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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 4 post(s) |
AskariRising
8th Day
4
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Posted - 2013.02.10 06:15:00 -
[211] - Quote
Ong wrote:
high five Greyscale high five
i wanna high five his face
p.s. dont ban me bro |
Tolkenmoon
Vulkan Innovations Hegemonous Pandorum
18
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Posted - 2013.02.10 11:09:00 -
[212] - Quote
I never thought this would get so long a thread, and never though ccp would push something like this which really is a mistake through.
All i seem to see lately is change for the sake of change its as if the new devs are trying to justify there jobs by altering so much. The passive shield resist bonus has been around for years and because you the new devs don't like it you want to change it for no other reason than YOU want to! and sod everyone else because you are always right, well you are WRONG so very wrong.
All i start to see you as are a joke and a stubborn company who don't listen to your players. |
Ty Delaney
Gambit Roulette
33
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Posted - 2013.02.10 15:56:00 -
[213] - Quote
Once again, Greyscale encounters complicated code and, rather than fix it, just removes it. |
Qaidan Alenko
State War Academy Caldari State
1700
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Posted - 2013.02.10 17:06:00 -
[214] - Quote
Does this mean my Compensation skills will now affect my Rigs? Go ahead,,,, Get your Wham on!!!
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Maximus Andendare
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
93
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Posted - 2013.02.10 17:44:00 -
[215] - Quote
Ong wrote:If your going to make this happen you really are going to have to introduce a passive shield mod similar to the EANM, no one uses the passive shield mods unless their trying for some permarun pve fit. In the words of you shield tankers when we asked for a similar ASB module for armor: "Shield tanking and armor tanking are different. That's what makes the game unique. Shield tanking and armor tanking aren't supposed to have the same modules."
And for everyone claiming that their skills are "useless" now, because you'll have a "0% resist hole", guess what! There are modules you can fit to your ship called Shield Amplifiers that will plug that resist hole without cap and takes advantage of your "useless" skills.
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General Escobar
BREAKING-POINT Primal Force
9
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Posted - 2013.02.10 17:54:00 -
[216] - Quote
I was just about to train that crap... good thing someone noticed as those skills are useless as useless can be now!! Minor change, laughable... |
Qaidan Alenko
State War Academy Caldari State
1700
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Posted - 2013.02.10 17:54:00 -
[217] - Quote
Maximus Andendare wrote: And for everyone claiming that their skills are "useless" now, because you'll have a "0% resist hole", guess what! There are modules you can fit to your ship called Shield Amplifiers that will plug that resist hole without cap and takes advantage of your "useless" skills.
... How DARE you suggest such a thing?!?!? ... Go ahead,,,, Get your Wham on!!!
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Falin Whalen
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
277
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Posted - 2013.02.10 18:06:00 -
[218] - Quote
Maximus Andendare wrote:And for everyone claiming that their skills are "useless" now, because you'll have a "0% resist hole", guess what! There are modules you can fit to your ship called Shield Amplifiers that will plug that resist hole without cap and takes advantage of your "useless" skills.
Don't tell them that. I wanted to see more impotent rage, wailing, weeping and gnashing of teeth. You've got to remember that these are just simple miners. These are people of the land. The common clay of New Eden. You know... morons. |
Arec Bardwin
895
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Posted - 2013.02.10 19:19:00 -
[219] - Quote
This change will significantly boost the efficiency rating of Greyscale's morning meetings, and I therefore wholeheartedly support it. |
Varesk
Origin. Black Legion.
294
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Posted - 2013.02.10 19:44:00 -
[220] - Quote
CCP Greyscale wrote:Zhilia Mann wrote:CCP Greyscale wrote:We discussed this again at our morning design meeting today, and we're still of the opinion that this is the correct change to make in this case. Obviously we're keeping an eye on this thread to make sure there isn't something we've missed, but as of today we're still comfortable with the consequences here.
To those asking about patch notes, here's the draft versions from a few weeks ago:
- Active armor hardeners and shield hardeners no longer give a passive resistance bonus when not active - Armor and shield compensation skills no longer give any bonus to active armor or shield hardeners
To those asking about reimbursement etc: we make balance changes on a fairly regular basis, and we're not generally in the habit of reimbursing skill points except in exceptional circumstances (which this isn't). Well, thanks for revisiting it. I have to grudgingly respect that CCP holds its ground; god knows that if players got everything they wanted then this wouldn't be a game I'd like to play. However, I'm still concerned about two things, and they're related. The first is that I don't understand the logic behind this change, and judging from this thread no one else does either. What exactly is your thinking and how does it override the points brought up here? The second thing remains the lack of transparency around the change. This really was going to stealth its way in. The fact that you planned to note it in the patch notes does nothing to mitigate the fact that we didn't know further ahead of time. Sharing your logic would be helpful on this front as well; sharing it proactively would have been vastly preferable. But we are where we are now and you can still help by actually illuminating how you're thinking about the problem. For the why, see my first post in this thread for the short version :) Essentially we came to the conclusion that 1) in the general case, all other things being equal and with caveats and get-outs as necessary, we prefer single-function modules to multi-function modules, and 2) in this specific case we strongly dislike the implementation and the presentation thereof. If this is unclear, please ask more questions, just don't expect the general thrust to change significantly! The reason I was happy to leave it to a patchnote was that I didn't feel it was that big a change, and that I felt "the case for the prosecution" was strong enough that extended discussion wouldn't serve much purpose. If I'm totally honest, I'll also admit that I'd forgotten this was going to SiSi this week, as I've had other projects on my mind
why not make the shield/armor comp skills apply to the base stats for the hull of the ship. doing this will give you the mods doing one thing and people would be happy about training for 2 months to get all the comps to V.
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La Nariz
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
726
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Posted - 2013.02.10 20:06:00 -
[221] - Quote
CCP Greyscale wrote:
- We're not, in general and with exceptions, fans of multi-function modules. EVE fitting is about trade-offs, not about having your cake and eating it. In this particular case, it was making the decision to take an active hardener over a passive one easier than it otherwise would be, which isn't a particularly good thing.
Can we apply this same philosophy to mining barges please? This post was loving crafted by a member of the Official GoonWaffe recruitment team. |
Ancy Denaries
Frontier Venture
170
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Posted - 2013.02.10 22:45:00 -
[222] - Quote
Maximus Andendare wrote:And for everyone claiming that their skills are "useless" now, because you'll have a "0% resist hole", guess what! There are modules you can fit to your ship called Shield Amplifiers that will plug that resist hole without cap and takes advantage of your "useless" skills.
Pff, don't try logic on the "waaaah" crowd. It doesn't work.
"Shoot at anything that moves. If it doesn't move, shoot it anyway, it might move later."
"Do not be too positive. The light at the end of the tunnel could be a train." - Franz Kafka |
Ancy Denaries
Frontier Venture
170
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Posted - 2013.02.10 22:46:00 -
[223] - Quote
Dex Tera wrote:**** u ccp roll it back along with the interdictor changes now or im unsubbing i haved enoughf of your bullshit stealth nerfs not be ing put in patch notes to say "sorry" is the shittest nsult u can say to us **** YOU CCP Your tears. Moar plz, they fuel my ship. "Shoot at anything that moves. If it doesn't move, shoot it anyway, it might move later."
"Do not be too positive. The light at the end of the tunnel could be a train." - Franz Kafka |
BobFromMarketing
ElitistOps Pandemic Legion
17
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Posted - 2013.02.10 23:38:00 -
[224] - Quote
Way to make that three months of training on multiple characters utterly worthless Greyscale. I continue to dislike you more than Dust or Incarna. |
Madlof Chev
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
112
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Posted - 2013.02.11 00:39:00 -
[225] - Quote
should probably have expected what was going to happen after seeing a greyscale post
shout some more edicts down from your high horse greyscale, m8 |
FluffyDice
Northstar Cabal Fatal Ascension
478
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Posted - 2013.02.11 01:48:00 -
[226] - Quote
Post massive game changes in this forum. Yep, definitely wanted for everyone to see it and give their feedback before implementation... |
Jonah Gravenstein
The Burning Lotus
5593
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Posted - 2013.02.11 03:03:00 -
[227] - Quote
Meh, those skills were a waste then. I exclusively fly shield tank for PvE, the passive resist bonus from inactive active resistance modules is currently quite handy. I tend to fit for the rats I'm shooting at, but having a 12% omni resist bonus (my comp skills are all at 4) from an inactive Invul is sometimes the difference between a survivable buffer and an explosion.
My PvE fits generally have only slightly more tank than required to get the job done, and as much gank as I can squeeze out of them. Losing the bonus and reworking my fits to maintain the same tank, will result in the loss of a damage module because I'll have to use an extra SPR or a PDU to compensate for the resistance loss by increasing the recharge rate. I don't like running over tanked ships, I much prefer to kill stuff faster than it can kill me, my in game friends are shocked that I can comfortably run 4's in a Drake with a sub 300 DPS tank and 500 DPS gank, yes I'm weird I run 4's in a much hated BC.
Thanks CCP Greyscale, next time you decide to screw shield tankers, at least kiss us first.
I am Ohm of Borg, Resistance is Voltage/Current. |
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
545
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Posted - 2013.02.11 11:46:00 -
[228] - Quote
BobFromMarketing wrote:Way to make that three months of training on multiple characters utterly worthless Greyscale. I continue to dislike you more than Dust or Incarna.
Why is it every change you bring to us seems like one of the worst ideas ever? Anomaly's being tied to truesec for example.
Perhaps you didn't think it's a big change because you don't play the game, and thus do not grasp how it works?
I can fly both armor and shield and still can't see the problem you guys are moaning about. No real numbers, just moaning.
Which one imho suffers the most from neuts?- Armor and I have yet to see someone telling me I'm wrong with other thing than regular EFT/Pyfa vomit. This change is good and as you guys can read it it's worth for SHIELD and ARMOR HARDENERS.
Now lets get back to our double XL-ASB Sleipnir bait some special nerds somewhere in new Eden...
Gò¡Gê¬Gò«n+ên+¦n++n+¦n+ëGò¡Gê¬Gò«-á don't haten++ |
RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
341
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Posted - 2013.02.11 15:37:00 -
[229] - Quote
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:BobFromMarketing wrote:Way to make that three months of training on multiple characters utterly worthless Greyscale. I continue to dislike you more than Dust or Incarna.
Why is it every change you bring to us seems like one of the worst ideas ever? Anomaly's being tied to truesec for example.
Perhaps you didn't think it's a big change because you don't play the game, and thus do not grasp how it works? I can fly both armor and shield and still can't see the problem you guys are moaning about. No real numbers, just moaning. Which one imho suffers the most from neuts?- Armor and I have yet to see someone telling me I'm wrong with other thing than regular EFT/Pyfa vomit. This change is good and as you guys can read it it's worth for SHIELD and ARMOR HARDENERS. Now lets get back to our double XL-ASB Sleipnir bait some special nerds somewhere in new Eden...
If you have to see numbers to know the problem... then you really are clueless about shield tank fits. If you need someone else to do math, then you have other issues.
Neuted out, most shield fits will have ZERO resist. Nada, 0, zip, nothing. Armor ships do not have a zero resist hole in their main defense mechanic. Right out of production they have a base advantage in coverage. 10 to 20%.
To counter this, you have to lose a slot or a rig spot now for EM specific protection. It is equivalent to a 20% nerf on slots, or a 33% nerf on rig space for those ships.
If you use a Damage control for the counter, it will most likely cause a loss of DPS overall, On ships that already have DPS issues historically. |
Shpenat
Pafos Technologies
35
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Posted - 2013.02.11 15:48:00 -
[230] - Quote
I think Greyscale used poor wording here. I bet what hi meant was to remove the modules that can be both active and passive.
generally:
- active modules do stuff when active and nothing when inactive.
- passive modules do stuff when fitted and cannot be activated
Active hardeners are different they do stuff both when active and when not active. It is like if warp disruptor would prevent warping of target ship when active and giving you +1 warp strength when not active.
For armor it also finally make sense to use RAH. As it was not affected by compensation skill bonus in any way.
Also I think Greyscale should have announced this change and not have it to be found on sisi by accident.
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Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
547
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Posted - 2013.02.11 15:52:00 -
[231] - Quote
RavenPaine wrote:Neuted out, most shield fits will have ZERO resist. Nada, 0, zip, nothing. Armor ships do not have a zero resist hole in their main defense mechanic.
Really?? -was this implemented last DT?
Please do yourself a favor, train those shield skills above lvl1 and if you get the courage to, do it also for armor skills.
Then tell us all how your armor ship does awesome dps once neuted and how much "most" shield fits as you say, have 0 resists. Just fit modules and train for those past lvl1 and you'll see it's quite awesome.
Gò¡Gê¬Gò«n+ên+¦n++n+¦n+ëGò¡Gê¬Gò«-á don't haten++ |
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
547
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Posted - 2013.02.11 16:00:00 -
[232] - Quote
RavenPaine wrote:To counter this, you have to lose a slot or a rig spot now for EM specific protection. It is equivalent to a 20% nerf on slots, or a 33% nerf on rig space for those ships.
If you use a Damage control for the counter, it will most likely cause a loss of DPS overall, On ships that already have DPS issues historically.
If you think for a second armor hardeners provide more protection you're wrong.
If you think for a second passive resists provide more protection you're wrong
If you think for a second armor ships don't loose as much useful slots for dps mods and rigs, you're wrong.
If you think a DCU in an armor ship is an option you're again very wrong.
Actually you're wrong all the line, ask this to everyone being able to properly fit armor/shield why they tend to shield tank their armor ships. In your expert opinion it's because those have natural higher resists in their shields too?
Gò¡Gê¬Gò«n+ên+¦n++n+¦n+ëGò¡Gê¬Gò«-á don't haten++ |
Sinzor Aumer
Atlas Research Group Aerodyne Collective
99
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Posted - 2013.02.11 17:52:00 -
[233] - Quote
Shpenat wrote:I think Greyscale used poor wording here. I bet what hi meant was to remove the modules that can be both active and passive. Maybe. Or maybe not. Who knows? I asked CCP comments on that - it never happened.
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Arduemont
Tempest Legion
1214
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Posted - 2013.02.11 20:14:00 -
[234] - Quote
Not very happy about this either. Not going to lie.
Those passive resistances have made the difference between life and death for me many many times in fights. Neuts come to mind mostly, but I have on occasion opted to turn off Invulns and Active hardeners so that I can hold onto my point for a little bit longer. That just wont be an option any more.
With the buf armour tanks will be receiving, I don't think its wise to be simultaneously nerffing shields, even in the smallest way. "In the age of information, ignorance is a choice." |
Besbin
Anguis Sicarios
24
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Posted - 2013.02.11 20:46:00 -
[235] - Quote
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:RavenPaine wrote:Neuted out, most shield fits will have ZERO resist. Nada, 0, zip, nothing. Armor ships do not have a zero resist hole in their main defense mechanic. Really?? -was this implemented last DT? Please do yourself a favor, train those shield skills above lvl1 and if you get the courage to, do it also for armor skills. Then tell us all how your armor ship does awesome dps once neuted and how much "most" shield fits as you say, have 0 resists. Just fit modules and train for those past lvl1 and you'll see it's quite awesome.
I wish I could understand what you were trying to say, so I could tell you how stupid that is. |
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
73
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Posted - 2013.02.11 23:42:00 -
[236] - Quote
I vote they make the compensation skills affect the base resists of the ships hull to make up for taking it out of the active hardeners.
Of course, you'd still have an issue with EM resist on shields, but nothing is perfect. |
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
555
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Posted - 2013.02.12 14:10:00 -
[237] - Quote
Besbin wrote:I wish I could understand what you were trying to say, so I could tell you how stupid that is.
You can't already understand this change is not worst for shields than for armor.
Leave it alone reading comprehension.
Gò¡Gê¬Gò«n+ên+¦n++n+¦n+ëGò¡Gê¬Gò«-á don't haten++ |
Ong
Born-2-Kill 0utNumbered
65
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Posted - 2013.02.12 15:23:00 -
[238] - Quote
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:Besbin wrote:I wish I could understand what you were trying to say, so I could tell you how stupid that is. You can't already understand this change is not worst for shields than for armor. Leave it alone reading comprehension.
Let me tell you about two modules the Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II and Adaptive Nano Plating II.
Every pvp armor ship as standard fits a DC, 1-2 of these modules and then 1-2 active hardeners to fill any resist holes depending on the ship. No matter how many neuts you have on you these modules will never turn off and always give you resists.
Lets use some examples here as your obviously having issues with understanding, lets take a myrmidon and a cyclone and assume that this is after the removal of skills effecting turned off hardeners.
A pretty standard fit for the myrms lows is 1 DC, 2 EANM's, 1 explosive hardener and 2 reps now assuming you get neuted out completely, even to the point where the DC is also tuned off, you will still have resists of: 70, 61, 61, 47, ie pretty freaking good still.
Now lets take the cyclone, again a pretty standard fit, a DC, MWD, scram, 1 boost amp, 1 ancillary shield booster, 1 invuln, again lets assume you are completely neuted out, you end up with resists of: 0, 20, 40, 50 even assuming you have an em and themal resist rigs you end up with resists of 30, 44, 40, 50.
Im going to use the first set of figures from the cyclone as we are not assuming rigs for either ship, lets put these together shall we:
Myrm: 70, 61, 61, 47
Cyclone: 0, 20, 40, 50
Do you see the issue where shield is far more effected then armor yet?
How about the fact that armor ships still have mids left to run 1 if not 2 cap boosters and thus make is even harder to completely neut out their hardeners.
Now combine this with armor ships having full tackle, and post armor buff also coming in the same patch, no speed side effects from their rigs, explain to me why anyone would choose a shield ship to brawl with post patch? And how this is not effecting shield more then armor.
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DireNecessity
The M.P.I. Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
33
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Posted - 2013.02.12 16:23:00 -
[239] - Quote
I always presumed the passive bonus provided by the Shield Compensation skills was to make up for the lack of a passive omni-shield resistance module like passive armor tankersGÇÖ numerous Adaptive Nano Plating options.
CCP GÇô if itGÇÖs your desire to completely eliminate passive omni-shield resistance hardening at least state that that is in fact your intention. Obfuscating the actual result of a supposedly minor change in GÇ£we donGÇÖt like multi-function modulesGÇ¥ language irritates to all involved.
CCP GÇô now aware of a major reason why people trained the Shield Compensation skills, you have several options: 1) Make no changes noting there was reasonable purpose behind peoples training queues 2) Declare there will be no passive omni-shield hardening options and make the change 3) Make the change and introduce a shield tankerGÇÖs version of the Adaptive Nano Plating options
Whatever you kids at CCP declare the new situation to be, IGÇÖll adapt (I always do). I only request that you a) *genuinely* think it through and b) show *some* willingness to consider input from loyal customers whose subscriptions pay your wages. (YouGÇÖre not obligated to accept any particular customerGÇÖs input but tGÇÖwould be great if your loyal customers felt like you paid attention to them.)
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Naomi Anthar
No Tax So Relax.
37
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Posted - 2013.02.12 16:51:00 -
[240] - Quote
I must say i was complaining a lot about shield tanking. And mostly on that CCP is not willing to somehow penalize it. Now i must say that i ... i'm ashamed. This fabulous change, revelation i would say. Finnaly cap less weapons , cap less active tank and cap less passive tank even lol combo was finnaly broken. Now they can finnaly be dealt with.
For once there is something that is better about armor tanking. I acknowledge it. I adore it. I'm not troll,but forum warrior - yes. Seems like a bit of justice after all.
Was kinda sad before that gallente or amarr ship - be it blaster or laser was weapon cap dependant, active armor tank cap dependant and hardeners used cap too on top of that.
Tears in this topic ease my pain and mostly i recovered some faith in CCP balance team. Keep this work ! Still much must be done about shield tanking. |
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