I was wondering, are corporation and alliance bounties being paid out when their members shoot each other?

What happens when one (or+) members in said corporation/alliance have no bounty on him and get killed?

Sounds like the only problem that needs sorting out is to stop bounties being paid to alts. If your Corpies gank you for the iskies, htfu! If a hi sec miner gets a few isk for somehow getting a shot in, good on him. If the only way you can make cash is to shoot yourself first, that's pretty pathetic. As I said before htfu

Sounds like the only problem that needs sorting out is to stop bounties being paid to alts. If your Corpies gank you for the iskies, htfu! If a hi sec miner gets a few isk for somehow getting a shot in, good on him. If the only way you can make cash is to shoot yourself first, that's pretty pathetic. As I said before htfu

WAHHWAHH PEOPLE ***** ON MY LOSSMAILS AND I LOSE BOUNTY !!!

You say "suicide specialist" and on the same page admit that
you need an alt for your "specialist" to operate.

You're such a loser.... *shakeshead* ... and a whiny one, too.

Bounties are a player led mechanic, so the payment reflects that. Concord is irrelevant in this regard.

Snipped disrespectful comment. -- ISD LackOfFaith

It is not what we are discussing here. We are discussing what bounties mean for players and as a consequence of the meaning do players then place bounties or they don't. Discussing the meaning of bounties can help in finding a better meaning and possibly to more bounties being placed.

Snipped disrespectful comment. -- ISD LackOfFaith

It is not what we are discussing here. We are discussing what bounties mean for players and as a consequence of the meaning do players then place bounties or they don't. Discussing the meaning of bounties can help in finding a better meaning and possibly to more bounties being placed.

A) prevent gankers from easily collecting their own bounties.
B) others from collecting bounties, despite Concord doing all the work.
C) Provide bounty rewards for people who actually earned it - killed something I didn't intend to lose first.
D) Allows gankers to maintain high bounty totals and making them targets.

Actually the OP states something as an exploit, even though it's not. Then talks about removing payouts from concord kills. So yes, I am stating the obvious, as concord is IRRELEVANT in the regard of bounty payouts.

But thanks anyway, Captain Missed the Point.

If the miner gets a bounty payout for a concord assisted kill.
Then by the same token we should get insurance if the miner got a hit in before concord pops the ship.

As you've already said, the game can't tell the difference between an alt and any other player. Anyone on the KM has to receive part of the bounty, or the whole crimewatch/bounty hunting thing is useless. Yes, you can abuse it with your alt, but they have to allow that to make it work at all.

Simple fix the distribution of the bounty payout is based on the percentage damage you did.
0 damage 0 payout

Sorry but you went criminal first.
Might I interest you in a kill right?

If CCP were simply to stop bounty payouts for ships killed with Concord involvement, that would make possible a small exploit.

Suppose you are fighting a war target named Loser Larry, near a high-sec jumpgate. Since Loser Larry is a valid war target, Concord is not involved . Loser Larry is about to go down in flames and you will get rich from his bounty.

A neutral ship pops into view. Loser Larry takes one quick shot at the neutral ship. Loser Larry has now committed a criminal act, and Concord rushes to the scene and kills him.

You collect no bounty. Loser Larry still ends up dead, but he laughs in your face because he managed to cheat you out of the bounty.

That is a good idea, except that it cheats pilots who participate in the fight with warp scramblers, remote repair, ECM, etc., instead of raw damage.

I'm not smart enough to have thought of a solution.

Easy they need to bring DPS or be reliant on the good graces of others.
Or you know, be in the fleet.
Because that is how fleets work right now, though the ISK is divided absolutely instead of on an act basis.
So the code is at least possible.

Mags, we aren't talking about a trivial amount of ISK.
Because Alliance/corp wide bounties are included, not just personal ones.

Something around 400M ISK in bounties had accumulated on the alliance since Retribution hit.
After I realized how to game the system, I managed to claim almost the entire principal over the course of several suicide ganks.
(Which totally subsidized the costs of ganking, BTW.....)

This applies to corporation bounties as well, as you can easily move the -10 ganker into the affect Corp, drain the pool of bounties, then move it back.

Its kind of hilarious actually.
I bet people didn't realize that in Crimewatch, CCP actually just reintroduced "insurance" for suicide gankers.

Except this time, its funded by carebears who think they are getting revenge.
Actually, you know what? Never mind. Forget I said anything at all.

Anyway, just keep those bounties coming. Suicide ganking is fun. Suicide ganking cheaply - even better.

Bounties are hard capped at 20% value lost.
So unless you mean reduced cost of ganks then you arent thinking this through enough.

Bounties are hard capped at 20% value lost.
So unless you mean reduced cost of ganks then you arent thinking this through enough.

... There are always winners and losers.

*I wouldn't call this an "exploit" in gaming terms. I'd say "working as intended" and "gaming the system." As evidence, if this were a true "exploit" then I'm sure this thread would vanish.

TB

Mags, we aren't talking about a trivial amount of ISK.
Because Alliance/corp wide bounties are included, not just personal ones.

Something around 400M ISK in bounties had accumulated on the alliance since Retribution hit.
After I realized how to game the system, I managed to claim almost the entire principal over the course of several suicide ganks.
(Which totally subsidized the costs of ganking, BTW.....)

This applies to corporation bounties as well, as you can easily move the -10 ganker into the affect Corp, drain the pool of bounties, then move it back.

Its kind of hilarious actually.
I bet people didn't realize that in Crimewatch, CCP actually just reintroduced "insurance" for suicide gankers.

Except this time, its funded by carebears who think they are getting revenge.
Actually, you know what? Never mind. Forget I said anything at all.

Anyway, just keep those bounties coming. Suicide ganking is fun. Suicide ganking cheaply - even better.

OK, give some figures on what you flew and how much ISK you got from it.

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I'll give you a figure.

I have placed a 1b ISK bounty on CODE. (the guys of the New Order). Now this bounty has slowly gone down to 961m ISKs and will continue to melt away.

Looking at the kills on eve-kill.net do most of their losses (a catalyst) list a miner with a Hobgoblin I and CONCORD.

The bounty is being paid out to the victims! This was not my intention when I placed the bounty. I wanted it to be fun and so that it pays those players who go after them, but not to compensate the victims for their losses.

In short: WTF?

I don't see a problem with that tbh. Looks like a funny way for the victim, to give the aggressor the bird.

The victim did not place the bounty. I did! Where is my fun?

You can collect 20% of your loss via bounty right? Not a big issue then

I can't imagine that they intend for people to get a bounty payout when CONCORD destroys the ship.

I though tthe person with the final blow was awarded the payout anyways?


It's a little strange to see people say this is ok, the OP demonstrated how to take advantage of the mechanics in ways that can't possibly be intended. That's not emergent gameplay, that's exploting the mechanics for your benefit.

As far as where you fun is, well that's your concern tbh.

The bounty is a separate mechanic from concord punishment. As has been shown by the OP, the payout is small and not worth worrying about. Remember, whomever is suicide ganking, isn't going to be winning any ISK wars with this and it will not entice them to fly expensive suicide ganking ships. It simply wouldn't make any financial sense.

It really is a none issue.

The bounty is a separate mechanic from concord punishment. As has been shown by the OP, the payout is small and not worth worrying about. Remember, whomever is suicide ganking, isn't going to be winning any ISK wars with this and it will not entice them to fly expensive suicide ganking ships. It simply wouldn't make any financial sense.

It really is a none issue.

They're ganking anyway, bounty or no bounty. It's plain stupid that the bounty someone placed on them winds up being paid to them as a subsidy that lets them gank more and spend less. It's also a trivial fix to make, if they would bother to address it.

It's not actually trivial. Some players with bounties, will only ever be able to be shot and have some of their bounty collected, with Concord intervention. You're basically asking for bounties to be pointless, in this regard.

As bounties are what other players deem to be worth shooting them for, Concord is irrelevant in that regard. Whether they were involved or not.

So remove concord and flag the guy FFA under the current rules.

If you're ganked your ganked, and now that gankers bounty has a real meaning.

It's not actually trivial. Some players with bounties, will only ever be able to be shot and have some of their bounty collected, with Concord intervention. You're basically asking for bounties to be pointless, in this regard.

As bounties are what other players deem to be worth shooting them for, Concord is irrelevant in that regard. Whether they were involved or not.

Trading alts can sit docked forever at a station, with a bounty on them, where no CONCORD will ever get them. This is not our concern but CCP's and it should not be yours either.

The fix is then trivial. Bounties are being paid out for every kill, which means it is directly connected to the creation of killmails. At least this is the understanding that I got from the devblog. So they only need to check the kill for a participation of CONCORD, faction navy, corp police, customs police and whatever else is there and simply hold the payment.

It's not actually trivial. Some players with bounties, will only ever be able to be shot and have some of their bounty collected, with Concord intervention. You're basically asking for bounties to be pointless, in this regard.

As bounties are what other players deem to be worth shooting them for, Concord is irrelevant in that regard. Whether they were involved or not.

I guess the thing is, is if you are 'shot - with Concord intervention' - did you really 'do' anything? The ganker's ship was doomed, and you really didn't have any affect on the proceedings at all. By the time Concord gets itself on the KM, the gankship is immobilized and completely incapable of doing anything else.

What eludes me, is why would -10 pirates in lowsec even care? Concord doesn't kill people in low sec.
There is a precedent: Removal of insurance in the case of a Concord death. Would stand to reason that bounty payouts could be easily nullified in the same way. After all, the recipient, be it miner, ganker or 3rd party didn't REALLY do anything at all, thats why its called KM whoring. Its just especially ridiculous in the context of omnipotent Concord.

I'm actually arguing against my own self interest here, simply for vanities sake - being able to maintain a 'high score' bounty.
But we aren't talking about an insignificant amount of money, in the aggregate.

-10 Gank alts do not have to rat between sorties. They are ridden quite hard, only limited by the 15 min GCC timer and finding targets.

Insurance is a NPC led mechanic, bounties are a player led mechanic.

So why are bounties paid out when NPCs did the kill?

Because they are not players?

Meaning what?

Why should concord involvement, have any relevance to a player led mechanic? Why should the payout not go to the player, also involved?

Because the kill was not done by a player!

But he was involved and it's a player led mechanic. NPC involvement in regards to a bounty payout, is irrelevant.

Are you asking to break the whole system, over a few mil?

The only thing I can see being a problem is the 'self-Concorddokken' to avoid a bounty payout.

Took this long for people to work out how to exploit the system. (Or at least for someone to post it on the Forums).
Well done CCP, thats a robust system.
Now fix this exploit please that removes any kind of consequence. Since in this situation the 'cost' of the ship is being removed from the equation, since it is being used for a suicide gank so being lost either way. So the gankers are able to farm any bounties on them and make a 'profit' effectively.

Simple fix. If concord on mail, don't pay out bounty. Does it mean that that miner who got drones onto you doesn't get a bounty also. Sure. I'll live with that as a part time miner. Surviving the gank is the main profit for the miner, any bounty on a gank destroyer is negligible anyway compared to the loss of a barge/exhumer. And the ganker can make profit every single time he ganks since he knows it's coming.

And Whitehound - if I remember correctly from last year - was more or less rabidly against anything ganking/griefing related, while thats all I really do. Yet we agree on this.

Simple fix. If concord on mail, don't pay out bounty.

I agree, while for now it is new and still somewhat experimental, as well as funny, are there a few things that leave questions open. Bounties should not be paid when CONCORD was involved, possibly when faction Navy NPCs and customs office NPCs are involved either, to avoid any kind of exploits from either side. Do a clean kill or don't get paid. When you don't get paid will the ISKs still be there, and you will at least get the kill and loot.

Just my opinion.

I was wondering, are corporation and alliance bounties being paid out when their members shoot each other?

If no bounties are going to be paid if concord is involved, you bet that when I am fighting in high sec and I may loose, I am gonna shoot an innocent by-standard and get concorded to keep the bounty away from the foe trying to pop me

If no bounties are going to be paid if concord is involved, you bet that when I am fighting in high sec and I may loose, I am gonna shoot an innocent by-standard and get concorded to keep the bounty away from the foe trying to pop me

Please, do this. You still have the bounty on you and you die faster than I could probably ever kill you, because, you know, you just zap yourself with the help of CONCORD. Nothing kills faster and less effort for me. If that's what it then means can the bounty stay and you can always get yourself CONCORDed.

But he was involved and it's a player led mechanic. NPC involvement in regards to a bounty payout, is irrelevant.

Wait, Whitehound, you said that you placed a 1 Billion ISK bounty on CODE????

Guess where my suicide alt is going now...!!!

I need to get me some of those free Whitehound bux!!!!!
Booyah.
Thanks for the donation, you'll be subsidizing my ganking ops for weeks, buddy.

The no CONCORD on kill mail thing wouldn't work any better because there will be people who make it a point to get CONCORDed if it means making attacking them unprofitable. They could in theory use IP to reduce the number of abuses by gankers as it'd require multiple computers with at least one a proxy server. Don't really see a downside to doing that much.

Would you really choose to commit suicide, earn a sec. status hit and keep the bounty on your head only to deny someone the 20% payout? How long do you think you can do this before you give up?

I don't know, how long are suicide gankers able to keep their sec status?

Some can do this for a very long time. Of course, if you are really good at PvP then you could possibly keep your bounty forever!

Simple fix the distribution of the bounty payout is based on the percentage damage you did.
0 damage 0 payout
Would also act as a lovely ISK sink as the money gets paid to Concord.
Also can we get the km linked when collection notifications are sent?
Would be very nice.

The new 'bounty received' notifications are terrific.[/b] Their instantaneous nature make it quite easy to pinpoint which butthurt miner/hauler put the bounty on you - and allows the pirate to victimize them with locators for further gank attacks. After all, if they mad enough to put a bounty on you, it means your suicide attack hit home - and further ganks might push them right over the edge and cause them to beat their kids, or better yet, quit EVE.

Actually its pretty amusing.

No. He was present and so was the victim and possibly others, but he did not do the kill. CONCORD did.

Bounties are meant as a reward for players who kill another player.

Your problem is that you have no understanding of bounties, that you do not know why someone puts a bounty on another player and what it is someone else should get the ISKs for.

What you do is to repeatedly state the is-state of the game and based on this do you give us interpretations of what it could mean.

Frankly, we do not care for it. We are discussing what it means for us players and not what it may have meant for the dev who implemented it.

Do you understand this?

He was involved and got the highest player DPS, hence he got the player led bounty.

It's all there in the patch notes. You obviously didn't understand this, when you placed the bounty.

No sir, you made the comment that this is the only way that some gankers will ever pay out on their bounties. I only pointed out a means of addressing YOUR issue.

No. The devs don't understand us. Stop being such a fanboy.

Oh, I think they understand us pretty well.

Never been called a fanboy before. Thanks.

You are welcome.

Will you now have the courtesy to let us discuss the new feature, what it means to us, how it is working out and respect our opinions on it without further attempts to patronize us like children?

I'll point out when I think you're wrong. Take that as you will.

Thank you, but this is not an argument. It is a discussion. You might make a mental not about it.

Did not say it was.

Since our movement has become wanted, the rascals in our gank fleets always shoot each other up after we slaughter a non-compliant. It's fun and a nice little bonus for a job well done!

So, in effect your bounties help subsidize the purchase of more catalysts and modules. Please give generously!

Thank you for your support.

And there's the side of the bounty system that should have been dead obvious... people in the same corp/alliance/fleet should not be getting bounties on eachother. That should have been a no brainer.

Like I said - its worse than that.

My suicide alt is always 'in the fleet' of people who 'whored' the KM while Concord was finishing him off.
Thus, he receives half of the bounty.....on himself.

Hilarious. Butthurt miners put bounties on gankers heads, and the gankers just collect it themselves. Like the good old days of podding yourself for a reward - except now its in regular installments.

And if miners want to keep it in, because the occasional miner gets a potshot off on a dying gankship.....GREAT!

Because gankers will certainly be able to exploit it on a far more regular basis - because we know exactly when and where the gank is going to occur. Collected over 20M of my own bounties just recently.
Only missed one because my scout didn't come out of cloak properly when the gankship landed on his head. By the time I uncloaked it was too late. :(

Oh well, the bounties will still be there. There is ALWAYS another gank.

..seriously? You just have to be in the same fleet as the people collecting it? Wow... another no brainer that shouldn't be there, but one that would be fixed somewhat by those in the same fleet or having been in the same fleet recently not getting anything from bounties.

I'm not really interested in a theoretical 'solution' that cuts off ganker exploitation of the bounty system, while leaving in the random 'potshot on a doomed GCC'd target' exploit. Neither makes sense, and leaving it in (in either case) makes it impossible to maintain a high bounty.

And really, I'm not sure it is really possible to easily distinguish the two cases. Thats what makes them alts. They could be anybody. Thus, I think the cleanest solution would be simply to eliminate payouts for Concord KMs. Like flipping a switch, like the other guy said. The insurance system is able to distinguish between Concord kills and others. No reason why the bounty system couldn't as well.

But really, I don't think CCP is going to do anything. I imagine the free money train for gankers is going to be with us for a long time. +1 for Crimewatch in that respect.

It also made ganking with 1400MM arty a LOT easier in 0.7 systems (where most of the ice mining occurs.) So, +2 for Crimewatch. Now you get guaranteed 2nd volleys EVERY time, instead of once in awhile. Silver lining and all that.

After all, if they mad enough to put a bounty on you, it means your suicide attack hit home - and further ganks might push them right over the edge and cause them to beat their kids, or better yet, quit EVE.

Thanks for neatly summing up how cowardly risk-free suicide ganks harm EvE as a whole. But hey, who cares about EvE as a whole, long as you get what you want, right? EvE is certainly going to be better off with less players.....

Though on the otherside of the coin, kudos for pointing out the bounty flaw, rather than going for a epic exploit. Oh wait, you're carrying on doing it right?

Figures.

I hope they fix this somehow. Definately not what the bounty system is all about.

Yes. I do not care about other EVE players. I paid for my PLEX with my own spacebux, therefore I am not required to care about others' enjoyment of EVE. I only care about my own enjoyment, which involves smashing Exhumers, podding their pilots, and making them generally feel like EVE is hopeless so they unsubscribe..

Interesting point here. It's generally us griefers, high-rollers, and generally evil people who pay with PLEX. I believe that it's the less affluent and indeed totally unsuccessful majority of the player base that subsidizes our lifestyle. The basic miner, the pathetic mission runner, the worthless grunt in a nullsec blob. These are the people who can do no better than to buy their ISK for real cash, using PLEX, to fund their activities, and who pay their subscription fees with real cash.

I wonder if we will eventually destroy ourselves, and this game. Idealistically, it's completely correct to hold the views you do, but realistically we may be working towards our own annihilation.