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Clone upgrades in depth article. Interesting read.

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bongsmoke School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State 94	Posted - 2013.01.30 02:58:00 - [61] - Quote Why would CCP cripple one of many cash cows? It forces older players to buy PLEX to offset the clone costs. Ships...pfft. Only T1 ships are worthly of insurance. I support reducing the cost of clones(I think 66% reduction is fair), but not the removal. I also support increasing T2 insurance(to around 70% of ship valve), however, not T3. Take what everyone says with a grain of salt...It will never change because of greed, and CCP will only make the cost go up as time elapses. All this dicussion is just that, a discussion with no change or different outcome.
James Amril-Kesh 4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance 3613	Posted - 2013.01.30 03:00:00 - [62] - Quote People buy PLEX to cover clone costs... WHAT Malcanis for CSM 8 Phrases like "you can't nerf / buff X EVE is a Sandbox" have the same amount of meaning as "If this is a sack of potatoes then you can not carrot." - Alara IonStorm
bongsmoke School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State 94	Posted - 2013.01.30 03:07:00 - [63] - Quote James Amril-Kesh wrote: People buy PLEX to cover clone costs... WHAT Obviously not someone as new as you. Veterans however do have a cost, and its not cheap. Stick around another 8 or 9 years, then maybe you'll start complaining about costs. Just because veterans have all those skills, doesn't mean your income increases to supplement all the costs associated with losing ships, clones.(implants dont count). When a clone costs almost as much as a battlecruiser, there is a problem.
Alavaria Fera GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 3348	Posted - 2013.01.30 03:36:00 - [64] - Quote bongsmoke wrote: James Amril-Kesh wrote: People buy PLEX to cover clone costs... WHAT Obviously not someone as new as you. Veterans however do have a cost, and its not cheap. Stick around another 8 or 9 years, then maybe you'll start complaining about costs. Just because veterans have all those skills, doesn't mean your income increases to supplement all the costs associated with losing ships, clones.(implants dont count). When a clone costs almost as much as a battlecruiser, there is a problem. We tend to have more of the alt "solution" I think. As opposed to people with a 100m sp minimum alliance that might feel a desire to stack more and more SP, or fly everything on one character. Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm
Mr Kidd Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 937	Posted - 2013.01.30 03:40:00 - [65] - Quote If one who has the SP to require the more expensive clones has not discovered how to finance such purchases by such time then perhaps one should pod themselves a few times without a clone to lower the costs. One can always sell such toons and purchase something with lower maintenance costs. We want breast augmentations and sluttier clothing in the NeX!
bongsmoke School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State 94	Posted - 2013.01.30 03:43:00 - [66] - Quote Alavaria Fera wrote: bongsmoke wrote: James Amril-Kesh wrote: People buy PLEX to cover clone costs... WHAT Obviously not someone as new as you. Veterans however do have a cost, and its not cheap. Stick around another 8 or 9 years, then maybe you'll start complaining about costs. Just because veterans have all those skills, doesn't mean your income increases to supplement all the costs associated with losing ships, clones.(implants dont count). When a clone costs almost as much as a battlecruiser, there is a problem. We tend to have more of the alt "solution" I think. As opposed to people with a 100m sp minimum alliance that might feel a desire to stack more and more SP, or fly everything on one character. so spend even more isk or RL money/ not to mention time on alts as a solution. Not saying I don't have alts obviously, but you shouldn't have too if you want to pew pew in low sec with a cheap bc or cruiser.
Its Over 9000 Global Criminal Countdown 5	Posted - 2013.01.30 03:50:00 - [67] - Quote Mr Kidd wrote: If one who has the SP to require the more expensive clones has not discovered how to finance such purchases by such time then perhaps one should pod themselves a few times without a clone to lower the costs. One can always sell such toons and purchase something with lower maintenance costs. So your solution is to turn off one of the hooks for the game? Stop training? That is simply asinine.
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative. 7448	Posted - 2013.01.30 06:53:00 - [68] - Quote Marlona Sky wrote: Vaju Enki wrote: Pyre leFay wrote: Vaju Enki wrote: Death has consequences. Welcome to EvE Online. Yeah, your hull, your modules, your implants, your Sov, your WH, your POS, your Site, your empire, your "friends". Your CCP dictated clone sink for time played... wait... that doesn't seem to fit. Fits like a glove. Name me another game mechanic from another game that penalizes players for playing the game? For being a loyal customer? That discourages PvP in a PvP game? That encourages stronger and stronger risk aversion the longer you play? Full loss PvP. Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=192717&find=unread
RubyPorto Sniggwaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT 2541	Posted - 2013.01.30 07:02:00 - [69] - Quote Malcanis wrote: Marlona Sky wrote: Vaju Enki wrote: Pyre leFay wrote: Vaju Enki wrote: Death has consequences. Welcome to EvE Online. Yeah, your hull, your modules, your implants, your Sov, your WH, your POS, your Site, your empire, your "friends". Your CCP dictated clone sink for time played... wait... that doesn't seem to fit. Fits like a glove. Name me another game mechanic from another game that penalizes players for playing the game? For being a loyal customer? That discourages PvP in a PvP game? That encourages stronger and stronger risk aversion the longer you play? Full loss PvP. Doesn't encourage stronger risk aversion the longer you play the way clone costs do. A ship costs the same to lose if you have 1m SP or 100m. A pod does not. Clone costs simply punish older players for being old. That's a **** mechanic. This is EVE - Everybody Versus Everybody. "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP)." -CCP Solomon
James Amril-Kesh 4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance 3613	Posted - 2013.01.30 07:22:00 - [70] - Quote Malcanis wrote: Marlona Sky wrote: Vaju Enki wrote: Pyre leFay wrote: Vaju Enki wrote: Death has consequences. Welcome to EvE Online. Yeah, your hull, your modules, your implants, your Sov, your WH, your POS, your Site, your empire, your "friends". Your CCP dictated clone sink for time played... wait... that doesn't seem to fit. Fits like a glove. Name me another game mechanic from another game that penalizes players for playing the game? For being a loyal customer? That discourages PvP in a PvP game? That encourages stronger and stronger risk aversion the longer you play? Full loss PvP. That's an aspect that also attracts people to the game. Clone costs don't attract anyone to the game. It just serves to punish people for having trained their characters longer, which makes no sense at all. Malcanis for CSM 8 Phrases like "you can't nerf / buff X EVE is a Sandbox" have the same amount of meaning as "If this is a sack of potatoes then you can not carrot." - Alara IonStorm
Barrogh Habalu Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire 406	Posted - 2013.01.30 08:16:00 - [71] - Quote I made an argument on that page linked in the OP about the whole clone thing intended it to be more sarcastic than serious, but now I feel that it can as well pass as somewhat that makes a bit of sense... See, higher SP provides an advantage if those SP are relevant to the task, so it makes sense if you have to risk (and occasionally pay) more to have this advantage. But most SP on old toons are irrelevant to particular task, so why do people have to pay for something that provides them nothing? What if we could introduce an option to "freeze" certain skills of a toon? "Frozen" skills have no effect and don't count towards SP amount in terms of clone capacity required in order not to lose any SP you trained. Limitations should be added, like: - managing skill "hibernation" should have large CD (let's say 48 hours, maybe 24 if you think that 48 will be too limiting); - it should be impossible to "freeze" any skills that are prerequisites to any skills that are kept unfrozen so that amount of "active" SP never fall below the amount of SP normally (currently) required to fly your fit with stated effectiveness; - you can still train frozen skills, but they have no effect until you "unfreeze" them; - if your active SP exceed capability of your current medical clone at time of podding, you are still taking SP hit based on your total SP; hey, at least that's still better than not having an option to "downclone", you just have to be double careful; - speaking of that, add a warning popup if player tries to undock with a clone insufficient for his current active SP; add an option to disable that warning because UI customization is cool; - skills that can be used in passive or semi-passive activities like anchoring, corp managenet, PI or trade shouldn't be allowed to be frozen. The last bullet is up to discussion because it means that such change can't be fully used by industrialists and the like, but however it is accomplished, the point stays: you should not be able to keep your jobs running, your orders working and your POS operating while you happily keep related skills frozen. Also it's possible that clone costs should be tweaked a bit while keeping this function in mind, but I think noone short of CCP staff with access to statistics can do that properly. Example: You've docked your capital and you feel sluggish after flying that 80 m/s speedster. You would like to take your cruiser on a suicidal roam, but you think it'd be nice to be able to visit null in the process. So you proceed to do two things: - you clone jump into another clone as flying slaved and hardwired clone in a shield tanked roaming T1 cruiser isn't exactly bright idea; this action initiates JC cooldown; - you freeze your capital skills and the like in order to allow cheaper clones save your SP in case of podding; you can't freze your frigate-related skills though because cruiser-related skills have them as prerequisites; also you still already have expencive clone bought before, and you will lose it first time you die, but at least your subsequent clones can be cheap; this action initiates Neural Hibernation Management Procedure cooldown. You can ofc suggest an option to actually downgrade your clone to recieve a portion of your money back, but I think that is uneeded. Gameplay-wise, no need to make changes bigger than it's sufficient, just to remain careful. Lore-wise, that's your clone that medical staff created and noone else needs it. That means they aren't (effectively) buying your clone just because you don't think you need it anymore. Comment on the idea. If it will have any sorts of positive feedback and I will be made obvious to its downsides and abuse potential (and then get the latters brainstormed out), I'll be posting this in the suggestions subforum.
Xen Solarus Inner 5phere 276	Posted - 2013.01.30 08:50:00 - [72] - Quote Lots of skillpoints means you've been playing for a while, and as such should be able to afford the costs of clone replacement. If you've failed to become wealthy by then, then you're probably doing something wrong. By this point you should be flying better ships than most, more skilled and experienced and therefore harder to kill. Seems like a fair tradeoff to me to have to pay higher clone replacement costs. Not to mention that i also believe that the death of your character should have a consequence. This isn't wow! If your going to put the little fella in harms way, and he ends up floating in the harsh cold depths of space, you should be ready to pay the price. Immortality isn't cheap for the elite! Are these issues born from repeated PvP-related deaths? I'm surprised to hear it from those sorts of players. They're generally the ones moaning about EvE becoming kitty-online. Post with your main, like a BOSS!
Barrogh Habalu Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire 406	Posted - 2013.01.30 09:20:00 - [73] - Quote Xen Solarus wrote: Are these issues born from repeated PvP-related deaths? I'm surprised to hear it from those sorts of players. They're generally the ones moaning about EvE becoming kitty-online. Disincentive to fight and do all sorts of stupid things is what makes games into "kitty online". I personally disagree with insurance part for that exact reason.
Debora Tsung The Investment Bankers Guild 38	Posted - 2013.01.30 09:43:00 - [74] - Quote Unsuccessful At Everything wrote: That all being broken down to show that there was nothing but pure compliments in there and in no way sarcasm, I will now direct you to an online pharmacy where you can all get some sauve for those sore rumps. (here) If sarkasm and irony would hurt I'd be in serious pain just from reading Your posts. Well done I say, Well done indeed. I sincerely wish my linguistic skills were as advanced as Yours, I'd be trolling the forums all day and look like the proverbial saint. There's nothing a million chinese guys can't do cheaper.
Marlona Sky D00M. Northern Coalition. 3037	Posted - 2013.01.30 09:43:00 - [75] - Quote Age != Wealth Remove local, structure mails and revamp the directional scanner!
Zimmy Zeta RvB - RED Federation 6746	Posted - 2013.01.30 09:50:00 - [76] - Quote bongsmoke wrote: James Amril-Kesh wrote: People buy PLEX to cover clone costs... WHAT Obviously not someone as new as you. Stick around another 8 or 9 years, then maybe you'll start complaining. FTFY Please don't feed me.
Debora Tsung The Investment Bankers Guild 38	Posted - 2013.01.30 10:03:00 - [77] - Quote Rosen Thornn wrote: The high price of clones is one of the checks and balances for the game. High skill points characters need to follow thier own advice, don't fly what you can't afford to lose. If the price is to high, there are two other character slot on the account, make a new character. Unfortunatly that is the cost of being able to fly a bunch of ships over specializing. We vets keep telling the new players that the amount of skill points doesn't matter. specialize, pick a ship and stick with it. Perhaps its time you take your own advice. That advice applies only to ships, since You do not have the option to simply swap to an earlier and therefore cheaper version of Your current clone on the fly. You're basically telling us that there comes a point at which You can no longer afford to play the game with the character You've invested years of time to develop it because... duh, it's balancing (it's not, really. it's just an outdated and old mechanic and nobody ever even looked at it after it's implementation). What ould be he alternative? Create yet another alt because Your obviously ancient character is too valuable to do anything else than scanning and science? Quit because some masochistic minority believes it is cool to loose 20% of Your current isk for getting podded because interceptors do not have marauder class tank? Just tell me one viable alternative that does not start with that "don't fly what..." garbage. There's nothing a million chinese guys can't do cheaper.
Nicolo da'Vicenza Air The Unthinkables 2724	Posted - 2013.01.30 10:14:00 - [78] - Quote Gradiating clone costs can be stuffed in the same failbin that its brother 'learning skills' ended up in. Of course, I remember bears complaining about learning skills being removed as well, 'because hey i trained +10 in all learning skills, in 6 years ill be totally hosed since you only added +9, CCP keep learning skills"
baltec1 Bat Country 4985	Posted - 2013.01.30 10:16:00 - [79] - Quote Gotta admit the 20 mil stupid tax I pay every time I welp a pod doesn't feel nice.
Nicolo da'Vicenza Air The Unthinkables 2724	Posted - 2013.01.30 10:16:00 - [80] - Quote Xen Solarus wrote: Lots of skillpoints means you've been playing for a while, and as such should be able to afford the costs of clone replacement. If you've failed to become wealthy by then, then you're probably doing something wrong. By this point you should be flying better ships than most, more skilled and experienced and therefore harder to kill. maybe unlike you their annual PVP activity level might add up to more then a total of 0-3 might alter their point of view, is all
ChaseX The Executives Executive Outcomes 2	Posted - 2013.01.30 10:24:00 - [81] - Quote Its Over 9000 wrote: While I am not sold on the insurance part, I find the rest of the article about the clone upgrades very compelling. CLONE UPGRADE BILLS: A PAINFUL THROWBACK Marlona goes into three parts of how clone upgrades impacts the game and she gives good reason why they need to be addressed, if not removed all together. Came to the thread expecting a write-up from a lubed bitter vet on TM. Left very satisfied.
March rabbit Aliastra 516	Posted - 2013.01.30 10:55:00 - [82] - Quote Marlona Sky wrote: Vaju Enki wrote: Pyre leFay wrote: Vaju Enki wrote: Death has consequences. Welcome to EvE Online. Yeah, your hull, your modules, your implants, your Sov, your WH, your POS, your Site, your empire, your "friends". Your CCP dictated clone sink for time played... wait... that doesn't seem to fit. Fits like a glove. Name me another game mechanic from another game that penalizes players for playing the game? For being a loyal customer? That discourages PvP in a PvP game? That encourages stronger and stronger risk aversion the longer you play? Eve is different, yea. However let's looks at another game mechanic. Security status. Literally speaking this mechanic penalizes you for playing game. You are playing this game by killing people in high-sec/low-sec (which is perfectly acceptable in this game) and getting your security status lower and lower. The more you play the worse penalty gets. The same can be said about SP. You choose to train it or train another char. No one forces you here. From the side of my greedyness i vote for your idea tho. The less ISK goes away - the more will stay in my wallet And i love big numbers.
Debora Tsung The Investment Bankers Guild 38	Posted - 2013.01.30 11:04:00 - [83] - Quote March rabbit wrote: However let's looks at another game mechanic. Security status. Literally speaking this mechanic penalizes you for playing game. You are playing this game by killing people in high-sec/low-sec (which is perfectly acceptable in this game) and getting your security status lower and lower. The more you play the worse penalty gets. The same can be said about SP. You choose to train it or train another char. No one forces you here. From the side of my greedyness i vote for your idea tho. The less ISK goes away - the more will stay in my wallet And i love big numbers. No, security status actually pretty much looks like a mechanic to keep You out of what was intended to be a noob Zone, or at least remove the risk free haven for people who insist on imposing their style of play onto other layers. It works as intended. You can decide to enter highsec or You can decide to stay out of it, there's enough player driven industry to get everything You need in null or lowsec, too. You don't need to enter Highsec to buy all the sineys You want. At the same time the decition to train or not train Your clone is no decition at all because not training Your clone is just plain stupid, it has no advantages at all. There's nothing a million chinese guys can't do cheaper.
EvEa Deva State War Academy Caldari State 208	Posted - 2013.01.30 11:41:00 - [84] - Quote Could just add a skill that lowers clone cost, everyone loves training skills.
Eugene Spencer Appetite 4 Destruction 163	Posted - 2013.01.30 11:53:00 - [85] - Quote Agree with the clone stuff. Not that fussed about the insurance stuff though. *I have a specific comb for my beard.*
Destination SkillQueue Are We There Yet 4075	Posted - 2013.01.30 13:45:00 - [86] - Quote EvEa Deva wrote: Could just add a skill that lowers clone cost, everyone loves training skills. If it just alters the costs, it doesn't address the issue. The issue is, that SP amount shouldn't heavily alter your clone cost. If you think such a thing is a bad thing and our CCP overlords always wanted to punish their oldest and most loyal customers by additional grinding, then nothing needs to be changed. If you think it makes a lot of sense, more SP needs to stop influencing your clone cost shortly after the beginning. No new mechanics or convoluted systems needs to be added. After that we would pretty much just have a free newbie clone and a universal medical clone, that costs everyone the same.
Mr Kidd Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 940	Posted - 2013.01.30 14:50:00 - [87] - Quote Its Over 9000 wrote: Mr Kidd wrote: If one who has the SP to require the more expensive clones has not discovered how to finance such purchases by such time then perhaps one should pod themselves a few times without a clone to lower the costs. One can always sell such toons and purchase something with lower maintenance costs. So your solution is to turn off one of the hooks for the game? Stop training? That is simply asinine. No, it's a hard truth. If you're complaining about the cost of clones then you're one of two things: 1) You're a player who is dying way too often. I assume this to be PVP related and not participating in other facets of the game enough to afford it. or 2) Your toon is so old that the cost of dying is prohibitively expensive but it still means you're not participating in the other facets that would have you afford it. Which ever one of those you are is hilariously ironic. It's the antithesis of carebearism. So much so that I suppose you could call it pvpbearism, wanting your pvp but nothing more of the game. You want your pvp but you don't want to do anything else in the game to afford it. You want it handed to you on a platter as if you're some God given gift to the game. It's hilariously ironic because now we have a whine thread from the pvp'ers that, OMFG, you might have to do something other than pewpew! HTFU! There's a plethora of ways to passively make buttloads of isk in this game. Another hard truth of this game is, it's a giant isk sink. Now, you can afford that either by whipping out your credit card everytime you need isk or grinding isk. You're free to choose your method. If all you want to do is come on, pewpew and then leave you're going to need a working credit card, my friend. Otherwise, you better learn how to carebear it up! The only other alternative is going to play some FPS where you can die over and over and over again without any cost. Afterall, Eve is about risk vs reward. Blindly dying ad nauseam is by no means a "risk" and therefore not to be rewarded. So the next time your FC orders you to die in a ball of fire, perhaps you should weigh the risk you're taking versus the reward you shall reap. Oh the irony! After years of the PVP'ers admonishing, ridiculing, denigrating, scoffing at the players they've labeled carebears, they might just need to become what they've so hated! We want breast augmentations and sluttier clothing in the NeX!
March rabbit Aliastra 516	Posted - 2013.01.30 15:09:00 - [88] - Quote Debora Tsung wrote: At the same time the decision to train or not train Your clone is no decition at all because not training Your clone is just plain stupid, it has no advantages at all. training different chars has advantages. There are: - selling chars - using "neutral" haulers/scouts - lower clone cost for every char - ...?
Danu Charante Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 5	Posted - 2013.01.30 15:11:00 - [89] - Quote Destination SkillQueue wrote: EvEa Deva wrote: Could just add a skill that lowers clone cost, everyone loves training skills. If it just alters the costs, it doesn't address the issue. The issue is, that SP amount shouldn't heavily alter your clone cost. If you think such a thing is a bad thing and our CCP overlords always wanted to punish their oldest and most loyal customers by additional grinding, then nothing needs to be changed. If you think it makes a lot of sense, more SP needs to stop influencing your clone cost shortly after the beginning. No new mechanics or convoluted systems needs to be added. After that we would pretty much just have a free newbie clone and a universal medical clone, that costs everyone the same. Account age does no equal customer loyalty. (Character Bazaar) Alliances need to adapt. They already provide Welfare with SRP's, now it's time to tackle the problem of an aging population with Pension Plans
Debora Tsung The Investment Bankers Guild 38	Posted - 2013.01.30 15:20:00 - [90] - Quote March rabbit wrote: Debora Tsung wrote: At the same time the decision to train or not train Your clone is no decition at all because not training Your clone is just plain stupid, it has no advantages at all. training different chars has advantages. There are: - selling chars - using "neutral" haulers/scouts - lower clone cost for every char - ...? Nice try, You gave examples to something entirely different, but I'll answer to Your "points" anyways: - selling chars -> Useless, since there's no real reason to swap to a char with lower SP and thus limit Your own possibilities. - using "neutral" haulers/scouts -> requires multiboxing, therefore useless since You can already train 2 chars at once - lower clone cost for every char -> it's a crappy outdated and old mechanic that noone ever bothered to take a second look upon. It should be removed because it only punishes loyal returning customers and it's also discriminating. - ...? -> There are no other reasons to keep this mechanic. There's nothing a million chinese guys can't do cheaper.

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