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Namelesz
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Posted - 2005.06.30 13:38:00 -
[49]
Signed.
triple stamped, no erasies!
"EVE Online - even the forums have PVP" - Oveur
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Stormfront
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Posted - 2005.06.30 13:50:00 -
[50]
Go in through gate, kill all the BS.. fly back the 10 AU on regular thrusters while tanking the 10-15 cruisers that are shooting you.
Sounds like fun !
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Selim
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Posted - 2005.06.30 13:57:00 -
[51]
Signed, unless there is new PvE that requires a large group effort to do, where a dread would be needed.
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Cosmic Dragon
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Posted - 2005.06.30 14:04:00 -
[52]
I wonder if capital ships will be useful for level 5 missions
Beauty Is In The Eye Of The Beer Holder!!! |
Belian
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Posted - 2005.06.30 14:47:00 -
[53]
Signed.
Shinra Vid |
Anjerrai Meloanis
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Posted - 2005.06.30 14:54:00 -
[54]
Edited by: Anjerrai Meloanis on 30/06/2005 14:54:45
Why is it ppl complain about agent *****s when the best agents are in 0.0? ppl complain about how mining is so lame as well, and all ppl want to do really is attack defenceless miners, so its no wonder ppl move on the running agents so at least they can fire back against someone trying to kill them..
Ah right, Rens is high security space...
Signed then, if rens ends up being full of 50 dreads outside the brutor station doing missions ill cry :(
uh.
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Cosmic Dragon
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Posted - 2005.06.30 15:00:00 -
[55]
I support dreads doing missions its up to the player who owns one what he or she does with it he spent time and money getting it after all amd this is a mmo so its not up to you what he does but.....
If i see 50+ dreads in one system like rens grinding level 4 missions and later level 5 then i might sign up with killing all mission running dreads, as i dont want one i prefer the freighter or the carrier
Beauty Is In The Eye Of The Beer Holder!!! |
Matthew
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Posted - 2005.06.30 15:10:00 -
[56]
Well, I thought I'd seen enough by now to no longer be surprised by the self-righteous, arrogant, elitist snobbery in some parts of the PvP community, but this has managed to do it.
This pact can basicaly be summarised as the following:
Sign me if you agree to destroy anyone who doesn't play Eve the way you want them to.
Sign me if you think game balance is better achieved by PvP bully boys imposing their vision than the devs designing the game to meet theirs.
Just how good do you think dreads are gonna be at lvl4 missions anyway? Battleships work ok in under-sized missions because you can fit a massive rack of undersized weaponry. The Dread can't do that. If it drops to a smaller sized gun, it's guaranteed to have considerably less damage output than a ship of that gun size could manage (maybe except for frigs, where they could equal it). And as for using drones, sure, it has a drone bay, but if the screenies I saw were correct, it's significantly smaller than on an equivalent battleship, so that's not much help. It may fry the battleships in the mission easily, but it'll take much, much longer than a battleship would to plough through the cruisers and frigs, if it can at all. The only thing the dread has going for it in this situation is that it can tank massively. Which isn't a great problem. The better tank reduces the risk of running the mission, but in turn the dread takes a lot longer to actually do the mission, so reward per time goes down to match the decreased risk. So all in all, solo-ing level4's in dread won't be all that great anyway.
Of course, as part of a group, it would be a different matter, Dread+HAC pairing could be particularly potent. But then again, 2 or more people can do level 4's easily anyway, so that won't really change anything. And it encourages group PvE, which would be a good thing.
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Siroc
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Posted - 2005.06.30 15:37:00 -
[57]
won't be surprized if people making mining plans on Dreads already. Mining in 0.0 while tanking multibattleship spawn :)
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Weirda
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Posted - 2005.06.30 15:50:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Maxine Stirner
Hmm.. maybe with the new Empire conflict changes we can see Amarr Dreads, and possibly (hopefully) even BS, declared contraband in Minmie space? I'd ban the bpcs too, or ban them in their home regions as license fraud instead. I'd want to wait for more infrastructure first, or preferable, player-built infrastructure.
Interesting idea... was alluded at one of the news item (Caldari warship docking in Republic Fleet station or somesuch). Will definatley be interesting to see what they choose to limit our travel, etc...
It may become where ppl go to 0.0 just so they can stop getting hassled by "THE MAN"... 
--
Thread Killer
<END TRANSMISSIO |
Bhaal
|
Posted - 2005.06.30 15:52:00 -
[59]
Edited by: Bhaal on 30/06/2005 15:52:35
PPL can use whatever ship they deem fit for whatever task they want.
I don't get the obsession some of you have with carebears using Dreads...
Maybe you need to learn to mind your own buisness...
If you want to war dec them all, I guess there is nothing stopping you.
Have fun on your crusade...
------------------------------------------------
"for piece sakes!" |
Vanesa Garcia
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Posted - 2005.06.30 16:02:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Takrolimus
To Summarize: Sign this if you agree to destroy ANYONE who uses Dreads to PvE.[/b]
Take a pill, will you? ( Most arrogant and insulting post to date ) How about I sign to ban your account on the bases of harassment?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
| There are people kinda "living" and people kinda "dead" |
----------------------------------------------------- |
Flyyn
|
Posted - 2005.06.30 16:18:00 -
[61]
Originally by: Takrolimus
We the Undersigned note the following:
- We recognize that the final plans are being finetuned by several galactic conglomerates for the production of Capital-Class Dreadnaught Ships
- Furthermore we recognize that these ships are designed for their pure might in destroying the largest ships and structures of other podpilot corporations.
- Finally we recognize that there will be many pod pilots who will feel the need to use their ill gotten gains to obtain a dreadnaught and use it not against other pod pilots but wastefully against terriatorial pirates..or even worse targets assigned to them by their agents.
We Therefore Agree That, regardless of any animosity or friendship between our corps, If ANY of us locate a pilot using a dreadnaught for anything but its proper use, we will provide the name, location and corp of that pilot to all other signing parties, so that Concord sanctioned Empire Wars may be issued and righteous pwnage be brought forthwith.
To Summarize: Sign this if you agree to destroy ANYONE who uses Dreads to PvE.
Humm I am confused, either your a cross bread between a donkey and mule, that can type or your some drop out from lawyer school...... wait both are the same.
 |
Kris Longknife
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Posted - 2005.06.30 16:25:00 -
[62]
Go a head and sign this folks adds you name to the list of others that CCP does not care to listen too. Just another griefer posting more crap to shout how uber elite he is. If I want to run missions in a dread that is my bussness not yours, If I put basic miners in all the high slots again that is my bussness not yours. Rants like this thread just proves to all, when school is out the kiddies are allowed to play.
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Shamis Orzoz
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Posted - 2005.06.30 16:32:00 -
[63]
Nice post, wrong forum.
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DrunkenOne
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Posted - 2005.06.30 16:45:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Vanesa Garcia
Originally by: Takrolimus
To Summarize: Sign this if you agree to destroy ANYONE who uses Dreads to PvE.[/b]
Take a pill, will you? ( Most arrogant and insulting post to date ) How about I sign to ban your account on the bases of harassment?
Take a pill? That sounds like you want him to drug himself and overdose and die! That sounds like a threat! I suggest he petitions you for out of harrassment, you griefer!
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Jet Collins
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Posted - 2005.06.30 16:53:00 -
[65]
Ahhh what you guys talking about...  I was training For Stripminer2's just so I could fit 4 on a Dread.
YOu people crake me up.
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Vanesa Garcia
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Posted - 2005.06.30 17:13:00 -
[66]
Originally by: DrunkenOne
Originally by: Vanesa Garcia
Originally by: Takrolimus
To Summarize: Sign this if you agree to destroy ANYONE who uses Dreads to PvE.[/b]
Take a pill, will you? ( Most arrogant and insulting post to date ) How about I sign to ban your account on the bases of harassment?
Take a pill? That sounds like you want him to drug himself and overdose and die! That sounds like a threat! I suggest he petitions you for out of harrassment, you griefer!
Does it? I suggest that you should clean your ears to stop hear weird sounds.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
| There are people kinda "living" and people kinda "dead" |
----------------------------------------------------- |
Zeromancer
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Posted - 2005.06.30 17:19:00 -
[67]
What is this tread doing in this forum.?
Anyway, if and when i get myself a Dread i will use it as i see fit.
Do you understand this or do you need to sit down and think about it for a while?
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Zoidberg ENB
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Posted - 2005.06.30 17:33:00 -
[68]
There are two really simple ways that will ensure that Dreads don't go into PVE and neither one of them requires war declerations.
1) Make it near impossible for an XL gun to hit a frigate.
2) Have the Pend Insurance Company refuse to insure Dreads.
This'll make it so Dreadnaughts only come out for when they are really needed: Station Killing and Battleship Killing.
Why walk when you can skip? |
Olivin
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Posted - 2005.06.30 17:39:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Takrolimus
We the Undersigned note the following:
Are you some kind of moron?
Olivin
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Nimrae
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Posted - 2005.06.30 17:47:00 -
[70]
Hmm what's the hostility all about
Why is there always a minority of self imposed uber elitist arrogant pvpers wanting to dictate how players should pve?... That is just plain wrong
Let the players decide how and what they will use their ships for, I will not have a 7yrs old fps freak tell me that I cant fit a miner on my apoc if I so wishes.
Hell who's paying the game subs
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DigitalCommunist
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Posted - 2005.06.30 18:11:00 -
[71]
Atm, using a Dread in lvl 4 mission is like using a bs in lvl 3 mission:
One giant EL OH EL
_____________________________________
Perpetually driven, your end is our beginning.
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keepiru
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Posted - 2005.06.30 18:11:00 -
[72]
Let them sign whatever they want if it makes them feel important, when you consider how many mission runners there are that can pull up 2b isk for a dread you realise it's an empty threat, they simply cant enforce what they say here. Wardec 1. Wardec 100. There's still more of them, than there are of you, you only have to look @ a the map on a busy evening to see where the people concentrate.
So someone's playing the game a way you dont like.
whaaaaaaaaaaaaaambulance.
::Flash Fact:: they pay their subscription same as you do and they have as much right to use the ships they buy in whatever way they deem fit, so long as its not a violation of EULA or an exploit.
Really, such arrogance is unbecoming. 
-------------
The early bird might get the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese. |
Bhaal
|
Posted - 2005.06.30 18:14:00 -
[73]
Quote:
Atm, using a Dread in lvl 4 mission is like using a bs in lvl 3 mission:
One giant EL OH EL
And this harms you in what way exactly?
------------------------------------------------
"for piece sakes!" |
Lucian Alucard
|
Posted - 2005.06.30 18:45:00 -
[74]
Personally unless CCP makes certain mission that are group oriented then no slit their throats and hang them by their intestines. Dreads sever one purpose to inshort macro mine trit off the hulls of ships. There is their use. Now if CCP wants to configure saaaaaaay 8 of the complexes to allow Dreads and rework them by increasing the spawn rate of ships and uping their firepower as well as toss in a "last boss" ship thats also in a Dread then I see no problem. The 8 complexs would be like the pirate faction HQ's and Heavy Shipyards. The places where you expect so many damn ships you NEED a small fleet.
Undisputed Lord Of The Forums!!!
(\_/)
(O.o)
(> <) Pleas help me Kill the bunny so I
can dominate the world |
Miri Tirzan
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Posted - 2005.06.30 18:51:00 -
[75]
Originally by: Lucian Alucard
Personally unless CCP makes certain mission that are group oriented then no slit their throats and hang them by their intestines. Dreads sever one purpose to inshort macro mine trit off the hulls of ships. There is their use. Now if CCP wants to configure saaaaaaay 8 of the complexes to allow Dreads and rework them by increasing the spawn rate of ships and uping their firepower as well as toss in a "last boss" ship thats also in a Dread then I see no problem. The 8 complexs would be like the pirate faction HQ's and Heavy Shipyards. The places where you expect so many damn ships you NEED a small fleet.
Well, like the rest that signed this. Who care what you think I should do with my ships? Because I am pretty sure I am not one of them.
svetlana - "whining gets you stuff. that is why humans got to the top of the food chain and all the other animals got nerfed."
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DigitalCommunist
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Posted - 2005.06.30 19:25:00 -
[76]
Originally by: Bhaal
Quote:
Atm, using a Dread in lvl 4 mission is like using a bs in lvl 3 mission:
One giant EL OH EL
And this harms you in what way exactly?
You asked for it.
It keeps people in empire, even more, because the end game of making isk for empire just got a whole lot easier. So money making and isk/hour just got a huge boost, which means inflation goes even further out of whack. Sane, non-grinding players, and casual gamers get screwed by prices which only reflect what the ravenous horde of agenting carebears are willing to pay.. which at the moment is in the order of several billion per top-end module.
Tech II bpo prices currently reach 10bil easily for any ship or useful module, which means getting into the business is reserved for a) the extremely lucky lottery winners, b) the industrial megacorps like NAGA or c) for the people who turn their corp into one giant farce by having everyone solo-grind in their dreads. Then those wanting to set up a starbase will be doing it simply because its a novelty, and the profit or ease doesn't even come close to agent missions. Then with so many dreads around, the risk to starbase owners increase, and pretty soon anyone wanting to get into it is discouraged which kinda shafts tech II in general. Then tech III will be exclusively owned by three corporations that have had a year and a half to build up a strong infrastructure because they chose to put up with this bull and the rest didn't.
Then theres the fact that with virtually zero risk for runners in Empire, even if you're in a state of war or doing the hardest mission imaginable, none of these pretty ships will get destroyed. Pretty soon we'll have an army of bored idiots in dreads, who have nothing to use their isk on but MORE dreads.. and eventually..
They become as common and as pointless as battleships, and EVE is back to where we were two years ago, with more and more good and long term players leaving due to the sheer stupidity of it all. But no one will notice, because theres 10 newbs joining to replace their subscriptions because of the fact that every single bit of content in this game is available to any solo gamer who really wants it. Then CCP will see the nice rise in income, and continue to listen to the rabid masses who yearn for more crappy "content" patches to keep them occupied until they eventually Ebay their billions to some complete asshat with no clue about EVE but $50 on his Paypal account.
Then EVE Online: The Third Genesis is announced, whose codename will be LINEAGE III.
_____________________________________
Perpetually driven, your end is our beginning.
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Hast
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Posted - 2005.06.30 19:35:00 -
[77]
Originally by: DigitalCommunist
Originally by: Bhaal
Quote:
Atm, using a Dread in lvl 4 mission is like using a bs in lvl 3 mission:
One giant EL OH EL
And this harms you in what way exactly?
You asked for it.
It keeps people in empire, even more, because the end game of making isk for empire just got a whole lot easier. So money making and isk/hour just got a huge boost, which means inflation goes even further out of whack. Sane, non-grinding players, and casual gamers get screwed by prices which only reflect what the ravenous horde of agenting carebears are willing to pay.. which at the moment is in the order of several billion per top-end module.
Tech II bpo prices currently reach 10bil easily for any ship or useful module, which means getting into the business is reserved for a) the extremely lucky lottery winners, b) the industrial megacorps like NAGA or c) for the people who turn their corp into one giant farce by having everyone solo-grind in their dreads. Then those wanting to set up a starbase will be doing it simply because its a novelty, and the profit or ease doesn't even come close to agent missions. Then with so many dreads around, the risk to starbase owners increase, and pretty soon anyone wanting to get into it is discouraged which kinda shafts tech II in general. Then tech III will be exclusively owned by three corporations that have had a year and a half to build up a strong infrastructure because they chose to put up with this bull and the rest didn't.
Then theres the fact that with virtually zero risk for runners in Empire, even if you're in a state of war or doing the hardest mission imaginable, none of these pretty ships will get destroyed. Pretty soon we'll have an army of bored idiots in dreads, who have nothing to use their isk on but MORE dreads.. and eventually..
They become as common and as pointless as battleships, and EVE is back to where we were two years ago, with more and more good and long term players leaving due to the sheer stupidity of it all. But no one will notice, because theres 10 newbs joining to replace their subscriptions because of the fact that every single bit of content in this game is available to any solo gamer who really wants it. Then CCP will see the nice rise in income, and continue to listen to the rabid masses who yearn for more crappy "content" patches to keep them occupied until they eventually Ebay their billions to some complete asshat with no clue about EVE but $50 on his Paypal account.
Then EVE Online: The Third Genesis is announced, whose codename will be LINEAGE III.
bwahahahahaha
Best. Post. Ever.
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Deja Thoris
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Posted - 2005.06.30 23:14:00 -
[78]
Ahh, jeez guys, this was a semi joking thread in my eyes.
Now its just turned into "griefer/doodyhead" again.
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babo
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Posted - 2005.06.30 23:22:00 -
[79]
insurance on a raven is around 30M, you don't get that back.
so... you and ten other people are willing to spend 35M to grief some dread pilot? I think that will last a few times and you will get sick of blowing the money. If you really want to impact the market go to Niya and start ganking all those billion isk ravens floating around.. (scan and see all the arbies, is strange just how many people have full sets..)
oh.. wait, if you did that you would just be a pirate...
I live in 0.0, not really expecting to see any solo dreads.. those will have fleets around them I expect..
does your ship have a dronebay? If so, sign the petition.. |
Takrolimus
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Posted - 2005.06.30 23:25:00 -
[80]
Edited by: Takrolimus on 30/06/2005 23:27:00
Firstly to the people saying
"U R TEH m0Ron 4 telling people how 2 play the G@me....." and similar inane comments;
You didn't make the same arguement when Zombie camped Yulai and killed 100s of noobs. Nor when m0o did the same in Mara and Passari.
It wasnt unfair to tell people not to be lame and gatecamp, or call for a nerf on dmg mods. Its fine to critisize people for logging in combat, or scamming, or flaming in local.
It wasnt unfair to call for the nerfing/punishment of those described by the term griefer or ganker ie anyone who used the ONLY consistently successful way to get PvP currently implented in the game.
Simply put; If your play does not affect me in any way whatsoever, then YES, I have no right to try to influence you. However, as most of the more intelligent members of the community have already noted, Level 4 Agent missions are NOT a victimless crime, and the damage in terms of exodus from 0.0 and inflation done by them may still prove unfixable.
It is therefore not just ok for me to CHOOSE to try and stop people running missions in a dreadnaught (and therefore reaping even LARGER 100% safe rewards) if CCP are stupid enough to allow it, it is almost my duty If I want the game to survive as anything but some stupid "Level 50 Elves in Space" waste.
As to the people questioning my intelligence or education, msg me ingame if you want to know more about that :P
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aeti
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Posted - 2005.06.30 23:49:00 -
[81]
Originally by: DigitalCommunist
Originally by: Bhaal
Quote:
Atm, using a Dread in lvl 4 mission is like using a bs in lvl 3 mission:
One giant EL OH EL
And this harms you in what way exactly?
You asked for it.
It keeps people in empire, even more, because the end game of making isk for empire just got a whole lot easier. So money making and isk/hour just got a huge boost, which means inflation goes even further out of whack. Sane, non-grinding players, and casual gamers get screwed by prices which only reflect what the ravenous horde of agenting carebears are willing to pay.. which at the moment is in the order of several billion per top-end module.
Tech II bpo prices currently reach 10bil easily for any ship or useful module, which means getting into the business is reserved for a) the extremely lucky lottery winners, b) the industrial megacorps like NAGA or c) for the people who turn their corp into one giant farce by having everyone solo-grind in their dreads. Then those wanting to set up a starbase will be doing it simply because its a novelty, and the profit or ease doesn't even come close to agent missions. Then with so many dreads around, the risk to starbase owners increase, and pretty soon anyone wanting to get into it is discouraged which kinda shafts tech II in general. Then tech III will be exclusively owned by three corporations that have had a year and a half to build up a strong infrastructure because they chose to put up with this bull and the rest didn't.
Then theres the fact that with virtually zero risk for runners in Empire, even if you're in a state of war or doing the hardest mission imaginable, none of these pretty ships will get destroyed. Pretty soon we'll have an army of bored idiots in dreads, who have nothing to use their isk on but MORE dreads.. and eventually..
They become as common and as pointless as battleships, and EVE is back to where we were two years ago, with more and more good and long term players leaving due to the sheer stupidity of it all. But no one will notice, because theres 10 newbs joining to replace their subscriptions because of the fact that every single bit of content in this game is available to any solo gamer who really wants it. Then CCP will see the nice rise in income, and continue to listen to the rabid masses who yearn for more crappy "content" patches to keep them occupied until they eventually Ebay their billions to some complete asshat with no clue about EVE but $50 on his Paypal account.
Then EVE Online: The Third Genesis is announced, whose codename will be LINEAGE III.
for once I 100% agree with digi
strange isn't it :/
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Uncle George
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Posted - 2005.07.01 00:03:00 -
[82]
Edited by: Uncle George on 01/07/2005 00:06:48
Originally by: Takrolimus
However, as most of the more intelligent members of the community have already noted, Level 4 Agent missions are NOT a victimless crime, and the damage in terms of exodus from 0.0 and inflation done by them may still prove unfixable.
Ohh jeez. Try looking at it another way: those people who went from 0.0 to Empire for level 4 missions did it because they were sick of 0.0 and wanted a change from the constant "eyes in the back of your head" you need there - and ccp gave them a good alternative. Well done CCP for focusing on their pay-cheque.
I don't think you have the right to declare war on someone just because they are using a dread for (a) mining [I'm sure this wont' be possible], (b) NPC'ing, (c) agent missions. That would be pure griefing, plain and simple. You can't argue with this. It isn't like there are going to be 1,000 of dreads in the game like there are BS. What right do you have to determine what someone else does with his kit? Sure, in 0.0, do wtf you want, otherwise, you are a griefer.
Think about it - it's so obvious that most of the 1/2 wits posting here can see it; I'm sure CCP can too. If you are just fitting XL guns to your dread, you'll need escorts to take out frigs/cruisers in agent missions in any case. And, like most deadspace complexes, the gates DO limit your ship size.
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Zayth
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Posted - 2005.07.01 00:05:00 -
[83]
This is the most ridiculous post. You are hunting people down for using a ship for a use that you do not agree with? I hope you also start hunting those using ore barges in Empire space, perhaps also Battleships? Where does it end?
I was unaware that this immature mentality of dictatorship existed in EVE. Dictating how paying members wish to use their time in game play with the proper use of ship in a given situation is really pathetic. I suppose it is apart of the role-playing game but go ahead and waste your time as I am sure Titans and Carriers will also be used in a way you also dislike.
What goes around comes around. Do you really want to go around killing pilots with powerful allies and able to pilot some of the most deadly ships? Again think about it.
Z
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Cosmic Dragon
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Posted - 2005.07.01 00:14:00 -
[84]
Originally by: Takrolimus
Edited by: Takrolimus on 30/06/2005 23:27:00
Firstly to the people saying
"U R TEH m0Ron 4 telling people how 2 play the G@me....." and similar inane comments;
You didn't make the same arguement when Zombie camped Yulai and killed 100s of noobs. Nor when m0o did the same in Mara and Passari.
It wasnt unfair to tell people not to be lame and gatecamp, or call for a nerf on dmg mods. Its fine to critisize people for logging in combat, or scamming, or flaming in local.
It wasnt unfair to call for the nerfing/punishment of those described by the term griefer or ganker ie anyone who used the ONLY consistently successful way to get PvP currently implented in the game.
Simply put; If your play does not affect me in any way whatsoever, then YES, I have no right to try to influence you. However, as most of the more intelligent members of the community have already noted, Level 4 Agent missions are NOT a victimless crime, and the damage in terms of exodus from 0.0 and inflation done by them may still prove unfixable.
It is therefore not just ok for me to CHOOSE to try and stop people running missions in a dreadnaught (and therefore reaping even LARGER 100% safe rewards) if CCP are stupid enough to allow it, it is almost my duty If I want the game to survive as anything but some stupid "Level 50 Elves in Space" waste.
As to the people questioning my intelligence or education, msg me ingame if you want to know more about that :P
Ok fare enough when zombie did theer ting and got banned because people didnt like that playing style i see where you are going so what you mean is if i dont like people who sits by a gate and ganks people then if enough of us complain about it we can get then banned from eve.
Or perhaps if people fly dreads in mission you can tell ccp you dont like it and that will get them banned by th esame crappy logic
give it a rest its a MMO that means its not up to you waht people do
Beauty Is In The Eye Of The Beer Holder!!! |
Burnharder
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Posted - 2005.07.01 00:16:00 -
[85]
Originally by: Takrolimus
Edited by: Takrolimus on 30/06/2005 23:27:00
Firstly to the people saying
"U R TEH m0Ron 4 telling people how 2 play the G@me....." and similar inane comments;
You didn't make the same arguement when Zombie camped Yulai and killed 100s of noobs. Nor when m0o did the same in Mara and Passari.
It wasnt unfair to tell people not to be lame and gatecamp, or call for a nerf on dmg mods. Its fine to critisize people for logging in combat, or scamming, or flaming in local.
Please get a grip. The camping you remind us of was TOTALLY out of order. Some guy flying a dread in rens isn't killing n00bs and encouraging them to cancel their accounts. Someone interacting with other players in a negative way is a totally different thing to someone flying a freaking ship around Rens for his agent.
Your problem is one of jealousy. You figure you will never be able to afford a dread; your griefing lifestyle limits your earnings (unless you have a secret mining alt or agent ***** on the sly - most likely) - so, rather than create the opportunity to own one, you want to destroy someone elses. Congratulations. You are a winner.
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nahtoh
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Posted - 2005.07.01 00:45:00 -
[86]
What a bunch of pr!cks
FFS why do you care?
Sorry probably just want a killmail featuring a dread kill thats all...****ers...
"I am not saying there should be capital punishment for stupidity, but
why can`t we just take the safety labels off everything and let the
problem solve itself" (credits to mcallister TCS)
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Vaygr
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Posted - 2005.07.01 01:52:00 -
[87]
Upkeep? They have no upkeep I dont think. XL ammo is in the game RIGHT NOW and its not very expensive. I think its nice to have specific roles for the new ship. Group lvl 5 missions using dreads as anti bs, bs as anti cruisers, and dessies for anti frigs sounds like fun to me.
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O'knar
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Posted - 2005.07.01 02:37:00 -
[88]
I'm sorry, but that's the worst idea i've ever heard.
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Vanesa Garcia
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Posted - 2005.07.01 03:23:00 -
[89]
Originally by: DigitalCommunist
Originally by: Bhaal
Quote:
Atm, using a Dread in lvl 4 mission is like using a bs in lvl 3 mission:
One giant EL OH EL
And this harms you in what way exactly?
You asked for it.
Good post, wrong thread.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
| There are people kinda "living" and people kinda "dead" |
----------------------------------------------------- |
DigitalCommunist
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Posted - 2005.07.01 04:06:00 -
[90]
aeti: In Soviet Russia, DigitalCommunist agrees with YOU!
_____________________________________
Perpetually driven, your end is our beginning.
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Keta Min
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Posted - 2005.07.01 05:50:00 -
[91]
Originally by: Uncle George
Edited by: Uncle George on 01/07/2005 00:06:48
Originally by: Takrolimus
However, as most of the more intelligent members of the community have already noted, Level 4 Agent missions are NOT a victimless crime, and the damage in terms of exodus from 0.0 and inflation done by them may still prove unfixable.
Ohh jeez. Try looking at it another way: those people who went from 0.0 to Empire for level 4 missions did it because they were sick of 0.0 and wanted a change from the constant "eyes in the back of your head" you need there - and ccp gave them a good alternative. Well done CCP for focusing on their pay-cheque.
I don't think you have the right to declare war on someone just because they are using a dread for (a) mining [I'm sure this wont' be possible], (b) NPC'ing, (c) agent missions. That would be pure griefing, plain and simple. You can't argue with this. It isn't like there are going to be 1,000 of dreads in the game like there are BS. What right do you have to determine what someone else does with his kit? Sure, in 0.0, do wtf you want, otherwise, you are a griefer.
Think about it - it's so obvious that most of the 1/2 wits posting here can see it; I'm sure CCP can too. If you are just fitting XL guns to your dread, you'll need escorts to take out frigs/cruisers in agent missions in any case. And, like most deadspace complexes, the gates DO limit your ship size.
This game is all about forcing your playstyle on others for your pleasure or economic benefit. if anyone sees people flying dreads to lvl4 missions as not beneficial to him he can declare war and gank them as much as he wants. if this theoretical someone is strong enough to force you to stop using a ship for the purpose you want and he dislikes, then Good Job!
Another thing: you dont need to have a "right" to declare war. You look funny at someone and he doesnt like that -> wardec.
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Matthew
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Posted - 2005.07.01 10:05:00 -
[92]
Originally by: DigitalCommunist
They become as common and as pointless as battleships, and EVE is back to where we were two years ago, with more and more good and long term players leaving due to the sheer stupidity of it all.
No high-end content in any mmog will remain exclusive and rare indefinitely. Everyone aims for the high-end content, and everyone will get there eventually. Heck, in theory you could get a dread for swanning around empire in without ever using anything but an ibis. Sure, it would take you a ridiculous amount of time, but it could be done.
There is a fundamental quandry in this. You don't want high-end content to be common, else it's no longer high-end content. Yet you need every single player to have the possibility of at some point achieving that high-end content, or new players will have no motivation to play. But when you do that, eventually all those players will have achieved the high-end content, and it's common. I'm not sure what the solution to this is, short of keeping on extending to further and further levels of high-end content, but I do know that the veteran players pulling up the ladder behind them isn't the answer.
Originally by: Lucian Alucard
But back on topic,one does not need Dreads for pve unless CCP makes it so.
Whether someone needs them is a not enough to justify not letting them be used. Besides, if dreads are useless for PvE, why all this fuss about people being able to use them?
Oh, and at this point, I would like to clarify something. I am not completely opposed to the restriction of certain ship classes to certain PvE encounters. I can see some argument for it, even if I don't always agree with them. What really annoyed me was the OP's way of dealing with it. What he's presenting is basically a statement saying that their view of a balanced solution is the only valid one, and that if CCP don't balance the game that way, then they'll run around in-game trying to break what the devs have put in place so that it fits their vision instead. This shows complete lack of respect to the game, the devs, and the other players.
Originally by: Takrolimus
"U R TEH m0Ron 4 telling people how 2 play the G@me....." and similar inane comments;
You didn't make the same arguement when Zombie camped Yulai and killed 100s of noobs. Nor when m0o did the same in Mara and Passari.
It wasnt unfair to tell people not to be lame and gatecamp, or call for a nerf on dmg mods. Its fine to critisize people for logging in combat, or scamming, or flaming in local.
That was dealt with in a completely different way though. Yes, people moaned and called for nerfs. People criticise how certian people choose to conduct themselves. That's all fine. But at the end of the day, in all those cases, players had the argument, but the devs decided which argument was valid and imposed a solution. Your post is nothing like that - it's basically saying that whatever the dev's decide, you're going to try and over-rule them and impose your opinion anyway. I don't have a problem with you not wanting PvE in dreads, it's the way you're choosing to pursue that disagreement that I take issue with. Present your arguments, lets thrash them out, and see who the devs side with.
Originally by: Takrolimus
Level 4 Agent missions are NOT a victimless crime
Level 4 missions are not a crime. The arguments around them have been beaten to death by now. That CCP leave them in indicates one of two things. Either they simply disagree with the arguments against them, or they want them in the game in this form even with the effects they have. It's CCPs game, that's their decision. If it means you no longer want to play the game, then don't.
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Matthew
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Posted - 2005.07.01 10:05:00 -
[93]
Originally by: Takrolimus
It is therefore not just ok for me to CHOOSE to try and stop people running missions in a dreadnaught (and therefore reaping even LARGER 100% safe rewards) if CCP are stupid enough to allow it, it is almost my duty If I want the game to survive as anything but some stupid "Level 50 Elves in Space" waste.
If you believe that will be the result, then present your arguments for that clearly, without all this blustering and threats. Convince the devs you're right. They don't want "Level 50 Elves in Space" any more than you do. But they probably don't want the game to be entirely how you would like it either. But saying you somehow have a "duty" to preserve eve from the devs is staggeringly arrogant. At the end of the day, the only people who have a right to decide which direction Eve goes in are the devs. Your only right is to moan about it, and stop playing if it turns into something you don't like.
Originally by: Keta Min
This game is all about forcing your playstyle on others for your pleasure or economic benefit. if anyone sees people flying dreads to lvl4 missions as not beneficial to him he can declare war and gank them as much as he wants. if this theoretical someone is strong enough to force you to stop using a ship for the purpose you want and he dislikes, then Good Job!
Except he's not saying he's doing it because these people are doing something that's not beneficial to him. If he was, I wouldn't have a problem with it. What he's saying is that he's doing it because they should not have been allowed to perform the activity in the first place. The former is him trying to do best for himself in-game. The latter is him trying to enforce his vision of eve on the devs and playerbase through bullying.
Originally by: Keta Min
Another thing: you dont need to have a "right" to declare war. You look funny at someone and he doesnt like that -> wardec.
True, which is why I haven't called for him to be forcibly prevented from doing this. He has the right to war-dec for whatever reason he likes. But I have the right to disagree with those reasons, find them arrogant, elitist, snobbish, misguided, idiotic, or anything else that fits. Nasty actions are a part of eve, that's fine. But just because it's part of the game doesn't mean players should be immune to being called out for it, and people to react to them differently because of it.
CCP have the right to nerf anything or anyone that the feel is unduly damaging the game, even if they are doing so through currently-permitted mechanics (just like zombie did - their mistake was to continue after a GM had forbade the action). I'm not calling for that now, as I don't think he'll be able to have that sort of effect. CCP also have the right not to nerf things they don't feel need nerfing, no-matter which, or how many, players disagree with them.
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Takrolimus
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Posted - 2005.07.01 10:16:00 -
[94]
Most of the more experienced players think that level 4 agent missions are the worst mistake CCP ever made.
Im not doing this for griefing purposes. Im doing it for economic, Political and most importantly Game survival purposes.
This game is revolutionary because SUCH a large portion of it is player generated compared to other "spoon fed kill mission" MMOs. Agent Missions are now the biggest obstruction to this aim.
Pre Exodus, the game was MUCH healthier than it is now.
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Matthew
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Posted - 2005.07.01 10:47:00 -
[95]
Originally by: Takrolimus
Most of the more experienced players think that level 4 agent missions are the worst mistake CCP ever made.
At one point everyone believed the world was flat. That didn't make them right. It's a silly example, I know, but the principle holds.
Originally by: Takrolimus
Im not doing this for griefing purposes. Im doing it for economic, Political and most importantly Game survival purposes.
The problem is that "game survival" purposes is for the game to survive in the form you want it. Why should the way you want the game to be be any more important than what I want the game to be, or what any other player wants the game to be. Everyone can set out their ideal eve, and argue for it, but the only ones who have the right to impose a certain form on the game are the devs.
Lets face it, market evidence suggests that Eve would survive easily and likely make a lot more money if it transformed into a "Level 50 Elves in Space" game. Eve would survive quite comfortably, just not in the way you want it to.
Originally by: Takrolimus
This game is revolutionary because SUCH a large portion of it is player generated compared to other "spoon fed kill mission" MMOs. Agent Missions are now the biggest obstruction to this aim.
Agent missions are a valid alternative for those that don't want to deal with all the politics and crap that comes with the player generated content. Player-generated and dev-generated content does not have to be mutually exclusive.
Maybe the question you should be asking is, if agent missions are such a lame, boring grind, and the player generated content is so amazing, then why is the player generated side having so much trouble enticing people to participate? To be perfectly honest, I don't think you need to go any further than reading the alliance discussion forum to find an answer.
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