Pages: 1 2 :: [one page] |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Marlona Sky
D00M. Northern Coalition.
3042
|
Posted - 2013.01.31 08:05:00 -
[1] - Quote
For those who have no clue what counter play is, watch this video.
Discuss.
Remove local, structure mails and revamp the directional scanner! |
Stoogie
Cadre Assault Force This is why we cant have nice things
53
|
Posted - 2013.01.31 08:14:00 -
[2] - Quote
No it does not Some of the suggested changes I've seen on the forums to ecm would create very good counter play. The main problem with ecm is in large engagements its pretty balanced. In small ones it just buggers everything up. Nerfing it for small gang would just push the buggering up side of things over to large fights and fixes nothing.
TLDR
Yes its broken but no easy fix. In my opinion. |
Eugene Kerner
TunDraGon
543
|
Posted - 2013.01.31 08:14:00 -
[3] - Quote
Marlona Sky wrote:For those who have no clue what counter play is, watch this video. Discuss.
ECM is SO overrated. It does only give you an advantage if your enemy is stupid and has never thought about how to counter it...as every module in eve.
"Also, your boobs " -á CCP Eterne, 2012
|
Whitehound
537
|
Posted - 2013.01.31 08:52:00 -
[4] - Quote
Demanding counter play for everything is bad, because it makes everyone a winner and is meant to avoid losers.
How would ganking, awoxing, spying, theft, etc. fit in here? It does not, yet it is a part of EVE. SCAM CAT - Titan Jump - I was there - Goon Dog |
Sab Sab Five
Purging Maelstrom
8
|
Posted - 2013.01.31 09:02:00 -
[5] - Quote
Quote: It does only give you an advantage if your enemy is stupid and has never thought about how to counter it
tight fits might not have room to counter it, and its not a guarantee in every fight. its a very powerful mechanic, making its users feel optimized and the falcon overused, iirc.
Eve's counterplay feels arcane and aloof, because there are so many options and so much stuff you would never fit, unless you know your enemy and what to expect. That is the advanced play that makes some folks great at this game.
i hate getting jammed, but i dont fit for it... because i deem other stuffs more important. May be my loss. But it kinda seems that the options are there, yes? |
Eugene Kerner
TunDraGon
544
|
Posted - 2013.01.31 09:08:00 -
[6] - Quote
Sab Sab Five wrote:Quote: It does only give you an advantage if your enemy is stupid and has never thought about how to counter it tight fits might not have room to counter it, and its not a guarantee in every fight. its a very powerful mechanic, making its users feel optimized and the falcon overused, iirc. Eve's counterplay feels arcane and aloof, because there are so many options and so much stuff you would never fit, unless you know your enemy and what to expect. That is the advanced play that makes some folks great at this game. i hate getting jammed, but i dont fit for it... because i deem other stuffs more important. May be my loss. But it kinda seems that the options are there, yes?
If you refer to ECM being overpowered in solo pvp because someone brings a falcon Alt you would be wrong again...if someone brings a falcon Alt it is NOT solo. You know...there is always the risk that your opponent may be better prepared than you.
If you are in a small gang bring dampeners...work wonders on falcons...
"Also, your boobs " -á CCP Eterne, 2012
|
Kryss Darkdust
The Skulls
224
|
Posted - 2013.01.31 09:13:00 -
[7] - Quote
ECM is only a problem when you are engaging target you know nothing about. In wars for example ECM is irrelevant because as soon as one side relizes the other uses they make small fitting adjustments and render it completetly useless, which is why its more balanced in larger Null Sec battles as people know its coming so they always prepare for it.
I don't really see any reason to change ECM. Its effective but has plenty of ways it can be countered. More importantly it creates a profession in the game and the more mechanics we have around which professions can exist the better.
The reality of Eve is that, if you don't love it like it is today, you should probobly go ahead and unsub.-á |
Ravnik
Choke-Hold
4567
|
Posted - 2013.01.31 09:31:00 -
[8] - Quote
Its all "Rock, Paper, Scissors" anyway.. The light that burns twice as bright burns half as long - and you have burned so very, very brightly.......... |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
7498
|
Posted - 2013.01.31 09:32:00 -
[9] - Quote
Marlona Sky wrote:For those who have no clue what counter play is, watch this video. Discuss.
ECM is a bad mechanic and should be replaced with something better. Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=192717&find=unread |
Marlona Sky
D00M. Northern Coalition.
3043
|
Posted - 2013.01.31 09:33:00 -
[10] - Quote
Ravnik wrote:Its all "Rock, Paper, Scissors" anyway.. Well, yeah, unless you are jammed. Then you go to raise your arm to pick a rock, paper or scissors only to find you magically don't have a hand at all - and thus automatically lose.
Remove local, structure mails and revamp the directional scanner! |
|
Kryss Darkdust
The Skulls
224
|
Posted - 2013.01.31 09:39:00 -
[11] - Quote
Marlona Sky wrote:Ravnik wrote:Its all "Rock, Paper, Scissors" anyway.. Well, yeah, unless you are jammed. Then you go to raise your arm to pick a rock, paper or scissors only to find you magically don't have a hand at all - and thus automatically lose.
If your in a fight and you got jammed, its not the jam that screwed your, its your awareness, fit and decesions that lead to that moment. In Eve all fights are decided by the most prepared fleet. Actual combat is more like a cut scene, its usually just a formality, the results of the fight have already been determined by the time it starts.
The most successful players in Eve are those that know how to predict the outcomes of fights, not the ones who know how to fight them. The reality of Eve is that, if you don't love it like it is today, you should probobly go ahead and unsub.-á |
Ravnik
Choke-Hold
4567
|
Posted - 2013.01.31 09:39:00 -
[12] - Quote
Marlona Sky wrote:Ravnik wrote:Its all "Rock, Paper, Scissors" anyway.. Well, yeah, unless you are jammed. Then you go to raise your arm to pick a rock, paper or scissors only to find you magically don't have a hand at all - and thus automatically lose.
Hehe true, altho if someone jams you they dont know if you have eccm fitted, fof missiles, etc, so altho i agree there isnt much to counter, there still are mods etc that your enemy "could" be using. It all depends on what mods you are willing to sacrifice to have the "counters" fitted. The light that burns twice as bright burns half as long - and you have burned so very, very brightly.......... |
Danny John-Peter
New Eden Renegades Ninja Unicorns with Huge Horns
185
|
Posted - 2013.01.31 09:48:00 -
[13] - Quote
Kryss Darkdust wrote:Marlona Sky wrote:Ravnik wrote:Its all "Rock, Paper, Scissors" anyway.. Well, yeah, unless you are jammed. Then you go to raise your arm to pick a rock, paper or scissors only to find you magically don't have a hand at all - and thus automatically lose. If your in a fight and you got jammed, its not the jam that screwed your, its your awareness, fit and decesions that lead to that moment. In Eve all fights are decided by the most prepared fleet. Actual combat is more like a cut scene, its usually just a formality, the results of the fight have already been determined by the time it starts. The most successful players in Eve are those that know how to predict the outcomes of fights, not the ones who know how to fight them.
Falcons, they can cloak.
ECM is a poor mechanic that impeaches upon solo pilots far too much, I'm not sure if it can be fixed beyond a complete redesign.
But trust me, its not a lack of preparedness.
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=14926633
|
Kryss Darkdust
The Skulls
227
|
Posted - 2013.01.31 09:54:00 -
[14] - Quote
Danny John-Peter wrote:Kryss Darkdust wrote:Marlona Sky wrote:Ravnik wrote:Its all "Rock, Paper, Scissors" anyway.. Well, yeah, unless you are jammed. Then you go to raise your arm to pick a rock, paper or scissors only to find you magically don't have a hand at all - and thus automatically lose. If your in a fight and you got jammed, its not the jam that screwed your, its your awareness, fit and decesions that lead to that moment. In Eve all fights are decided by the most prepared fleet. Actual combat is more like a cut scene, its usually just a formality, the results of the fight have already been determined by the time it starts. The most successful players in Eve are those that know how to predict the outcomes of fights, not the ones who know how to fight them. Falcons, they can cloak. ECM is a poor mechanic that impeaches upon solo pilots far too much, I'm not sure if it can be fixed beyond a complete redesign. But trust me, its not a lack of preparedness. http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=14926633
Eve is not a solo game. If your caught solo by a fleet with a cloaked ship, you failed, not the mechanic. People often mistake having a "bigger" ship, is an I win button. I assure you thats not the case. The reality of Eve is that, if you don't love it like it is today, you should probobly go ahead and unsub.-á |
Rordan D'Kherr
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
418
|
Posted - 2013.01.31 09:59:00 -
[15] - Quote
Oh this topic again! New and exciting.
Marlona Sky wrote:Ravnik wrote:Its all "Rock, Paper, Scissors" anyway.. Well, yeah, unless you are jammed. Then you go to raise your arm to pick a rock, paper or scissors only to find you magically don't have a hand at all - and thus automatically lose.
Jammed = loss? Wrong.
_______________________________________ Don't be scared, because being afk is not a crime. |
Whitehound
538
|
Posted - 2013.01.31 09:59:00 -
[16] - Quote
Marlona Sky wrote:Ravnik wrote:Its all "Rock, Paper, Scissors" anyway.. Well, yeah, unless you are jammed. Then you go to raise your arm to pick a rock, paper or scissors only to find you magically don't have a hand at all - and thus automatically lose. Or someone drops a bubble and you cannot warp any longer. Let's change this, too.
What about weapons? Someone doing a bombing run on me in my frigate totally lacks counter play. This, too, needs a fix.
Why don't asteroids fight back when I mine them? They deserve counter play just like anyone else! Let's fix that, too. More rights to roids.
Do I now vote for Malcanis, yes? SCAM CAT - Titan Jump - I was there - Goon Dog |
Super spikinator
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
73
|
Posted - 2013.01.31 10:27:00 -
[17] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Marlona Sky wrote:For those who have no clue what counter play is, watch this video. Discuss. ECM is a bad mechanic and should be replaced with something better.
I agree. A rework of anti-missile weapons and the introduction of large hull anti-drone weapons that aren't smartbombs would be great. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
7499
|
Posted - 2013.01.31 10:28:00 -
[18] - Quote
If you must. Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=192717&find=unread |
Whitehound
539
|
Posted - 2013.01.31 10:35:00 -
[19] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:If you must. Are you confirm that this is a stealth "vote for Malcanis" thread?
And further, can you confirm to be recycling old topics to gain votes for your campaign? SCAM CAT - Titan Jump - I was there - Goon Dog |
Pohbis
Neo T.E.C.H.
271
|
Posted - 2013.01.31 10:39:00 -
[20] - Quote
Marlona Sky wrote:For those who have no clue what counter play is, watch this video. Discuss. Yes it does.
There is a myriad of different ways to fit a ship, in order to counter ECM. No, it's not just ECCM.
If you chose to maximise your potential for one scenario and forego anything else, you are vulnerable to your opponent taking advantage of that.
None of what was presented in that video happens if one part doesn't actually think and takes advantage of the different tactical options.
The fact that EVE players tend to charge in with only one unit, tank and gank, is not something you can fault ECM for. Actually, the fact that ECM counters are so widely ignored would seem to suggest that it is not common enough, or big enough of a threat, to warrant trade-offs in ship fittings.
I don't see a whole lot of ECM solo kills, especially compared to other e-war ships. Simply because an ECM boat that is fit to be able to tackle, keep in range AND kill a target, is not fit with a full rack of ECM modules and able to permajam a target. They are much more vulnerable than other e-war ships, because of the RNG aspect of ECM.
I know I'd much rather run into an ECM boat when solo, than a Gallente recon with a long point and sensor damps. |
|
TharOkha
0asis Group
505
|
Posted - 2013.01.31 10:43:00 -
[21] - Quote
One possible solution would be that ECM would not be "perma on" module but it would work once per cycle. (destabilize targets targetting/sensors etc, but target could instantly re-lock you till next cycle of ECM). It would break locks, not perma-jamm. GÇ£If reality can destroy the dream, why shouldn't the dream destroy reality?GÇ¥ |
TheBlueMonkey
Don't Be a Menace That Red Alliance
366
|
Posted - 2013.01.31 10:45:00 -
[22] - Quote
Eve's a game about choices, you choose what skills to train, choose what space to fly in etc etc etc and ECM highlights this.
If you're repeatedly fighting the same group of people that they roll deep with the ECM then not fitting ECCM just makes you dumb. Also not fielding your own ECM and snipey ships makes you dumb.
If you're not fighting the same people all the time then it's your choice whether you fit for ECM or not.
Every fleet there's ever been that's been "over powered" has had a counter along the road.
Personally I think there needs to be something that stops ecm in solo ships, maybe just make ECM drones only usable by ECM boats or make them have a tiny chance to break a lock and just be lock breakers than actual jammers but ultimately I think we're just in yet another "rock's over powered, buff scissors" conversation. |
Gillia Winddancer
Shiny Noble Crown Services
304
|
Posted - 2013.01.31 10:45:00 -
[23] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:Marlona Sky wrote:Ravnik wrote:Its all "Rock, Paper, Scissors" anyway.. Well, yeah, unless you are jammed. Then you go to raise your arm to pick a rock, paper or scissors only to find you magically don't have a hand at all - and thus automatically lose. Or someone drops a bubble and you cannot warp any longer. Let's change this, too. What about weapons? Someone doing a bombing run on me in my frigate totally lacks counter play. This, too, needs a fix. Why don't asteroids fight back when I mine them? They deserve counter play just like anyone else! Let's fix that, too. More rights to roids. Do I now vote for Malcanis, yes?
Except that you know....the one who is in the bubble can still target and shoot at enemies.
Just saying.
There is quiiiiite the difference between a "slow" and a "perma-stun" effect. If you now have the capability to imagine such a thing that is.
And I really love it when people insist on comparing different mechanics that are completely unrelated to one another in their functionality and gameplay effects. Makes them look that much more stupid. |
Ravnik
Choke-Hold
4569
|
Posted - 2013.01.31 10:48:00 -
[24] - Quote
hmm, i wonder if ECM might need a charge, same as cap boosters. That way you are limited to how much you can use it, and each charge size is a different strength ecm charge. you can carry loads of "50" size charges which are not as strong, or a few 800 size which are garanteed jams, but have to be used sparingly. The light that burns twice as bright burns half as long - and you have burned so very, very brightly.......... |
Whitehound
541
|
Posted - 2013.01.31 10:48:00 -
[25] - Quote
Gillia Winddancer wrote:Except that you know....the one who is in the bubble can still target and shoot at enemies. And the one who is jammed can still fly away, or use drones, or auto-targeting missiles, or smartbombs, or ECM burst, or a target spectrum breaker, or out-tank the DPS, or lock faster and dampen the sensors, or fit ECCM, or ... SCAM CAT - Titan Jump - I was there - Goon Dog |
TheBlueMonkey
Don't Be a Menace That Red Alliance
366
|
Posted - 2013.01.31 10:49:00 -
[26] - Quote
TharOkha wrote:One possible solution would be that ECM would not be "perma on" module but it would work once per cycle. (destabilize targets targetting/sensors etc, but target could instantly re-lock you till next cycle of ECM)
Thats how I think ECM drones should work tbh.
The modules on the specific ships should be a "jammed untill cycle ends" then there's the %chance to jam again. |
Eugene Kerner
TunDraGon
549
|
Posted - 2013.01.31 10:55:00 -
[27] - Quote
TharOkha wrote:One possible solution would be that ECM would not be "perma on" module but it would work once per cycle. (destabilize targets targetting/sensors etc, but target could instantly re-lock you till next cycle of ECM). It would break locks, not perma-jamm.
Ever heard of a ECM Burst??
"Also, your boobs " -á CCP Eterne, 2012
|
Le Badass
Zealots of Bob
54
|
Posted - 2013.01.31 10:56:00 -
[28] - Quote
Great video, I've bookmarked it and will try out their other vids as soon as I have time. +1 for the link alone. |
Gillia Winddancer
Shiny Noble Crown Services
304
|
Posted - 2013.01.31 10:56:00 -
[29] - Quote
TheBlueMonkey wrote:Eve's a game about choices, you choose what skills to train, choose what space to fly in etc etc etc and ECM highlights this.
If you're repeatedly fighting the same group of people that they roll deep with the ECM then not fitting ECCM just makes you dumb. Also not fielding your own ECM and snipey ships makes you dumb.
If you're not fighting the same people all the time then it's your choice whether you fit for ECM or not.
Every fleet there's ever been that's been "over powered" has had a counter along the road.
Personally I think there needs to be something that stops ecm in solo ships, maybe just make ECM drones only usable by ECM boats or make them have a tiny chance to break a lock and just be lock breakers than actual jammers but ultimately I think we're just in yet another "rock's over powered, buff scissors" conversation.
The thing that people actually argue about is the random and boolean nature of ECM. Counters or not, effects of it are still boiled down to a very static success or fail with quite the severe consequences as a result - and the severity being quite a lot harsher on the player on the receiving end. Not a single other e-warfare module functions like this.
Best part is that you can keep nerfing or boosting whichever side you want but you will never reach an ideal spot.
If ECM was changed to be an active effect with a wider range of results then there would not be any reason to complain about it anymore. I think that the actual effects of ECM are perfectly fine, just that it needs to be brought in line with all other e-warfare modules.
|
Pohbis
Neo T.E.C.H.
272
|
Posted - 2013.01.31 11:02:00 -
[30] - Quote
Gillia Winddancer wrote:[Except that you know....the one who is in the bubble can still target and shoot at enemies.
Just saying. Except that, you know... people don't drop bubbles on you if they expect to lose.
This is the biggest problem with ECM. As long as people can lock, they're happy to go down in a ball of fire. Disregarding the fact that they had no chance of actually winning while being webbed, target painted and tracking disrupted while having the scan res of a Titan.
|
|
Whitehound
541
|
Posted - 2013.01.31 11:07:00 -
[31] - Quote
Gillia Winddancer wrote:The thing that people actually argue about is the random and boolean nature of ECM. Counters or not, effects of it are still boiled down to a very static success or fail with quite the severe consequences as a result - and the severity being quite a lot harsher on the player on the receiving end. Not a single other e-warfare module functions like this. MEEEEEEP, wrong.
Do warp scramblers and disruptors have a static effect?
Do webs and target painters count as e-war?
Does ECM drive you mad cause u no shootin?
What was the name of a mini cake produced by Nestle?
YES. SCAM CAT - Titan Jump - I was there - Goon Dog |
Eugene Kerner
TunDraGon
549
|
Posted - 2013.01.31 11:11:00 -
[32] - Quote
Last time. ECM is balanced. You can counter it easily. /thread
"Also, your boobs " -á CCP Eterne, 2012
|
Ptraci
3 R Corporation The Irukandji
1208
|
Posted - 2013.01.31 11:15:00 -
[33] - Quote
Posting in a nerf ECM thread even after the ECM nerf. Some people are never happy it seems. ECM bothering you? Train your skills. As the owner of a falcon pilot I can confirm that it's harder to jam people now if they have the skill trained. Harder, not impossible. ECM is in the game, deal with it. |
Kryss Darkdust
The Skulls
227
|
Posted - 2013.01.31 11:22:00 -
[34] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:Gillia Winddancer wrote:The thing that people actually argue about is the random and boolean nature of ECM. Counters or not, effects of it are still boiled down to a very static success or fail with quite the severe consequences as a result - and the severity being quite a lot harsher on the player on the receiving end. Not a single other e-warfare module functions like this. MEEEEEEP, wrong. Do warp scramblers and disruptors have a static effect? Do webs and target painters count as e-war? Does ECM drive you mad cause u no shootin? What was the name of a mini cake produced by Nestle? YES.
Agreed.
Every E-warefare module out there has the potential to completetly change the results of a battle. Tracking Disruptors can render its target useless, Painters can make an otherwise impossible tank a soft target, webbers can prevent an otherwise fast target from getting away, smartbombs can render drones useless.. you name the module and I will show you a way to gain victory from it as well as counter it.
There is absolutly nothing wrong with ECM. In fact, I would say of the many ways E-warefare contributes to fights, ECM is often the most difficult and vulnerable of modules. Often fleets are designed to rely heavily on ECM's (I know a few of the fleets my crew forms are so).. a a couple of missed cycles can have catastrophic results.
ECM is often totted as an I win button, but this usually comes from frustrations of a recent loss. Besides, its not a module controlled by a single group of players, anyone can train it, anyone can put an ECM boat in their fleet and as such, its balance is that everyone has access to it.
More to the point, ECM is really not used all that often. I have been playing this game for 6-7 years and I can count on one hand the amount of times ECM's have been used successfully against me in a fight. Im suprised that people discuss the balance of this particular tactic when things like duel Basliks for example are far more commonly used tactics that make fights that shut down far more people in my experiance.
ECM I think is fine as it is, I mean its very effective and I certainly take advantage of it, but its hardly the I win button its made out to be, I have seen it fail plenty. The reality of Eve is that, if you don't love it like it is today, you should probobly go ahead and unsub.-á |
Chenlab Delta
Wise Guys Tribal Band
10
|
Posted - 2013.01.31 12:43:00 -
[35] - Quote
ECM needs a buff if anything... |
Kitty Bear
Disturbed Friends Of Diazepam A Point In Space
569
|
Posted - 2013.01.31 12:51:00 -
[36] - Quote
It is comparitively short ranged. ECM already has 2.5 counters.
The New [sensor-skill] Compensations. Mid/Lowslot ECCM Modules. SD outranges ECM.
|
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
7499
|
Posted - 2013.01.31 13:08:00 -
[37] - Quote
Kitty Bear wrote:It is comparitively short ranged. ECM already has 2.5 counters.
The New [sensor-skill] Compensations. Mid/Lowslot ECCM Modules. SD outranges ECM.
ECM is bad not because it's "unbalanced" (it isn't) but because it's anti-fun. It should be replaced with an effect that's worth doing but isn't so polarised between "no effect at all" and "I guess I'll just sit here until it wears off". Cries to "nerf ECM" miss the point; nerfing it won't make it any more fun; ECM isn't unfun because it works x% of the time and does nothing y% of the time, it's unfun because it's not fun whether it works or not. So the cries of "nerf" won't be satisfied with any value for x greater than 0. Nerfing just leaves Caldari, supposedly the EW specialists, without any EW.
So get rid of the current horribad ECM mechanic entirely and replace it with something different. If it's not defensive, then there needs to either be a secondary EW as well, or else Caldari EW ships need a combat buff. (Possibly not the Rook, depending on the exact nature of the EW) Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=192717&find=unread |
Kitty Bear
Disturbed Friends Of Diazepam A Point In Space
569
|
Posted - 2013.01.31 13:11:00 -
[38] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Kitty Bear wrote:It is comparitively short ranged. ECM already has 2.5 counters.
The New [sensor-skill] Compensations. Mid/Lowslot ECCM Modules. SD outranges ECM.
ECM is bad not because it's "unbalanced" (it isn't) but because it's anti-fun. It should be replaced with an effect that's worth doing but isn't so polarised between "no effect at all" and "I guess I'll just sit here until it wears off". Cries to "nerf ECM" miss the point; nerfing it won't make it any more fun; ECM isn't unfun because it works x% of the time and does nothing y% of the time, it's unfun because it's not fun whether it works or not. So the cries of "nerf" won't be satisfied with any value for x greater than 0. Nerfing just leaves Caldari, supposedly the EW specialists, without any EW. So get rid of the current horribad ECM mechanic entirely and replace it with something different. If it's not defensive, then there needs to either be a secondary EW as well, or else Caldari EW ships need a combat buff. (Possibly not the Rook, depending on the exact nature of the EW)
explain how you would also replace warp scramblers/disrupters please. as they work in exactly same way as ecm, if ecm needs to go solely from the way it works, then by your reasoning so do 'point mods' .......... |
NEONOVUS
Saablast Followers
311
|
Posted - 2013.01.31 13:36:00 -
[39] - Quote
Why not make ecm have 2 separate effects break all locks and set targets down by one.
Each one has a separate chance of happening with scripts to strengthen one or the other. I mean the lock breaker module shows that selective lock breaking is possible in game code. This way ecm is brought in line with other ewar while not being made to move in on other mods territory. By the same token it becomes a great anti logi weapon as you can prevent them from locking multiple targets at once. |
Whitehound
542
|
Posted - 2013.01.31 13:45:00 -
[40] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:ECM is bad not because it's "unbalanced" (it isn't) but because it's anti-fun. The counter play to ECM is in the tears you cry. They make bad guys weep and go soft. SCAM CAT - Titan Jump - I was there - Goon Dog |
|
Gillia Winddancer
Shiny Noble Crown Services
304
|
Posted - 2013.01.31 14:19:00 -
[41] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:Gillia Winddancer wrote:The thing that people actually argue about is the random and boolean nature of ECM. Counters or not, effects of it are still boiled down to a very static success or fail with quite the severe consequences as a result - and the severity being quite a lot harsher on the player on the receiving end. Not a single other e-warfare module functions like this. MEEEEEEP, wrong. Do warp scramblers and disruptors have a static effect? Do webs and target painters count as e-war? Does ECM drive you mad cause u no shootin? What was the name of a mini cake produced by Nestle? YES.
Propulsion jamming works as intended. Yeah, my bad - scramblers/disruptors are boolean as well (I tend to categorize propulsion jamming separately from all other e-war), but in my defence, I just have to say that no one complains about these modules cause you know...both sides can still shoot at each other freely and use other modules freely. Add on top that the number of options in order to escape these modules are quite more numerous than that for ECM. Who would have thought! So comparing these modules to ECM is indeed rather...stupid.
As for other e-warfare (weapon disruption, dampeners etc) - these have for starters a counter-module that benefits the user regardless whether it is used as a counter or not, unlike ECCM modules. And even if they don't have a counter module - like target painters, they do happen to have something else, namely falloff. Unlike ECM falloff, every single other module simply becomes less effective past falloff range. And guess what - the target can STILL shoot back without having to worry about the almighty RNG shutting them out completely in an instant! Isn't that simply AMAZING?
No, I still propose a rework on ECM and make it a constant effect that makes ships unlockable based on target sensor strength, resolution and distance to all other ships versus ship signature radius and distance to target. With enough ECM modules on a single target you would still get the same effect as the current ECM - a total lockout - and a permanent one at that. There would be no reason for anyone to complain because if you are solo and face off versus many players, you are most likely in deep trouble anyway. Same if you are called primary in a larger fight.
The only single difference would be that the opponents would have used more resources on you in order to get you to a state in which you cannot target anyone. No RNG entity spooking about leaving things to chance where a single module determines whether you are allowed to do anything or not.
|
Whitehound
542
|
Posted - 2013.01.31 14:45:00 -
[42] - Quote
Gillia Winddancer wrote:No, I still propose a rework on ECM and make it a constant effect that makes ships unlockable based on target sensor strength, resolution and distance to all other ships versus ship signature radius and distance to target. With enough ECM modules on a single target you would still get the same effect as the current ECM - a total lockout - and a permanent one at that. There would be no reason for anyone to complain because if you are solo and face off versus many players, you are most likely in deep trouble anyway. Same if you are called primary in a larger fight. Sensor dampeners already work too much like this.
ECM may not be fun for the one being jammed, but it is fun for the one who applies it. Why would you want to take this away?
Even more, there is no 100% guarantee for the jammer that the jams will always work and he gets a thrill out of it on top. Again, why take this away?
Is your problem that when you get jammed you then lack the patience to wait for the jamming to drop out? If so then do what I do: I reload my ammo, rep myself up as much as possible, get into a better position and wait for my chance. If I do not get my chance then I am too weak and fight another day. SCAM CAT - Titan Jump - I was there - Goon Dog |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
7499
|
Posted - 2013.01.31 14:48:00 -
[43] - Quote
Kitty Bear wrote:Malcanis wrote:Kitty Bear wrote:It is comparitively short ranged. ECM already has 2.5 counters.
The New [sensor-skill] Compensations. Mid/Lowslot ECCM Modules. SD outranges ECM.
ECM is bad not because it's "unbalanced" (it isn't) but because it's anti-fun. It should be replaced with an effect that's worth doing but isn't so polarised between "no effect at all" and "I guess I'll just sit here until it wears off". Cries to "nerf ECM" miss the point; nerfing it won't make it any more fun; ECM isn't unfun because it works x% of the time and does nothing y% of the time, it's unfun because it's not fun whether it works or not. So the cries of "nerf" won't be satisfied with any value for x greater than 0. Nerfing just leaves Caldari, supposedly the EW specialists, without any EW. So get rid of the current horribad ECM mechanic entirely and replace it with something different. If it's not defensive, then there needs to either be a secondary EW as well, or else Caldari EW ships need a combat buff. (Possibly not the Rook, depending on the exact nature of the EW) explain how you would also replace warp scramblers/disrupters please. as they work in exactly same way as ecm, if ecm needs to go solely from the way it works, then by your reasoning so do 'point mods' ..........
I think you're confusing EW in general with the specific form of EW called ECM. Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=192717&find=unread |
Gillia Winddancer
Shiny Noble Crown Services
304
|
Posted - 2013.01.31 15:13:00 -
[44] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:Gillia Winddancer wrote:No, I still propose a rework on ECM and make it a constant effect that makes ships unlockable based on target sensor strength, resolution and distance to all other ships versus ship signature radius and distance to target. With enough ECM modules on a single target you would still get the same effect as the current ECM - a total lockout - and a permanent one at that. There would be no reason for anyone to complain because if you are solo and face off versus many players, you are most likely in deep trouble anyway. Same if you are called primary in a larger fight. Sensor dampeners already work too much like this. ECM may not be fun for the one being jammed, but it is fun for the one who applies it. Why would you want to take this away? Even more, there is no 100% guarantee for the jammer that the jams will always work and he gets a thrill out of it on top. Again, why take this away? Is your problem that when you get jammed you then lack the patience to wait for the jamming to drop out? If so then do what I do: I reload my ammo, rep myself up as much as possible, get into a better position and wait for my chance. If I do not get my chance then I am too weak and fight another day.
Actually, no. Whilst dampeners affect sensor efficiency, ECM affects sensor functionality. Quite a distinct difference and one that should be kept. The former affects either sensor range and/or resolution whilst the latter would essentially affect the size of ships that you can lock on to, hiding the smallest ships first (therein the signature radius playing a role - seriously, this one statistic is SO incredibly under-used in EVE it is not even funny considering the insane amount of potential it holds)
Ok then. Why don't we reverse the logic right there. Let's have all modules be chance based. Weapon disruption: nothing happens if the roll fails. Weapons will always miss if roll succeeds. Stasis webifier: nothing happens if the roll fails. Target ship comes to a full stop if the roll succeeds. Target painter: nothing happens if the roll fails. Signature radius is doubled if the roll succeeds.
Sounds fun and exciting doesn't it? Should I do the same for the e-war modules that I've left out as well and see how much "fun" we can squeeze out of all the modules?
Patience is not the issue here. The issue is that the target can be completely neutralized for a period of 20 seconds by a single module that relies solely on luck. This would probably be less of an issue if say FoF missiles were slightly more effective and all turrets had some sort of blind fire mode at the very least. If ECM isn't to be changed (which IMO it should in order to put it in line with everything else) then the very least, blind firing should be demanded - even if it is not the most ideal solution. |
Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc
312
|
Posted - 2013.01.31 15:26:00 -
[45] - Quote
People keep thinking that ECM can be countered by ECCM like any other EW form in the game.. which is not true.
For example : 1 tracking disruptor can be countered by 1-2 tracking computers. In this case, you adapted your fit so that it counters the other side, and you end up in the same state than previously, like if nothing happened.
Same thing for Cap warfare : You're under 1-2 neutralizer, you ask one logi to have 1 energy transfer and you end up at the same level of cap than if there was no e-war on you.
About ECM, I can say that we are prepared against it : Our basi usually have two ECCM + one sensor backup low slot, and the sensor strength skill at 4-5... And yet, against a Falcon or a Rook you end up being extremely penalized even against only one module : It may not proc immediately, but after a few cycles you WILL end up being jammed, despite your counters. So, even for 3 modules to counter only one, in the end you're not in the same state than if there were no ECM on you... Because you will still run under the full 20 seconds cycle uncapacitating you, which will result in your other basi no longer repaired. Second basi dies, the first follows, and then the rest of the fleet. All because of ONE module that just proc no matter what you do to counter it. And even if the ennemy can't kill the other basi in 20 seconds, you still have to relock your target, reactivate the cap chain and so on... Another 5 seconds lost.
My solution for ECM :
- First point : make the ECCM low slot module give you the ability to passively instant target every target you had before the jamming cycle. Currently almost nobody uses the sensor backup.. for good reasons, it's underpowered ! This would fix the problem. Eventually, this ability wouldn't work if you have a two sensor dampener against you. You would then need two sensor backup to be able to use this ability, countered by three dampeners, and so on.. Exactly like warp core stabs.
- Second point : add a reflect effect on the ECCM, exactly like capacitor batteries : For each ECCM you have, it adds 20% (for the T2 version) of reflect when you're under a successful jamming cycle. The reflect is send to the ship that jammed you at the end of the cycle, so for a 20 seconds jam, you are unable to target anything for 16 seconds, then you can, and the falcon is unable to target for 4 seconds, beggining at the end of the jam effect (otherwise if he has a lowslot sensor backup, with first point ability, he would instant target again, and this wouldn't change anything). Eventually, if you're succesfuly jamming a target with one ECCM fitted during multiple cycles, the reflect 'stacks' and only applies when finally the target is no longer jammed. So that if you run three sucessful jam cycles on a target with one ECCM before failing, you're under the reflect effect for 12 seconds.
- Third point : A bit like triage/siege modes where activating your module is meaningful and subject to consequences, as long as you have an ECM cycle active (even if it failed), you can't cloak. This ensuring that Falcons are not just uncloaking-targeting-recloaking if they fail all their cycles with ennemies in relatively close range. G££ <= Me |
Whitehound
542
|
Posted - 2013.01.31 15:30:00 -
[46] - Quote
Gillia Winddancer wrote:Actually, no. Whilst dampeners affect sensor efficiency, ECM affects sensor functionality. ...
Ok then. Why don't we reverse the logic right there. Let's have all modules be chance based. ...
Patience is not the issue here. The issue is that the target can be completely neutralized for a period of 20 seconds by a single module that relies solely on luck... I said that it would work too much the same as sensor dampeners do. There is then no need to make all modules chance-based, because it would make everything too much alike as well.
ECM does not rely on luck alone. You know it just as well as I do. Try then to warp in a pod to a station. If you land at 0km distance or 400m distance is just a matter of luck. When you then get podkilled do you blame it on luck, too, and find it unacceptable? SCAM CAT - Titan Jump - I was there - Goon Dog |
Optimo Sebiestor
The Society Calyxes
144
|
Posted - 2013.01.31 15:38:00 -
[47] - Quote
I thougth i was going to see a video of someone getting pwnd with ecm in a small scale fleet battle, left dissapointed.. |
|
|
|
Pages: 1 2 :: [one page] |