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Archbishop	Posted - 2005.07.03 20:33:00 - [1] Edited by: Archbishop on 03/07/2005 20:35:54 After losing my prized Armageddon today I'm reflecting on what I could've done in battle differently. Honestly NOTHING came to mind except "dont fight". Thats the tactic I'm going to have to use I guess. EW is way overpowered atm. When a 30isk frig can jam a 100,000,000isk BS theres a problem. The group of four ships that ganked me were 2 frigs and 2 cruisers one being a BB. I sat for over five minutes unable to get a lock on anyone. I mean whats the use? Am I supposed to fit 5 WCS down low like a lame pirate and fly away when faced by firepower? How about logging off in combat like a lamer? I mean nothing else seemed to work today? How can you stop EW besides not fighting? This new chance based system totally ignores the mods like Radar Backups (which weren't changed) and basically makes EW all powerful. To someone who RP's and flies only Amarrian ships its a complete letdown in gameplay. I don't mind dealing with EW, in the past I used to have to fit a bunch of Radar Backup II's down low to counter. Today its a different story. One BB basically renders BS's obsolete. How can I fight EW effectively? I'll take any constructive advice. I've lost dozens of ships and have alot more to lose in the future I'm sure. This isn't about losing a ship its about losing the fun ingame when you can't even shoot back. I don't mind being blown up, I'm pretty good at it, but I'd at least like to go down fighting. Archbishop VISIT THE PIE HOMEPAGE & FORUMS PIE INFORMATION CENTER
danneh	Posted - 2005.07.03 20:36:00 - [2] signed!
Elve Sorrow	Posted - 2005.07.03 20:37:00 - [3] The only problem with EW right now is that Backup Arrays have no use. Drones could use some work aswell though, so they don't have to be deployed already when you get jammed, but also engage when you're jammed, THEN deploy drones. Besides that, tough luck. /Elve
Grim Vandal	Posted - 2005.07.03 20:46:00 - [4] lol the old ecm rules would have even more wtfpwnd you ... so i dont know what you are complaining about ... Greetings Grim
Windle Poons	Posted - 2005.07.03 21:11:00 - [5] Ok, I haven't added bonuses for backups (if there are any) and rounded slightly the Jammer strength. Single Racial T2 Jammer = 8 (approx) strength Apoc = 20 Radar Chance to Jam = 40% Apoc with 7 Radar backup IIs (2.4) Chance to Jam = 22% Apoc with 7 Radar backup IIs and 4 ECCM Is (T2 not out afaik) Chance to Jam = 15% So with a WHOLE ship devoted to ECCM I can only reduce my chance of being jammed with ONE SINGLE module by 25%
Elve Sorrow	Posted - 2005.07.03 21:16:00 - [6] With any decent Apoc setup you wont need more then a single cycle to kill a BB though. It wont be tanked in any way. /Elve
Darkwolf	Posted - 2005.07.03 21:21:00 - [7] Here we go with percentage non-linearity again. Going from 40% jam chance to 15% jam chance is quite a large drop. Conversion to ratio gives a 2 in 5 initial jam chance, versus a (very slightly better than) 1 in 7 chance after jamming. In other words, you are jammed less than half as often with the backups as you are without them.
Windle Poons	Posted - 2005.07.03 21:22:00 - [8] Originally by: Darkwolf Here we go with percentage non-linearity again. Going from 40% jam chance to 15% jam chance is quite a large drop. Conversion to ratio gives a 2 in 5 initial jam chance, versus a (very slightly better than) 1 in 7 chance after jamming. In other words, you are jammed less than half as often with the backups as you are without them. I know, but I would need to use 11 Modules to do so, vs one SINGLE offensive module
Archbishop	Posted - 2005.07.03 21:25:00 - [9] Quote: "lol the old ecm rules would have even more wtfpwnd you ... so i dont know what you are complaining about ..." Not at all Grim. Figure 3-4 Amarrian Jammers on the BB so jamming strength of 24. Figure 2-3 Radar Backup II's on my Armageddon (which was the norm) strength of 25. At least there was a CHANCE. To be honest I have NEVER been jammed in combat under the old system for any appreciable amount of time. It took 2-3 EM ships to jam one BS in the past. Now 1 EM ship can basically jam 2-3 BS if it cycles. Is that right? I can't believe this is what CCP intended. They completely forgot to make any modifications to the Backups in the patch when they uberbuffed the EW system. In effect the Backups are completely useless now. At least before unless you were being jammed by multiple ships you had a chance. Archbishop VISIT THE PIE HOMEPAGE & FORUMS PIE INFORMATION CENTER
Nomen Nescio	Posted - 2005.07.03 21:25:00 - [10] 4 ppl on 1 should always win. if they had 4 bs they wont win anyway without any ew Snipers are imune to EW dure to huge range Drones if used right can own after your jamed 2 figs, one bb and one other cruiser. You can just tank all that. But no, you dont tank bs now, you put 8 damage mods and wtfpwn everything you can lock in one volley. To conter ew, take more men on fast ships. Have a assault cover for bs to blow up ew frigs. Fire FOF cruises. Use tank which goes in first, got jammed and tanks. The jump in some assualts or ceptors or whatever with fast locks. Any decent firepower will blow up bb not to mention grifin in a second.
Archbishop	Posted - 2005.07.03 21:26:00 - [11] Edited by: Archbishop on 03/07/2005 21:29:54 Quote: "Here we go with percentage non-linearity again. Going from 40% jam chance to 15% jam chance is quite a large drop. Conversion to ratio gives a 2 in 5 initial jam chance, versus a (very slightly better than) 1 in 7 chance after jamming. In other words, you are jammed less than half as often with the backups as you are without them." Thats true Darkwolf but notice Windle said ONE MODULE not more. Those numbers are for one module only. If your in a BB cycling 4-5 jammers the numbers go way way up. Quote: "To conter ew, take more men on fast ships. Have a assault cover for bs to blow up ew frigs. Fire FOF cruises. Use tank which goes in first, got jammed and tanks. The jump in some assualts or ceptors or whatever with fast locks. Any decent firepower will blow up bb not to mention grifin in a second." Well as the CCP Gods have seen fit to deny missiles to most Amarrian ships the FOF issue is moot. If help had been near they probably would've been jammed to hell and back just as I was. I'm talking about the solo BS which I guess will go the way of the dinasour now as its suicide to fly them because you may run into a BB. Archbishop VISIT THE PIE HOMEPAGE & FORUMS PIE INFORMATION CENTER
Von Korona	Posted - 2005.07.03 21:27:00 - [12] There is no absolute defence, but from the other way around a whole ship devoted to em has a chance of not scoring a single hit.
Windle Poons	Posted - 2005.07.03 21:33:00 - [13] Originally by: Von Korona There is no absolute defence, but from the other way around a whole ship devoted to em has a chance of not scoring a single hit. I do not want absolute defence, I do not want absolute offence. I like ECM in that respect. I just wish that ECCM had more sensible boosting values, as I poined out above, they are not worth fitting due to the pathetic amounts that they boost.
Nomen Nescio	Posted - 2005.07.03 21:39:00 - [14] Edited by: Nomen Nescio on 03/07/2005 21:40:13 Originally by: Archbishop I'm talking about the solo BS which I guess will go the way of the dinasour now as its suicide to fly them because you may run into a BB. Archbishop If you just go on SISI, take an arma and fit 4 hards and armor rep and try to tank it you can tank a bb forever. You may also find that auto targeter is now 50 km range. You as well may check how fast bb or any other ew ship blows up and how much cap it takes to run 6 jams. You may also try to fit 2 sensor boosters and rack of backups and check how slim will be their chances to keep you jammed and if they fail once you may also check how much damage will you pulses do on them. You may also be amazed that you can stick 2 laucnchers on apoc and no matter what you say 2 cruise FOF can be very bad for any ew frig or eevn cruiser on a long run. And while you are at it check how big is the arma drone bay. You problem is that like caldari, amarr have one vision of a setup and then they can't own everything with this one setup they are stunned. Dont fly bs solo in a hostile space, or fit it for solo flight. PS By the way, if enemy has a lot of ew they wont have much scramblers:) If they do have tons of both you are so overpowered that nothing would save you. You can't win 10 to 1 against pvp fitted enemy.
Grimwalius d'Antan	Posted - 2005.07.03 21:40:00 - [15] Somehow, I don't cry for a battleship flying without proper backup into a team of mixed ships dedicated to kill single battleships.
Archbishop	Posted - 2005.07.03 21:42:00 - [16] I look at it this way. The slots on a ship are precious. If someone is going to dedicate one equally as important slot on his ship to jamming me for xx% chance then I should get the same xx% chance of NOT being jammed for using one of my slots to avoid it. Basically the way it is now is a I'd have to dedicate every low slot on a BS to have a chance of not being jammed by ONE jammer much less 4-5. This "new math" of the NWO is a bunch of bullxxxx and EW is completely borked. Fix the Backups CCP and give us a way to defend against this stuff. Right now NO PVP is about the only way to do that and I know I wont be going into combat anytime soon. Archbishop VISIT THE PIE HOMEPAGE & FORUMS PIE INFORMATION CENTER
Archbishop	Posted - 2005.07.03 21:46:00 - [17] Edited by: Archbishop on 03/07/2005 21:48:16 Quote: "Somehow, I don't cry for a battleship flying without proper backup into a team of mixed ships dedicated to kill single battleships." I undocked my ship from a station in an Amarrian home system and there was an assault ship there (frig). I engaged him. He was the only enemy in local. Apparently his friend were nearby and warped in to help him. I tried to dock but couldn't recall my drones. Then the aggro timer stayed on for oh five minutes or so. And I was scrambled and webbed pretty good to. So obviously I didn't "fly into a mixed team of ships" did I? If you have some constructive comment about EW and my request for advice to make please do otherwise go troll somewhere else. Thank you. Archbishop VISIT THE PIE HOMEPAGE & FORUMS PIE INFORMATION CENTER
Anjerrai Meloanis	Posted - 2005.07.03 21:49:00 - [18] I must say that even though you are my enemy this jam first or be jammed warfare we have has to stop. its just now fun. and atm, there is NO COUNTER FOR EW APART FROM JAMMING THEM BACK!!! ahhh, hehe.. signed with all my heart, ive always hated target jamming.. in a game where you cant do much at all without a lock, target jamming is overpowered. in fact, jamming someones lock is better than fitting a tank and warp core stabs... *sigh uh.
Lady Organa	Posted - 2005.07.03 21:50:00 - [19] So obviously I didn't "fly into a mixed team of ships" did I? If you have some constructive comment about EW and my request for advice to make please do otherwise go troll somewhere else. Thank you. Grimwalius d'Antan got pwned!
Archbishop	Posted - 2005.07.03 21:53:00 - [20] Quote: "I must say that even though you are my enemy this jam first or be jammed warfare we have has to stop. its just now fun. and atm, there is NO COUNTER FOR EW APART FROM JAMMING THEM BACK!!!" Well I dont mind fighting and dying I'm pretty good at it. Ive lot alot of ships to the UK and have gone down fighting in every one..... until now. I don't mind losing ships. Thats what my mining barge is for (lol). But I'd like to at least be able to engage the enemy. Instead I felt like that arcade game where you try and use a BB gun to shoot the ducks. I mean I was a sitting duck. Unable to dock, unable to warp away, unable to lock and fire. I mean whats the point? PvP = PvSD in this case .... player versus sitting duck. Archbishop VISIT THE PIE HOMEPAGE & FORUMS PIE INFORMATION CENTER
Ardor	Posted - 2005.07.03 22:04:00 - [21] I never liked EW. I never liked that a cheap frig could render an expensive battleship completly useless. At least now amarrian ships can use EW, too. At least now EW 'specialists' have to train more then one skill to level 1. I still don't like it. If you are looking for a non consentual 1:1 you need a webber, a scrambler and one or more sensor boosters to be able to lock fast enough. Then you find out your opponent is using this 3-4 slots for modules to increase his offensive or defensive performance or target jamms you. The other side has the same problems, though. The game design encourages ganking tactics. If you play to get killmails (I know this isnt your prime intention, Archbishop) you need superior ganking power. Instalock, outnumber your oppenent and bring death in 5 seconds is by far the most efficient way. I had a different, more tactical vision about Eve combat before I signed up. Unfortunatly I can't provide a perfect solution. Eve still has the best PvP system from all mmog I know. I prefer flying a Sacrilege. FoF missiles are loaded as default weapons for a reason.
Kashre	Posted - 2005.07.03 22:06:00 - [22] Originally by: Archbishop Edited by: Archbishop on 03/07/2005 21:48:16 Quote: "Somehow, I don't cry for a battleship flying without proper backup into a team of mixed ships dedicated to kill single battleships." I undocked my ship from a station in an Amarrian home system and there was an assault ship there (frig). I engaged him. He was the only enemy in local. Apparently his friend were nearby and warped in to help him. I tried to dock but couldn't recall my drones. Then the aggro timer stayed on for oh five minutes or so. And I was scrambled and webbed pretty good to. So obviously I didn't "fly into a mixed team of ships" did I? If you have some constructive comment about EW and my request for advice to make please do otherwise go troll somewhere else. Thank you. Archbishop You undocked your BS, alone in a system with hostiles in it, and you engaged a FRIGATE with your BS. If the frigate sat around long enough for you to actually fire on it it was obviously a trap. You should have undocked in a frig and scouted around a bit, you should have checked local for the number of bad guys, you should have tried to get intel from your freinds who might have been in the area, you should have used a ship with FOF's instead of a geddeon... there's a lot of thing you could have done different. All it would have taken is one more freindly in a BS or BC to take out the blackbird and they would have been toast. EW worked exactly the way it should have for them, so Im not sure what the complaint is here. IF you had mounted some ECCM and it didnt do anything for you, then I could understand a complaint. I personally feel that ECCM is a bit too weak under the current system as well. If you fit 2-3 4 points ECCM mods on a ship I think it should be enough to drop a racials 40% chance down to about 20%, it certainly should'nt need 10+ mods to get there. But if you were do make ECCM that powerful, I also think they need a pretty stiff stacking penalty so that fitting more than 4 because less and less useful because I dont think any ship should ever be able to be 100% immune to jamming, and 10 6-8 point ECCMS would be practically immune. +++ It's called "low security space" for a reason.
LoKesh	Posted - 2005.07.03 22:06:00 - [23] My dear Archbishop - As an EW pilot I would respond that the best offense is to know your enemy. I'm (currently) willing to fly a group of frigates against any ship in the game except a Raven, so if I see one coming I rethink my approach - the same applies to EW. Fighting 'through' EW can be done - drones, FoF Cruise missiles and smartbombs. I know, because I watched a brave pilot in an Armageddon destroy 3 of my comrades - despite the fact that I had him jammed. Additionally - yes, EW can be very effective in the hands of a pilot with good skills and the right ship. Much the same way that a skilled Armageddon pilot, such as yourself, can fit lasers and do incredible amounts of damage to many targets. It's a matter of training and skill choice. AND... an EW pilot alone may lock you down - but can do virtually no damage. It may be worth looking at the ECCM modules - but consider this - a blackbird has to give up all of its midslots to be effective, so maybe the target ship should have to give up most its midslots to defend itself. I feel for you - but you were just outnumbered by a force that planned ahead.
Kashre	Posted - 2005.07.03 22:12:00 - [24] Originally by: Ardor I never liked EW. I never liked that a cheap frig could render an expensive battleship completly useless. At least now amarrian ships can use EW, too. At least now EW 'specialists' have to train more then one skill to level 1. I still don't like it. There is a reason a BS should have cruisers or frigates in support of it. To deal with little things like that. Originally by: Ardor If you are looking for a non consentual 1:1 you need a webber, a scrambler and one or more sensor boosters to be able to lock fast enough. Then you find out your opponent is using this 3-4 slots for modules to increase his offensive or defensive performance or target jamms you. The other side has the same problems, though. which is why you should bring a tackler, then you can use your 3-4 mids for your own EW or offensive mods. Originally by: ardor The game design encourages ganking tactics. If you play to get killmails (I know this isnt your prime intention, Archbishop) you need superior ganking power. Instalock, outnumber your oppenent and bring death in 5 seconds is by far the most efficient way. I had a different, more tactical vision about Eve combat before I signed up. Unfortunatly I can't provide a perfect solution. Eve still has the best PvP system from all mmog I know. I think that the game promotes group combat, not just ganking combat. Ganking is the easy way to go so thats what most people do, but a well balanced group which is outnumbered but has EW supperiority and tacklers can beat a small gank fleet. Once you start getting into large fleet battles the dynamic changes of course, but I think we're talking about 1-4 BS type situations here. +++ It's called "low security space" for a reason.
JoCool	Posted - 2005.07.03 23:16:00 - [25] Edited by: JoCool on 03/07/2005 23:17:39 You were out-teched Amarr, deal with it. Just like your 'Geddon usually outguns everything else there is. Your ship was also lost because you had no friends nearby to support you, much to the opposite of your opponent. If you had two mates in Destroyers, Cruisers or (Elite) Frigates you would have won.
LUKEC	Posted - 2005.07.03 23:25:00 - [26] Originally by: JoCool Edited by: JoCool on 03/07/2005 23:17:39 You were out-teched Amarr, deal with it. Just like your 'Geddon usually outguns everything else there is. Your ship was also lost because you had no friends nearby to support you, much to the opposite of your opponent. If you had two mates in Destroyers, Cruisers or (Elite) Frigates you would have won. You know what would happen if he would be in raven?
Archbishop	Posted - 2005.07.03 23:33:00 - [27] Quote: "It may be worth looking at the ECCM modules - but consider this - a blackbird has to give up all of its midslots to be effective, so maybe the target ship should have to give up most its midslots to defend itself." Thats my point. Look on Page 1 at Windle's post. Basically you'd have to dedicate all low slots to have a chance against ONE module (not a bunch). My thinking is this: Ship A: 3 slots dedicated to jamming Ship B: 3 slots dedicated to not being jammed = no jam its a wash I don't mind putting Radar Backup II's down low. I used to use 2-3 of them for an extra 8-12 strength on top of the 17 the ship came with because jamming was a problem. Even then if more then one ship jammed I'd be in trouble. But this.... this is totally different. Its basically one ship can render several BS's vulnerable by itself. I mean its just not right. By not upgrading the backup mods they basically beefed up EW and totally ignored the defense. End result is there isn't one. Quote: "I feel for you - but you were just outnumbered by a force that planned ahead." I dont mind that. I expect to lose more ships then I kill. I'm an industrialist not some uber pvp guy. Still I'd expect to be able to take a few of them with me when I go. To not even be able to lock them is what I'm upset about. Quote: "You were out-teched Amarr, deal with it. Just like your 'Geddon usually outguns everything else there is. Your ship was also lost because you had no friends nearby to support you, much to the opposite of your opponent. If you had two mates in Destroyers, Cruisers or (Elite) Frigates you would have won." If CCP hadn't beefed up EW without beefing up the defense for it I would've at least held my own. Had these EW changes not taken place I'd probably have had 2-3 Radar backup II's down low and would've gotten a few shots off. Odds are I probably would've succumbed but I'd have gotten a couple killmails as well. The general consensus I see here is that no one should fly Battleships at all unless they're in a fleet? Of course with the NWO deal and the jumps to Pator doubling I don't think CCP has to worry about any RP battles in Empire anytime soon. Trying to navigate 15 BS's the 11 jumps to Pator was bad enough. 21 jumps is going to be intolerable. I guess Battleships are out then and Cruisers are back in. Archbishop VISIT THE PIE HOMEPAGE & FORUMS PIE INFORMATION CENTER
Archbishop	Posted - 2005.07.03 23:34:00 - [28] Quote: "I prefer flying a Sacrilege. FoF missiles are loaded as default weapons for a reason." Well if we get a little lovin from TomB and get some missile slots on the Amarrian ships I'd be happy. As for me as I'm not Mr. Supercombat Guy I try to fly cheaper ships most of the time. Still it would be nice to have some missile capability. Archbishop VISIT THE PIE HOMEPAGE & FORUMS PIE INFORMATION CENTER
Zenst	Posted - 2005.07.03 23:55:00 - [29] unsigned, ecm is a % and you were unlucky and i bet you didn't even deloy drones or have any form of ECCM - midlots can be used but if you will fit pure dmg/tank then you takes the risk.
JoCool	Posted - 2005.07.04 00:20:00 - [30] Originally by: LUKEC You know what would happen if he would be in raven? Sure, if he had any Fof cruises loaded they would've targeted the ceptor orbiting him, but never hit jack. And since his Raven would have 5 damage mods, like he had a full stack of in his 'Geddon, it would've run outta cap very fast. Result would be the same.

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