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Shanara As
Psy Corp Ltd.
567
|
Posted - 2013.02.05 13:05:00 -
[1] - Quote
hey there,
i am not a big insider when it comes to game mechanics and such, but I perceive a certain trend or situation in eve right now. for me it seems like smaller corps / alliances will not be able to "set their mark" in eve or (a term that I like) "stake their claim on 0.0 space.
since 2-4 larger powerblocks are holding like 4/5th of the current map, the rest of 0.0 space that is claimable is fought over by the wanna-be-¦s and runner-ups, but still large alliances compared to the usual "starter-corp with ambitions".
so either you have very good connections to some of those powerblocks to help you out, the chance to ever gain sov in eve is very very low and holding / maintaining that sov is close to impossible.
dont get me wrong. i am in no way proposing something like "break up large coalitions / powerblocks / whatnot. they worked hard to get what they have and obviously used the game and its opportunitites to the fulllest. they earned what they have...
so what ways are there for small corps / alliances to leave their mark / stake their claim?
-rent space ? yeah, everybody loves to be called a pet. -try to claim and die a horrile and very very expensive death -join others
it seems to me that building an "empire" (even a very very tiny one...lets say one, two sysytems) is just out of the question with the current state of the game...
is this just my perception ? is it flawed ?
"Gotta spend money to make money" "A fool talks, a wise man listens" "He who doesn-¦t wanna listen, talks the most"
|
Mithrantir Ob'lontra
Ixion Defence Systems Test Alliance Please Ignore
28
|
Posted - 2013.02.05 13:11:00 -
[2] - Quote
So you have already set your mind that if your alliance goes and claims a chunk of 0.0, you all will die and fail horribly.
And then you wonder if it's out of the question to do carve an empire for your alliance in 0.0.
Let me tell you something With that mentality, yes it is.
If you want something you have to go after it. If you are waiting that someone will handle you and your alliance space, just because, you are gravely mistaken.
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Shanara As
Psy Corp Ltd.
567
|
Posted - 2013.02.05 13:19:00 -
[3] - Quote
Mithrantir Ob'lontra wrote:So you have already set your mind that if your alliance goes and claims a chunk of 0.0, you all will die and fail horribly.
And then you wonder if it's out of the question to do carve an empire for your alliance in 0.0.
Let me tell you something With that mentality, yes it is.
If you want something you have to go after it. If you are waiting that someone will handle you and your alliance space, just because, you are gravely mistaken.
thx for your input. what you imply is that all alliances that try to carve their space and failed in recent history had the wrong mindset, which i seriously doubt. its just that as the saying goes: theres always a bigger fish in the water. this of course holds true. but in nature, as opposed to eve, the white shark couldnt care less about some small "Nemo" building his own house somehere right next to him.
in eve, the shark would not only jump at Nemo, but call his other shark frriends.
i could have put it more into game mechanic terms.. something that might be better / easier to understand for some pilots of new eden: what size of playerbase and such do you think is needed to effectivley hold sov and carve out an empire ? keep in mind that the space used would be needed to provide some kind of ROI for the effort it takes to gain / hold it. so belts, rats, anoms and such should be available...
i would be very surprised to get a straight answer for that. "Gotta spend money to make money" "A fool talks, a wise man listens" "He who doesn-¦t wanna listen, talks the most"
|
Yim Sei
Ontogenic Achronycal PLC
55
|
Posted - 2013.02.05 13:19:00 -
[4] - Quote
Mithrantir Ob'lontra wrote:So you have already set your mind that if your alliance goes and claims a chunk of 0.0, you all will die and fail horribly.
And then you wonder if it's out of the question to do carve an empire for your alliance in 0.0.
Let me tell you something With that mentality, yes it is.
If you want something you have to go after it. If you are expecting that someone will handle you and your alliance a place to live in 0.0, just because, you are gravely mistaken.
tldr HTFU - Except the OP has a valid point and this is not the be all and end all answer.
Why not dissect the reasons that is not possible for smaller alliances to carve their own little bit of SOV?
Possibilites
1. Supercaps / blobs
2. Access to nullsec (camps)
3. Nullsec Market and logistics
Find the actual deciding factors before looking for an answer fix it all answer.
It has to be done bit by bit - there is no cure all.
+1 OP btw Post with my main? This is my main - I just overtrain and overplay my alts. |
Shanara As
Psy Corp Ltd.
567
|
Posted - 2013.02.05 13:27:00 -
[5] - Quote
also: I -¦ve been playing MMO-¦s for close to 15 years now and I dont have the illusion anymore that i can compete with some jobless creature that dwells online all the time. Neither do I want that. That time is over. But uunless you have a coalition / alliance that can field about 250 pilots 23/7 , taking and maintaninign sov is impossible. is it not ?
if it wasnt, then i wonder why not hundreds of alliances constantly chip and gnawl away from those large powerblocks.
they know its a waste of time, a battle not possible to win.
so i pose the question: is the battle for and goal to gain sov space merely an illusion ? a bubble about to burst when the first of many cynos is lit when you just formed up your 25 men fleet to defend what you just built ?
"Gotta spend money to make money" "A fool talks, a wise man listens" "He who doesn-¦t wanna listen, talks the most"
|
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
1271
|
Posted - 2013.02.05 13:34:00 -
[6] - Quote
Shanara As wrote:hey there,
i am not a big insider when it comes to game mechanics and such, but I perceive a certain trend or situation in eve right now. for me it seems like smaller corps / alliances will not be able to "set their mark" in eve or (a term that I like) "stake their claim on 0.0 space.
since 2-4 larger powerblocks are holding like 4/5th of the current map, the rest of 0.0 space that is claimable is fought over by the wanna-be-¦s and runner-ups, but still large alliances compared to the usual "starter-corp with ambitions".
so either you have very good connections to some of those powerblocks to help you out, the chance to ever gain sov in eve is very very low and holding / maintaining that sov is close to impossible.
dont get me wrong. i am in no way proposing something like "break up large coalitions / powerblocks / whatnot. they worked hard to get what they have and obviously used the game and its opportunitites to the fulllest. they earned what they have...
so what ways are there for small corps / alliances to leave their mark / stake their claim?
-rent space ? yeah, everybody loves to be called a pet. -try to claim and die a horrile and very very expensive death -join others
it seems to me that building an "empire" (even a very very tiny one...lets say one, two sysytems) is just out of the question with the current state of the game...
is this just my perception ? is it flawed ?
Man, i know where you are coming from.
Just yesterday I tried to Invade the State of Florida with 4 boy scouts and a swiss Army Knife, and then all of a sudden a U.S. Army Brigade Blobbed us (Hotdropped out of black hawk helicopters no less) and we couldn't take Sov. Then some Customs Agents camped us in the port and it was a mess.
Don't worry, I posted on the United Nations forum and told them real life was unbalanced, I expect action soon. |
Fractal Muse
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
212
|
Posted - 2013.02.05 13:37:00 -
[7] - Quote
Your perception is flawed.
You are starting with a self-defeating prophecy and a belief that it is impossible.
Anyone can be the next big Alliance in 0.0. Anyone.
The thing is, it will take a lot of energy, time, effort, and understanding of how people work.
The people who run the larger Alliances have put in a lot into EVE Online and have managed to succeed where hundreds (if not thousands) of others have failed. But, they also prove that it is possible. They didn't just magically become leaders of large organizations that span across tens of thousands of players.
They built up these coalitions over the course of years.
If you want to carve out space in the strategy game that is EVE Online in 0.0 then start.
Take the time to study the shifting loyalties of the different corporations and personalities in 0.0. Get together some like minded folk. Take over a single system and hold it. If you are pushed out of it by overwhelming numbers all the better: use that as a rallying cry and move to NPC 0.0. Go back and retake your homeland space. Keep working on taking the space.
If you get thrown out a dozen times then that is good. Why? Others will take notice of your struggle and join you.
So, yes, it can definitely be done. All it will take is someone with the conviction, energy, time, and charisma to make it happen.
|
Corey Fumimasa
Perkone Caldari State
84
|
Posted - 2013.02.05 13:41:00 -
[8] - Quote
Go find a wormhole if you just want some space. Plenty of moons in them and no static enemies really, other W-space corps tend to mind their own business and the k-space connections change enough that you don't need to worry so much about extended campaigns.
Or go to NPC null, the stations there are open and the last time I was out in ORE space (last summer) there were no roving mobs destroying anyone in their territory. I saw a few gangs, but they were on the small side (under 15 ships) and a lot of solo pilots and small gangs of 3 or 4. I wouldn't try to put a POS out there...well if you had a 100 pilots you could prolly hold it well enough against the groups that I saw.
A lot of sov is working with the alliances and people around you; send out scouts, live out of your ORCA's for a while until you find a system that isn't all that important to anyone else and then make the owners pay more than it is worth to them to get it back. Practice taking sov in FW first, the mechanics and organization required are very similar. That will give you a feel for the structure grind.
Practice in incursions, develop tight knit fleets that know each other and their group roles. And you'll need a ton of ISK anyway to get set up, incursions are very dense faucet.
Can 5 or 10 guys go out and hold sov in null just by playing the MMO? I don't think so. But if you build relationships and can figure out when you need to fight and when you need to talk then you can carve out a nitch anywhere in Eve.
This is a youtube playlist going over my first 30 ship losses. Video sucks but the audio came out well.There are some good lessons, and if you know the game there's some funny stories. |
Shanara As
Psy Corp Ltd.
567
|
Posted - 2013.02.05 13:42:00 -
[9] - Quote
Quote:
Man, i know where you are coming from.
Just yesterday I tried to Invade the State of Florida with 4 boy scouts and a swiss Army Knife, and then all of a sudden a U.S. Army Brigade Blobbed us (Hotdropped out of black hawk helicopters no less) and we couldn't take Sov. Then some Customs Agents camped us in the port and it was a mess.
Don't worry, I posted on the United Nations forum and told them real life was unbalanced, I expect action soon.
i like your humor.. good one. if mocking the question is your only response though I would say... yeah. i expected as much. your example is deeply flawed but hey. a joke is better than really thinking about it right ?
a single system could / can be taken and defended by a very small group of people. assuming you can prevent someone jumpng in and lighting a cyno.
also, what is the epxected "right tool" in eve ? when i am talking about taking sov i am not having the idea of flying in there with frigs and an Iteron.
"Gotta spend money to make money" "A fool talks, a wise man listens" "He who doesn-¦t wanna listen, talks the most"
|
Grath Telkin
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
1273
|
Posted - 2013.02.05 13:42:00 -
[10] - Quote
You could try diplomatically reaching out to an existing entity to see if they can find a place for you and yours among the starts.
Also its not 4/5ths of the map, all of claimable 0.0 is currently claimed, it stays claimed until somebody comes and takes it.
If you're young and starting up, your best bet is literally to touch base with a group and see if they can find a home for your small alliance.
Then grow. |
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Yim Sei
Ontogenic Achronycal PLC
55
|
Posted - 2013.02.05 13:43:00 -
[11] - Quote
....and trolling aside
It would be great if you could form a group (alliance / corp / whatever) say with 50 cruiser / 10 BS and 3 or 4 capitals to go out and claim a bit of null (theorycrafting please dont analyse the numbers)
I imagine its entirely possible, however there are bound to be losses so these need replacing and quick - thats where the logistics come in.
Looking at it this way there are say 65 players involved in combat ops - so you may need another 65 (ish) for alternative timezones.
OK so you have your tower up and a pretty active little community who are now ratting, PvPing and performing logistics in the surrounding area over say 7 or 8 systems which WILL border one of the powerblocks.
How long before someone annoys someone and they sent 30 dreads to pop your tower maybe just for giggles.
We need more space and something to limit coalitions imo - but the real question is why? whats the detail? Post with my main? This is my main - I just overtrain and overplay my alts. |
Mithrantir Ob'lontra
Ixion Defence Systems Test Alliance Please Ignore
28
|
Posted - 2013.02.05 13:50:00 -
[12] - Quote
Yim Sei wrote:Mithrantir Ob'lontra wrote:So you have already set your mind that if your alliance goes and claims a chunk of 0.0, you all will die and fail horribly.
And then you wonder if it's out of the question to do carve an empire for your alliance in 0.0.
Let me tell you something With that mentality, yes it is.
If you want something you have to go after it. If you are expecting that someone will handle you and your alliance a place to live in 0.0, just because, you are gravely mistaken. tldr HTFU - Except the OP has a valid point and this is not the be all and end all answer. Why not dissect the reasons that is not possible for smaller alliances to carve their own little bit of SOV? Possibilites 1. Supercaps / blobs 2. Access to nullsec (camps) 3. Nullsec Market and logistics Find the actual deciding factors before looking for an answer fix it all answer. It has to be done bit by bit - there is no cure all. +1 OP btw What you have written applies only to larger blocks and not to a small alliance (or group of players if you like). If a small alliance wants space they have to prove themselves and they will get some space eventually.
Sov needs a lot of things and not only the ability to take it, but also maintain (that is Logistics and not the possession of supers). A small alliance won't be able to do that unless they work with other alliances as a team (they can get some space too if they co operate with others). |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
1271
|
Posted - 2013.02.05 13:55:00 -
[13] - Quote
Shanara As wrote:Quote:
Man, i know where you are coming from.
Just yesterday I tried to Invade the State of Florida with 4 boy scouts and a swiss Army Knife, and then all of a sudden a U.S. Army Brigade Blobbed us (Hotdropped out of black hawk helicopters no less) and we couldn't take Sov. Then some Customs Agents camped us in the port and it was a mess.
Don't worry, I posted on the United Nations forum and told them real life was unbalanced, I expect action soon.
i like your humor.. good one. if mocking the question is your only response though I would say... yeah. i expected as much. your example is deeply flawed but hey. a joke is better than really thinking about it right ? a single system could / can be taken and defended by a very small group of people. assuming you can prevent someone jumpng in and lighting a cyno. also, what is the epxected "right tool" in eve ? when i am talking about taking sov i am not having the idea of flying in there with frigs and an Iteron.
You're original post was a big joke so I thought I'd return the favor.
Want sov? go make friends with a few hundred people and take it.
|
Yim Sei
Ontogenic Achronycal PLC
55
|
Posted - 2013.02.05 13:57:00 -
[14] - Quote
Mithrantir Ob'lontra wrote:Yim Sei wrote:Mithrantir Ob'lontra wrote:So you have already set your mind that if your alliance goes and claims a chunk of 0.0, you all will die and fail horribly.
And then you wonder if it's out of the question to do carve an empire for your alliance in 0.0.
Let me tell you something With that mentality, yes it is.
If you want something you have to go after it. If you are expecting that someone will handle you and your alliance a place to live in 0.0, just because, you are gravely mistaken. tldr HTFU - Except the OP has a valid point and this is not the be all and end all answer. Why not dissect the reasons that is not possible for smaller alliances to carve their own little bit of SOV? Possibilites 1. Supercaps / blobs 2. Access to nullsec (camps) 3. Nullsec Market and logistics Find the actual deciding factors before looking for an answer fix it all answer. It has to be done bit by bit - there is no cure all. +1 OP btw What you have written applies only to larger blocks and not to a small alliance (or group of players if you like). If a small alliance wants space they have to prove themselves and they will get some space eventually. Sov needs a lot of things and not only the ability to take it, but also maintain (that is Logistics and not the possession of supers). A small alliance won't be able to do that unless they work with other alliances as a team (they can get some space too if they co operate with others).
I can see your point, and looks like 'working as intended'.
Of course the 'little guy' is always going to want a bigger piece of the pie, and I guess this works where alliances are concerned, but dont coalitions set the bar too high?
Not wanting to oversimplify things but its looking to be like war may be the only answer, but how can this happen when opposition can so easily stamped out way before it becomes a threat?
does that make sense? Post with my main? This is my main - I just overtrain and overplay my alts. |
Corey Fumimasa
Perkone Caldari State
84
|
Posted - 2013.02.05 13:57:00 -
[15] - Quote
Shanara As wrote:also: I -¦ve been playing MMO-¦s for close to 15 years now and I dont have the illusion anymore that i can compete with some jobless creature that dwells online all the time. Neither do I want that. That time is over. But uunless you have a coalition / alliance that can field about 250 pilots 23/7 , taking and maintaninign sov is impossible. is it not ?
if it wasnt, then i wonder why not hundreds of alliances constantly chip and gnawl away from those large powerblocks.
they know its a waste of time, a battle not possible to win.
so i pose the question: is the battle for and goal to gain sov space merely an illusion ? a bubble about to burst when the first of many cynos is lit when you just formed up your 25 men fleet to defend what you just built ?
I was way out behind Minmatar space last year, that seemed pretty empty. And the whole thing with Test taking Delve, no one really wants Delve its always been a renter hive ****-hole, and if the roving east blok gangs in lowsec from the Eve Gate out to Delve are any indication then there is some space available out there. Maybe just pay rent to Test for a while and get a feel for what your income stream will look like and how logistics work so far from empire space.
As for casual pilots competing with full time gamer's, yeah that's not going to happen. But you could recruit pilots from out of Eve. Post fliers around on gamestore windows and meetup.com ads get a bunch of new guys and teach them how to play. The bulk of Test pilots are very new players that get recruited out of game I think. 20 guys in Drakes are a great addition to a fleet even if their skills are very low.
So in answer to the question; I think it would be very difficult to do just using in game tools. You probably need to step outside of Eve to develop a social network capable of influencing things on a big scale. But there are plenty of smaller places to start.
This is a youtube playlist going over my first 30 ship losses. Video sucks but the audio came out well.There are some good lessons, and if you know the game there's some funny stories. |
Shanara As
Psy Corp Ltd.
567
|
Posted - 2013.02.05 13:58:00 -
[16] - Quote
Yim Sei wrote:It would be great if you could form a group (alliance / corp / whatever) say with 50 cruiser / 10 BS and 3 or 4 capitals to go out and claim a bit of null (theorycrafting please dont analyse the numbers)
I imagine its entirely possible, however there are bound to be losses so these need replacing and quick - thats where the logistics come in.
Looking at it this way there are say 65 players involved in combat ops - so you may need another 65 (ish) for alternative timezones.
OK so you have your tower up and a pretty active little community who are now ratting, PvPing and performing logistics in the surrounding area over say 7 or 8 systems which WILL border one of the powerblocks.
How long before someone annoys someone and they sent 30 dreads to pop your tower maybe just for giggles.
We need more space and something to limit coalitions imo - but the real question is why? whats the detail?
This is alot more complicated than just one answer.
There must be balance and fairness to the large powerblocks who have worked hard to hold what they have in the past, as well as opportunity for smaller entities.
exactly and thx for that post. one of the things i cant stand is the HTFU mentality or the bullshit that "your mindset is wrong" , self fullfilling prohecy crap. when a game cannot be played unless i use jabber / IRC, wake my members up at night and schedule my real life around it to gain access to the possibilities the game holds, the game is divided into more than casual and hardcore gamer classes, but into even more . into casual, hardcore and nothing else gamers. its not that I want to take sov away from anyone. but for christ sakes...its space. theres gotta be more out there. why not being able to just find some more "promised land" out there ?
also... like I said i dont mind too mich aboput game mechanics.. but I am a fan of -mass limits on cynos (like in WH-¦s) -supers following their cynos (you have to commmit and cannot be used to just bridging anymore) -increase fould costs for jump portals , depending on mass bridged -a cyno jamming ship (see it as a cyno interdictor) -something like proximity detection and depth charge mechanic for uncloaking / destroying cloaky ships (no afk cloaking anymore)
but this has nothing to do with the original post of course "Gotta spend money to make money" "A fool talks, a wise man listens" "He who doesn-¦t wanna listen, talks the most"
|
Shanara As
Psy Corp Ltd.
567
|
Posted - 2013.02.05 14:05:00 -
[17] - Quote
Yim Sei wrote:Mithrantir Ob'lontra wrote:Yim Sei wrote:Mithrantir Ob'lontra wrote:So you have already set your mind that if your alliance goes and claims a chunk of 0.0, you all will die and fail horribly.
And then you wonder if it's out of the question to do carve an empire for your alliance in 0.0.
Let me tell you something With that mentality, yes it is.
If you want something you have to go after it. If you are expecting that someone will handle you and your alliance a place to live in 0.0, just because, you are gravely mistaken. tldr HTFU - Except the OP has a valid point and this is not the be all and end all answer. Why not dissect the reasons that is not possible for smaller alliances to carve their own little bit of SOV? Possibilites 1. Supercaps / blobs 2. Access to nullsec (camps) 3. Nullsec Market and logistics Find the actual deciding factors before looking for an answer fix it all answer. It has to be done bit by bit - there is no cure all. +1 OP btw What you have written applies only to larger blocks and not to a small alliance (or group of players if you like). If a small alliance wants space they have to prove themselves and they will get some space eventually. Sov needs a lot of things and not only the ability to take it, but also maintain (that is Logistics and not the possession of supers). A small alliance won't be able to do that unless they work with other alliances as a team (they can get some space too if they co operate with others). I can see your point, and looks like 'working as intended'. Of course the 'little guy' is always going to want a bigger piece of the pie, and I guess this works where alliances are concerned, but dont coalitions set the bar too high? Not wanting to oversimplify things but its looking to be like war may be the only answer, but how can this happen when opposition can so easily stamped out way before it becomes a threat? does that make sense?
yeah thats my train of thought. of course like i posted earlier, theres always bigger fish. but why on earth would the biggest fish seriously care about the small ones ? only in eve they would because otherwise its a lil boring sometimes maybe ?
to that jokster: "if you want sov, make hundres of friends and take it"... *chuckle.... hilarious. might put that in my signature.
"Gotta spend money to make money" "A fool talks, a wise man listens" "He who doesn-¦t wanna listen, talks the most"
|
Mithrantir Ob'lontra
Ixion Defence Systems Test Alliance Please Ignore
28
|
Posted - 2013.02.05 14:07:00 -
[18] - Quote
Shanara As wrote:Quote:
Man, i know where you are coming from.
Just yesterday I tried to Invade the State of Florida with 4 boy scouts and a swiss Army Knife, and then all of a sudden a U.S. Army Brigade Blobbed us (Hotdropped out of black hawk helicopters no less) and we couldn't take Sov. Then some Customs Agents camped us in the port and it was a mess.
Don't worry, I posted on the United Nations forum and told them real life was unbalanced, I expect action soon.
i like your humor.. good one. if mocking the question is your only response though I would say... yeah. i expected as much. your example is deeply flawed but hey. a joke is better than really thinking about it right ? a single system could / can be taken and defended by a very small group of people. assuming you can prevent someone jumpng in and lighting a cyno. also, what is the epxected "right tool" in eve ? when i am talking about taking sov i am not having the idea of flying in there with frigs and an Iteron. What the hell are you talking about? You think that supers or even capitals are deployed on every little chance of a fight?
You are wrong. A small group of people can't defend a system (even a dead end one) against people that are willing to throw every ship they have to achieve their goal.
Slipping a ship in and lighting a cyno is easy. In fact the most probable thing that will happen is that the cyno won't lit before a huge proportion of your enemies have jumped into the system, thus locking your forces on the gate.
I would also like to remind you that holding a single system in 0.0 is worse than being all day in high sec doing level 4 mission. Except of the constant fear of getting hot dropped, you won't be able to reap any of the profits you imagine that there are in 0.0 (and I am sure that you have a wild imagination, thus the sad face that you can't do that with your corp only).
EVE is a team game. The amount of things a team can achieve is proportional to the amount of people involved. When you understand this, you will realize that you can't play in your exclusive garden of Eden, because there is no way you will be able to keep the rest of the community outside of your garden.
|
Kinis Deren
EVE University Ivy League
141
|
Posted - 2013.02.05 14:10:00 -
[19] - Quote
This whole topic is a hotly debated issue at the moment - just take a look at the popular game related news sites or player written blogs, for example. I suspect it will be an interesting issue for all candidates looking to stand in the CSM8 elections too.
For small and medium alliances that don't want to burden themseleves with the renter/pet title, my impression is that WH space is the place to be. I have to say, the idea of using WH space to raid the lazy fat cats in sov null sounds an interesting pastime as well. |
Kainotomiu Ronuken
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
831
|
Posted - 2013.02.05 14:11:00 -
[20] - Quote
Everyone started small. You shouldn't be looking at it as 'How can small alliances take sov?'. You should be thinking 'How can my small alliance be successful enough to be able to take and hold sov?'
You have become the pubbie, Mittani. Yours is the temple whose technetium-clad tables are at risk of being overthrown, whose seats need mixing. You're the one who fears war. -- Sadleric |
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Shanara As
Psy Corp Ltd.
568
|
Posted - 2013.02.05 14:25:00 -
[21] - Quote
[/quote]
.... The amount of things a team can achieve is proportional to the amount of people involved....[/quote]
if you consider the F1-lemmings filling fleets to alpha **** part of the "team", well then you are right. if you (as i do) prefer to talk about a team in a much more smaller context, then its just plain out wrong.
anyways.
live in 0.0 (npc) so thanks but i know. and i also know that the "reaps and rewards" are not too monumental, but they are still there. theres stuff (and rightly so) thats only possible in 0.0.
but i think the psychological value of sov is nothing not to underestimated, especially for a small alliance. one more system or not might not mean much for larger coalitions. but the first OWN system sends a powerfull message to members and foes alike.
"Gotta spend money to make money" "A fool talks, a wise man listens" "He who doesn-¦t wanna listen, talks the most"
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Rordan D'Kherr
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
420
|
Posted - 2013.02.05 14:27:00 -
[22] - Quote
If you have a look at the history of these 0.0 holding entities (aka exclusive club), you will probably see that no one got space as a gift.
Yes, it is a hilarious challenge to claim 0.0 out of nothing, but not impossible I bet. _______________________________________ Don't be scared, because being afk is not a crime. |
Shanara As
Psy Corp Ltd.
568
|
Posted - 2013.02.05 14:30:00 -
[23] - Quote
Rordan D'Kherr wrote:If you have a look at the history of these 0.0 holding entities (aka exclusive club), you will probably see that no one got space as a gift.
Yes, it is a hilarious challenge to claim 0.0 out of nothing, but not impossible I bet.
like i said in my OP, i respect the work and effort put into gaining their space. they did something right. the results at least show that, the systems they have speak volumes of that.
"Gotta spend money to make money" "A fool talks, a wise man listens" "He who doesn-¦t wanna listen, talks the most"
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3363
|
Posted - 2013.02.05 14:34:00 -
[24] - Quote
Shanara As wrote:Rordan D'Kherr wrote:If you have a look at the history of these 0.0 holding entities (aka exclusive club), you will probably see that no one got space as a gift.
Yes, it is a hilarious challenge to claim 0.0 out of nothing, but not impossible I bet. like i said in my OP, i respect the work and effort put into gaining their space. they did something right. the results at least show that, the systems they have speak volumes of that. Supposedly we got ours as a "gift" when a good friend alliance decided they wanted to really win eve.
I heard it on EVEO. Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
Kinis Deren
EVE University Ivy League
142
|
Posted - 2013.02.05 15:03:00 -
[25] - Quote
This is very much a tongue in cheek reply ....
Another option would be to join/create an out of game community, pay $10 (or get them to pay you), post a few "070707m8m8m8" and get yourself some insta-friends - very little effort, will tend to be self sustaining and, in time, more than likely to provide sufficient numbers for a blob to conquer sov null. You'll then be able to make as many blue donuts as your heart desires and call yourself the King of Space or something similar |
TheBlueMonkey
Don't Be a Menace That Red Alliance
373
|
Posted - 2013.02.05 15:03:00 -
[26] - Quote
Would you turn up in WoW and try to solo a top level raid when you're still in the 30's?
Or would you start off smaller, find some like minded friends, build a small empire and then work up to such things?
Almost all things in eve are won with fights and words.
First go any make people realize you're serious about things. Repeatedly bomb their jump bridge or attack their haulers as they travel should at least get you on a radar.
Repeatedly reinforcing structures, picking the right fights and hiding from the ones you'll lose and sooner or later there'll be a response.
People are just lazy though and "egh, might as well just join them" is easier. |
Rordan D'Kherr
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
420
|
Posted - 2013.02.05 15:04:00 -
[27] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Shanara As wrote:Rordan D'Kherr wrote:If you have a look at the history of these 0.0 holding entities (aka exclusive club), you will probably see that no one got space as a gift.
Yes, it is a hilarious challenge to claim 0.0 out of nothing, but not impossible I bet. like i said in my OP, i respect the work and effort put into gaining their space. they did something right. the results at least show that, the systems they have speak volumes of that. Supposedly we got ours as a "gift" when a good friend alliance decided they wanted to really win eve. I heard it on EVEO.
Confirming Sir Molle was / is a Goon alt _______________________________________ Don't be scared, because being afk is not a crime. |
Vera Algaert
Republic University Minmatar Republic
732
|
Posted - 2013.02.05 15:05:00 -
[28] - Quote
There are two ways a new corporation/alliance can choose from
(1) Join one of the powerblocs, use the resources they offer you to grow and hopefully split away from them one day. The obvious issue is that you will have no reason to split away from them and probably will never able to do it anyways as you will recruit the same j4gs as everyone else.
(2) Move to NPC 0.0, make a name for yourself, forge a coalition with other entities in your region and then push to take sov from some weak sov holding entity. You'll still have to find friends among the dominant 0.0 entities to hold on to your sov but you will probably have a resilient & competent fighting force at that point (npc 0.0 weeds out the j4gs and bads pretty fast) which should earn you some respect and give you a position to negotiate from.
I'm a NPC corp alt, any argument I make is invalid. |
Kamii Yo
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
1
|
Posted - 2013.02.05 15:13:00 -
[29] - Quote
There are more alliances owning sov in 0.0 then there have ever been in Eve.
Just FYI. |
Spurty
V0LTA Verge of Collapse
787
|
Posted - 2013.02.05 15:17:00 -
[30] - Quote
Established alliances living in 0.0 want targets for their guys to shoot at, otherwise they will leave and bring down the house of cards.
They don't want to actually have a fight on their hands though.
Want to cruise in, 10mins tops TCU shoot.
Then post on external forums about how cool they are.
If you can keep sov for 6months and are not blue to at least one of these blocks, post about it. I would like to hear how you did.
I'm not expecting you to post. You will barely get 8weeks in before the establishment trips over itself trying to find something to do with itself
I'm not saying the above is the truth, but it's closer than anything I've read above.
WTB more wormholes into CSAA systems. --- GÇ£If you think this Universe is bad, you should see some of the others.GÇ¥ GÇò Philip K. **** |
|
Yeep
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
276
|
Posted - 2013.02.05 15:18:00 -
[31] - Quote
Vera Algaert wrote:There are two ways a new corporation/alliance can choose from
(1) Join one of the powerblocs, use the resources they offer you to grow and hopefully split away from them one day. The obvious issue is that you will have no reason to split away from them and probably will never able to do it anyways as you will recruit the same j4gs as everyone else. It's very easy to find recruits if you have your name on the sov map but it is almost impossible to attract competent recruits if you have a reputation for being a pet.
(2) Move to NPC 0.0, make a name for yourself, forge a coalition with other entities in your region and then push to take sov from some weak sov holding entity. You'll still have to find friends among the dominant 0.0 entities to hold on to your sov but you will probably have a resilient & competent fighting force at that point (npc 0.0 weeds out the j4gs and bads pretty fast) which should earn you some respect and give you a position to negotiate from. The obvious issue is that most of your members won't be interested in holding sov (otherwise they wouldn't have joined a corp in npc space).
But both of these require me to talk to people and I'm a beautiful strong lone wolf who don't need no friends |
Fabio Bittar
Dark Circle Enforcement Templis Dragonaors
3
|
Posted - 2013.02.05 15:25:00 -
[32] - Quote
Shanara As wrote:"(...) and I dont have the illusion anymore that i can compete with some jobless creature that dwells online all the time."
I sympathize. |
Shanara As
Psy Corp Ltd.
568
|
Posted - 2013.02.05 15:40:00 -
[33] - Quote
Yeep wrote:Vera Algaert wrote:There are two ways a new corporation/alliance can choose from
(1) Join one of the powerblocs, use the resources they offer you to grow and hopefully split away from them one day. The obvious issue is that you will have no reason to split away from them and probably will never able to do it anyways as you will recruit the same j4gs as everyone else. It's very easy to find recruits if you have your name on the sov map but it is almost impossible to attract competent recruits if you have a reputation for being a pet.
(2) Move to NPC 0.0, make a name for yourself, forge a coalition with other entities in your region and then push to take sov from some weak sov holding entity. You'll still have to find friends among the dominant 0.0 entities to hold on to your sov but you will probably have a resilient & competent fighting force at that point (npc 0.0 weeds out the j4gs and bads pretty fast) which should earn you some respect and give you a position to negotiate from. The obvious issue is that most of your members won't be interested in holding sov (otherwise they wouldn't have joined a corp in npc space). But both of these require me to talk to people and I'm a beautiful strong lone wolf who don't need no friends
or i dont speak lemming. nor sure about it.... "Gotta spend money to make money" "A fool talks, a wise man listens" "He who doesn-¦t wanna listen, talks the most"
|
Yim Sei
Ontogenic Achronycal PLC
55
|
Posted - 2013.02.05 15:42:00 -
[34] - Quote
Shanara As wrote:Yeep wrote:[quote=Vera Algaert]There are two ways .... or i dont speak lemming. nor sure about it....
lol , I see what u did there +1 Post with my main? This is my main - I just overtrain and overplay my alts. |
Varius Xeral
Galactic Trade Syndicate
396
|
Posted - 2013.02.05 15:48:00 -
[35] - Quote
If only there was space suited to small groups...
(WHs, Lowsec, NPC null) |
Karrl Tian
Exiled Assassins Equestria Alliance
178
|
Posted - 2013.02.05 15:48:00 -
[36] - Quote
That's the thing about empires....they tend require a lot of people agreeing to work together and not kill each other, hence the blueness of Sov space. |
S'Way
Bitter Vets
442
|
Posted - 2013.02.05 15:51:00 -
[37] - Quote
Shanara As wrote: the first OWN system sends a powerfull message to members and foes alike.
Yes it sends out the message to your members that they'll probably end up stuck defending some fairly worthless system (for them) instead of roaming around finding good fights. As for foes it gives the "nice place to camp afk for kills" message too.
Ok, so you can't build supers in NPC 0.0 - but they're not the major factor in wars they used to be (they're still obtainable from other builders if you really have to own one). If you're thinking about moon-goo, well a lot of sov owners don't even have the best of those.
Sov holding is very over-rated - not even the major blocks want a full on war for it anymore as the mechanics are so broken. For the average corp member it gives nothing they can't find better elsewhere - income in wh space or even high-sec is better and roaming or even RvB gives better pvp (unless you like pressing F1 in blobs).
|
Shanara As
Psy Corp Ltd.
568
|
Posted - 2013.02.05 16:19:00 -
[38] - Quote
S'Way wrote:Shanara As wrote: the first OWN system sends a powerfull message to members and foes alike.
Yes it sends out the message to your members that they'll probably end up stuck defending some fairly worthless system (for them) instead of roaming around finding good fights. As for foes it gives the "nice place to camp afk for kills" message too. Ok, so you can't build supers in NPC 0.0 - but they're not the major factor in wars they used to be (they're still obtainable from other builders if you really have to own one). If you're thinking about moon-goo, well a lot of sov owners don't even have the best of those. Sov holding is very over-rated - not even the major blocks want a full on war for it anymore as the mechanics are so broken. For the average corp member it gives nothing they can't find better elsewhere - income in wh space, faction warfare or even high-sec is better and roaming or even RvB gives better pvp (unless you like pressing F1 in blobs).
what you are saying is that sov is broken and the "good ones", the people playing eve for the fun and real pew pew (not F1-lemmings) don-¦t give a rats arse about sov anyways ?
i know of the drawbacks regarding sov space but that they are soo immense and that so many players feel the exact same way is hard to believe.... "Gotta spend money to make money" "A fool talks, a wise man listens" "He who doesn-¦t wanna listen, talks the most"
|
Ka'Narlist
Cronos Titan Test Alliance Please Ignore
10
|
Posted - 2013.02.05 16:21:00 -
[39] - Quote
Shanara As wrote: a single system could / can be taken and defended by a very small group of people. assuming you can prevent someone jumpng in and lighting a cyno.
Please tell me more of your vast knowledge |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3366
|
Posted - 2013.02.05 16:29:00 -
[40] - Quote
Ka'Narlist wrote:Shanara As wrote: a single system could / can be taken and defended by a very small group of people. assuming you can prevent someone jumpng in and lighting a cyno.
Please tell me more of your vast knowledge Sure, not like someone could use a ship that can warp cloaked to get in past a gatecamp.
Or even with a cynojammer, sending a fleet in.
Or even without using caps, having Boat throw draeks at it. Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
|
Shanara As
Psy Corp Ltd.
568
|
Posted - 2013.02.05 16:30:00 -
[41] - Quote
Ka'Narlist wrote:Shanara As wrote: a single system could / can be taken and defended by a very small group of people. assuming you can prevent someone jumpng in and lighting a cyno.
Please tell me more of your vast knowledge
misconception on my side. i forgot normal fleets could just jump through the gates :-)
i sincerely apoogize.
but the mechanical aspect of "taking a system" could potentialyl be done by a one man corp / allinace as its only needed to bring SBU-¦s or / then TCU.. so in a fantasy dream world it is doable by one lonely golddigger out in no man-¦s space...
of course reality says otherwise and i know that.
the fighting that usually goes on in order to do so (or prevent it) is merely added on "game value" "Gotta spend money to make money" "A fool talks, a wise man listens" "He who doesn-¦t wanna listen, talks the most"
|
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
6585
|
Posted - 2013.02.05 16:31:00 -
[42] - Quote
0.0 isn't for your "small corp or alliance" though ~*a proud belligerent undesirable*~ TheMittani.com: The premier source for news, commentary and discussion of EVE Online and other games of interest. Malcanis for CSM 8 |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3366
|
Posted - 2013.02.05 16:32:00 -
[43] - Quote
Andski wrote:0.0 isn't for your "small corp or alliance" though Make smaller better. Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
S'Way
Bitter Vets
442
|
Posted - 2013.02.05 16:33:00 -
[44] - Quote
Shanara As wrote:
what you are saying is that sov is broken and the "good ones", the people playing eve for the fun and real pew pew (not F1-lemmings) don-¦t give a rats arse about sov anyways ?
Yes. If sov is so good ask a lot of vets why they ended up giving up on it.
Shanara As wrote: i know of the drawbacks regarding sov space but that they are soo immense and that so many players feel the exact same way is hard to believe....
Most of the big alliances are always recruiting - they need a stream of new players to replace those jaded with F1'ing in the laggy blobs. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3366
|
Posted - 2013.02.05 16:34:00 -
[45] - Quote
Shanara As wrote:Ka'Narlist wrote:Shanara As wrote: a single system could / can be taken and defended by a very small group of people. assuming you can prevent someone jumpng in and lighting a cyno.
Please tell me more of your vast knowledge misconception on my side. i forgot normal fleets could just jump through the gates :-) i sincerely apoogize. but the mechanical aspect of "taking a system" could potentialyl be done by a one man corp / allinace as its only needed to bring SBU-¦s or / then TCU.. so in a fantasy dream world it is doable by one lonely golddigger out in no man-¦s space... of course reality says otherwise and i know that. the fighting that usually goes on in order to do so (or prevent it) is merely added on "game value" You have to shoot station and ihub as well. If shields on structures regenerate, perhaps you'd have to use an easily hotdroppable ship... Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
Ka'Narlist
Cronos Titan Test Alliance Please Ignore
12
|
Posted - 2013.02.05 16:34:00 -
[46] - Quote
Shanara As wrote:[quote=Ka'Narlist][quote=Shanara As] but the mechanical aspect of "taking a system" could potentialyl be done by a one man corp / allinace as its only needed to bring SBU-¦s or / then TCU.. so in a fantasy dream world it is doable by one lonely golddigger out in no man-¦s space...
of course reality says otherwise and i know that.
Yes and theoretically a one man corp can also take down all those tech or neo moon towers and place its own there to get rich beyond any measure. But in reality this won't work, so I don't get your point. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3366
|
Posted - 2013.02.05 16:34:00 -
[47] - Quote
S'Way wrote:Shanara As wrote: i know of the drawbacks regarding sov space but that they are soo immense and that so many players feel the exact same way is hard to believe....
Most of the big alliances are always recruiting - they need a stream of new players to replace those jaded with F1'ing in the laggy blobs. Definitely, more newbies on the way !! Look forward to their t1 frigate tackling and webbing you, or perhaps their t1 cruiser lowering your targeting range. Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3366
|
Posted - 2013.02.05 16:35:00 -
[48] - Quote
Ka'Narlist wrote:Yes and theoretically a one man corp can also take down all those tech or neo moon towers and place its own there to get rich beyond any measure. But in reality this won't work, so I don't get you point. Theoretically, you could win EVE, but everyone here on the forums is losing really badly. Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
6586
|
Posted - 2013.02.05 16:36:00 -
[49] - Quote
you see, sov 0.0 isn't supposed to cater to your risk-averse, asocial playstyle, nor is it supposed to put 10 man corps on equal footing with empires
0.0 is for empires, not 10-man corps looking to ~stake their claim~ ~*a proud belligerent undesirable*~ TheMittani.com: The premier source for news, commentary and discussion of EVE Online and other games of interest. Malcanis for CSM 8 |
Abrazzar
697
|
Posted - 2013.02.05 16:42:00 -
[50] - Quote
Carebear here. Add a mechanic where corporations of the alliances have control over a system and its sovereignty and when they split from the alliance and join a new one the sov gets transferred. So it won't be only structure grinding and sup++er blobbing that can change sov but also political intrigue and instability.
Of course that would require a more complex sov structuring and proper motivation to split the alliance control with the member corps and not just create a huge giga corp that takes the sov responsibilities. Something about risk/reward. Please visit your user settings to re-enable images. |
|
Xen Solarus
Inner 5phere
283
|
Posted - 2013.02.05 16:44:00 -
[51] - Quote
I agree in the most part, it's extremely difficult for small corporations and alliances to gain sov over space, especially these days. That being said, i'm a strong believer in "anything is possible if you put your mind to it", so over time and with enough effort and help of like-minded individuals, it could be possible to gain sov. Just would be extremely difficult.
When we first started out, we wanted to own sov, so we threw ourselves in with various null alliances. But its not the same, just joining an existing group. You're just a nobody cog in amongst a giant machine. Unless you're willing to be a very active contributing member, you'll likely not go far up the ranks. We soon got bored of a random politics, hassle and constant CTAs.
I believe wormhole space is the last true bastion for small corps and alliances. You only get a single system, but its yours to call home. As long as you can stop someone taking it from you that is. Post with your main, like a BOSS! |
baltec1
Bat Country
5032
|
Posted - 2013.02.05 16:53:00 -
[52] - Quote
Might I remind you all that chrib managed to get sov for his one man alliance and hold it for quite some time |
Abrazzar
697
|
Posted - 2013.02.05 16:55:00 -
[53] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Might I remind you all that chrib managed to get sov for his one man alliance and hold it for quite some time And he's probably the only player in EVE that can summon a spontaneous fleet of volunteers to defend his system. Please visit your user settings to re-enable images. |
TheBlueMonkey
Don't Be a Menace That Red Alliance
373
|
Posted - 2013.02.05 17:14:00 -
[54] - Quote
Abrazzar wrote:baltec1 wrote:Might I remind you all that chrib managed to get sov for his one man alliance and hold it for quite some time And he's probably the only player in EVE that can summon a spontaneous fleet of volunteers to defend his system.
And that's just down to him putting in his effort and time. |
Bane Necran
Appono Astos
1608
|
Posted - 2013.02.05 17:26:00 -
[55] - Quote
Always amused by these threads.
It's like telling a small business to just become a billion dollar multinational corporation if it wants to compete with them. If they can't do that, then they're just bad at business, right? "The nice thing about quotes is that they give us a nodding acquaintance with the originator which is often socially impressive." ~Kenneth Williams |
No More Heroes
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2169
|
Posted - 2013.02.05 17:30:00 -
[56] - Quote
Theres lots of small dudes that live, love, fight and die in 0.0 but dont belong to any big group. in npc Venal, Outer Ring, Pure Blind, Syndicate, Fountain, Stain and Delve. Sure they dont have sov but there isnt really much of a benefit to sov right now besides creating defensible positions.
New Eden is your oyster, take it. CSM Winter 2012 Summit Minutes- "On the subject of vanity items, Two step expressed many player's desire to be able to build a ***** in-áspace." |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
1278
|
Posted - 2013.02.05 17:32:00 -
[57] - Quote
Bane Necran wrote:Always amused by these threads.
It's like telling a small business to just become a billion dollar multinational corporation if it wants to compete with them. If they can't do that, then they're just bad at business, right?
Yes.
If you decide to create a small business that produces a product or service that a huge multi-billion dollar corporation already produces better and cheaper than you can, you deserve to get stomped out of existence. Small businesses should stick to doing things they can do better than the "big boys" can.
This is hard to understand why?
|
Malphilos
State War Academy Caldari State
370
|
Posted - 2013.02.05 17:37:00 -
[58] - Quote
Andski wrote:you see, sov 0.0 isn't supposed to cater to your risk-averse, ...
Nerf local.
No? |
Wodensun
ZeroSec
26
|
Posted - 2013.02.05 17:41:00 -
[59] - Quote
Its all about the ISK...
Nothing more, nothing less, Mittens, Shadoo, G.W. Bush ect are all maintaining the status quo because it fills their pockets with I$K. This is the real reason half of 0.0 is a blue ball and as a lil nemo you simply dont warrant the attention nor do you generate income.
Deals regarding Sov are made in smoke filled backrooms on some jabber server, you know the type. And Time and Effort mean very little, as soon as you threaten the profit margins of a 0.0 coalition your going to get stomped out.
But.. empires rise and fall, history is prove of that and one day you may find yourself in the position to become the next great leader. |
Unsuccessful At Everything
The Troll Bridge
1836
|
Posted - 2013.02.05 17:42:00 -
[60] - Quote
Hooray for 'Nerf the Big Blue Blob' threads! Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings? |
|
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Air The Unthinkables
2898
|
Posted - 2013.02.05 17:46:00 -
[61] - Quote
Shanara As wrote:hey there,
i am not a big insider when it comes to game mechanics and such, but I perceive a certain trend or situation in eve right now. for me it seems like smaller corps / alliances will not be able to "set their mark" in eve or (a term that I like) "stake their claim on 0.0 space. 800 man alliance with 2 allies that is the 14th largest alliance in the game sup |
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Air The Unthinkables
2898
|
Posted - 2013.02.05 17:48:00 -
[62] - Quote
ask me anything about ~space relevance~ |
Bane Necran
Appono Astos
1608
|
Posted - 2013.02.05 17:48:00 -
[63] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:If you decide to create a small business that produces a product or service that a huge multi-billion dollar corporation already produces better and cheaper than you can, you deserve to get stomped out of existence. Small businesses should stick to doing things they can do better than the "big boys" can.
This is hard to understand why?
Because it's flawed logic. They can't possibly compete, or do anything better than a multinational with more resources. If you haven't noticed the effect of a new Wal-Mart on small businesses within a community you're just not paying attention.
What you're advocating is essentially the destruction of all small business because you can get cheaper stuff elsewhere, which makes it ok. "The nice thing about quotes is that they give us a nodding acquaintance with the originator which is often socially impressive." ~Kenneth Williams |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
6587
|
Posted - 2013.02.05 18:10:00 -
[64] - Quote
Malphilos wrote:Andski wrote:you see, sov 0.0 isn't supposed to cater to your risk-averse, ... Nerf local. No?
as a policy i do not consider the opinions of NPC alts or honorary NPC alts ~*a proud belligerent undesirable*~ TheMittani.com: The premier source for news, commentary and discussion of EVE Online and other games of interest. Malcanis for CSM 8 |
Murk Paradox
Dvice Shipyards No Value
249
|
Posted - 2013.02.05 18:12:00 -
[65] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Bane Necran wrote:Always amused by these threads.
It's like telling a small business to just become a billion dollar multinational corporation if it wants to compete with them. If they can't do that, then they're just bad at business, right? Yes. If you decide to create a small business that produces a product or service that a huge multi-billion dollar corporation already produces better and cheaper than you can, you deserve to get stomped out of existence. Small businesses should stick to doing things they can do better than the "big boys" can. This is hard to understand why?
Sounds like a counter argument as to why industry should not be increased in null but be dominated by highsec as it is.
Not why they cannot be a part of sov. Most small businesses are indeed a part of a community that regularly meets on a weekly basis (town hall etc).
The bigger coalitions made of smaller corporations would be more akin to your example than a new group just starting out. "I say tomato, you say tomaCCP BAN ALL TOMATOES THEY ARE HARASSING ME I WANT TOMATO FREE HIGHSEC."-á -TheGunslinger42 Proud enforcer of the Code, see [url]http://www.minerbumping.com[/url]-á for details. |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
1285
|
Posted - 2013.02.05 18:52:00 -
[66] - Quote
Bane Necran wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:If you decide to create a small business that produces a product or service that a huge multi-billion dollar corporation already produces better and cheaper than you can, you deserve to get stomped out of existence. Small businesses should stick to doing things they can do better than the "big boys" can.
This is hard to understand why?
Because it's flawed logic. They can't possibly compete, or do anything better than a multinational with more resources. If you haven't noticed the effect of a new Wal-Mart on small businesses within a community you're just not paying attention.
Sure, i see what Wal-mart does to small businesses. My message to those small businesses is "tough luck, do something else".
[/quote] What you're advocating is essentially the destruction of all small business because you can get cheaper stuff elsewhere, which makes it ok. They shouldn't have tried to compete with the 'big boys' in the first place.[/quote]
Nope, small businesses can survive by NOT competing with wal-mart, but by finding a niche it's hard for a big ponderous thing like Wal-mart to do. Like the mom and pop hardware store in my dad's home town. They knew they couldn't compete with cheap tools and materials from wal-mart, so they morphed their business into a "come to you" home repair business that buys cheap materials and tools....from wal-mart (and Home Depot) and survived.
Or they coulda done a "Bane Necran" and expected the gubmint to some how artifically level the playing filed so they could compete with wal-mart on wal-mart's turf while producing an inferior product/service.
This is basically what the "make small groups able to compete in null sec" want, the government (CCP) to somehow prop them up so they can take sov. They don't understand that anything ccp does to support small alliances will just make large alliances that much more of a problem....
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Shepard Wong Ogeko
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
399
|
Posted - 2013.02.05 19:16:00 -
[67] - Quote
First off, holding sov in 2 systems does not make you an empire. That is a petty kingdom.
Empires are defined by being multi-ethnic/cultural. Current sov holding alliances can be called empires because they include corporations from a variety of backgrounds all working together. For example, GoonSwarm Federation has French, Dutch and Russian corporations as well as the typical US-centric/English speaking corps, and corps that specialize in PvP and others that do industry, and so on.
There is a place for small corporations in sov nullsec. That place is doing your part to help the empire as a whole.
Holding sov with a small group is just plain more trouble than it is worth. The cost of the sov structures you need to drop. The sov fees that need to be paid. The logistics for all the stuff you want to do there. Big alliances make it look easy because we have more people to spread all the work around with. Huge teams of people who specialize in shooting/defending structures. Huge teams of people doing importing/exporting. Teams to fuel all the POS. Teams to build capital ships in the quantities we need.
Wormholes are for the small groups interested in small holdings. You get a lot of nullsec quality stuff, but without having to drop/shoot sov structures and without the minimum 180mil/month/system sov bills. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
7567
|
Posted - 2013.02.05 19:23:00 -
[68] - Quote
Shanara As wrote:also: I -¦ve been playing MMO-¦s for close to 15 years now and I dont have the illusion anymore that i can compete with some jobless creature that dwells online all the time. Neither do I want that. That time is over. But uunless you have a coalition / alliance that can field about 250 pilots 23/7 , taking and maintaninign sov is impossible. is it not ?
if it wasnt, then i wonder why not hundreds of alliances constantly chip and gnawl away from those large powerblocks.
they know its a waste of time, a battle not possible to win.
so i pose the question: is the battle for and goal to gain sov space merely an illusion ? a bubble about to burst when the first of many cynos is lit when you just formed up your 25 men fleet to defend what you just built ?
I cite the example of TEST, which was literally formed by a bunch of noobs from Reddit. They've done pretty well for themselves, wouldn't you say?
The main reason they have succeeded is that they weren't above working with others. Trying to explain away their success as being "jobless creatures" is just Othering and making excuses.
Every single entity in sov 0.0 has always worked with other groups. If you want yours to succeed also, you'll have to do the same. Diplomacy is part of politics as much as war is. Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=192717&find=unread |
Felicity Love
STARKRAFT
214
|
Posted - 2013.02.05 19:36:00 -
[69] - Quote
Wouldn't worry about it.
Sooner or later "somebody" will get bored, a change in game mechanics may occur, or both, and the map will change around again.
Summers, usually, when folks have more time to fly spaceships and plot nasty plots.
Until then, it's sort of like saving your raisins for Sunday.
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Grab Stuff
The Royal Assassin's
0
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Posted - 2013.02.05 20:40:00 -
[70] - Quote
Taking sovereignty is the easy bit, its holding that system that's the problem
I've seen one guy get sovereignty on his own, I was totally blown away that he managed it. of course he had no illusions this would last, was more of an experiment. but he got and held a null system for about a day before the inevitable blobs arrived. EVE got a bit shinier for me that day, that was cool
I think the only real way to make this sort of thing a possibility is to limit the amount of systems a group can hold, only thing I can think of is an exponentially increasing cost per system held by alliance.
Although I'm seeing some hope if the POS changes spoken about happen, a hidden away POS might be just what the doctor ordered. That's what keeps me out of null personally, no safe base of operations, its either join the horde or stay out.
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Malphilos
State War Academy Caldari State
370
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Posted - 2013.02.05 20:42:00 -
[71] - Quote
Andski wrote:Malphilos wrote:Andski wrote:you see, sov 0.0 isn't supposed to cater to your risk-averse, ... Nerf local. No? as a policy i do not consider the opinions of NPC alts or honorary NPC alts
As a policy I graciously accept your tap-out. |
Ptraci
Militaris Industries Northern Coalition.
1231
|
Posted - 2013.02.06 03:35:00 -
[72] - Quote
Shanara As wrote: so what ways are there for small corps / alliances to leave their mark / stake their claim?
NPC nullsec. All the perks of nullsec, plus stations you can never lose, and you never have to worry about Sov. If you can control a chunk of that then it's a good first step towards being able to control a chunk of sov space. Of course NPC null has disadvantages too - neutrals can dock at the stations too so station games are the order of the day, there are no jump-bridges or ihubs, etc. But hell, it's a starting place for "small" corps. You'll get plenty of practice.
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Casirio
DEEP-SPACE CO-OP LTD Exhale.
377
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Posted - 2013.02.06 03:42:00 -
[73] - Quote
its called wormhole space. plenty of us have our own empires in the unknown. and most can give a **** about 0.0 and vice versa. i like it that way |
Agustice Arterius
Couch Athletics
14
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Posted - 2013.02.06 04:24:00 -
[74] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:
Man, i know where you are coming from.
Just yesterday I tried to Invade the State of Florida with 4 boy scouts and a swiss Army Knife, and then all of a sudden a U.S. Army Brigade Blobbed us (Hotdropped out of black hawk helicopters no less) and we couldn't take Sov. Then some Customs Agents camped us in the port and it was a mess.
Don't worry, I posted on the United Nations forum and told them real life was unbalanced, I expect action soon.
Honestly, as trolly and useless as this persons response seems to be, they essentially had it right.
You aren't going to be the next biggest alliance unless you do a lot of work, kiss a lot of ass, and have the right connections to make it happen.
Same thing in real life.
As The Mittani said in an interview I recall reading, those successful alliances are usually composed of out of game communities. Many of them being communities long before they even made the jump to EVE, and some of them are even older than EVE itself.
This is completely different than say a first person shooter game, where a group of people can make themselves known, simply by being good at the game and going to tournaments.
It's sad, but I do believe EVE is a good representation of real life that way. You aren't going to be President unless you kiss your fair share of assess.
But when you do make it, expect to have your ass kissed quite a bit. le mittani
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Bane Necran
Appono Astos
1611
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Posted - 2013.02.06 05:07:00 -
[75] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Nope, small businesses can survive by NOT competing with wal-mart, but by finding a niche it's hard for a big ponderous thing like Wal-mart to do. Like the mom and pop hardware store in my dad's home town. They knew they couldn't compete with cheap tools and materials from wal-mart, so they morphed their business into a "come to you" home repair business that buys cheap materials and tools....from wal-mart (and Home Depot) and survived.
Until a multinational does that better and cheaper, putting them out of business, and people like you show up to tell them "tough luck".
But back to EVE: There isn't a variety of ways for a smaller independent alliance to carve out a place for itself in 0.0. They simply can't compete with larger alliances, so my example still applies. "In the void is virtue, and no evil. Wisdom has existence, principle has existence, the Way has existence, spirit is nothingness." ~Miyamoto Musashi |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
1293
|
Posted - 2013.02.06 05:38:00 -
[76] - Quote
Bane Necran wrote:
Until a multinational does that better and cheaper, putting them out of business, and people like you show up to tell them "tough luck".
Yep, life is about adaptation. The alternative is some unsustainable feel good socialist BS to prop up innefficent small businesses.
No Thanks
Quote: But back to EVE: There isn't a variety of ways for a smaller independent alliance to carve out a place for itself in 0.0. They simply can't compete with larger alliances, so my example still applies.
Nor does their need to be a variety of ways for "small alliances" to be able to hold sov. A small alliance wants to exist in null, they better learn how to live out of a few carriers guerilla warfare style, or get used to NPC null.
Like in the real life example, the only alternative is some feel good/game destorying artificial BS to prop up weak small alliances.
No thanks. |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
1293
|
Posted - 2013.02.06 05:40:00 -
[77] - Quote
Agustice Arterius wrote:
Honestly, as trolly and useless as this persons response seems to be, they essentially had it right.
Too bad some people have no sense of humor. |
Agustice Arterius
Couch Athletics
14
|
Posted - 2013.02.06 06:28:00 -
[78] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:
Too bad some people have no sense of humor.
I agree. But when somebody is extremely fervent on an issue, as I pictured the OP being, poking fun at what they are trying to say is a sure fire way to get people butt mads, and they may overlook what you are hinting at. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3373
|
Posted - 2013.02.06 11:16:00 -
[79] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Nor does their need to be a variety of ways for "small alliances" to be able to hold sov. A small alliance wants to exist in null, they better learn how to live out of a few carriers guerilla warfare style, or get used to NPC null.
Like in the real life example, the only alternative is some feel good/game destorying artificial BS to prop up weak small alliances.
No thanks. TIme for NPCs to intervene, the new CONCORD Legion helps "small" alliances. Suddenly, altalliances spring up with sov everywhere. Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
Shanara As
Psy Corp Ltd.
572
|
Posted - 2013.02.06 11:19:00 -
[80] - Quote
Agustice Arterius wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:
Too bad some people have no sense of humor.
I agree. But when somebody is extremely fervent on an issue, as I pictured the OP being, poking fun at what they are trying to say is a sure fire way to get people butt mads, and they may overlook what you are hinting at.
oh well. i see this thread gained some steam. and the posts show that I am not the only one thinking what I think about sov.
i wont get into too much details about most posts but let me put it this way:
1. small corp / alliance being asocial (was mentioned here somewhere)
why on earth would some human with a functional brain think that i am talking about me myslef and I having the idea of takling sov ? i merely made a point. when you get together a functioning group / corp with lets say 20-40 people... thats asocical I bet you thats this groupd most of the time will work much better and efficient together than much much larger entities.....
2. sov space is for large alliances (how large i didn not find anywhere exactly) only
yeah but why is that so ? because the situation as it currently is does not allow anything else. nothing more, nothing less. imagine a brand new galaxy / set of systems. assuming smaller allaiances have the isk to get the modules / infrastructures, they should be able to get in there and pitch their tent... but in the current ecosystem its just "jabber-ping -> 250 - 2000 people blob the hell outta them"
very nice.....
3. smaller companies cannot compete with bigger ones, they have to find themselve a niche
i agree, in the real world. too bad eve is just not that diverse. when a single player can built carriers, will specializing in that area of business really be helpful ? guess not. because others can do it too. he gains NOTHING in eve for being smaller and more flexible as he would be in real life because the basic processes like production, research and even travel or mining is always capped -> their is a maximum speed one can attain and thats it. you can specialize all you want, you will only be as fast / good as others because of skills and game mechanics. there are already certain ways to do things (set up PI, organize production chains, hell even Fit a ship for specific purposes) that are proven to work. so what exactly would that niche be ?
4. go to npc-null, its the same but without the hassle.
true and in fact thats where my main lives. its hell of fun and i love it way more than my former experiences in sov-0.0. still i dream of my own "petty kingdom" as one other dude in here has put it. yeah its a petty kingdom, but it will be mine / our kingdom...and thats a difference. also i think the "disadvantage" of having to pay 180Mill / month for sov is not worth mentioning as i can make that much isk by even ratting in belt in three days time using nothing more than a drake. so yeah, sov is ohh so expensive.
"Gotta spend money to make money" "A fool talks, a wise man listens" "He who doesn-¦t wanna listen, talks the most"
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
3778
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Posted - 2013.02.06 11:54:00 -
[81] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Bane Necran wrote:
Until a multinational does that better and cheaper, putting them out of business, and people like you show up to tell them "tough luck".
Yep, life is about adaptation. The alternative is some unsustainable feel good socialist BS to prop up innefficent small businesses. No Thanks
Wonder why the USA did not directly give their keys to China since they are more efficient at industry, but instead are flooding the currency markets to keep their money under-appreciated, like they want to avoid that. Those USA socialists... Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Kryss Darkdust
The Skulls
236
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Posted - 2013.02.06 12:01:00 -
[82] - Quote
Quote:thx for your input. what you imply is that all alliances that try to carve their space and failed in recent history had the wrong mindset, which i seriously doubt. its just that as the saying goes: theres always a bigger fish in the water
I could write a series of books sighting examples that prove this to be completetly and totally untrue, starting with every major alliance in power today which where all small fish that claimed their stakes from big fish.
Your a small fish until your a big fish.. what you are doing is effectively proclaiming that its impossible to beat the big fish, despite the fact that every big fish in the game has already been beaten by a small fish with no exceptions at some point in time and has been themselves a small fish facing big fish at some poitn in time. Every advantage you "think" they have is in your mind and is not a reality.
The only thing keeping big alliances in power today is their reluctance to fight. The moment a small fishe rises to the challenge of taking down one of the big fish.. the big fish extends their hand and welcomes them to the blue circle jerk club. This and only this is the reason why large blocs exist unchallenged today, its not because people can't challenge them, its that there is zero reason to. Whats the point of waging months of war, spending hundreds of hours and billions of ISK to claim SOV from someone when the person who controls wants to blue up with you and give you access to it without a fight.
This isn't just happening in SOV alliances either, its happening in low sec as well. Everytime my crew moves in on someones territory suddenly I get "lets be friends" emails from all the major pirate corps in the area and when its all done their is no longer any reason to actually be there except the occassion chump that strolls in through the gate at the wrong time.
Eve needs less Mittani's and more Montolio's.. The reality of Eve is that, if you don't love it like it is today, you should probobly go ahead and unsub.-á |
Zol Interbottom
Nanotrasen Inc
158
|
Posted - 2013.02.06 12:07:00 -
[83] - Quote
Just saying, the biggest groups in EVE have the advantage of outside blood, they have access to a much bigger potential member pool than most corps due to their ability to entice new players into the game, and their crazy powers of absorbing all the other corps under an alliance banner
Might be wrong about this, probably am Stupid forum posts become my MS-Paint art, send me some stupid posts if you see them |
Shanara As
Psy Corp Ltd.
573
|
Posted - 2013.02.06 12:26:00 -
[84] - Quote
Zol Interbottom wrote:Just saying, the biggest groups in EVE have the advantage of outside blood, they have access to a much bigger potential member pool than most corps due to their ability to entice new players into the game, and their crazy powers of absorbing all the other corps under an alliance banner
Might be wrong about this, probably am
i dont think you are but i -¦ve been called many things, including wrong.
one of the reasons i am not buying the argument "everyone can do what they did" and think its total BS.
how long since theres basically four colors on the eve sov map ? lets make it three. HBC, CFC and the red stuff.
how many major changes happened ?
numbers will always beat skill, some recent wars have very much shown and proved that. its a shame but its a fact. i strongly beleive that as a small corp / alliance you can seriously bugger those large powerblocks, but really "challenge" them ? c-¦mon, lets be honest about that. how do you challenge soemthing with several 250 men fleets ?
i mean its not even possible (with the current mechanics as they are) to stand up against the worst pvp-fleets in existence if they have more numbers and use hotdrops in any situation possible,. sure you can adapt and evade, win the occasional battle and / or even kick their asses once in a while, but really beat them ?? put that in larger context and you have the current sov problematic we are discussing.
whith the current very constructive advices listed here, the only option i see is the following: a: earn a gazillion isk by doing boring stuff, all the while networking the **** ou of the ingame and out-of-game channels and recruit (why they would join at this point does elude me somehow though), and then go to war and "take whats rightfully yours"
option b: give up about the idea of ever having sov for a prolonged time without having to kiss asses, blue everyone / someone larger (selling out)
because option c: start small, annoy and fight and get momentum as you do is just not possible. i have yet to experience a fleet op in CFC (in my short but memorable time in there) where of 200-400 pilots logged in, about 140-200 people simply do something else once they learn that the opponent for the day is a small, 50 man corp with some POS-¦s and TCU-¦s.
if that ever happens, write me a mail please
"Gotta spend money to make money" "A fool talks, a wise man listens" "He who doesn-¦t wanna listen, talks the most"
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Gillia Winddancer
Shiny Noble Crown Services
307
|
Posted - 2013.02.06 12:29:00 -
[85] - Quote
Mithrantir Ob'lontra wrote:So you have already set your mind that if your alliance goes and claims a chunk of 0.0, you all will die and fail horribly.
And then you wonder if it's out of the question to do carve an empire for your alliance in 0.0.
Let me tell you something With that mentality, yes it is.
If you want something you have to go after it. If you are expecting that someone will handle you and your alliance a place to live in 0.0, just because, you are gravely mistaken.
Baghdad Bob in action. |
Gillia Winddancer
Shiny Noble Crown Services
307
|
Posted - 2013.02.06 12:37:00 -
[86] - Quote
Kryss Darkdust wrote:Quote:thx for your input. what you imply is that all alliances that try to carve their space and failed in recent history had the wrong mindset, which i seriously doubt. its just that as the saying goes: theres always a bigger fish in the water I could write a series of books sighting examples that prove this to be completetly and totally untrue, starting with every major alliance in power today which where all small fish that claimed their stakes from big fish. Your a small fish until your a big fish.. what you are doing is effectively proclaiming that its impossible to beat the big fish, despite the fact that every big fish in the game has already been beaten by a small fish with no exceptions at some point in time and has been themselves a small fish facing big fish at some poitn in time. Every advantage you "think" they have is in your mind and is not a reality. The only thing keeping big alliances in power today is their reluctance to fight. The moment a small fishe rises to the challenge of taking down one of the big fish.. the big fish extends their hand and welcomes them to the blue circle jerk club. This and only this is the reason why large blocs exist unchallenged today, its not because people can't challenge them, its that there is zero reason to. Whats the point of waging months of war, spending hundreds of hours and billions of ISK to claim SOV from someone when the person who controls wants to blue up with you and give you access to it without a fight. This isn't just happening in SOV alliances either, its happening in low sec as well. Everytime my crew moves in on someones territory suddenly I get "lets be friends" emails from all the major pirate corps in the area and when its all done their is no longer any reason to actually be there except the occassion chump that strolls in through the gate at the wrong time. Eve needs less Mittani's and more Montolio's..
You know, it's not entirely correct. The thing is that this problem has sort of evolved over time and is still constantly evolving...for the worse. I can safely say that 3-4 years ago the situation was very different compared to today.
Or if I put it another way: if nothing changes, as time goes on it will just keep getting even harder and harder for small entities to "claim a stake" by themselves. In fact the battle of Asakai more or less confirms this in that there were many who said that: "this battle hardly made a dent in the wallets".
This sort of hints of how bad the situation really is today compared to even a couple of years ago. And it ain't getting better. |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
1296
|
Posted - 2013.02.06 13:26:00 -
[87] - Quote
Agustice Arterius wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:
Too bad some people have no sense of humor.
I agree. But when somebody is extremely fervent on an issue, as I pictured the OP being, poking fun at what they are trying to say is a sure fire way to get people butt mads, and they may overlook what you are hinting at.
If a person can't handle some good Natured ribbing (of an aweful set of ideas) they have no business posting stuff on the internet. The OP is so absurd that the only real way to comment is with the same thing.
The point is that sometims things work the way they do for a reason, and trying to change that adds complications. Complications lead to broken/exploitable content and features that both make the game worse AND soak up a lot of developer time/money that could be better spent elsewhere.
CCP knows all of this which is why they are generally cautious, so things like the OP aren't a big deal. It would be nice if people would self-scrutinize their opinions for flaws before posting them though.
|
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
1296
|
Posted - 2013.02.06 13:31:00 -
[88] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:Bane Necran wrote:
Until a multinational does that better and cheaper, putting them out of business, and people like you show up to tell them "tough luck".
Yep, life is about adaptation. The alternative is some unsustainable feel good socialist BS to prop up innefficent small businesses. No Thanks Wonder why the USA did not directly give their keys to China since they are more efficient at industry, but instead are flooding the currency markets to keep their money under-appreciated, like they want to avoid that. Those USA socialists...
Exactly. As an American I won't be butt-hurt over the fact that China is doing things better than we are, WE are the ones allowing it to happen with our individual and national choices. But many other people don't see it that way, they think "someone should fix this" rather than saying WE should do a better job of things.
People like the OP and "small alliances" are doing the same thing. Rather than those small alliances banding together to make big coalitions that can roflstop the Goons and Test or whoever , they want CCP to make up some artificial BS to give them an advantage.....
....Not understanding that any advantage that CCP tries to give will simply be exploited by the big boys. I suspect that why we don't see those "small holding" hidden player owned bases CCP used to talk about, because they know that rather than being some kind of access point for 0.0 solo players, it will just become another tool of control for the power blocks.
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Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
1296
|
Posted - 2013.02.06 13:53:00 -
[89] - Quote
Shanara As wrote:[quote=Zol Interbottom]
how long since theres basically four colors on the eve sov map ? lets make it three. HBC, CFC and the red stuff.
This is the problem with people not looking at HISTORY.
Since the 1st day I've played it's been the same thing: OMG the power blocks controll null sec. It was BoB when i started playing, later it was the super massive "Northern Coalition" and "Teh Russkis" that was "going to blue all of null sec". After NC got dismatled it was GEWNS, then GEWNS and TEST. Next year it will be something totally different as Goons and Test are going at each other.
Don't you people see. THERE IS NO PROBLEM. Human nature dictates that any "super coalition" that forms in the game will eventually do it self in OR make so many enemies that the entire EVE universe will eventually Sack them.
For some reason, some people have this tendency to look at the past through "rose colored glasses" and think "wow, the past rocks, the present sucks". It happens all the time in real life , and pretty much just means you're getting older. The real truth is Null sec is probably in better shape now than when I started playing (the 1st time) in 2007. |
Agustice Arterius
Couch Athletics
14
|
Posted - 2013.02.06 14:53:00 -
[90] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:
If a person can't handle some good Natured ribbing (of an aweful set of ideas) they have no business posting stuff on the internet. The OP is so absurd that the only real way to comment is with the same thing.
It would be nice if people would self-scrutinize their opinions for flaws before posting them though.
"I can be an *******. This is the internet."
?
I mean, I agree with all your reasoning.
Just saying. |
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Vera Algaert
Republic University Minmatar Republic
735
|
Posted - 2013.02.06 14:59:00 -
[91] - Quote
all you guys talking about numbers are forgetting that total membership is irrelevant because effective numbers count.
the large alliances have fleet participation rates in the low single digits, a small & focused entity can punch way above its weight just by having more active members.
you can't fill a 250man fleet with less than 250 members but you don't need 3,000 members to do it. I'm a NPC corp alt, any argument I make is invalid. |
Shanara As
Psy Corp Ltd.
573
|
Posted - 2013.02.06 17:21:00 -
[92] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:
yaddah yaddah yaddah about some pilitical crap.....
....
People like the OP and "small alliances" are doing the same thing. Rather than those small alliances banding together to make big coalitions that can roflstop the Goons and Test or whoever , they want CCP to make up some artificial BS to give them an advantage.....
....Not understanding that any advantage that CCP tries to give will simply be exploited by the big boys. I suspect that why we don't see those "small holding" hidden player owned bases CCP used to talk about, because they know that rather than being some kind of access point for 0.0 solo players, it will just become another tool of control for the power blocks.
what may elude you right here that the answer you propose for the problems described becomes just part of the problem itself or rather is a part of it.
by becoming the next coalition of many many small alliances.. what do i have then ? exactly... a large power block. so thats what needed to overthrow the existing one ? interesting.. nothing new but interesting because ->
where did i say that i wanted that to happen ? but anyways back to the topic -> according to you thats what needed to gain a foothold in sov spacein the first place. so what you are actually saying, is that i am correct in my positon stating that for small alliances it is impossible and they don-¦t belong there.
what you propose is nothing more than a better wording for "HTFU" or "adapt or die" and thus completing the circle.
the overall question i dared to ask was: is it really impossible to gain sov for small alliances or am i mistaken and you perfectly validated my assumption. dude, you are the man.
"Gotta spend money to make money" "A fool talks, a wise man listens" "He who doesn-¦t wanna listen, talks the most"
|
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Air The Unthinkables
2937
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 00:11:00 -
[93] - Quote
Vera Algaert wrote:all you guys talking about numbers are forgetting that total membership is irrelevant because effective numbers count.
the large alliances have fleet participation rates in the low single digits, a small & focused entity can punch way above its weight just by having more active members.
you can't fill a 200 man fleet with less than 200 members but you absolutely don't need 3,000 members to do it - and yet your average 3000 man strong 0.0 alliance would be delighted to see 200 pilots in a CTA fleet.
a motivated underdog could realistically achieve the same fleet size with an alliance the 3rd of that total size. Ev0ke regularly beat Goonswarm for 'Freeport Delve' despite being outnumbered on paper 20:1. |
Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
437
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 00:20:00 -
[94] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Shanara As wrote:hey there,
i am not a big insider when it comes to game mechanics and such, but I perceive a certain trend or situation in eve right now. for me it seems like smaller corps / alliances will not be able to "set their mark" in eve or (a term that I like) "stake their claim on 0.0 space.
since 2-4 larger powerblocks are holding like 4/5th of the current map, the rest of 0.0 space that is claimable is fought over by the wanna-be-¦s and runner-ups, but still large alliances compared to the usual "starter-corp with ambitions".
so either you have very good connections to some of those powerblocks to help you out, the chance to ever gain sov in eve is very very low and holding / maintaining that sov is close to impossible.
dont get me wrong. i am in no way proposing something like "break up large coalitions / powerblocks / whatnot. they worked hard to get what they have and obviously used the game and its opportunitites to the fulllest. they earned what they have...
so what ways are there for small corps / alliances to leave their mark / stake their claim?
-rent space ? yeah, everybody loves to be called a pet. -try to claim and die a horrile and very very expensive death -join others
it seems to me that building an "empire" (even a very very tiny one...lets say one, two sysytems) is just out of the question with the current state of the game...
is this just my perception ? is it flawed ?
Man, i know where you are coming from. Just yesterday I tried to Invade the State of Florida with 4 boy scouts and a swiss Army Knife, and then all of a sudden a U.S. Army Brigade Blobbed us (Hotdropped out of black hawk helicopters no less) and we couldn't take Sov. Then some Customs Agents camped us in the port and it was a mess. Don't worry, I posted on the United Nations forum and told them real life was unbalanced, I expect action soon.
Pretty much this.
If you want instant gratification, go stimulate your genitals. EvE is Hard, deal with it. |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
1300
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 01:00:00 -
[95] - Quote
Shanara As wrote:
what may elude you right here that the answer you propose for the problems described becomes just part of the problem itself or rather is a part of it.
by becoming the next coalition of many many small alliances.. what do i have then ? exactly... a large power block. so thats what needed to overthrow the existing one ? interesting.. nothing new but interesting because ->
where did i say that i wanted that to happen ? but anyways back to the topic -> according to you thats what needed to gain a foothold in sov spacein the first place. so what you are actually saying, is that i am correct in my positon stating that for small alliances it is impossible and they don-¦t belong there.
This is where you're starting to be disingenuous. I underlined/bolded the important part. You think that the fact that small alliances/groups or whatever not being able to compete at the sov game in null sec is a "problem".
i've explained the only rational course of action for your "problem", but as can be seen by your snarky and defensive remarks, your not interested in that. You probably created this thread for the same reason most dissatisfied malcontented players do: you wanted confirmation that something you don't lik eis "bad", and when multiple people tell you to bascially HTFU (though no one has done so with the style and panash I displayed ), you don't like it (thus the defensiveness).
As i tell others who get butt hurt when the truth is posted, you have only your self to blame for it, If you can't stand people disagreeing vigorously with what you think (and it's obvious what you think by how you worded the OP), don't post ill-founded opinions on the internet.....
Quote: what you propose is nothing more than a better wording for "HTFU" or "adapt or die" and thus completing the circle.
This is true, because the fact is, what you think opf as a "problem" isn't one. Power Blocks have always existed, and have always come and gone despite ill informed and paranoid people thinking that "omg one group will take over null sec"
It can't happen becuase game playing nerds are like Arabs and Scotsmen, they'd take over the world if they could stop fighting amongst each other long enough to be the outside enemy lol.
Quote: the overall question i dared to ask was: is it really impossible to gain sov for small alliances or am i mistaken and you perfectly validated my assumption. dude, you are the man.
The overall question you asked is obviouls to any non-biased observer and anyone who knows anything about the history of EVE online and null sec. You "dared" ask a stupid question and got the appropriate response to such a brainless inquiry. |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Atrocitas
2929
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 01:31:00 -
[96] - Quote
Shanara As wrote: it seems to me that building an "empire" (even a very very tiny one...lets say one, two sysytems) is just out of the question with the current state of the game...
is this just my perception ? is it flawed ?
Wormhole space.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
|
Zol Interbottom
Nanotrasen Inc
158
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 07:22:00 -
[97] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Shanara As wrote: it seems to me that building an "empire" (even a very very tiny one...lets say one, two sysytems) is just out of the question with the current state of the game...
is this just my perception ? is it flawed ?
Wormhole space. -Liang
yes but you cant hold all of the sov ever and slap your epeen around in a WH, you can only get all this incredibly defensible space that the major alliances cant take because they haven't learn the subtleties of NOT supercap blob Stupid forum posts become my MS-Paint art, send me some stupid posts if you see them |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
3671
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 07:28:00 -
[98] - Quote
Of course sov space is an exclusive club. It's supposed to be that way. Don't like it? Fight, bargain, or pay your way into the club. Everyone else did. Malcanis for CSM 8 Phrases like "you can't nerf / buff X EVE is a Sandbox" have the same amount of meaning as "If this is a sack of potatoes then you can not carrot." - Alara IonStorm |
TheBlueMonkey
Don't Be a Menace That Red Alliance
376
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 10:21:00 -
[99] - Quote
Bane Necran wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:If you decide to create a small business that produces a product or service that a huge multi-billion dollar corporation already produces better and cheaper than you can, you deserve to get stomped out of existence. Small businesses should stick to doing things they can do better than the "big boys" can.
This is hard to understand why?
Because it's flawed logic. They can't possibly compete, or do anything better than a multinational with more resources. If you haven't noticed the effect of a new Wal-Mart on small businesses within a community you're just not paying attention. What you're advocating is essentially the destruction of all small business because you can get cheaper stuff elsewhere, which makes it ok. They shouldn't have tried to compete with the 'big boys' in the first place.
Except big business more often than not will product the product for the cheapest amount possible, which leads to cutting corners and ending up with a sub-par product.
Where as, a small business, that focuses on quality and customer service. Will be able to **** all over almost any multinational company if managed properly. |
Desert Ice78
Cobra Kai Dojo WHY so Seri0Us
199
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 11:44:00 -
[100] - Quote
Shanara As wrote:hey there,
(...random hi-sec puibbie mutterings...)
is this just my perception ? is it flawed ?
Yes. Yes. I am a pod pilot: http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/DesertIce/POD.jpg
CCP Zulu: Came expecting a discussion about computer monitors, left confused. |
|
Shanara As
Psy Corp Ltd.
573
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 14:20:00 -
[101] - Quote
Desert Ice78 wrote:Shanara As wrote:hey there,
(...random hi-sec puibbie mutterings...)
is this just my perception ? is it flawed ?
Yes. Yes.
hehehe
uber -"me-so-leet" pvp null whatever hot shot... thx mate. really much insight. but hey you can use the quote-tags. well done.
anyways. flames aside. point is made by most and some very good points have been brought up. thx for taking part and sharing you vast knowledge "Gotta spend money to make money" "A fool talks, a wise man listens" "He who doesn-¦t wanna listen, talks the most"
|
Xpaulusx
Naari LLC
189
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 15:01:00 -
[102] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Of course sov space is an exclusive club. It's supposed to be that way. Don't like it? Fight, bargain, or pay your way into the club. Everyone else did. Agree, also fighting out numbered is actually more fun than being in huge blob, get into a fleet of 20 or so bombers and no blob is safe even with carriers, so you can fight outnumbered and win, been done many times. -áVote for Malcanis for CSM8 |
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Air The Unthinkables
2961
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 15:47:00 -
[103] - Quote
Zol Interbottom wrote:Just saying, the biggest groups in EVE have the advantage of outside blood, they have access to a much bigger potential member pool than most corps due to their ability to entice new players into the game, and their crazy powers of absorbing all the other corps under an alliance banner
Might be wrong about this, probably am Most of the CFC is "EVE Born", most of Goonswarm is "Eve-Born", the HBC is led by and filled by majority "EVE-born" players. Is there a third category for "Russia-born" as well, because those guys aren't going anywhere either. |
Bob Killan
Dzark Asylum
11
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 16:00:00 -
[104] - Quote
Interesting thread, but if i can derail slightly.
whether people agree or disagree there is one common theme here. power block control 0.0.
Take a step back and ask if this is good for the game rather than asking ifits right or wrong.
IMO its very bad for the game, if everyone is allied there is no war, if there is no war people make masses of isk, masses of isk make it nigh on impossible for another block to compete unless they can secure the same levels of isk which wont happen if one block "owns" all the major alliance isk gathering resources.
So there is a problem. And the agreement with the OP question about a small corp staking a claim in 0.0 is hitting close to the spot.
Eve Online would be mch healthier with 400 small corp battling for teh most lucrative areas of 0.0 that 1 super block that owns everything.
This is supposed to be Eve a cold dark place, a fully blue 0.0 doesn't fit into this one bit.
I think there should be many more routes to everywhere in 0.0. So if you want to claim a region you dont need to cover 2 entry point but you need to cover 25 for instance. making it hard for bigger corps to control masses of space but easier for them to control their area of space. If they live in a area of a size they have the support to control. Ths small corps could then in claim a smal system here and there and the big boy may not be too bothered as it would "cost" the too much to claim and defend that system.
There needs to be more ways for small guys to be sucessful (I dont mean punish the big guys for being big, just make it less rewarding for them to hold all. If taking the system generates 1 bil is a day but would cost (in ships, support, time and logistics) 2 bill to hold they just wouldn't bother. (isk figure used to make a point i dont actually mean it would physically cost that in ISK, more a way of quantifing the effort needed to hold it, hopefully that makes sense lol)
More corp = more wars = more fun = healthier Eve
Double the amount of 0.0 space, triple of quadruple it not sure how possible it would be from a hardware point of view but would give more options to the little guys. And the big guys do need the little guys if only for target practise.
Make a mechanic that requires many small groups working together to gain sov but at different locations, so we have a battle thats 10 skirmishes of 100 ships a side rather than a BLOB of 1000 smart bombs. sorry not many ideas on this one but there must be some ways. possible needing to remove the owning corps flag whilst placing yours on every planet in the system, the small guys could attack another small guy 1 planet at a time. A bigger corp could assault a power block similationously across many systems requiring the BLOB to split or lose valuable space until they can retake it.
Anyhow just a few mussing, but something needs to change to make 0.0 more dynamic with more WAR!!
|
Murk Paradox
Dvice Shipyards No Value
249
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 17:08:00 -
[105] - Quote
Bob Killan wrote:Interesting thread, but if i can derail slightly.
whether people agree or disagree there is one common theme here. power block control 0.0.
Take a step back and ask if this is good for the game rather than asking ifits right or wrong.
IMO its very bad for the game, if everyone is allied there is no war, if there is no war people make masses of isk, masses of isk make it nigh on impossible for another block to compete unless they can secure the same levels of isk which wont happen if one block "owns" all the major alliance isk gathering resources.
So there is a problem. And the agreement with the OP question about a small corp staking a claim in 0.0 is hitting close to the spot.
Eve Online would be mch healthier with 400 small corp battling for teh most lucrative areas of 0.0 that 1 super block that owns everything.
This is supposed to be Eve a cold dark place, a fully blue 0.0 doesn't fit into this one bit.
I think there should be many more routes to everywhere in 0.0. So if you want to claim a region you dont need to cover 2 entry point but you need to cover 25 for instance. making it hard for bigger corps to control masses of space but easier for them to control their area of space. If they live in a area of a size they have the support to control. Ths small corps could then in claim a smal system here and there and the big boy may not be too bothered as it would "cost" the too much to claim and defend that system.
There needs to be more ways for small guys to be sucessful (I dont mean punish the big guys for being big, just make it less rewarding for them to hold all. If taking the system generates 1 bil is a day but would cost (in ships, support, time and logistics) 2 bill to hold they just wouldn't bother. (isk figure used to make a point i dont actually mean it would physically cost that in ISK, more a way of quantifing the effort needed to hold it, hopefully that makes sense lol)
More corp = more wars = more fun = healthier Eve
Double the amount of 0.0 space, triple of quadruple it not sure how possible it would be from a hardware point of view but would give more options to the little guys. And the big guys do need the little guys if only for target practise.
Make a mechanic that requires many small groups working together to gain sov but at different locations, so we have a battle thats 10 skirmishes of 100 ships a side rather than a BLOB of 1000 smart bombs. sorry not many ideas on this one but there must be some ways. possible needing to remove the owning corps flag whilst placing yours on every planet in the system, the small guys could attack another small guy 1 planet at a time. A bigger corp could assault a power block similationously across many systems requiring the BLOB to split or lose valuable space until they can retake it.
Anyhow just a few mussing, but something needs to change to make 0.0 more dynamic with more WAR!!
As it was explained to me, it already is like that, but unfortunately with the "alliance" and coalition features of Eve's metagaming of politics and people having sandy vag's and pussyfootin around is what created the big blue that you see today.
Not a mechanic unfortunately.
So it ends up being a social problem of the players =(.
They'd rather more isk than "healthy eve". "I say tomato, you say tomaCCP BAN ALL TOMATOES THEY ARE HARASSING ME I WANT TOMATO FREE HIGHSEC."-á -TheGunslinger42 Proud enforcer of the Code, see [url]http://www.minerbumping.com[/url]-á for details. |
Leper ofBacon
HELP GRANDMA SMASH HER LEGS IN
1
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 18:16:00 -
[106] - Quote
Your OP is spot on, but only in that it is a hugely difficult task to compete with huge alliances with huge amounts of resources and manpower. What would you like anyone to do about that though? It SHOULD be hard to compete at this level, but just because you can't doesn't mean that is a big limitation. |
Christopher Caldaris
Caldaris Enterprises LLC
6
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 19:10:00 -
[107] - Quote
You're about 10 years too late.
These players went in when there was nobody and had the time to bank skillpoints and resources.
No new entities will hold sov in 0.0, it's impossible to compete against the sheer volume of wealth and resources these groups have.
It's a lost cause, just forget about it. |
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Air The Unthinkables
2965
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 19:12:00 -
[108] - Quote
All the big empires from 10 years ago still dominate today CVA, Foundati0n, Stain Alliance, Curse Alliance, Xetic Federation... can anyone stand up to them?
|
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4363
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 19:14:00 -
[109] - Quote
about three years ago goonswarm was so penniless that we were literally funding the entire alliance off ratting taxes, reimbursements were basically a token payment and we were living in syndicate without even a single moon |
Falin Whalen
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
270
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 22:33:00 -
[110] - Quote
[Luke:] I canGÇÖt believe it. [Yoda:] That is why you fail. You've got to remember that these are just simple miners. These are people of the land. The common clay of New Eden. You know... morons. |
|
Tallian Saotome
Papercut Syndicate Nuclear Arms Exchange
940
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 23:36:00 -
[111] - Quote
Your opponents are too big for you to take on? Can field fleets bigger than you?
Why don't you recruit more people so you can challenge them on equal footing, or use guerilla tactics to annoy them enough that you start to make headway?
You know, 10 people is enough to RF a POS. Every time you shoot a POS everyone in the owning alliance with POS roles gets an email. Take 100 people, find 100 poses, and everyone start shooting for 5 minutes, then safe up and and go afk.
Wait for their scout who checks it out to leave, wait 20 minutes(so he can get a fair distance away) come out and plink the pos again.
Eventually they will stop checking on the false alarms. Thats when you bring some friends and RF it. Do this to as many high end moons as you have people to do it with at once.
Let the pos come out of RF, and they rep it, and begin the cycle anew.
If you play smart and never try to go head to head with them, they will eventually have to do something about it. Their POS managers will be screaming bloody murder, their grunts will be too bored to show up since there will never be a fight, and you will be impacting their income by a significant degree if you do it right.
This may take a few months before it reaches the breaking point, but a small entity with the smarts, dedication, and patience can bend a large entity to their will. You just have to understand how to break their morale, and be willing to engage is some mind-numbingly tedious work(just like they did to get this stuff in the first place).
You can use this to either force your way in, or just get a nice payout so that you will go away and leave them alone.
Either way, a relatively small entity can certainly hold a coalition hostage by hitting them where it really hurts. The moral of the people who make the isk for them.
Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3373
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 00:39:00 -
[112] - Quote
Tallian Saotome wrote:Your opponents are too big for you to take on? Can field fleets bigger than you?
Why don't you recruit more people so you can challenge them on equal footing, or use guerilla tactics to annoy them enough that you start to make headway?
You know, 10 people is enough to RF a POS. Every time you shoot a POS everyone in the owning alliance with POS roles gets an email. Take 100 people, find 100 poses, and everyone start shooting for 5 minutes, then safe up and and go afk.
Wait for their scout who checks it out to leave, wait 20 minutes(so he can get a fair distance away) come out and plink the pos again.
Eventually they will stop checking on the false alarms. Thats when you bring some friends and RF it. Do this to as many high end moons as you have people to do it with at once.
Let the pos come out of RF, and they rep it, and begin the cycle anew.
If you play smart and never try to go head to head with them, they will eventually have to do something about it. Their POS managers will be screaming bloody murder, their grunts will be too bored to show up since there will never be a fight, and you will be impacting their income by a significant degree if you do it right.
This may take a few months before it reaches the breaking point, but a small entity with the smarts, dedication, and patience can bend a large entity to their will. You just have to understand how to break their morale, and be willing to engage is some mind-numbingly tedious work(just like they did to get this stuff in the first place).
You can use this to either force your way in, or just get a nice payout so that you will go away and leave them alone.
Either way, a relatively small entity can certainly hold a coalition hostage by hitting them where it really hurts. The moral of the people who make the isk for them.
All this for the low low price of constantly shooting and possibly reinforcing structures and never getting to fight because you'll be blobbed !
Load pos shoot ammo chaps, we're going to SHOOT POS Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3373
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 00:40:00 -
[113] - Quote
Christopher Caldaris wrote:You're about 10 years too late.
These players went in when there was nobody and had the time to bank skillpoints and resources.
No new entities will hold sov in 0.0, it's impossible to compete against the sheer volume of wealth and resources these groups have.
It's a lost cause, just forget about it.
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:All the big empires from 10 years ago still dominate today CVA, Foundati0n, Stain Alliance, Curse Alliance, Xetic Federation... can anyone stand up to them?
It's the end, CVA is gonna end us. Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
Tallian Saotome
Papercut Syndicate Nuclear Arms Exchange
940
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 01:03:00 -
[114] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote: All this for the low low price of constantly shooting and possibly reinforcing structures and never getting to fight because you'll be blobbed !
Load pos shoot ammo chaps, we're going to SHOOT POS
Right, just like the guys who currently own the tower had to do.
Besides, people are whining about how they can do nothing? I just gave them a way to do something. I did point out that it is tedious and requires a high level of dedication, but that is the barrier of entry to nullsec no matter how you look at it if you don't want to join a coalition.
Edit: and Batphone might be handy, if the aggressor is smart enough to have one Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3374
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 04:09:00 -
[115] - Quote
Tallian Saotome wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote: All this for the low low price of constantly shooting and possibly reinforcing structures and never getting to fight because you'll be blobbed !
Load pos shoot ammo chaps, we're going to SHOOT POS
Right, just like the guys who currently own the tower had to do. Besides, people are whining about how they can do nothing? I just gave them a way to do something. I did point out that it is tedious and requires a high level of dedication, but that is the barrier of entry to nullsec no matter how you look at it if you don't want to join a coalition. Edit: and Batphone might be handy, if the aggressor is smart enough to have one Exactly. The small group harassing the bigger one has a powerful batphone. Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
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