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Vexen Lyre
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
1
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Posted - 2013.02.03 15:52:00 -
[31] - Quote
Corey Fumimasa wrote:Vexen Lyre wrote:I'd like to hear an explanation for why an act of premeditated murder constitutes a war or why a galactic citizenry would put up with a corrupt police state that doesn't protect them. Because the cost for putting up with corruption is far less than the cost of removing it. Same as RL. As for murder, well, in the case of pod pilots there is no such thing. And I guess non-pod pilots just don't matter enough for anyone to care.
The point I'm making is that individuals aren't wartargets, but rather the corporation or alliance they're a member of is and if a corpration attacks an individual then that's really a hit. maybe there should be a mechanic for that but 50M for an entire alliance to have free kill rights on a character for a week is quite a bargain.
besides, this is just another permutation of the wardeccing npc corps fixing the game delusion. all it will accomplish is causing everyone to dock up the moment they see a wartarget in system, just like people in null do when they see an unalligned pilot in local.
then the people agitating for this will shut up because no immediate in local leaves them at risk from stealth bombers. Docked in Jita - Moon 4 - Caldari Navy Assembly Plant |
Nexus Day
Lustrevik Trade and Travel Bureau
432
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Posted - 2013.02.03 15:58:00 -
[32] - Quote
Die Unknown wrote:Xindi Kraid wrote:I'm confused as to how being able to wardec people in an NPC corp equates to breaking nullsec corps. Or do you happen to know the names of every alt they have and know how this cane be used without such a system being used solely to grief newbies. Paying 25-50m a week to grief one newbie would be incredibly stupid. And yet people will do it for the lols. This thread has so much content it may be 'Thread of the Year' and it is only January.
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Khanh'rhh
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1695
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Posted - 2013.02.03 16:58:00 -
[33] - Quote
The idea falls flat on it's face because it lacks any consideration for the reality of the situation. Though you may be able to effectively attack the logistics of a large alliance, smaller ones will be much easier to rout in this manner, and can less afford losing freighters in the same way a large alliance can.
It also overlooks the fact that shipping from Jita to null only happens because it is convenient - as soon as you remove that, then the same needs to be done in your base of operations. Who then is better able to achieve this, the small alliance with 2 or 3 easily camped stations, or a large sprawling alliance with many, many more?
[effectively] Immune logistics is one of the few game mechanic-quirks that keep small entities in nullsec at all. - "Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual, issued in the 1930's |
Die Unknown
Ghost Headquarters The Ghost Army
5
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Posted - 2013.02.03 17:26:00 -
[34] - Quote
Khanh'rhh wrote:The idea falls flat on it's face because it lacks any consideration for the reality of the situation. Though you may be able to effectively attack the logistics of a large alliance, smaller ones will be much easier to rout in this manner, and can less afford losing freighters in the same way a large alliance can.
It also overlooks the fact that shipping from Jita to null only happens because it is convenient - as soon as you remove that, then the same needs to be done in your base of operations. Who then is better able to achieve this, the small alliance with 2 or 3 easily camped stations, or a large sprawling alliance with many, many more?
[effectively] Immune logistics is one of the few game mechanic-quirks that keep small entities in nullsec at all.
This is completely wrong because you don't appreciate the difference in scale. Large alliances rely on income from the moon goo far more because of the infrastructure already in place. The traffic isn't just one way. With a larger volume of traffic, there will be more opportunity for intercept, making large scale logistics far riskier.
The other issue is getting the intel on logistic pilots. There is an argument to be made that this sort of information is easier to hide if you are a small, tight-nit group. |
Ghazu
540
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Posted - 2013.02.03 18:43:00 -
[35] - Quote
hey op, you can gank freighters of all kinds in highsec, it's called suicide ganking, figure it out. http://www.minerbumping.com/ lol what the christ https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2299984#post2299984 |
Ghazu
540
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Posted - 2013.02.03 18:46:00 -
[36] - Quote
Nexus Day wrote:Die Unknown wrote:Xindi Kraid wrote:I'm confused as to how being able to wardec people in an NPC corp equates to breaking nullsec corps. Or do you happen to know the names of every alt they have and know how this cane be used without such a system being used solely to grief newbies. Paying 25-50m a week to grief one newbie would be incredibly stupid. And yet people will do it for the lols. It's not right, but dudes do want to gather in a pretend-bar emoting each other, for the lols. http://www.minerbumping.com/ lol what the christ https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2299984#post2299984 |
Captain Tardbar
NEWB ALERT
78
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Posted - 2013.02.03 19:49:00 -
[37] - Quote
Die Unknown wrote:We already have structure grinding and that will never go away entirely. What we need is a more options. There is also an underlying point: should anyone be immune to pvp in Eve?
Station traders are immune to wardec regardless of they are in NPC corps or not because they never leave the station. "Entitlement" is a euphemism for "I hate the way you play and it makes me cry like a baby". If you fantasize about being immoral it means you enjoy being immoral deep down. |
Vexen Lyre
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
1
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Posted - 2013.02.03 19:54:00 -
[38] - Quote
Captain Tardbar wrote:Die Unknown wrote:We already have structure grinding and that will never go away entirely. What we need is a more options. There is also an underlying point: should anyone be immune to pvp in Eve? Station traders are immune to wardec regardless of they are in NPC corps or not because they never leave the station.
Yes, I'm thinking of taking teh 8m training to start my own corp and raise my credibility on these forums. Docked in Jita - Moon 4 - Caldari Navy Assembly Plant |
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
531
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Posted - 2013.02.03 20:16:00 -
[39] - Quote
Posting in another thread about NPC corps and members.
Gò¡Gê¬Gò«n+ên+¦n++n+¦n+ëGò¡Gê¬Gò«-á don't haten++ |
Frostys Virpio
Lame Corp Name
297
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Posted - 2013.02.03 20:54:00 -
[40] - Quote
Ghazu wrote:hey op, you can gank freighters of all kinds in highsec, it's called suicide ganking, figure it out.
That require effort wich is beyond many people's limit... |
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NEONOVUS
Saablast Followers
314
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Posted - 2013.02.03 20:56:00 -
[41] - Quote
Corey Fumimasa wrote:Sovereignty is pretty expensive to hold now; https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Sovereignty_guide And as for EHP they go down easy enough considering the DPS that can be applied. Check out dotlan, they are changing hands every day. I do think that sovereignty out in null is too powerful as far as protecting your resource extraction. It would be great if there was a way to steal moon goo or to hanger up out there so that reds could rat and plex in enemy space. Expensive I can do 10 systems plex and still have pvp money easily and all I do is manufacture. So yeah 180 mil a month per system Really needs to be more especially as the alliance grows. 180 mil a month a player a system is chump change in null. Maybe 1.8 billion would be better as then you would need a few people working on it and it would still allow small people while forcing larger groups to choose more (system cost would outstrip player supply far more readily thus making for a soft cap) |
RubyPorto
Sniggwaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
2567
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Posted - 2013.02.03 21:16:00 -
[42] - Quote
Die Unknown wrote:A jump freighter in an NPC corp can operate 99.99% risk free.
Suicide Gank them as they Jump into HS. As your goal is simply to hurt the big alliance, hauling unprofitable-to-gank loads won't keep them safe. This is EVE - Everybody Versus Everybody.
"the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP)." -CCP Solomon |
Corey Fumimasa
Perkone Caldari State
78
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Posted - 2013.02.03 21:38:00 -
[43] - Quote
NEONOVUS wrote:Corey Fumimasa wrote:Sovereignty is pretty expensive to hold now; https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Sovereignty_guide And as for EHP they go down easy enough considering the DPS that can be applied. Check out dotlan, they are changing hands every day. I do think that sovereignty out in null is too powerful as far as protecting your resource extraction. It would be great if there was a way to steal moon goo or to hanger up out there so that reds could rat and plex in enemy space. Expensive I can do 10 systems plex and still have pvp money easily and all I do is manufacture. So yeah 180 mil a month per system Really needs to be more especially as the alliance grows. 180 mil a month a player a system is chump change in null. Maybe 1.8 billion would be better as then you would need a few people working on it and it would still allow small people while forcing larger groups to choose more (system cost would outstrip player supply far more readily thus making for a soft cap) Why should big alliances have to pay more to hold sov?
I do think that holding Sov on empty / underused systems could be looked at. Maybe lower resource extraction would lead to vulnerability and lower EHP of the TCU. Something to make it a pain to hold a bunch of space for nothing more than the moongoo or whatever is king.
Thats not a bad idea, big corps with lots of land would be encouraged to recruit settlers to work those systems in order to keep the TCU. Then rather than just CONCORD highsec players would have the option of getting protection from a big alliance.
This is a youtube playlist going over my first 30 ship losses. Video sucks but the audio came out well.There are some good lessons, and if you know the game there's some funny stories. |
Psychotic Monk
The Skunkworks
598
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Posted - 2013.02.03 23:46:00 -
[44] - Quote
Vexen Lyre wrote: The point I'm making is that individuals aren't wartargets, but rather the corporation or alliance they're a member of is and if a corpration attacks an individual then that's really a hit. maybe there should be a mechanic for that but 50M for an entire alliance to have free kill rights on a character for a week is quite a bargain.
besides, this is just another permutation of the wardeccing npc corps fixing the game delusion. all it will accomplish is causing everyone to dock up the moment they see a wartarget in system, just like people in null do when they see an unalligned pilot in local.
then the people agitating for this will shut up because no immediate in local leaves them at risk from stealth bombers.
Your inability to defend yourself has to do with you not being willing to organize into groups or learn to fight. A greater threat demands a greater defense, sure, but at what point does that defense stop being CCPs responsibility and start being yours? Founding member of the Belligerent Undesirables movement. |
Corey Fumimasa
Perkone Caldari State
78
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Posted - 2013.02.03 23:59:00 -
[45] - Quote
I was going to reply to Vexans post there, I just couldn't figure out how to get back from all that wrong.
This is a youtube playlist going over my first 30 ship losses. Video sucks but the audio came out well.There are some good lessons, and if you know the game there's some funny stories. |
Corey Fumimasa
Perkone Caldari State
78
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Posted - 2013.02.04 00:08:00 -
[46] - Quote
I go back and forth with the NPC corp thing. Maybe a corp sales tax on all transactions for members of one; 10% right off the top of every purchase, sale, and bounty to discourage traders from staying NPC. And limited docking space, and no advanced ships, to discourage mission runners and hauler alts.
This is a youtube playlist going over my first 30 ship losses. Video sucks but the audio came out well.There are some good lessons, and if you know the game there's some funny stories. |
Captain Tardbar
NEWB ALERT
78
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Posted - 2013.02.04 00:10:00 -
[47] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:Ghazu wrote:hey op, you can gank freighters of all kinds in highsec, it's called suicide ganking, figure it out. That require effort wich is beyond many people's limit...
HTFU?
"Entitlement" is a euphemism for "I hate the way you play and it makes me cry like a baby". If you fantasize about being immoral it means you enjoy being immoral deep down. |
Captain Tardbar
NEWB ALERT
78
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Posted - 2013.02.04 00:12:00 -
[48] - Quote
Corey Fumimasa wrote:I go back and forth with the NPC corp thing. Maybe a corp sales tax on all transactions for members of one; 10% right off the top of every purchase, sale, and bounty to discourage traders from staying NPC. And limited docking space, and no advanced ships, to discourage mission runners and hauler alts.
So people will join one man corps and leave said corps when they are wardecced to join new corps they just created to avoid prior wardec.
Problem solved. "Entitlement" is a euphemism for "I hate the way you play and it makes me cry like a baby". If you fantasize about being immoral it means you enjoy being immoral deep down. |
Tarvos Telesto
Blood Fanatics
775
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Posted - 2013.02.04 00:17:00 -
[49] - Quote
Hit them where it hurts - ignore them and stop fight vs them, imagine 200 fleet vs 400 man fleet with better ships etc near gate,, and these people from 400 man fleet say to enemy sory guys we got better things to do, we can easy win but fighting vs you is waste of ammo, we leave system, imagine these people sad face... EvE isn't game, its style of living. |
Corey Fumimasa
Perkone Caldari State
78
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Posted - 2013.02.04 00:18:00 -
[50] - Quote
Captain Tardbar wrote:Corey Fumimasa wrote:I go back and forth with the NPC corp thing. Maybe a corp sales tax on all transactions for members of one; 10% right off the top of every purchase, sale, and bounty to discourage traders from staying NPC. And limited docking space, and no advanced ships, to discourage mission runners and hauler alts. So people will join one man corps and leave said corps when they are wardecced to join new corps they just created to avoid prior wardec. Problem solved.
Yeah I know...Its just depressing. Eve is so much fun and people just want to hide and grind.
This is a youtube playlist going over my first 30 ship losses. Video sucks but the audio came out well.There are some good lessons, and if you know the game there's some funny stories. |
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Vexen Lyre
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
1
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Posted - 2013.02.04 00:41:00 -
[51] - Quote
Psychotic Monk wrote:Your inability to defend yourself has to do with you not being willing to organize into groups or learn to fight. A greater threat demands a greater defense, sure, but at what point does that defense stop being CCPs responsibility and start being yours?
me? i don't undock, buddy. no problem there while this door stays shut.
i just play the game that exists. the game that encourages you to split activities across characters. I am available for PvP on one of them and die quite frequently for your pleasure.
i also disbelieve the safety in numbers in highsec theory. i'm pretty sure my corpmates would likely manage to make me a collective target and then bail on me at the first sign of a sustained threat. hence highsec me solos and hides because that is an excellent defense here. Docked in Jita - Moon 4 - Caldari Navy Assembly Plant |
Corey Fumimasa
Perkone Caldari State
79
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Posted - 2013.02.04 00:48:00 -
[52] - Quote
How long have you been playing Vexen?
This is a youtube playlist going over my first 30 ship losses. Video sucks but the audio came out well.There are some good lessons, and if you know the game there's some funny stories. |
Corey Fumimasa
Perkone Caldari State
79
|
Posted - 2013.02.04 00:50:00 -
[53] - Quote
I was just thinking of starting thread asking how many people who have started Eve in the last 3 years have stayed with the game? And is that % higher or lower than what it was 7 or 8 years ago.
This is a youtube playlist going over my first 30 ship losses. Video sucks but the audio came out well.There are some good lessons, and if you know the game there's some funny stories. |
Vexen Lyre
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
1
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Posted - 2013.02.04 00:53:00 -
[54] - Quote
Corey Fumimasa wrote:How long have you been playing Vexen?
nearly a year. i've got one guy roughly where he needs to be for making ISK and now it's all about frigates and very cheap pew pew on the other. Docked in Jita - Moon 4 - Caldari Navy Assembly Plant |
Corey Fumimasa
Perkone Caldari State
79
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Posted - 2013.02.04 00:55:00 -
[55] - Quote
Excellent. Welcome to Eve and grats on sticking it out. I think the vast majority of people in your shoes don't last and never figure it out.
This is a youtube playlist going over my first 30 ship losses. Video sucks but the audio came out well.There are some good lessons, and if you know the game there's some funny stories. |
Vexen Lyre
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
1
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Posted - 2013.02.04 01:08:00 -
[56] - Quote
Corey Fumimasa wrote:Excellent. Welcome to Eve and grats on sticking it out. I think the vast majority of people in your shoes don't last and never figure it out.
thanks. i think eve is about possibilities and that's the appeal. that you can do unconventional things with this game is a big draw.
it's obviously massively flawed but work with it seems like a good philosophy. Docked in Jita - Moon 4 - Caldari Navy Assembly Plant |
Mars Theran
Red Rogue Squadron
1620
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Posted - 2013.02.04 01:56:00 -
[57] - Quote
Die Unknown wrote:It's not easy to unseat a powerful alliance. More often then not, large alliances are destroyed from within, as opposed to any military action by their enemies. With their large incomes, they can lose a titan on a Monday, and have it replaced on Tuesday.
Here lies the problem; prolonged military campaigns are completely ineffective in upsetting the status quo. Sure, we still have the ability to infiltrate and destroy from within, but that's not so difficult to protect against. More importantly, that should not be the only option. INR, logistics are everything, and any disruption wreaks havoc. This is a problem Alliances are almost entirely immune to in Eve.
Not only has logistics in Eve have been simplified over time, there aren't any tools available to us to disrupt them altogether. A jump freighter in an NPC corp can operate 99.99% risk free. So no matter how many titans and motherships you blow up, big power blocks have an uninterpretable faucet of isk they can replace them with.
No one should be able to hide in an NPC corp. The solution is simple, we should be able to wardeck individuals in an NPC corp. They could still join or form player corporations, but the wardeck will follow them. This introduces a new level of complexity that we sorely need.
TL;DR: I need about three fiddy
You're mistaken; it is possible. It is just unlikely to be easy.
Scorched Earth: Raze their production funnels to the ground in Lowsec, find and eliminate their Highsec Alts sources of income, destroy their Alt freighters ferrying goods, and those that aren't. Wardec, camp, attack the marketable goods on which they rely for production of their most powerful weapons.
I think it would take about a year to seriously affect most of them doing this though. zubzubzubzubzubzubzubzub |
NEONOVUS
Saablast Followers
316
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Posted - 2013.02.04 02:19:00 -
[58] - Quote
Corey Fumimasa wrote:NEONOVUS wrote:Corey Fumimasa wrote:Sovereignty is pretty expensive to hold now; https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Sovereignty_guide And as for EHP they go down easy enough considering the DPS that can be applied. Check out dotlan, they are changing hands every day. I do think that sovereignty out in null is too powerful as far as protecting your resource extraction. It would be great if there was a way to steal moon goo or to hanger up out there so that reds could rat and plex in enemy space. Expensive I can do 10 systems plex and still have pvp money easily and all I do is manufacture. So yeah 180 mil a month per system Really needs to be more especially as the alliance grows. 180 mil a month a player a system is chump change in null. Maybe 1.8 billion would be better as then you would need a few people working on it and it would still allow small people while forcing larger groups to choose more (system cost would outstrip player supply far more readily thus making for a soft cap) Why should big alliances have to pay more to hold sov? I do think that holding Sov on empty / underused systems could be looked at. Maybe lower resource extraction would lead to vulnerability and lower EHP of the TCU. Something to make it a pain to hold a bunch of space for nothing more than the moongoo or whatever is king. Thats not a bad idea, big corps with lots of land would be encouraged to recruit settlers to work those systems in order to keep the TCU. Then rather than just CONCORD highsec players would have the option of getting protection from a big alliance. Space is limited surprisingly. Therefore what ever you hold is worth more solely because you hold it. Thus the rate for you holding the now more valuable space should increase. This would effect the need to make the space productive as opposed to merely using it as a buffer/ its there area. From this you would also see a more available amount of space as an alliance may only acquire so much before it is stopped by being unable to afford. Currently that limit is far to high. Thus under this proposal the small and the large take a hit but the large takes a bigger hit, as is the intention of a progressive system As I pointed out I can currently hold 10 systems and plex each month with this account. Under the revised rules I would be in a far more difficult position to expand beyond 2 systems if that. Thus I while small can still play but by the same token the alliance I am part of may very well take 10 of me just to hold each system let alone if it has upgrades. (This also helps with the whole tech moon thing as now a significant chunk is going to holding the system as opposed to buying ships. Probably wont hurt cap proliferation as they could still mine the minerals instead of market. Ooh pvp targets) |
Mascen Carew
Ordo Carnifex
0
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Posted - 2013.02.04 04:40:00 -
[59] - Quote
RubyPorto wrote:Die Unknown wrote:A jump freighter in an NPC corp can operate 99.99% risk free. Suicide Gank them as they Jump into HS. As your goal is simply to hurt the big alliance, hauling unprofitable-to-gank loads won't keep them safe.
I tend to agree with RubyPorto, but just another prespective and perhaps not a very good one but would a mechanism that: a: Extended the jump time when using CynoGÇÖs for Jump Freighters; b: Allowed for the destruction of CynoGÇÖs while they are active; and c: If a Cyno is destroyed while a JF is still in warp the JF is lost in Warp, effectively destroyed. It is a bit of work but it would make a everything a Tad more interesting.
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RubyPorto
Sniggwaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
2570
|
Posted - 2013.02.04 04:45:00 -
[60] - Quote
Mascen Carew wrote:RubyPorto wrote:Die Unknown wrote:A jump freighter in an NPC corp can operate 99.99% risk free. Suicide Gank them as they Jump into HS. As your goal is simply to hurt the big alliance, hauling unprofitable-to-gank loads won't keep them safe. I tend to agree with RubyPorto, but just another prespective and perhaps not a very good one but would a mechanism that: a: Extended the jump time when using CynoGÇÖs for Jump Freighters; b: Allowed for the destruction of CynoGÇÖs while they are active; and c: If a Cyno is destroyed while a JF is still in warp the JF is lost in Warp, effectively destroyed. It is a bit of work but it would make a everything a Tad more interesting.
a: There's a fair delay between pressing jump and landing. b: They can be, just kill the noobship. c: If it is destroyed, the JF lands in a random spot in system. Easy prey for someone prepared with probes.
This is EVE - Everybody Versus Everybody.
"the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP)." -CCP Solomon |
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