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Sally	Posted - 2005.07.06 07:22:00 - [1] Edited by: Sally on 06/07/2005 07:28:26 Anyone noticed it? Pre-patch: EMP L: -50% range / 44 dmg Phased Plasma L -37% / 44 dmg Fusion L: -25% / 44 dmg Titanium L: -12% /36 dmg etc. Post Patch: EMP L: -50% range / 44 dmg Phased Plasma L -37% / 40 dmg Fusion L: -25% / 40 dmg etc. Basicaly, projectiles damage now 10% lower on many ammos. They are all 10% lower than hybrid and laser ammos. Pre-patch lower damage on EMP ammo was balanced by higher damage on Fusion ammo. You could also choose close damage type without too much thinking about amount of damage. Now projectiles ammo got nerfed without any aparrent reason. It already was lowest damaging turret in the game, now its got even worse. What was a backthought about it? Was anyone complained about too much damage on projectiles or what??? Or its just a bug? -- Stories: #1 --
Peter Stuyvesant	Posted - 2005.07.06 07:57:00 - [2] Patch notes: Some medium and large projectile ammunition had incorrect damage values. They now deal damage as they were intended.
Xiliath	Posted - 2005.07.06 08:03:00 - [3] I know it was nice, but it's not supposed to be equal damage across the board. We can't have too much of an advantage. ___________________________________________________________ Xiliath; Co-CEO Judge Dread Inc.
Sobeseki Pawi	Posted - 2005.07.06 08:19:00 - [4] Imo EMP got buffed, now that its back as the main dmg ammo. ~Toh'kra Shi'Khran Pawi
Meridius	Posted - 2005.07.06 08:26:00 - [5] PP and Fusion doing 44 damage was bugged, that bug came in with the last ammo change patch. ________________________________________________________
Sally	Posted - 2005.07.06 09:48:00 - [6] Edited by: Sally on 06/07/2005 09:48:36 Originally by: Xiliath I know it was nice, but it's not supposed to be equal damage across the board. We can't have too much of an advantage. What ADVANTAGE you speak? Hybrids and lasers both have 48 dmg for 1st ammo, and 44 for 2th. Projectiles NOW have 44 for 1st and 40 for 2nd. WHERE IS BALANCE? -- Stories: #1 --
DEVILSENIGMA	Posted - 2005.07.06 09:51:00 - [7] Originally by: Sally Edited by: Sally on 06/07/2005 09:48:36 Originally by: Xiliath I know it was nice, but it's not supposed to be equal damage across the board. We can't have too much of an advantage. What ADVANTAGE you speak? Hybrids and lasers both have 48 dmg for 1st ammo, and 44 for 2th. Projectiles NOW have 44 for 1st and 40 for 2nd. WHERE IS BALANCE? Well, Hybrid and Lasers do only two types of damage each. Projectiles have varying damage types that is your advantage. Hard to tank against Projectile Ammo. ~ [My Blog] \| [Roving Guns Kill List]
Meridius	Posted - 2005.07.06 09:57:00 - [8] Originally by: Sally Edited by: Sally on 06/07/2005 09:48:36 Originally by: Xiliath I know it was nice, but it's not supposed to be equal damage across the board. We can't have too much of an advantage. What ADVANTAGE you speak? Hybrids and lasers both have 48 dmg for 1st ammo, and 44 for 2th. Projectiles NOW have 44 for 1st and 40 for 2nd. WHERE IS BALANCE? We are constricted to 2 damage types, lasers putting out mostly EM and hybrids Kinetic, you can do all types. Long range projectile ammo does 24dmg and 2 dmg types, radio does 20dmg and 1 dmg type. WHERE IS BALANCE? 1400 II and AC Tempests are deadly anyway. Stop whining ________________________________________________________
Agnar Koladrov	Posted - 2005.07.06 10:07:00 - [9] Originally by: Meridius Originally by: Sally Edited by: Sally on 06/07/2005 09:48:36 Originally by: Xiliath I know it was nice, but it's not supposed to be equal damage across the board. We can't have too much of an advantage. What ADVANTAGE you speak? Hybrids and lasers both have 48 dmg for 1st ammo, and 44 for 2th. Projectiles NOW have 44 for 1st and 40 for 2nd. WHERE IS BALANCE? We are constricted to 2 damage types, lasers putting out mostly EM and hybrids Kinetic, you can do all types. Long range projectile ammo does 24dmg and 2 dmg types, radio does 20dmg and 1 dmg type. WHERE IS BALANCE? 1400 II and AC Tempests are deadly anyway. Stop whining Do you even consider the younger player here who do not ALL fly there Typhonns and Tempest, but who have to be satisfied with there odd cruisers?? Think about that will ya.
Sobeseki Pawi	Posted - 2005.07.06 10:10:00 - [10] Originally by: Agnar Koladrov Originally by: Meridius Originally by: Sally Edited by: Sally on 06/07/2005 09:48:36 Originally by: Xiliath I know it was nice, but it's not supposed to be equal damage across the board. We can't have too much of an advantage. What ADVANTAGE you speak? Hybrids and lasers both have 48 dmg for 1st ammo, and 44 for 2th. Projectiles NOW have 44 for 1st and 40 for 2nd. WHERE IS BALANCE? We are constricted to 2 damage types, lasers putting out mostly EM and hybrids Kinetic, you can do all types. Long range projectile ammo does 24dmg and 2 dmg types, radio does 20dmg and 1 dmg type. WHERE IS BALANCE? 1400 II and AC Tempests are deadly anyway. Stop whining Do you even consider the younger player here who do not ALL fly there Typhonns and Tempest, but who have to be satisfied with there odd cruisers?? Think about that will ya. I fly a Stabber most of the time. It's fine. ~Toh'kra Shi'Khran Pawi
Sally	Posted - 2005.07.06 10:26:00 - [11] Edited by: Sally on 06/07/2005 10:30:06 Edited by: Sally on 06/07/2005 10:27:35 Quote: We are constricted to 2 damage types, lasers putting out mostly EM and hybrids Kinetic, you can do all types. Long range projectile ammo does 24dmg and 2 dmg types, radio does 20dmg and 1 dmg type. WHERE IS BALANCE? 1400 II and AC Tempests are deadly anyway. Stop whining Balance was in the form of much lower damage on AC and 1400 tempest compared to megathron and armageddon. And we dont speak here about 2 or 3%. Its 30-40% difference. THIS kind of damage dealing disadvantage more than justyfy "different kind of damage". In the patch what boost projectiles developers specificaly said what they changed ammo damage so ppls can choose damage type regardless of damage amount. Now they changed it back how it was - every range have different damage, but they did not brought back the ammo damage amount. So now we got the worst of both changes. And now the kick about long ranges: Railguns have 48km optimal (and much better tracking), 1400 have have 40km optimal. So you should shot at falloff with 1400. If you shot 15km at falloff, thats equal 20% less damage. So even with supposely inferior ammo lasers and hybrids still do a better damage at longer ranges than projectiles. Besides, long range ammo for projectiles got only 2 damage types also. P.S. Oh, btw, arma can now equip 7th beam laser. Another boost to already best damage dealing ship in the game. -- Stories: #1 --
Sally	Posted - 2005.07.06 10:36:00 - [12] We are constricted to 2 damage types, lasers putting out mostly EM and hybrids Kinetic, you can do all types. Long range projectile ammo does 24dmg and 2 dmg types, radio does 20dmg and 1 dmg type. WHERE IS BALANCE? 1400 II and AC Tempests are deadly anyway. Stop whining Balance was in the form of much lower damage on AC and 1400 tempest compared to megathron and armageddon. And we dont speak here about 2 or 3%. Its 30-40% difference. THIS kind of damage dealing disadvantage more than justyfy "different kind of damage". In the patch what boost projectiles developers specificaly said what they changed ammo damage so ppls can choose damage type regardless of damage amount. Now they changed it back how it was - every range have different damage, but they did not brought back the ammo damage amount. So now we got the worst of both changes. And now the kick about long ranges: Railguns have 48km optimal (and much better tracking), 1400 have have 40km optimal. So you should shot at falloff with 1400. If you shot 15km at falloff, thats equal 20% less damage. So even with supposely inferior ammo lasers and hybrids still do a better damage at longer ranges than projectiles - thats not even taking into account the general damage advantage they got. Besides, long range ammo for projectiles got only 2 damage types also. P.S. Oh, btw, arma can now equip 7th beam laser. Another boost to already best damage dealing ship in the game. -- Stories: #1 --
Rexy	Posted - 2005.07.06 10:39:00 - [13] gogo sally go the argument about 1400t2's and tempests is getting old, bar one volley damage they are defenitly not uber as people make em out to be. what ever happened to the proposed ammo changes to projectiles All i want for cristmas is a typhoon with launcher rof bonus :)
Sally	Posted - 2005.07.06 10:49:00 - [14] Originally by: Rexy gogo sally go the argument about 1400t2's and tempests is getting old, bar one volley damage they are defenitly not uber as people make em out to be. what ever happened to the proposed ammo changes to projectiles T2 Megathron and now T2 arma can 1-volley kill untanked cruiser just as well as tempest. And they are much better at killing tanked cruisers than tempest. -- Stories: #1 --
Shadowsword	Posted - 2005.07.06 10:50:00 - [15] I did some calculations, a while ago: a 1400m on a tempest at lv4 has approximately the same dot than a 425mm rail on a Mega at lv4. at BS lv5, the 1400mm start to come out ahaed, even with their ammos doing a little less damage. That ammo fix bring projectiles back to what guns ammos are supposed to be (more range=less damage). Not a big issue...
darth solo	Posted - 2005.07.06 10:54:00 - [16] im a specialisation arty 5 guy and only really use minnie ships... and i know where ur coming from... but we do have the biggest advantage in the game where we can change damage types.... if im against a mega/apoc i know what they are gonna do.
TWD	Posted - 2005.07.06 11:03:00 - [17] Tempest: Best battleship for fleet battles; Higher chance of 1-vollying a battleship. That alone makes the tempest very good.
Acwron	Posted - 2005.07.06 11:08:00 - [18] Originally by: Shadowsword I did some calculations, a while ago: a 1400m on a tempest at lv4 has approximately the same dot than a 425mm rail on a Mega at lv4. at BS lv5, the 1400mm start to come out ahaed, even with their ammos doing a little less damage. That ammo fix bring projectiles back to what guns ammos are supposed to be (more range=less damage). Not a big issue... sorry but thats just wrong. highest dot is still the Mega (considering dmg mods and number of weapons).
Sally	Posted - 2005.07.06 11:18:00 - [19] Originally by: Shadowsword That ammo fix bring projectiles back to what guns ammos are supposed to be (more range=less damage). Not a big issue... It was exactly that way before "projectiles boosting" patch. More range = less damage. Then they reduced damage on highest damage ammo and upped damage on 3th highest damage ammo. NOW they reduced damage on 2th and 3th damage ammo. Net result after 2 patches? NERF. I have no doubt what ppl will still fly tempest even if its damage will be reduced by another 1/3. But its not about personal taster, its about general balance. Someone already computed damages on different T2 setups. Arma and Geddon got 1100 DPS close range. Tempest got only 800 DPS. Thats almost 40% difference. It was also done for long range setups with similar results - slilghtly less than 30% damage difference. And big disadvantage in tracking and range. -- Stories: #1 --
Imhotep Khem	Posted - 2005.07.06 18:10:00 - [20] Originally by: Peter Stuyvesant Patch notes: Some medium and large projectile ammunition had incorrect damage values. They now deal damage as they were intended. thanks. I was about to ask what this whole post was about? In my spreadsheet I used the small values and just multiplied to get the large values. I never noticed the Large and medium values werent multiples of the small values on some ammo. I guess they are now as they match the values I always thought they were... ____ If your not dyin' your not tryin'.
Fred0	Posted - 2005.07.06 18:27:00 - [21] I'm with sally. a 48 ammotype for projectiles would only be fair imho. And everyone muddling the argument by looking at volley damage etc. can just **** off. It's not relevant in a discussion of ammotypes. You can balance guns - ammo's - ships separately thank you very much.
Gabriel Karade	Posted - 2005.07.06 18:36:00 - [22] The Thread starter unfortunatly failed to mention that two of the ammo types got BOOSTED. Nuclear L (the equivalent of Tungsten L, base damage of 24) now does 28 Damage base, 20 Explosive, 8 Thermal. Proton L also got a +4 damage boost. (\_/) (O.o) (> <) "That's no ordinary rabbit!...that's the most foul, cruel and bad-tempered rodent you ever set eyes on"
Selim	Posted - 2005.07.06 19:17:00 - [23] It used to be that hybrid long-range was weaker, but short range was normal. Projectile short range was weaker, but long range was normal. Now hybrids have normal long range and normal short, but projectiles still have weaker short. I don't think its fair. Projectile advantage is supposed to be changing damage types - what is the point when your ammo is weaker? It just negates the advantage, it means you have to switch ammo just to equal everyone else. Plus, it modifies your range, missiles are much better for choosing dmg types.
Gabriel Karade	Posted - 2005.07.06 19:21:00 - [24] Originally by: Selim It used to be that hybrid long-range was weaker, but short range was normal. Projectile short range was weaker, but long range was normal. Now hybrids have normal long range and normal short, but projectiles still have weaker short. I don't think its fair. Projectile advantage is supposed to be changing damage types - what is the point when your ammo is weaker? It just negates the advantage, it means you have to switch ammo just to equal everyone else. Plus, it modifies your range, missiles are much better for choosing dmg types. Erm... Nuclear Ammo (40% range bonus) is now more damaging (28) than the Tungsten Hybrid equivalent (24). Carbonised lead (60% range bonus)already did more damage (24) than Iron ammo (20) So it balances out... (\_/) (O.o) (> <) "That's no ordinary rabbit!...that's the most foul, cruel and bad-tempered rodent you ever set eyes on"
Selim	Posted - 2005.07.06 20:04:00 - [25] teehee my mistake
Meridius	Posted - 2005.07.06 20:30:00 - [26] Originally by: Selim lasers same as hybrids. No not quite, radio does 1 dmg type while iron does 2. Radio sucks. ________________________________________________________
Sally	Posted - 2005.07.06 20:44:00 - [27] Edited by: Sally on 06/07/2005 20:47:14 Originally by: Gabriel Karade Erm... Nuclear Ammo (40% range bonus) is now more damaging (28) than the Tungsten Hybrid equivalent (24). Carbonised lead (60% range bonus)already did more damage (24) than Iron ammo (20) So it balances out... I already said why it doesnt work that way. Projectiles have the lowest optimal from all turrets, so at equal ranges they should either use less damaging ammo or shot at fallof. If you choose to shot at falloff you lose even more damage than you gain from that extra 4 damage difference. And btw, Apoc with Tachs got almost as high bust damage as Tempest. Certainly enouth for 1-volley kills. With roughtly 50% higher tracking and 15% higher optimal. But the most surprising thing for me is a mentioned "Some medium and large projectile ammunition had incorrect damage values. They now deal damage as they were intended". - I can clearly remember developers have specificaly changed EMP, PP and Fusion ammo so they deal some damage. That was a part of projectile "boost" and was diskussed to death back then. In NO way it was unintended - unless at least half of developers possesed by a shisofrenia. -- Stories: #1 --
Gabriel Karade	Posted - 2005.07.06 20:48:00 - [28] Edited by: Gabriel Karade on 06/07/2005 20:48:51 Originally by: Sally Originally by: Gabriel Karade Erm... Nuclear Ammo (40% range bonus) is now more damaging (28) than the Tungsten Hybrid equivalent (24). Carbonised lead (60% range bonus)already did more damage (24) than Iron ammo (20) So it balances out... I already said why it doesnt work that way. Projectiles have the lowest optimal from all turrets, so at equal ranges they should either use less damaging ammo or shot at fallof. If you choose to shot at falloff you lose even more damage than you gain from that extra 4 damage difference. And btw, Apoc with Tachs got almost as high bust damage as Tempest. Certainly enouth for 1-volley kills. With roughtly 50% higher tracking and 15% higher optimal. But the most surprising thing for me is a mentioned "Some medium and large projectile ammunition had incorrect damage values. They now deal damage as they were intended". - I can clearly remember developers have specificaly changed EMP, PP and Fusion ammo so they deal some damage. That was a part of projectile "boost" and was diskussed to death back then. In NO way it was unintended. And this justifies ignoring a 16.7% increase in damage...how? Your crying 'nerf' while ignoring the boost... (\_/) (O.o) (> <) "That's no ordinary rabbit!...that's the most foul, cruel and bad-tempered rodent you ever set eyes on"
Meridius	Posted - 2005.07.06 20:51:00 - [29] Originally by: Sally They now deal damage as they were intended". - I can clearly remember developers have specificaly changed EMP, PP and Fusion ammo so they deal some damage. That was a part of projectile "boost" and was diskussed to death back then. In NO way it was unintended - unless at least half of developers possesed by a shisofrenia. You remember wrong. Phased Plasma and Fusion were set for 44 damage, however, the range penalties were the same as EMP, -50%. The problem they fixed was that PP and Fusion did the same damage as EMP just at -37.5% and -25% ranges. ________________________________________________________
Meridius	Posted - 2005.07.06 20:52:00 - [30] Originally by: Meridius Originally by: Sally They now deal damage as they were intended". - I can clearly remember developers have specificaly changed EMP, PP and Fusion ammo so they deal some damage. That was a part of projectile "boost" and was diskussed to death back then. In NO way it was unintended - unless at least half of developers possesed by a shisofrenia. You remember wrong. Phased Plasma and Fusion were set for 44 damage, however, the range penalties were the same as EMP, -50%. The problem they fixed was that PP and Fusion did the same damage as EMP just at -37.5% and -25% ranges. btw, the whole having 3 -50% ammos wasn't an idea that many people liked (due to lack of range options) so it was canned. ________________________________________________________

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