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Herr Wilkus
Aggressive Salvage Services LLC
Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
662
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Posted - 2013.02.02 12:02:00 -
[1] - Quote
Short version:
Why are bounties paid out on Concord Killmails?
I exploit the hell out of this by plinking my own gankships, but it doesn't really make a lot of sense to me.
Shouldn't bounties get the same treatment as insurance, (ie, no payout) due to the 'godlike NPC' nature of Concord?
Technique:
A) Get bounties. Ganking, placing gank-alk into corp//alliance with a bounty escrow, etc.
B) Launch suicide attack as normal.
C) Use your scouting alt to 'attack' gank ship while it is locked down by Concord.
D) Collect bounty payout from the existing pool AND the loot. Use ISK to help buy more ganking gear.
E) Hope for more bounties, rinse repeat.
Here is where I am coming from:
I like bounties. My -10 suicide specialist tends to collect a lot of them. They are a pirate 'badge of honor'
A tangible record of how many people's day you ruined.
Now, I'm glad the new system has been 'fixed', are tied to losses - and bounties have a point. They certainly show up much more often now, as a result.
**Side note: The new 'bounty received' notifications are terrific. Their instantaneous nature make it quite easy to pinpoint which butthurt miner/hauler put the bounty on you - and allows the pirate to victimize them with locators for further gank attacks. After all, if they mad enough to put a bounty on you, it means your suicide attack hit home - and further ganks might push them right over the edge and cause them to beat their kids, or better yet, quit EVE.
But here is the current problem with bounty payouts:
People whoring onto Concord KM's drain bounties (and thus my bounty e-peen).
I've discovered that I can exploit this by simply 'Whoring' my own Concord KM with my own ganking spotter! (collecting my own bounty simply by locking and shooting the gankship once with an alt before it attacks, or while it is stricken by Concord. Miner bounties actually subsidize my ganking operations...... )
But I drain my own bounties because ANY random bystander can collect bounty credit simply by plinking a GCC'd target. But I'd rather build up a nice fat sexy bounty - rather than simply watch it drained off in the normal course of doing business.
Aside from that: it just doesn't really make any sense in the context of the 'Godlike NPC' nature of Concord.
They are guaranteed to show up, completely disable your ship and drones, and blow up your ship in a robotic fashion. After recent Concord buffs....they even prevent you from warping to a Safe-Spot or ejecting from your ship prior to the explosion.
Simply put, other players played no meaningful part in your destruction, as evading Concord is considered an 'exploit'.
That said, perhaps bounties should be disabled for Concord Kills in the same way that insurance is disabled for Concord losses. Think it would repair a serious flaw in the new bounty system. |
Whitehound
607
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Posted - 2013.02.02 12:16:00 -
[2] - Quote
I agree, while for now it is new and still somewhat experimental, as well as funny, are there a few things that leave questions open. Bounties should not be paid when CONCORD was involved, possibly when faction Navy NPCs and customs office NPCs are involved either, to avoid any kind of exploits from either side. Do a clean kill or don't get paid. When you don't get paid will the ISKs still be there, and you will at least get the kill and loot.
Just my opinion.
I was wondering, are corporation and alliance bounties being paid out when their members shoot each other?
SCAM CAT - Titan Jump - I was there - Goon Dog |
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
531
|
Posted - 2013.02.02 12:25:00 -
[3] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:I was wondering, are corporation and alliance bounties being paid out when their members shoot each other?
What happens when one (or+) members in said corporation/alliance have no bounty on him and get killed? 
Gò¡Gê¬Gò«n+ên+¦n++n+¦n+ëGò¡Gê¬Gò«-á don't haten++ |
Whitehound
607
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Posted - 2013.02.02 12:28:00 -
[4] - Quote
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:Whitehound wrote:I was wondering, are corporation and alliance bounties being paid out when their members shoot each other? What happens when one (or+) members in said corporation/alliance have no bounty on him and get killed?
Your question makes no sense, with or without wink, doesn't matter. Try again.
SCAM CAT - Titan Jump - I was there - Goon Dog |
Lister Vindaloo
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
0
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Posted - 2013.02.02 12:29:00 -
[5] - Quote
Sounds like the only problem that needs sorting out is to stop bounties being paid to alts. If your Corpies gank you for the iskies, htfu! If a hi sec miner gets a few isk for somehow getting a shot in, good on him. If the only way you can make cash is to shoot yourself first, that's pretty pathetic. You are effectively trying to remove bounty layout on hisec gankers, htfu. |
Whitehound
607
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Posted - 2013.02.02 12:38:00 -
[6] - Quote
Lister Vindaloo wrote:Sounds like the only problem that needs sorting out is to stop bounties being paid to alts. If your Corpies gank you for the iskies, htfu! If a hi sec miner gets a few isk for somehow getting a shot in, good on him. If the only way you can make cash is to shoot yourself first, that's pretty pathetic. As I said before htfu
If corp members go for the individual, player-bound bounties of each other then I believe it is ok, because it should not make a difference to the one who placed the bounty. If this is an alt or really another player should not matter and we should not start distinguishing between alts and real players now when we have not done so in the past.
However corporation- and alliance-bound bounties should not be paid out to their members. I might as well suicide my ship or self-destruct and demand to get a payout from my player-bound bounty, too, because this is pretty much the same thing.
SCAM CAT - Titan Jump - I was there - Goon Dog |
Herr Wilkus
Aggressive Salvage Services LLC
Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
662
|
Posted - 2013.02.02 12:43:00 -
[7] - Quote
Lister Vindaloo wrote:Sounds like the only problem that needs sorting out is to stop bounties being paid to alts. If your Corpies gank you for the iskies, htfu! If a hi sec miner gets a few isk for somehow getting a shot in, good on him. If the only way you can make cash is to shoot yourself first, that's pretty pathetic. As I said before htfu
First, there is no way to distinguish between an 'alt' and any other player.
Second, doesn't matter if its the ganker, the miner, OR a 3rd party whoring in on the Concord KM. None of them were REALLY responsible for the kill. You seem to be making a strange value judgement here - saying that its OK for the miner to benefit, simply because he's a miner - even if the mechanic makes no sense, and gankers are the actual beneficiary (or, in some cases - will be after reading this post)
Third, hardly pathetic. If you can score free Miner ISK by plinking your own 'doomed' gankship with a target painter or A/C before the attack, why not?
HTFU? That doesn't even make sense. Like I said, gankers are the beneficiary. Why, because - like a kamikaze: suicide gankers already know that they are going to lose their ship. Its expected. Result:
Placing a bounty on a suicide ganker is kind of like putting money directly into his wallet.
And I'm perfectly OK with that.
But I'd prefer to have a large bounty to stroke my E-peen, rather than subsidized ganking. A bounty that gets rewarded to the person who actually caused me to lose something I didn't plan on losing, rather than a system where bounties are simply 'idiot taxes' - on people who don't realize its a broken system. Kind of like what we had before.
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Solstice Project
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
2682
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Posted - 2013.02.02 12:48:00 -
[8] - Quote
WAHHWAHH PEOPLE ***** ON MY LOSSMAILS AND I LOSE BOUNTY !!!
You say "suicide specialist" and on the same page admit that
you need an alt for your "specialist" to operate.
You're such a loser.... *shakeshead* ... and a whiny one, too.
Inappropriate signature removed. Spitfire |
Lister Vindaloo
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2013.02.02 12:56:00 -
[9] - Quote
Solstice +1
All I'm saying is if you want to gank in hi sec expect to lose your precious bounty, I have no soft spot for miners but if their hobgoblin gets a shot in deal with it rather than crying about how hard done by the ganking community is by the evil iron fist of the hisec care bear miners.
Gankers tears taste like honey sprinkled with powdered sugar... |
Mag's
the united
Negative Ten.
13924
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Posted - 2013.02.02 13:13:00 -
[10] - Quote
Bounties are a player led mechanic, so the payment reflects that. Concord is irrelevant in this regard.
Vote Malcanis for CSM 8 |
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Herr Wilkus
Aggressive Salvage Services LLC
Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
662
|
Posted - 2013.02.02 13:14:00 -
[11] - Quote
Solstice Project wrote:WAHHWAHH PEOPLE ***** ON MY LOSSMAILS AND I LOSE BOUNTY !!!
You say "suicide specialist" and on the same page admit that
you need an alt for your "specialist" to operate.
You're such a loser.... *shakeshead* ... and a whiny one, too.
Nice sub-literate trolling from the small time frigate-popper. Oh, sorry, I mean 'terrorist'.  I forgot that you think you are special.
Actually, first time I noticed my bounty total go down, it WAS a miner with drones set to aggressive. I think they were Acolyte I's. Of course, once I figured out what happened - it was a simple to exploit the system and place the rest of the bounty directly into my own pocket.
Perhaps it should be called the "Miner's Suicide Ganker Appreciation Escrow"
Now, I'd prefer to have a large bounty - and a system that makes sense. And that would mean disabling bounty payouts for Concord kills.
Oh, and of course I use alts for ganking. Only an idiot would try to fly a freighter in highsec with the new KR system.
If anything, CCP's Crimewatch has pushed suicide ganking further into '-10 alt territory'.
A) Expanded killrights preclude flying freighters or other industrial ships on the same char, even with neutral Sec status.
B) increased Sec status penalties (kill rights/full penalty for failed attempts, not just 'kills'), makes sec status repair more difficult and time consuming.
CCP obviously wants more people to gank with -10's. I am happy to oblige them. |
Whitehound
607
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Posted - 2013.02.02 13:33:00 -
[12] - Quote
Mag's wrote:Bounties are a player led mechanic, so the payment reflects that. Concord is irrelevant in this regard.
Snipped disrespectful comment. -- ISD LackOfFaith
It is not what we are discussing here. We are discussing what bounties mean for players and as a consequence of the meaning do players then place bounties or they don't. Discussing the meaning of bounties can help in finding a better meaning and possibly to more bounties being placed.
SCAM CAT - Titan Jump - I was there - Goon Dog |
Herr Wilkus
Aggressive Salvage Services LLC
Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
662
|
Posted - 2013.02.02 13:44:00 -
[13] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:Mag's wrote:Bounties are a player led mechanic, so the payment reflects that. Concord is irrelevant in this regard. Snipped disrespectful comment. -- ISD LackOfFaithIt is not what we are discussing here. We are discussing what bounties mean for players and as a consequence of the meaning do players then place bounties or they don't. Discussing the meaning of bounties can help in finding a better meaning and possibly to more bounties being placed.
You get it.
Suicide gankers get a lot of bounties because ganking is one of the things that makes people mad.
Yet, I've just demonstrated how trivially easy it is for gankers to put that money directly into their own pocket.
And I encourage any suicide ganker (who is going to be losing ships anyway....) to do the same.
Still, I understand this isn't how the system is meant to work. And I DO like having a large bounty. (after all, it looks good and its not MY money...)
But if bounty payouts are awarded whenever a Concord KM is whored, it simply places me in a position where I simply have to ***** my own KM to collect the bounty - and I have nothing to show off.
Removing payouts for Concord KMs would
A) prevent gankers from easily collecting their own bounties.
B) others from collecting bounties, despite Concord doing all the work.
C) Provide bounty rewards for people who actually earned it - killed something I didn't intend to lose first.
D) Allows gankers to maintain high bounty totals and making them targets.
Apologies for the intrusion, just editing the quote. -- ISD LackOfFaith |
Mag's
the united
Negative Ten.
13924
|
Posted - 2013.02.02 13:49:00 -
[14] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:Mag's wrote:Bounties are a player led mechanic, so the payment reflects that. Concord is irrelevant in this regard. Snipped disrespectful comment. -- ISD LackOfFaithIt is not what we are discussing here. We are discussing what bounties mean for players and as a consequence of the meaning do players then place bounties or they don't. Discussing the meaning of bounties can help in finding a better meaning and possibly to more bounties being placed. Actually the OP states something as an exploit, even though it's not. Then talks about removing payouts from concord kills. So yes, I am stating the obvious, as concord is IRRELEVANT in the regard of bounty payouts.
Snipped disrespectful comment. -- ISD LackOfFaith
Vote Malcanis for CSM 8 |
Whitehound
607
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Posted - 2013.02.02 13:50:00 -
[15] - Quote
Herr Wilkus wrote:A) prevent gankers from easily collecting their own bounties.
B) others from collecting bounties, despite Concord doing all the work.
C) Provide bounty rewards for people who actually earned it - killed something I didn't intend to lose first.
D) Allows gankers to maintain high bounty totals and making them targets.
E) Encourage miners to place bounties more often when gankers cannot leech on their own bounties.
SCAM CAT - Titan Jump - I was there - Goon Dog |
Whitehound
607
|
Posted - 2013.02.02 13:53:00 -
[16] - Quote
Mag's wrote:Actually the OP states something as an exploit, even though it's not. Then talks about removing payouts from concord kills. So yes, I am stating the obvious, as concord is IRRELEVANT in the regard of bounty payouts.
But thanks anyway, Captain Missed the Point.
We are discussing opinions here and you don't seem to have an opinion other than perhaps that we should not be sharing our opinions here without your consent.
Go troll elsewhere.
SCAM CAT - Titan Jump - I was there - Goon Dog |
NEONOVUS
Saablast Followers
314
|
Posted - 2013.02.02 14:07:00 -
[17] - Quote
Simple fix the distribution of the bounty payout is based on the percentage damage you did.
0 damage 0 payout
Would also act as a lovely ISK sink as the money gets paid to Concord.
Also can we get the km linked when collection notifications are sent?
Would be very nice. |
Ildryn
The Inf1dels
91
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Posted - 2013.02.02 14:14:00 -
[18] - Quote
If the miner gets a bounty payout for a concord assisted kill.
Then by the same token we should get insurance if the miner got a hit in before concord pops the ship.
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NEONOVUS
Saablast Followers
314
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Posted - 2013.02.02 14:31:00 -
[19] - Quote
Ildryn wrote:If the miner gets a bounty payout for a concord assisted kill.
Then by the same token we should get insurance if the miner got a hit in before concord pops the ship.
Sorry but you went criminal first.
Might I interest you in a kill right? |
Rengerel en Distel
Amarr Science and Industry
1144
|
Posted - 2013.02.02 14:38:00 -
[20] - Quote
As you've already said, the game can't tell the difference between an alt and any other player. Anyone on the KM has to receive part of the bounty, or the whole crimewatch/bounty hunting thing is useless. Yes, you can abuse it with your alt, but they have to allow that to make it work at all.
With the increase in shiptoasting, the Report timer needs to be shortened.
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Mag's
the united
Negative Ten.
13924
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Posted - 2013.02.02 14:51:00 -
[21] - Quote
Rengerel en Distel wrote:As you've already said, the game can't tell the difference between an alt and any other player. Anyone on the KM has to receive part of the bounty, or the whole crimewatch/bounty hunting thing is useless. Yes, you can abuse it with your alt, but they have to allow that to make it work at all.
Indeed and let's face it, it's not a game breaking amount of ISK. It's simply not worth breaking the mechanic for it.
Vote Malcanis for CSM 8 |
Charlepetit LaJoie
Trust Me Ltd
228
|
Posted - 2013.02.02 15:17:00 -
[22] - Quote
If CCP were simply to stop bounty payouts for ships killed with Concord involvement, that would make possible a small exploit.
Suppose you are fighting a war target named Loser Larry, near a high-sec jumpgate. Since Loser Larry is a valid war target, Concord is not involved . Loser Larry is about to go down in flames and you will get rich from his bounty.
A neutral ship pops into view. Loser Larry takes one quick shot at the neutral ship. Loser Larry has now committed a criminal act, and Concord rushes to the scene and kills him.
You collect no bounty. Loser Larry still ends up dead, but he laughs in your face because he managed to cheat you out of the bounty.
NEONOVUS wrote:Simple fix the distribution of the bounty payout is based on the percentage damage you did.
0 damage 0 payout
That is a good idea, except that it cheats pilots who participate in the fight with warp scramblers, remote repair, ECM, etc., instead of raw damage.
I'm not smart enough to have thought of a solution. |
Whitehound
607
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Posted - 2013.02.02 15:19:00 -
[23] - Quote
NEONOVUS wrote:Ildryn wrote:If the miner gets a bounty payout for a concord assisted kill.
Then by the same token we should get insurance if the miner got a hit in before concord pops the ship.
Sorry but you went criminal first. Might I interest you in a kill right?
You went criminal. Period. Not first or last or whatever. An order seems rather irrelevant.
If the insurance payout is denied, because it is a part of the punishment for being a criminal then this can be acceptable, but it doesn't have to.
But why should the miner with his Hobgoblin I, not doing enough DPS to fight off the attack, then get the bounty that really should be going to CONCORD? If this is a part of the ganker's punishment, to reward the miner with a payment, then what about those miners who get ganked by players with no bounties on them? Do these miners then get free ISKs out of CONCORD's retirement fund, or are they just unlucky, or why should they get nothing at all?
SCAM CAT - Titan Jump - I was there - Goon Dog |
Whitehound
607
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Posted - 2013.02.02 15:24:00 -
[24] - Quote
Charlepetit LaJoie wrote:If CCP were simply to stop bounty payouts for ships killed with Concord involvement, that would make possible a small exploit.
Suppose you are fighting a war target named Loser Larry, near a high-sec jumpgate. Since Loser Larry is a valid war target, Concord is not involved . Loser Larry is about to go down in flames and you will get rich from his bounty.
A neutral ship pops into view. Loser Larry takes one quick shot at the neutral ship. Loser Larry has now committed a criminal act, and Concord rushes to the scene and kills him.
You collect no bounty. Loser Larry still ends up dead, but he laughs in your face because he managed to cheat you out of the bounty.
Right, Loser Larry will have lost his ship and the loot is still yours.
Then replace CONCORD in your example with a third player. If the third player kills Loser Larry before you do then you will also not get a bounty. So what is the difference? Loser Larry could be laughing the whole time, shooting at everybody and everything, because he is simply crazy.
SCAM CAT - Titan Jump - I was there - Goon Dog |
Karl Hobb
Stellar Ore Refinery and Crematorium
938
|
Posted - 2013.02.02 15:54:00 -
[25] - Quote
I don't think the system should be changed. It's sweetly ironic, and can also benefit the gankee if he's not AFK, to leave the system as-is. Additionally, there are way too many edge-case exploits that will pop up with changes to remove payout on CONCORD involvement.
If you're not already part of a bloc, this is the best guy for CSM8. |
NEONOVUS
Saablast Followers
314
|
Posted - 2013.02.02 15:56:00 -
[26] - Quote
Charlepetit LaJoie wrote:NEONOVUS wrote:Simple fix the distribution of the bounty payout is based on the percentage damage you did.
0 damage 0 payout That is a good idea, except that it cheats pilots who participate in the fight with warp scramblers, remote repair, ECM, etc., instead of raw damage. I'm not smart enough to have thought of a solution.
Easy they need to bring DPS or be reliant on the good graces of others.
Or you know, be in the fleet.
Because that is how fleets work right now, though the ISK is divided absolutely instead of on an act basis.
So the code is at least possible. |
Herr Wilkus
Aggressive Salvage Services LLC
Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
662
|
Posted - 2013.02.02 16:06:00 -
[27] - Quote
Mags, we aren't talking about a trivial amount of ISK.
Because Alliance/corp wide bounties are included, not just personal ones.
Something around 400M ISK in bounties had accumulated on the alliance since Retribution hit.
After I realized how to game the system, I managed to claim almost the entire principal over the course of several suicide ganks.
(Which totally subsidized the costs of ganking, BTW.....)
This applies to corporation bounties as well, as you can easily move the -10 ganker into the affect Corp, drain the pool of bounties, then move it back.
Its kind of hilarious actually.
I bet people didn't realize that in Crimewatch, CCP actually just reintroduced "insurance" for suicide gankers.
Except this time, its funded by carebears who think they are getting revenge.
Actually, you know what? Never mind. Forget I said anything at all.
Anyway, just keep those bounties coming. Suicide ganking is fun. Suicide ganking cheaply - even better. |
Whitehound
607
|
Posted - 2013.02.02 16:10:00 -
[28] - Quote
NEONOVUS wrote:Charlepetit LaJoie wrote:NEONOVUS wrote:Simple fix the distribution of the bounty payout is based on the percentage damage you did.
0 damage 0 payout That is a good idea, except that it cheats pilots who participate in the fight with warp scramblers, remote repair, ECM, etc., instead of raw damage. I'm not smart enough to have thought of a solution. Easy they need to bring DPS or be reliant on the good graces of others. Or you know, be in the fleet. Because that is how fleets work right now, though the ISK is divided absolutely instead of on an act basis. So the code is at least possible.
To add to this, are bounties shared with the entire fleet, which eliminates the problem with logistics and e-war when everyone is in the same fleet.
Warp scrambler then already do not count for the final blow and never will, simply because they don't do damage and don't kill. Further are there hardly any ships that have no weapons at all, making it a minor problem at best.
The truth is, the suggestion improves the mechanics and introduces no new disadvantage when compared with the current mechanics. It is simply better ...
SCAM CAT - Titan Jump - I was there - Goon Dog |
NEONOVUS
Saablast Followers
314
|
Posted - 2013.02.02 16:26:00 -
[29] - Quote
Herr Wilkus wrote:Mags, we aren't talking about a trivial amount of ISK. Because Alliance/corp wide bounties are included, not just personal ones. Something around 400M ISK in bounties had accumulated on the alliance since Retribution hit. After I realized how to game the system, I managed to claim almost the entire principal over the course of several suicide ganks. (Which totally subsidized the costs of ganking, BTW.....) This applies to corporation bounties as well, as you can easily move the -10 ganker into the affect Corp, drain the pool of bounties, then move it back. Its kind of hilarious actually.
I bet people didn't realize that in Crimewatch, CCP actually just reintroduced "insurance" for suicide gankers. Except this time, its funded by carebears who think they are getting revenge. Actually, you know what? Never mind. Forget I said anything at all. Anyway, just keep those bounties coming. Suicide ganking is fun. Suicide ganking cheaply - even better.
Bounties are hard capped at 20% value lost.
So unless you mean reduced cost of ganks then you arent thinking this through enough. |
TyeBaak
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
2
|
Posted - 2013.02.02 16:26:00 -
[30] - Quote
As explained above, you're simply trading one exploit* for a different exploit with the described change. The only difference is that you (OP) get what you want with the change (higher/extended bounty).
It's just a game of whack-a-mole as, given the time and resources of the players, there will always be such "edge cases" and for now, CCP feels this is the optimal solution. The may change it to give a single player what he wants (it's not unprecedented) but overall seems much ado about nothing.
No change to mechanics effects a single player. There are always winners and losers.
*I wouldn't call this an "exploit" in gaming terms. I'd say "working as intended" and "gaming the system." As evidence, if this were a true "exploit" then I'm sure this thread would vanish.
TB |
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