How can you out produce t2 BPOs?
A T2 BPO with 50 ME is going to be a hell of a lot cheaper than a -4 ME BPC, on top of the fact that it has already cost you to do the invention to produce the BPC in the first place.

I think youv'e missed the point. I'm not talking about build time, I'm talking about cost.

If it costs me 50 mil to produce something (including invention cost) but a T2 BPO can produce it at 45 mil, they can just sell the product at 49.5 mil, and make 4.5 mil profit per item, and I can't possibly undercut them, as I am totally unable to get my manufacture cost down low enough to make profit. And it's not though a fault of my own, I've produce the BPC the way the game intends, but because they got a BPO back in the day, and that was never removed, they automatically win the profit battle.

How can you out produce t2 BPOs?

Is the Invention & T2 BPO situation ever likely to change?

Volume GÇö the thing that already makes invention outproduce BPOs by a large margin in any area where T2 manufacturing is profitable.
Since there's no actual need for it to change, no. Not particularly likely.

yeh allot of t2 ships are almost impossible to build at a profit allot are built at a loss. most t2 items are rediculously underpriced

i think generally too thing are way to cheap in eve atm, t2 bpos would be a massive boost to the market

could try inventing teh ships that were introduced after t2 bpo's stopped. you know the ones

the need is in the fact that things are too cheap, and therefore unproifitbale for those who wernt lucky in a lottery

i understand fully what you mean.
t2 bpo produces say 1000 items / month netting you about 500
t2 bpc's produce say 750 per slot so x 10, netting you a bit less per item, but way more over all.

i make a lot of t2 items via invention, its profitible, very if you do it right

the need is in the fact that things are too cheap, and therefore unproifitbale for those who wernt lucky in a lottery

your argument is invalid because so what if you can produce 50 sleipnirs a month if you loose 10 mill on every one

the market is over stocked atm, thats due imo to reduced players. look at the online numbers. its not the bpo's fault ccp have shafted the game in teh last year

Then clearly you are producing items that don't have people competign witha T2 BPO.
Not only can they still produce copies so they can produce just as many, they dont pay invention costs, dont risk invention failure, and can sell at a price you simply can't match. It's nto that you would make little profit, its that you would make no profit at all.

t2 bpos should of been removed from the game when invention was errr invented...ofc the people owning them paid handsomely for it however...

Then clearly you are producing items that don't have people competign witha T2 BPO.
Not only can they still produce copies so they can produce just as many, they dont pay invention costs, dont risk invention failure, and can sell at a price you simply can't match. It's nto that you would make little profit, its that you would make no profit at all.

All I'm saying is, they should bring back BPOs so everyone has a fighting chance.

It should be fair across the board for everyone.

I mean, from a newbie point of view, whats the point of going into T2 production

no the items i producing do have t2 bpo's. i just out produce them and rely on volume of items to make the isk.

Everyone does have a fighting chance. Invention ensures just that.
If you believe that a BPO will give you some kind of advantage (which, given the copy comment, will probably turn out to be false), then go ahead and buy one GÇö it's what most of the current BPO holders did, after allGǪ
Fun fact: it is.

I've done the math on a number of T2 items, and some of them, no matter how much you throw into invention, you could never even produce cheap enough to make profit over existing sell orders, you'd actually be losing alot of ISK. Sure you might be lucky enough to avoid that market, and for me, I currently do, so can make a decent amount, but that doesnt change the experience I gained previously from attempting profitable T2 production.

I didnt say there wasnt a BPO, I said clearly theres no BPO owner competing with you. If there was, he/she could undercut you to the point you can't make profit, and your production would become redundant.

I've done the math on a number of T2 items, and some of them, no matter how much you throw into invention, you could never even produce cheap enough to make profit over existing sell orders, you'd actually be losing alot of ISK. Sure you might be lucky enough to avoid that market, and for me, I currently do, so can make a decent amount, but that doesnt change the experience I gained previously from attempting profitable T2 production.

Everyone does have a fighting chance. Invention ensures just that.
If you believe that a BPO will give you some kind of advantage (which, given the copy comment, will probably turn out to be false), then go ahead and buy one GÇö it's what most of the current BPO holders did, after allGǪ
Fun fact: it is.
From a newbie point of view, why do you think that T2 manufacturing is for you? Maybe it's something you should get into once you know the ropes a bit betterGǪ

GǪonce you do, the point of going into T2 production is obvious: it earns you more money than plain old T1.

Of course a T2 BPO gives you an advantage...

Sure people buy and sell them but thats beside the point really.

not many people have 20-100billion liquid cash Tippia.

Thats why t2 invention was made also to give people a chance.

if you lost money, you didnt do enough checking double and triple checking. most peopel dont when they start off, blindly invent stuff there is so little demand for the price is low.

From a newbie point of view, why do you think that T2 manufacturing is for you? Maybe it's something you should get into once you know the ropes a bit betterGǪ

GǪonce you do, the point of going into T2 production is obvious: it earns you more money than plain old T1.

LOL. I didnt just go willy nilly producing stuff. But doing the math you think "hold up, I can't possibly produce an item for the price that guy is selling at." So that's that item out the window, cos its already being done from a high ME BPO. I shouldnt have to disregard items just cos someones got a BPO. It's not a fair and level playing field.

like i said above, I have previously run into this issue before I moved to my current location, and though it deserves a discussion.

good, a lot of peopel do it blinly at first and loose alot of isk. see and hear about it all the time. you dont ahve to disregard items as tehy ahev a bpo. my most profitible invenst ahve t2 bpo's so i dont see the issue you having, at all

Again, It's not just if the BPO exists, its if a BPO owner is competing in your area.

Again, It's not just if the BPO exists, its if a BPO owner is competing in your area.

To put things in perspective: if you're an inventor, the biggest squeeze on your profits is not T2 BPOs, but the owners of Technetium and R64 moons.

A lot of ships are completely unprofitable to invent, while the market price is such that it makes them profitable to produce even from a ME0 BPO.

The owners of Tech and R64 moons affect T2 BPO owners too, so in that aspect they are on equal starting position with inventors (or better, because they consume less materials).

And the cost of materials is passed onto the consumer, anyway.

Some ships may be unprofitable to invent, but if you're looking at ships like Command ships, Blops & Mauraders, I don't think it's because of all of those BPO holders.

What Malcanis is getting at is the OP is likely being undercut by people that have the contacts to get Technetium at a reduced rate, therefore massively cut down on their costs.

This logic is flawed as it's not what you paid for the resource, but what it is worth that should matter when building, but people still do it (I.E. "I got the ship for free because I mined the minerals myself").

Then you need to address the arguments made in Akita T's thread and try to debunk them. Good luck with that one.


GǪyou're going to need it.

It does give them SOME advantage, in form of cheaper production cost... but it is by no means an UNFAIR advantage, as it comes at great cost. Sure, it's maybe not actual cost, but opportunity cost (the option to just sell the T2 BPO)... yet it's still a cost.

For BlackOps and Marauders there no doubt.

For Command Ships there is doubt.

CCP can clear it, by releasing information what proportion of each Command Ship (and other ships) is produced from BPOs and from invented BPCs.

Sleipnir is (marginally) profitable to invent. Absolution, Damnation, Claymore are not, but somehow I don't consider them "fail" ships, like, say, Eos, for which one is even wondering why it is produced at all, BPO or invention.

It's not really that hard, it's not really very well thought out or constructed.

Points 1 & 2 are the same, and miss the definition of fair.
Fairness is about everyone havign the same opportunity. People that were around during the lottery, win or lose had the same chance. New people don't. That's unfair.

Points 3 & 4 are bascially the same and the same argument we are having here. Ignoring T2 items that BPOs dont exist for, as they don't come into it, BPO vs invention is in favor of BPOs and thats stated in her own post! This makes me laugh:

Like the cost of owning a BPO is that you have to decide whether or not to sell it. I wish I had a cost like that. Having to decide whether to make stuff with a BPO I got for free, or sell it for high billions of ISK. That's not a cost, that's just a business decision.

And as for point 5, sure the market would spike, but it would stabilise, and when it didnt there would be no more prices that meant inventors had to sell at negative profit or sod off.

I'd go into more detail on all of the above but I have to go out so you get the short version. Damn you real life!

Points 1 & 2 are the same, and miss the definition of fair.
Fairness is about everyone havign the same opportunity.

People that were around during the lottery, win or lose had the same chance. New people don't.

Like the cost of owning a BPO is that you have to decide whether or not to sell it. I wish I had a cost like that.

[quote=Tippia]And as for point 5, sure the market would spike, but it would stabilise, and when it didnt there would be no more prices that meant inventors had to sell at negative profit or sod off.

I'd like to make one small suggestion to you. Fire up your manufacturing calculator(you DO have one, right?) and set up a build of say, a single run of T1 ammo. It will show you that you are manufacturing at a loss. Now, increase the number of runs. You will see that your per unit loss decreases with each increase in volume. Eventually, that item, which you lost isk on for making single run on, will turn you a per unit profit, once you make enough of them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_scale

The same basic rules apply to ALL manufacturing. The more you make, the more profit per unit. This is why invention is more profitable that everyone with a T2 BPO would be. If everyone had them, then the noobs would use them, and the people making money would run invention and actually turn a profit due to the volume they are able to trade at.

Nowadays all T2 BPOs really are is status symbols.

I'd like to make one small suggestion to you. Fire up your manufacturing calculator(you DO have one, right?) and set up a build of say, a single run of T1 ammo. It will show you that you are manufacturing at a loss. Now, increase the number of runs. You will see that your per unit loss decreases with each increase in volume. Eventually, that item, which you lost isk on for making single run on, will turn you a per unit profit, once you make enough of them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_scale

The same basic rules apply to ALL manufacturing. The more you make, the more profit per unit. This is why invention is more profitable that everyone with a T2 BPO would be. If everyone had them, then the noobs would use them, and the people making money would run invention and actually turn a profit due to the volume they are able to trade at.

Nowadays all T2 BPOs really are is status symbols.

This is an extremely contrived, misleading and wrong example.

In every production jobs, there are cost per item unit, cost per time unit and a starting cost.

If you item cost exceeds the items sale price after taxes, increasing the volume will only increase you loss. And that's the case with many ships.

Just to clarify based on your link, you're not applying economies of scale directly to EVE are you? Cos you are aware that doesnt work for EVE right?

His example is incorrect, but for rather different reasons, but no, economies of scale most certainly exist in EVE.

Could you elaborate?
Other than finding someone that will give ou a bulk discount, or taking POS costs into account (Which I don't as I cover the cost of my POS outside of manufacture)

I cover the cost of my POS outside of manufacture

Hi
Is the Invention & T2 BPO situation ever likely to change?
The problem being that where originally BPOs were given out, which can be researched and all that jazz, but now only invention works giving you some crappy ME copy.
This means that if you don't own a T2 BPO, you will NEVER be able to produce at a price that is competetive to an alliance with a T2 BPO.

It doesnt even matter if it's ridiculously hard to produce a BPO, make it a 1 in 1,000,000 chance on invention or something, but either BPOs need to start working their way back into the game, or the existing T2 BPOs need to go, because without that you are basically saying there's no point in working towards industry since you'll never be able to beat the already exising industial corps.

While I agree that invention effectively puts an upper limit to the sale price of ALL items, this does not mean that some items aren't exclusively produced by T2 BPO owners, in other words, the inventors are denied entry on this market.

But the thing is that, where (if) that's the case, it's not the BPO owners that deny them entry GÇö it's the consumers, who lack the interest in the product.

Yes they lose money and yes they exist! I know several that i on an almost daily basis try to pound sense into "but i do this for fun i dont care about the money" and then go and run incursions to make the money needed to waste away selling crap under production cost.

Simetraz,

If T2 BPOs is not an issue for a particular item, does not mean it's not an issue for ALL items.

There's simply no public information that allows you or me or anyone to make such conclusions.

While I agree that invention effectively puts an upper limit to the sale price of ALL items, this does not mean that some items aren't exclusively produced by T2 BPO owners, in other words, the inventors are denied entry on this market.

yes, damn people for having fun here. I wont have it!

This makes no sense whatsoever.

You MUST cover your POS costs with manufacture. If not, then there's no reason to do manufacture at all, just do what you used to do in order to "cover" you POS costs and you'll have bigger income.

Here's an example, if something is still not clear.
Taking into account only recurring costs. Say, you have a medium POS, which takes 160M/month fuel cost. You cover you fuel cost, say, with missions. In the same time, You profit from the POS less than 160M/month, say, 159M, Remember, the proposition is you don't cover you POS costs from manufacturing.

Bottom line:
+160M from missions
+159M from manufacturing
-160M for fuel

---

159M profit

If you don't have a POS at all:
+160M from missions

---

160M profit

Regardless if T2 BPO's are an advantage or not. The should be removed.

• if It is an advantage, it should be removed to balance the game.

Regardless if T2 BPO's are an advantage or not. The should be removed.

• if It is an advantage, it should be removed to balance the game.

I think it's been pretty clearly explained that there is no real advantage of BPO vs invention already in this thread.
What about genuine variety in game mechanics? You could pose the question...why have different types of turrets if they are all effectively the same? They all have a short, med, long range variant.

Why have more than one mission?
etc...

It's been pretty firmly established that T2 BPOs don't offer any sort of advantage over invention, in this thread as well as the myriad other threads that this has come up in. They just allow for a bit of variety in manufacturing mechanics...and variety is good.

Considerable uncertainty factor in Invention?

I can point you to t2 BPO owners that have invested billions in a T2 BPO, only to have it nerfed the next patch. The price of the BPO drops entirely and they can't produce the stuff for a profit. Also, if people aren't willing to buy the item you produce, why the hell would they buy a BPC for it?

With invention if something gets nerfed you can just start inventing something else.

But you are talking about people that bought the BPOs in an unwise investment. That's their issue. The current owner can STILL produce the item at a cost lower than inventors. Whether the item is saleable is something they should have looked at before purchase. Either way, doesnt change the fact that they removed the feature, but not the items, which is crazy. It's like removing freighters and saying "oh but you guys already with freighters can keep them"

The only players that object to removing T2 BPOs are the ones that have them.

And they have the audacity to say that invention is better.

But you are talking about people that bought the BPOs in an unwise investment. That's their issue. The current owner can STILL produce the item at a cost lower than inventors. Whether the item is saleable is something they should have looked at before purchase.

The only players that object to removing T2 BPOs are the ones that have them.

The only players that object to removing T2 BPOs are the ones that have them.

And they have the audacity to say that invention is better.

But as you say the players have 0 information about how many of each type of BPO is out there

Patently false. But sure, if you want to take that route: the only ones who want T2 BPOs removed are the ones who have no idea how manufacturing works, and who need someone to blame because they cannot bear the thought that it is their own failure that is bringing them downGǪ

Regardless if T2 BPO's are an advantage or not. The should be removed.

• if It is an advantage, it should be removed to balance the game.

• If it is not an advantage and invention is better, then tech 2 BPO's are not needed and will not be missed.

I would favor change them to a max run bpc with the same ME and PE to ensure enough training time for the untrained to catch up.

Hi
Is the Invention & T2 BPO situation ever likely to change?
The problem being that where originally BPOs were given out, which can be researched and all that jazz, but now only invention works giving you some crappy ME copy.
This means that if you don't own a T2 BPO, you will NEVER be able to produce at a price that is competetive to an alliance with a T2 BPO.

It doesnt even matter if it's ridiculously hard to produce a BPO, make it a 1 in 1,000,000 chance on invention or something, but either BPOs need to start working their way back into the game, or the existing T2 BPOs need to go, because without that you are basically saying there's no point in working towards industry since you'll never be able to beat the already exising industial corps.

Posting to confirm OP is an idiot.
Also, eve isn't fair, T2BPO's don't give an advantage, and newbs cry.
Carry on.

Long story short, if you want the "alleged" advantage of T2BPO's buy them, they only cost billions.

Posting to confirm you have no idea what your talking about.

Actually I know exactly what im talking about, everything I said was true...
Eve is not far, T2BPO's don't give an advantage, and Newbies DO cry....better luck next time.
Ohh and OP is an idiot

last time i checked it nigh impossible to make any kind of profit on the t2 sabre market when inventing BPC's. short of FINDING the materials yourself.

Im game. If everyone else has to work to get their T2 Bpcs, the current holders of T2 BPOs should too. Its pretty unfair that T2 researchers are handling the only chance based function (couldnt think of a better word) IN THE GAME (where it applies to manufacturing etc) when there are people with the BPOs to build those items and dont have to deal with stupid chances.

Better yet, make it so the BPOs have a chance to build the item based on the chance to not build the item in question.

I mean seriously, think of how that whole fun chance based thing would be if it wasnt just invention that had it. If all industrial jobs had it. How fun would it be if all jobs to build a ship had a chance to fail and consume the resources without getting anything back. Or for that matter, if mining lasers had a chance to fail at the end of the cycle. Or weapons. Wouldnt THAT be fun?

Actually I know exactly what im talking about, everything I said was true...
Eve is not far, T2BPO's don't give an advantage, and Newbies DO cry....better luck next time.
Ohh and OP is an idiot

As the lovely troll a few posts above me pointed out,

Fact of the matter is:

Everyone(!) here will argue to their own benefit.


For someone new to the game, understandably, they feel they should get a fair shot at getting their hands on these items as the dinasaurs or business mongooses OR would stop complaining if there was no (Functional) T2 BPO out there.

If someone are in possession of any T2 BPOs they will claim T2 BPOs hardly exist at all and they will at the same time lie about owning one while making any retorical argumentation available to torpedo anyone who argues for removal or reimplementation of T2 BPOs. We all understand that realisation of either of these two posibilitis would result in a major loss to these individuals. You are allowed to disagree but stuff the math up your arses, you're not fooling anyone.


Bottom line:

There is no real reason why T2 BPOs should be allowed to remain in game in there present form. Render them inert so people can keep the as collectables or some such OR re-introduced T2 BPOs in some form of another. This will form an equal market and, after all, getting new people to join in on the Eve experience without feeing they are going agains an unbeatable elite is what matters no?


Stay sharp,T2 BPOs are on their way (out)

(flunk out the last word... or not... whichever suits you).

Dribble

Sight, it's like wankink off with a cheese grater....

Your reasoning is nothing else then crap and puts you into the secret T2 BPO owner category.

The only players that object to removing T2 BPOs are the ones that have them.

And they have the audacity to say that invention is better.

Come on, it would be fair for you to say "the only ones that was T2 BPOS removed are the ones that don't have them", but theres no needto go saying people dont understand manufacturing

I think this thread has shown that the matter is fairly heavily split with relatively good arguments both for and against.

I don't have one, I don't want them removed.

And I have yet to see any motive here other than envy and jealousness to support their removal.


By the way, did you know that some T2 BPOs are real cheap? I'm sure you can find something like a T2 micro-smartbomb BPO pour less than 500M, or a Wasp II BPO for les than 4B. Saying you can't obtain a T2 BPO is patently false.

I was actually pretty pissed off when I realized there is effectively a hard ceiling on production in that you cant GET T2 BPOs anymore.

Then I realized the WHY of it. They need to do this in more games and yes, they need to remove the BPOs as well.

I've done the math on a number of T2 items, and some of them, no matter how much you throw into invention, you could never even produce cheap enough to make profit over existing sell orders, you'd actually be losing alot of ISK. Sure you might be lucky enough to avoid that market, and for me, I currently do, so can make a decent amount, but that doesnt change the experience I gained previously from attempting profitable T2 production.