Because all I see are complaints.

I would of thought the developers would of received overwhelming data and feedback from players before making such a change since it affects such a large amount of the player base but the majority of the threads are wanting a rollback until it's fixed.

It's like a select few of you have this opinion on what EVE PVE should be and screw everyone else who thinks otherwise. You want it to be more like PVP but if people wanted that then...wouldn't they go and just PVP? Why are you forcing these changes when all the threads on the matter say no thank you.

Not only that but it's broken. I mean it's doable but it's a teeth pulling experience. EWAR is out of hand and flying a drone boat is just a hassle, you basically have to babysit your drones and even then they have a tendency to pop faster that you can recall.

So I ask you: Why the drastic changes and why change it like this? Where did you get your data from that this would be the best way? Why have you re-balanced NPC AI without the rest of the PVE changes that it was obviously intended for?

*Puts flame retardant suit on*

There has been no significant changes since you started playing.
What changes has there been for you?

Have you not noticed some of the insane EWAR against certain factions? Like 15+ ships sensor dampening you or perma jamming? Quite a few including myself have.

People dont like changes because they have to pay attention and it now takes slightly more effort to grind the isk! Had they dumbed the AI down to make it easier people would have complained as well.

Players like to moan, nothing they could do would please everyone. I for one am happy with the changes after the fixed the insane aggro against drones (which they admitted)

Again no one is complaining about difficulty. This is an issue of introducing half of the "rebalance of PVE" without the other.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2462718#post2462718

They go on to say:

"Reducing NPC numbers also allows us to better scale EW player faces on a regular basis (mainly, we are referring to missions like the Blockade here). Assigning strong EW effects to few NPCs is fine, but it becomes horribly frustrating when faced with 5 full waves of NPCs sensor dampening you, as there is little the player can do to counter it. We should be relying on gameplay players can overcome if they are smart instead of brute force mechanics."

So we got the smarter AI and too many ships with EWAR. Why not wait until the whole thing is done?

I'm not complaining about difficulty.

I dunno, it sounds like you're complaining about difficulty to me.

I dunno, it sounds like you're complaining about difficulty to me.

Concerning drones, it's beyond difficulty. 100% chance of death for them. That's an issue.

Because all I see are complaints.

If you lose 100% of your drones you are doing it wrong! I will lose on average 2-3 small drones per day (that could be up to 6 hours running mission) Larger drones are more at Risk but you if you take out all the cruisers with guns and set the heavies on the BS you are generally ok. I tend to loose a few more of them per day than the smaller drones, but mainly thats due to lack of attention

Obviously you have not done Level IV missions lately.

Battleships alone on a field will now target and destroy your Large Drones now long before they can get back to their bay.

Eliminating frigs and cruisers stops nothing.

I run missions most week nights, always level 4s as well, it is not an issue i have noticed at all they may get targeted and even hit a few times while MWDing towards a target but once in orbit they never have issues. Perhaps increase your drone skills (durability and interfacing iirc) to make them last longer and hit harder.

There are also ways to further reduce the chance that your drones are shot as well.

Because all I see are complaints.

I would of thought the developers would of received overwhelming data and feedback from players before making such a change since it affects such a large amount of the player base but the majority of the threads are wanting a rollback until it's fixed.

It's like a select few of you have this opinion on what EVE PVE should be and screw everyone else who thinks otherwise. You want it to be more like PVP but if people wanted that then...wouldn't they go and just PVP? Why are you forcing these changes when all the threads on the matter say no thank you.

Not only that but it's broken. I mean it's doable but it's a teeth pulling experience. EWAR is out of hand and flying a drone boat is just a hassle, you basically have to babysit your drones and even then they have a tendency to pop faster that you can recall.

So I ask you: Why the drastic changes and why change it like this? Where did you get your data from that this would be the best way? Why have you re-balanced NPC AI without the rest of the PVE changes that it was obviously intended for?

*Puts flame retardant suit on*

Again no one is complaining about difficulty. This is an issue of introducing half of the "rebalance of PVE" without the other.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2462718#post2462718

They go on to say:

"Reducing NPC numbers also allows us to better scale EW player faces on a regular basis (mainly, we are referring to missions like the Blockade here). Assigning strong EW effects to few NPCs is fine, but it becomes horribly frustrating when faced with 5 full waves of NPCs sensor dampening you, as there is little the player can do to counter it. We should be relying on gameplay players can overcome if they are smart instead of brute force mechanics."

So we got the smarter AI and too many ships with EWAR. Why not wait until the whole thing is done?

Because all I see are complaints.

I would of thought the developers would of received overwhelming data and feedback from players before making such a change since it affects such a large amount of the player base but the majority of the threads are wanting a rollback until it's fixed.

It's like a select few of you have this opinion on what EVE PVE should be and screw everyone else who thinks otherwise. You want it to be more like PVP but if people wanted that then...wouldn't they go and just PVP? Why are you forcing these changes when all the threads on the matter say no thank you.

Not only that but it's broken. I mean it's doable but it's a teeth pulling experience. EWAR is out of hand and flying a drone boat is just a hassle, you basically have to babysit your drones and even then they have a tendency to pop faster that you can recall.

So I ask you: Why the drastic changes and why change it like this? Where did you get your data from that this would be the best way? Why have you re-balanced NPC AI without the rest of the PVE changes that it was obviously intended for?

*Puts flame retardant suit on*

Frankly about time the NPCs stopped acting like clay pigeons.

Yes you have to actually be at your computer now to make piles of isk, Oh the Horror

They got the idea for 2+ years of it working wonderfully in wormholes and also from the fact that there basically wasn't any "intelligence" at ALL in the old AI.

Sorry if you can only deal with utterly terrible braindead npcs and very slightly harder ones make you upset :(

From what I can tell, the new AI is much better for some droneboats than the old one. Try using sentries instead of heavies, So far I have only noticed the elite cruisers occasionally shooting them, and they have enough hp to last quite well.

The only downside to the new AI that I see is that it is much more difficult to bring newbs into your missions, as they will be shot a lot more than they used to.

I personally don't really care about the AI change, as it doesn't really affect how rattlesnakes work...

That's simply not true at all. The change makes AFK mssionins and such EASIER. Before I had to put medium remote reps on a permatank Domi (5 of them, one for each drone) to AFK a mission.

Not I just use a single ECM burst to keep aggro plus a single small remote rep orr nos (directed at a targeted drone) to keep full grid aggro on the domi. Haven't lost a sentry drone in weeks while still not sitting at the computer.

That sounds more like the AI needs a tweek in relation to sentries, than anything else.

@Whitehound - Have you not noticed some of the insane EWAR against certain factions? Like 15+ ships sensor dampening you or perma jamming? Quite a few including myself have.

That's simply not true at all. The change makes AFK mssionins and such EASIER. Before I had to put medium remote reps on a permatank Domi (5 of them, one for each drone) to AFK a mission.

Not I just use a single ECM burst to keep aggro plus a single small remote rep orr nos (directed at a targeted drone) to keep full grid aggro on the domi. Haven't lost a sentry drone in weeks while still not sitting at the computer.

Large Drones WILL die now without fail. Useless utterly.

This was not a well thought out change at all.

Obviously you have not done Level IV missions lately.

Battleships alone on a field will now target and destroy your Large Drones now long before they can get back to their bay.

Eliminating frigs and cruisers stops nothing.

Edit: and with full attention onscreen. What a stupid, snarky thing to inject into your post.

It's like a select few of you have this opinion on what EVE PVE should be and screw everyone else who thinks otherwise. You want it to be more like PVP but if people wanted that then...wouldn't they go and just PVP? Why are you forcing these changes when all the threads on the matter say no thank you.

Not only that but it's broken. I mean it's doable but it's a teeth pulling experience. EWAR is out of hand and flying a drone boat is just a hassle, you basically have to babysit your drones and even then they have a tendency to pop faster that you can recall.

* Fits cloaky

You mission where, exactly?

People are whining because they are used to playing in a specific way and its a bother to them to change.
Maybe CCP wants to move missions away from mind-dumbing gameplay to something more fun

Large drones were inappropriate tools for most L4 missions before the AI change, as they take too long to move between targets, and in many missions required careful aggro management anyway as they would go for spawn triggers and pull in remote groups that were outside range for your main ship.

Now they are worse, and you're complaining instead of using a more appropriate tool?

The rules change, learn to adapt.

And just what is your recommendation ?

Because all I see are complaints.

I agree

I'll also add that NPCs should only exist as a stepping stone to shooting PCs. Feel free to spend all day not progressing, but don't whine when the bar gets pumped up 1 notch.

NPCs exist as a source of income.

Because all I see are complaints.

Mission runners are like miners, they have trouble adapting to change.

My biggest issue is the follow :

The majority of 0.0 dwellers are making their ISK from ratting in anomalies. Anoms as you know, have several waves of rats, and have a fairly large amount of them in the higher level anoms. Pre-Retribution I used to be able to go in and either kill or spar with said ratter/anom killer in a nano ship. Post-Retribution that is no longer possible.

On every occasion, when I enter an anom and tackle the Raven/Mach/Tengu/Ishtar (whatever it is) the rats switch and ALL shoot me. So basically this carebear, is even more risk free then before because he/she has the entire anom working against me. I can't kill anything that is in an anom on my own unless I bring some kind of shield boosting / armor repping setup which in most cases is too slow to sneak through the gauntlet that is a jump bridge network ready to pounce and camp in a solo PVPer like myself.

Please revert back to the old NPC AI for the sake of PVP as well.

@Spurty - I'm not complaining about difficulty. You obviously have reading comprehension issues if you think so and I personally have a friend who teaches remedial English if you're interested! PM me for details.

And just what is your recommendation ?

[quote=Spurty]EVE is many things.

Easy isn't one of them./quote]

Unless you are a miner....or a suicide ganker.

Large Drones WILL die now without fail. Useless utterly.

This was not a well thought out change at all.

[quote=Spurty]EVE is many things.

Easy isn't one of them./quote]

Unless you are a miner....or a suicide ganker.

Could not disagree more. I rat and mish in an ishtar and rattlesnake exclusively and with a few very very minor adjustments in tactics I have 0 issues using heavy, or frankly, any drones. My efficiency has not suffered in the slightest.

Think I've lost maybe 3 drones since the ai change. Maybe stop bot and afk farming? (not neccessarily directed at you Krixtal)

I for one welcome our new NPC AI overlords.

Regards,

People are whining because they are used to playing in a specific way and its a bother to them to change.
Maybe CCP wants to move missions away from mind-dumbing gameplay to something more fun

I've had the opposite experience, heavies taking immediate aggro and dropping shields just after being told to engage and before reaching a target < 8km away. Also using a Rattlesnake. I would suppose I have also technically suffered an efficiency loss for every recall that resulted from rats switching aggro. Never was to into measuring mission times though so I can't quantify it.

Edit: Not to say drones are terrible or unusable, but i don't trust heavies in space outside of 10km anymore AND having only a small number of rats on the field.

this ....

#3Posted: 2013.01.25 12:02 | Edited by: Whitehound

The only mistake I personally see is with drones and that CCP should have given us a better interface to control drones before making NPCs smarter. It is frankly a pain in the arse having to control individual drones over a menu with 10-15 entries where I spend half the time just trying to find the right entry. Modules on the other hand can be activated individually over the keyboard and allow to be rearranged to make it even easier. It is quite a difference!

I do like to use drones and I don't mind NPCs being smarter, but the interface is beginning to suck hard on my nerves.


Most times it 'appears' CCP takes a lazy approach to changes ; making an adjustment to one thing while seemly, not considering some unintended consequences.
Lack of forethought is commonly seen in alot of government initiatives and where a good idea is poorly initiated. And like a lot of governments CCP does take too well to admitting missteps.

Tried to do a mission recently, realized missions have disappeared replaced by drone babysitting. Launch drones, recall immediatly due to fact that every npc locked the exact same drone and insta popped it before i could even tell it was being targetted, wait to be retargetted as prime, relaunch drones, wait 30 seconds, recall drones since they were targetted again, wait to be retargetted as prime, relaunch drones, wait 30 seconds, recall drones since they were targetted again, wait to be retargetted as prime, relaunch drones, wait 30 seconds, recall drones since they were targetted again, wait to be retargetted as prime, relaunch drones, wait 30 seconds, recall drones since they were targetted again, wait to be retargetted as prime, relaunch drones, wait 30 seconds, recall drones since they were targetted again, wait to be retargetted as prime, relaunch drones, wait 30 seconds, recall drones since they were targetted again, wait to be retargetted as prime, relaunch drones, wait 30 seconds, recall drones since they were targetted again, wait to be retargetted as prime, relaunch drones, wait 30 seconds, recall drones since they were targetted again, wait to be retargetted as prime, relaunch drones, wait 30 seconds, recall drones since they were targetted again, wait to be retargetted as prime, relaunch drones, wait 30 seconds, recall drones since they were targetted again, wait to be retargetted as prime, relaunch drones, wait 30 seconds, recall drones since they were targetted again, wait to be retargetted as prime, relaunch drones, wait 30 seconds, recall drones since they were targetted again, wait to be retargetted as prime, relaunch drones, wait 30 seconds, recall drones since they were targetted again, wait to be retargetted as prime, relaunch drones, wait 30 seconds, recall drones since they were targetted again, wait to be retargetted as prime, relaunch drones, wait 30 seconds, recall drones since they were targetted again, wait to be retargetted as prime, relaunch drones, wait 30 seconds, recall drones since they were targetted again, wait to be retargetted as prime, relaunch drones, wait 30 seconds, recall drones since they were targetted again, wait to be retargetted as prime, relaunch drones, wait 30 seconds, recall drones since they were targetted again. Finally realize a whole style of game play has been eliminated, removing kiting for noobs, and relying on drones when you are jammed by 10-15 ships. Drones went from being weak to being completely broken. We should at least have gotten some drone controls to go along with the change, drone targetted alerts, auto dock when target, attack closest to farthest, smallest to largest.

Finally realize a whole style of game play has been eliminated

AFK isk grinding was never a style of play since you can't play if you're AFK. CCP have now made it so you can't profit from not playing.

well, if we are being honest, wouldnt the whole rat fleet run like hell, warp out, anytime my navy BS showed up??

why stick around at all? it was always kinda weird that NPCs would ignore my drones and attack my super armored Domi

It has been quite some time since I've run any agent missions, but I hear the changes brought k-space NPCs more in line with the Sleeper AI from W-space. If that's true, welcome to our world.

If NPCs are decimating your drones, perhaps it is because you are trying to afk or solo missions like you used to. The Sleeper AI has a greatly reduced chance to target drones when other players are present and a very high chance when you are alone. Perhaps you should play with others, since this is an MMO and all, and be attentive at the computer while doing so. There are also ways to further reduce the chance that your drones are shot as well.

(ECCM is also reported to work against jamming. Just a rumour, though, y'know)

Large Drones WILL die now without fail. Useless utterly.

This was not a well thought out change at all.

So you're saying instead of all drones being viable, only sentry are now? Is this an improvement for you?

This is not the point of this thread and I am pretty sure not the reason for the changes.

Perhaps not the intent of the thread, but that is the message. Scores of former AFK drone-boat mission runners upset that they can no longer generate isk by not playing.

Not only that but it's broken. I mean it's doable but it's a teeth pulling experience. EWAR is out of hand and flying a drone boat is just a hassle, you basically have to babysit your drones and even then they have a tendency to pop faster that you can recall.

So you're saying instead of all drones being viable, only sentry are now? Is this an improvement for you?

I betcha never did the guristas Assault in a Marauder and triggered the whole room justfor fun. xD

An observation: I have never been jammed in Guristas assault since certain after-Retribution patch. I even stopped bothering with ECCM. It's like jammers have gone entirely...

Concerning drones, it's beyond difficulty. 100% chance of death for them. That's an issue.

My alt uses a drone boat for PvE... I have no problems with it.
The moment the rats' targetting box goes from red to yellow: recall > wait 2 seconds > redeploy

Sounds like the OP is a whiner and should go back to WoW

@Spurty - I'm not complaining about difficulty. You obviously have reading comprehension issues if you think so and I personally have a friend who teaches remedial English if you're interested! PM me for details.

@Ildryn - I've noticed some of your recent posts are very much the same so I'll do what others do and ignore anything you have to say from now on ;)

@Whitehound - Have you not noticed some of the insane EWAR against certain factions? Like 15+ ships sensor dampening you or perma jamming? Quite a few including myself have.

It's like a select few of you have this opinion on what EVE PVE should be and screw everyone else who thinks otherwise.

Because all I see are complaints.

I would of thought the developers would of received overwhelming data and feedback from players before making such a change since it affects such a large amount of the player base but the majority of the threads are wanting a rollback until it's fixed.

It's like a select few of you have this opinion on what EVE PVE should be and screw everyone else who thinks otherwise. You want it to be more like PVP but if people wanted that then...wouldn't they go and just PVP? Why are you forcing these changes when all the threads on the matter say no thank you.

Not only that but it's broken. I mean it's doable but it's a teeth pulling experience. EWAR is out of hand and flying a drone boat is just a hassle, you basically have to babysit your drones and even then they have a tendency to pop faster that you can recall.

So I ask you: Why the drastic changes and why change it like this? Where did you get your data from that this would be the best way? Why have you re-balanced NPC AI without the rest of the PVE changes that it was obviously intended for?

*Puts flame retardant suit on*

Half of the PVE rebalance was introduced (the AI) but the other wasn't (the mission overhaul).

State War Academy
Caldari State

CCP have now made it so you can't profit from not playing.

Stopped reading.

And I'm still waiting for someone to say "drones aren't broken" who doesn't immediately follow it up with "My Dominix and sentries..."

(Which, ironically, was the combo used by all of the alleged AFKers in the first place)

Gotta be one of the most immature things I have come across in EVE. Funny though, I assumed the average EVE Online player was better than this.

Oh well! Take care, friend.

Edit: Thanks for the bump :)

Maybe I would read your posts if you made them with an actual character.

So.. You liked it better when all NPCs were dumb idiots you could effortlessly dispatch while you grind lvl4s for the 3 hour in a row.
.

I run missions most week nights, always level 4s as well, it is not an issue i have noticed at all they may get targeted and even hit a few times while MWDing towards a target but once in orbit they never have issues. Perhaps increase your drone skills (durability and interfacing iirc) to make them last longer and hit harder.

NPC AI is blech.

Does this make sense? I land in a pocket with a Myrmidon happily blazing away at the NPC's, and even though I am not even targetting the NPC's they switch aggro to me. Hrmmm...isn't that other ship blapping your buddies more of a concern, over the guy who isn't even targetting you? WTF...

And it gets better, the NPC's don't aggro me...no, they aggro my f#$ing *salvage drones*. Gosh yes, that Mrym thats been vaporizing your buds is of no consequence, there are SALVAGE DRONES ON THE FIELD!!!!

F#$)#*($#

NPC AI is blech.

Does this make sense? I land in a pocket with a Myrmidon happily blazing away at the NPC's, and even though I am not even targetting the NPC's they switch aggro to me. Hrmmm...isn't that other ship blapping your buddies more of a concern, over the guy who isn't even targetting you? WTF...

It's like a select few of you have this opinion on what EVE PVE should be and screw everyone else who thinks otherwise. You want it to be more like PVP but if people wanted that then...wouldn't they go and just PVP? Why are you forcing these changes when all the threads on the matter say no thank you.

To the OP, in regard to your question work with an assertion and ask your self a few questions, and the answer about why this disaster was implemented becomes self evident.

1. If we consider PvE income as variable revenue source, and coupled with static revenue sources, they form the entire basis of all revenue sources in the game.
2. What happens to the value of a static revenue source as a tool / weapon / instrument of power when variable revenue drops and static revenue becomes a larger piece of the whole income pie?
3. Who controls the largest sources of static revenue in the game?
4. What areas of the game were most of the game designers recruited from?

5. Where is my tinfoil hat.

NPC AI is blech.

Does this make sense? I land in a pocket with a Myrmidon happily blazing away at the NPC's, and even though I am not even targetting the NPC's they switch aggro to me. Hrmmm...isn't that other ship blapping your buddies more of a concern, over the guy who isn't even targetting you? WTF...

And it gets better, the NPC's don't aggro me...no, they aggro my f#$ing *salvage drones*. Gosh yes, that Mrym thats been vaporizing your buds is of no consequence, there are SALVAGE DRONES ON THE FIELD!!!!

F#$)#*($#