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Avalon Beholder	Posted - 2005.07.06 10:04:00 - [1] To get back to pre patch Damage over time will take approx 12 hours (Rapid launching 3 and Warhead upgrades 2). To double your damage against frigs will take approx another 12 hours (Guided Missile precision 3 and Target Navigation prediction 2) To Double your range will take another 12 hours (Missile Bombardment 3, Missile Projection 2). So in 36 hours (of which 12 is already done) you can get back to seriously wtfpwning. JUST THIRTY SIX HOURS TO BASICALLY DOUBLE YOUR EFFECTIVENESS. After that, all further training makes you BETTER than pre-patch. So please a little less of this "OMG I have to spend 1 month and ill still be lame" rubbish.
The Hellion	Posted - 2005.07.06 10:09:00 - [2] reading that made me happy inside, coz i cant stand the people exaggerating their whinage about the missiles.
Tawl	Posted - 2005.07.06 10:11:00 - [3] HERE HERE!
Gamer4liff	Posted - 2005.07.06 10:12:00 - [4] in before lock and flamebait comment.
Jasmine Constantine	Posted - 2005.07.06 10:14:00 - [5] Congratulations on a concise and informative post. "Every act of creation is first an act of destruction."
Monty Burns	Posted - 2005.07.06 10:19:00 - [6] Good stuff! Lets keep this near the top of the foums so more people can read it before getting all upset and tears flow free... Darwin 4tw
Thor Darkwing	Posted - 2005.07.06 10:33:00 - [7] thanks
Rei Storm	Posted - 2005.07.06 10:37:00 - [8] Spot on! :D ----------------------------- I hate to advocate sex, drugs, alcohol, violence or insanity to anyone... But they've always works for me...
Erik Pathfinder	Posted - 2005.07.06 10:38:00 - [9] Exactly the thread that was needed. ------ (\_/) (O.o) (> <)
Derisor	Posted - 2005.07.06 10:41:00 - [10] And to kill frigs you merely have to install a few standard missile batteries instead of loading up on siege launchers across the board. Now missile users have the same decisions to make that guns users have had. Welcome to the world of decision making. --------- The words "Exciting" and "Safe" are mutually exclusive; pick one.
ErrorS	Posted - 2005.07.06 10:42:00 - [11] we'll still horribly suck against frigates even after maxing skills.. at the moment I'm taking my "pick up cargo" ship back to my mission point to finish off the frigs and pick up cargo. No big deal.. I couldn't hit the frigs with my 425s either. One thing that ****es me off is that drones die too easy.. and we don't get very much drone space. Frigs are the Raven's weakness moreso then any other ship in the game. I'll live, I still laid waste to all the cruisers on the map (a bit slower then before but I dont even have lv1 in all the skills yet) im pleased with the update. ________ I'm strict Caldari "The grass is always greener on the other side" - Maybe they're not as uber as you think? -ErrorS
ErrorS	Posted - 2005.07.06 10:43:00 - [12] Originally by: Derisor And to kill frigs you merely have to install a few standard missile batteries instead of loading up on siege launchers across the board. Now missile users have the same decisions to make that guns users have had. Welcome to the world of decision making. we get 6 launcher hardpoints at most.. 4 for the scorp you expect us to run 4 siege launchers and 2 standard launchers? or how about the scorp, yeah that will be awesome.. 2 siege launchers and 2 standard launchers. Cmon now, exception being the tempest we have the least primary weapon hardpoints in the game for our battleships.. ________ I'm strict Caldari "The grass is always greener on the other side" - Maybe they're not as uber as you think? -ErrorS
Derisor	Posted - 2005.07.06 10:47:00 - [13] Originally by: ErrorS Originally by: Derisor And to kill frigs you merely have to install a few standard missile batteries instead of loading up on siege launchers across the board. Now missile users have the same decisions to make that guns users have had. Welcome to the world of decision making. we get 6 launcher hardpoints at most.. 4 for the scorp you expect us to run 4 siege launchers and 2 standard launchers? or how about the scorp, yeah that will be awesome.. 2 siege launchers and 2 standard launchers. Cmon now, exception being the tempest we have the least primary weapon hardpoints in the game for our battleships.. Guns users have been making these decisions for months. They either need to dimish anti-bs firepower and kill frigs or go anti-frig totally or anti-bs totally. Its been that way for a long time with guns users. Now missile users have the same decisions to make. "Do I swap out a siege for a standard to kill frigs or do I go totally anti-bs" Gone are the days of raven pilots roaming and popping everything in sight with 0 effort or thoght involved. TOugh luck for you. Better luck for the game. --------- The words "Exciting" and "Safe" are mutually exclusive; pick one.
BigBadToughGuy	Posted - 2005.07.06 10:49:00 - [14] Pre-patch I could kill frigates with a 425mm if I kept them past 75km, inside of that and it's only a lucky hit. Warp in, turn around and MWD away to open the distance, kill the frigates, then cruisers and then focus on the battleships. Haven't tried it yet after the patch,maybe it still works?
dreptu	Posted - 2005.07.06 10:50:00 - [15] Guided Missile precision will be only on f.o.f. missile not on torps ! :)) but i dont mind :)) i think is a good patch will take some time to recover but after that raven will rulz again pve
Derisor	Posted - 2005.07.06 11:01:00 - [16] Originally by: dreptu Guided Missile precision will be only on f.o.f. missile not on torps ! :)) but i dont mind :)) i think is a good patch will take some time to recover but after that raven will rulz again pve I think the tables are finally balanced and its a good thing. What will really suffer are forms of ganking piracy and they should suffer. --------- The words "Exciting" and "Safe" are mutually exclusive; pick one.
Sergeant Spot	Posted - 2005.07.06 11:11:00 - [17] I'm withholding judgement until I get a chance to test things. I'm expecting (but not assuming) that light missiles with good skills will let me fight frigs and interceptors effectively after skills are at levels 4 or 5. If not, then they need an additional buff (I should not have to fit a webber or painter unless I keep using Cruise missiles).
Duke Droklar	Posted - 2005.07.06 11:14:00 - [18] Seems to me that signature focusing and a good target painter should nearly eliminate a frigs low sig benefit and if you throw in a couple Large Nos, you'll have frigs dead in the water reducing or eliminating the speed benefit. Combine that with lvl4 in the new missile skills and some drones and I doubt frigs (in reasonable numbers) will be that much of a threat in PvP. Also, lets not forget that the wise fleet commander uses a mixed fleet with specialist roles... like "FRIG KILLERS".
Korben Morat	Posted - 2005.07.06 11:25:00 - [19] Well I for one quite like the changes, even though I'm a raven pilot. Now last night when i first logged in I was a bit annoyed at being useless for the next month but I went and trained a few of the new skills and decided to have some fun with 6 assault launchers on my raven against belt rats. Let me just say, Best. Fun. Ever. I totally murdered the frigs in seconds and the ROF was unbelievable (something like 3-4 seconds iirc). Now that I know that the new skills make a huge difference, I'll have no problem getting them trained up. Then its time to experiment with a cruise / assault launcher setup. In the meantime its an 'ceptor or harpy for me, maybe even some mining THANKS CCP, Best Patch ever!!
ErrorS	Posted - 2005.07.06 11:46:00 - [20] Originally by: Derisor Originally by: ErrorS Originally by: Derisor And to kill frigs you merely have to install a few standard missile batteries instead of loading up on siege launchers across the board. Now missile users have the same decisions to make that guns users have had. Welcome to the world of decision making. we get 6 launcher hardpoints at most.. 4 for the scorp you expect us to run 4 siege launchers and 2 standard launchers? or how about the scorp, yeah that will be awesome.. 2 siege launchers and 2 standard launchers. Cmon now, exception being the tempest we have the least primary weapon hardpoints in the game for our battleships.. Guns users have been making these decisions for months. They either need to dimish anti-bs firepower and kill frigs or go anti-frig totally or anti-bs totally. Its been that way for a long time with guns users. Now missile users have the same decisions to make. "Do I swap out a siege for a standard to kill frigs or do I go totally anti-bs" Gone are the days of raven pilots roaming and popping everything in sight with 0 effort or thoght involved. TOugh luck for you. Better luck for the game. Ok, you don't get it. Raven has 6 primary weapon slots. How many does the mega have? apoc? the Scorpion has 4.. how many does the armageddon have? the dominix doesn't even count because of the drones.. The ships have at least one more then the raven for a primary class, enough for a single cruiser or frigate sized primary weapon Then there is the issue of using both missle and turrets. Two small turrets on a Raven just doesn't work. Missles are played A LOT different then turrets.. primary missle + secondary guns aren't very good. But like with my Ferox, Primary Guns + secondary missles work awesome. If you have trouble understanding this then.. well... my sister teaches kindergarten, maybe I could have her help me explain it to you. ________ I'm strict Caldari "The grass is always greener on the other side" - Maybe they're not as uber as you think? -ErrorS
Zaldiri	Posted - 2005.07.06 11:50:00 - [21] The temp only has 6, the dommy (which does count) only has 6. The mega and geddon on have 7 (oh one more bo hoo!!). I fact the only ship with 8 "primaries" is the Apocolypse.
Gigi Barbagrigia	Posted - 2005.07.06 11:52:00 - [22] OMG, you'll need a wingman. Outrageous! ----- 42
Derisor	Posted - 2005.07.06 11:59:00 - [23] Originally by: ErrorS Ok, you don't get it. Raven has 6 primary weapon slots. How many does the mega have? apoc? the Scorpion has 4.. how many does the armageddon have? the dominix doesn't even count because of the drones.. Slots are irrelevant in that you cant fit full slots with your best guns. You have just as many hardpoints as guns users, and you have more flexibility. A typhoon with 4 anti-BS launchers and 4 small guns would be a tough nut to *** for frig fleets and still effective in fleet combat. Also would a phoon with 4 medium noses. There are tradeoffs to every ship. Gallente ships have no missiles (mostly) but then they have lots of drone capability. Its a balancing act that you will now have to get used to. Originally by:** ErrorS The ships have at least one more then the raven for a primary class, enough for a single cruiser or frigate sized primary weapon Yes, and turrets cant fire from 200km out with the same damage as 60km out. Missiles can fire from much further out with the comparative damage of very short range antimater ammo, also with much less cap usage than antimatter. Nor can guns be used n fire and forget mode to spam anything that locks them. Nor can guns .... well ... I could go on but ive said it ten times. If you can adapt and you can think, there is no problem. The tables are now even and if you ask me (a cruiser frigate flyer that was sick of getting popped by torps) its about bloody time. Originally by: ErrorS Then there is the issue of using both missle and turrets. Two small turrets on a Raven just doesn't work. Missles are played A LOT different then turrets.. primary missle + secondary guns aren't very good. But like with my Ferox, Primary Guns + secondary missles work awesome. Why doesnt it work? You mount small guns to kill tacklers and frigates that get close. But at any rate you have to make a decision whether to balance anti-frig, mixed balance or anti-BS. Welcome to the real world of decision making. No longer does one setup kill all. Turret users have been making these decisions for ages, why cant you manage ? Originally by: ErrorS If you have trouble understanding this then.. well... my sister teaches kindergarten, maybe I could have her help me explain it to you. Pointless flame devoid of content. dismissive wave Stick to the facts instead of getting emotional. --------- The words "Exciting" and "Safe" are mutually exclusive; pick one.
Derisor	Posted - 2005.07.06 11:59:00 - [24] Originally by: Gigi Barbagrigia OMG, you'll need a wingman. Outrageous! Cant have teamwork now. --------- The words "Exciting" and "Safe" are mutually exclusive; pick one.
Jaraa	Posted - 2005.07.06 12:02:00 - [25] errorS.. If we're just talking about mission then theres a little thing called RE-FITTING. It means that you go in kill what you can with torps/cruise missiles then warp out and get assault luanchers or whatever. i dont expect thats too hard.
The Chef	Posted - 2005.07.06 12:02:00 - [26] Originally by: ErrorS we'll still horribly suck against frigates even after maxing skills.. How can you know that for sure? You could not possibly have done it already. Come back when you have and perhaps your claims will have more validity! ==================================== EVEkill Visit our homepage
EXZODIER	Posted - 2005.07.06 12:09:00 - [27] Ok - training the skills will help a bit - but even on the test server i was still doing less then 100 damage with torps on frigs with all the skills ar 4+ - how to fix the raven so it dosent become anouther scraped ship - 5 raven bpo on escrow some going for less then what they paid (now on market orginals less then 1 billion- looks like ccp relise its crap and droped the price) all they need to do is change the launchers back so u can change ammo typr so we can carry several diffrent types of ammo for diffrent size ships just limit the ammount we can load - so like 10 light missiles in a cruise - 15 in seige ect.... at the moment any 1 useing a raven will not be able to do agaent missions solo without haveing to dock to change launches 3-4 times they wont be able to NPC in low sec space they wont be able to PvP because they have little to no way of killing a ceptor or fast frig (i know this as i took down 3 ravens 1 after the outher onthe test server useing a crow and i could out tank there torps So ccp please either come up with some new way to help us people who have trained up millions of missile points - or just make it so we can load diffrent ammo in our launcher
Baytt	Posted - 2005.07.06 12:14:00 - [28] how about use cruise missiles now, and a target painter, and maybe take a friend along with u since lvl4 arent meant to be solo activitys
Eyeshadow	Posted - 2005.07.06 12:25:00 - [29] Originally by: EXZODIER Ok - training the skills will help a bit - but even on the test server i was still doing less then 100 damage with torps on frigs with all the skills ar 4+ - how to fix the raven so it dosent become anouther scraped ship - 5 raven bpo on escrow some going for less then what they paid (now on market orginals less then 1 billion- looks like ccp relise its crap and droped the price) all they need to do is change the launchers back so u can change ammo typr so we can carry several diffrent types of ammo for diffrent size ships just limit the ammount we can load - so like 10 light missiles in a cruise - 15 in seige ect.... at the moment any 1 useing a raven will not be able to do agaent missions solo without haveing to dock to change launches 3-4 times they wont be able to NPC in low sec space they wont be able to PvP because they have little to no way of killing a ceptor or fast frig (i know this as i took down 3 ravens 1 after the outher onthe test server useing a crow and i could out tank there torps So ccp please either come up with some new way to help us people who have trained up millions of missile points - or just make it so we can load diffrent ammo in our launcher w00t u just basically summed up WHY missiles were rebalanced NO WAY EVER EVER should be able to fit 1 launcher and be able to swop the ammo to suit ur targets. This is liking asking for mega pulse to be able to fit multifrequency S and become a medium pulse laser. retarded in the extreme. Seriously, just think about it. This is one of the reasons missiles where changed, cos BS sized weapons would wtfpwn smaller classes. Being able to load smaller ammo will just put it back to how it used to be As for soloing lvl4s. Thank god ravens cant solo lvl4s anymore (or have a harder time doing them). For far too long have people farmed the crap outta lvl4s and become billionaires by basically doing nothing. LVL4s in a raven were retardedly easy to do Missiles needed balancing, they got it. And in a good way. BUT, in no way was this a nerf, it was a rebalance to bring them inline with turret users Forums: Sharks * MC
Jaraa	Posted - 2005.07.06 13:39:00 - [30] Originally by: Eyeshadow w00t u just basically summed up WHY missiles were rebalanced NO WAY EVER EVER should be able to fit 1 launcher and be able to swop the ammo to suit ur targets. This is liking asking for mega pulse to be able to fit multifrequency S and become a medium pulse laser. retarded in the extreme. Seriously, just think about it. This is one of the reasons missiles where changed, cos BS sized weapons would wtfpwn smaller classes. Being able to load smaller ammo will just put it back to how it used to be As for soloing lvl4s. Thank god ravens cant solo lvl4s anymore (or have a harder time doing them). For far too long have people farmed the crap outta lvl4s and become billionaires by basically doing nothing. LVL4s in a raven were retardedly easy to do Missiles needed balancing, they got it. And in a good way. BUT, in no way was this a nerf, it was a rebalance to bring them inline with turret users im with you all the way. All ships should have their strenght. Frigs were made for a reason and here you have it.

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