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DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
596
   |
Posted - 2013.02.05 17:58:00 -
[1] - Quote
Looking @ http://community.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&nbid=74231 every HI SEC ore except Kernite (why?) the Retriever reigns supreme....
In non hi sec ores the Hulk still reigns probably becuase its safer in the deep blue doughnut where its used
The HI SEC King is dead long live the new Hi SEC King
Ripard Teg-á for CSM 8 |
Rengerel en Distel
Amarr Science and Industry
1149
|
Posted - 2013.02.05 18:42:00 -
[2] - Quote
ok
With the increase in shiptoasting, the Report timer needs to be shortened.
|
Iosue
Black Sky Hipsters
154
|
Posted - 2013.02.05 18:53:00 -
[3] - Quote
this doesn't bode well for Hulkageddon. Retrievageddon just doesn't have the same ring. |
Lady Ayeipsia
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
533
|
Posted - 2013.02.05 18:54:00 -
[4] - Quote
Your assumption is faulty. You are basing kingship only on use, not on ore extracted, skill required, etc.
Retriever is the easiest ship to skill into that balances load, harvest time, and tank. This may be true, but it doesn't make the retriever king, just the most used work horse. It's like saying a pawn is the best piece in chess simply because a side has 8 of them. |
Dave Stark
1832
|
Posted - 2013.02.05 19:27:00 -
[5] - Quote
oh look, a blog proving what we all predicted long ago.
how boring.
"100k for notifications of stupidity, i love this bounty system." |
Dave Stark
1832
|
Posted - 2013.02.05 19:48:00 -
[6] - Quote
Lady Ayeipsia wrote:This may be true, but it doesn't make the retriever king, just the most used work horse.
actually, being the most used does make it king. so... it does.
"100k for notifications of stupidity, i love this bounty system." |
Derath Ellecon
Washburne Holdings
Situation: Normal
1117
|
Posted - 2013.02.05 19:52:00 -
[7] - Quote
Seems to make sense.
Lots of HS miners seem to be more solo oriented. So the Retriever is a good choice. Also lots of lower skilled pilots. (I have 2 toons that can fly retrievers, before I decided I didnt want to mine as a profession).
Nullsec I would imagine has more organized indy corps mining, which is the intended role of the Hulk. |
Lady Ayeipsia
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
536
|
Posted - 2013.02.05 20:18:00 -
[8] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Lady Ayeipsia wrote:This may be true, but it doesn't make the retriever king, just the most used work horse. actually, being the most used does make it king. so... it does.
Pawns are the most common piece on a chess board, they are not kings.
Infantry are the most common soldiers in battle, they are not kings of the battlefield.
Ford F series are the most common car registered in the US, they are not kings of the road.
Again, just because it's common, doesn't make it king. Kings are those viewed as excelling or being dominant. Hulls easily dominate retrievers in mining amount, macs in hold amount. |
Connery Domino
Domino Corp
SWAG Co
2
|
Posted - 2013.02.05 20:18:00 -
[9] - Quote
Someone get a picture of a retriever with a crown pronto. |
ziktreyon
Amarr General Drilling and Construction
0
|
Posted - 2013.02.05 20:35:00 -
[10] - Quote
Lady Ayeipsia wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Lady Ayeipsia wrote:This may be true, but it doesn't make the retriever king, just the most used work horse. actually, being the most used does make it king. so... it does. Pawns are the most common piece on a chess board, they are not kings. Infantry are the most common soldiers in battle, they are not kings of the battlefield. Ford F series are the most common car registered in the US, they are not kings of the road. Again, just because it's common, doesn't make it king. Kings are those viewed as excelling or being dominant. Hulls easily dominate retrievers in mining amount, macs in hold amount.
^this
doesnt seem that complicated. yes, there are more retreivers than hulks in hisec where most of the new players are...thats surprising why? |
Dave Stark
1832
|
Posted - 2013.02.05 21:03:00 -
[11] - Quote
Lady Ayeipsia wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Lady Ayeipsia wrote:This may be true, but it doesn't make the retriever king, just the most used work horse. actually, being the most used does make it king. so... it does. Pawns are the most common piece on a chess board, they are not kings. Infantry are the most common soldiers in battle, they are not kings of the battlefield. Ford F series are the most common car registered in the US, they are not kings of the road. Again, just because it's common, doesn't make it king. Kings are those viewed as excelling or being dominant. Hulls easily dominate retrievers in mining amount, macs in hold amount.
you don't pick what pieces you can put on a chess board.
your analogy is horrible.
congratulations you stated two mathematical facts, yet it still remains that the retriever is clearly dominant and thus the king. out of boredom i did the maths on it, you basically have to mine less than 1 jetcan per day, for 2 months to sit in a mackinaw.
are you trying to say the only reason retrievers are so abundant is because.... only characters younger than 2 months old are miners? aka they have no choice in what ship they can fly.
"100k for notifications of stupidity, i love this bounty system." |
ziktreyon
Amarr General Drilling and Construction
0
|
Posted - 2013.02.05 21:32:00 -
[12] - Quote
no but most of the hisec miners are either less than two months old or they are more than two months old and cross training a lot of other skills (PVP PVE skills) so they dont have the time/desire to train the skills for exhumers. I think this is a bit silly especially for a new character but I know plenty of people do it.
|
Markku Laaksonen
EVE University
Ivy League
50
|
Posted - 2013.02.05 21:54:00 -
[13] - Quote
Iosue wrote:Retrievageddon just doesn't have the same ring.
Retrieve a 'geddon? Alright. *goes to market to fetch an Armageddon* |
Ginger Barbarella
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
1132
|
Posted - 2013.02.05 22:30:00 -
[14] - Quote
Iosue wrote:this doesn't bode well for Hulkageddon. Retrievageddon just doesn't have the same ring.
Hulkageddon is over, man. Welcome to 2013.
"Blow it all on Quafe and strippers." -á --- Sorlac |
stoicfaux
2309
|
Posted - 2013.02.06 03:30:00 -
[15] - Quote
The Retriever Reaving? Re-reaving? Ret-reaving? Retreaving? Ugh, yeah, *-ageddon is dead.
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Zetaomega333
HIFI INDUSTRIAL
Claimed.
38
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Posted - 2013.02.06 04:33:00 -
[16] - Quote
Its not the king it just means highsec is full of either people to god damn lazy to use a covetor and make more isk or havnt trained for a covetor yet.
Hulk is still the best ore, merc, ice miner period. |
Hir Miriel
Elves In Space
48
|
Posted - 2013.02.06 04:52:00 -
[17] - Quote
http://www.nypost.com/rw/nypost/2013/01/30/news/web_photos/lab--300x300.jpg
My Retriever. |
Termy Rockling
EVE University
Ivy League
21
|
Posted - 2013.02.06 09:44:00 -
[18] - Quote
Zetaomega333 wrote:Its not the king it just means highsec is full of either people to god damn lazy to use a covetor and make more isk or havnt trained for a covetor yet.
Theres a difference in covetor / retriever training ? 
No but seriously, why use covetor if you just solomine casually like many retrievers do.
I can totally understand the more hardcore miners goin for hulks and whatnot for more yield in mining fleets.
|
FapFap McLotionhand
Singularity Productions
Rookie Empire
1
|
Posted - 2013.02.06 09:52:00 -
[19] - Quote
Hir Miriel wrote:http://www.nypost.com/rw/nypost/2013/01/30/news/web_photos/lab--300x300.jpg
My Retriever.
so much win in one pic  |
Dave Stark
1834
|
Posted - 2013.02.06 11:36:00 -
[20] - Quote
Termy Rockling wrote:Zetaomega333 wrote:Its not the king it just means highsec is full of either people to god damn lazy to use a covetor and make more isk or havnt trained for a covetor yet. Theres a difference in covetor / retriever training ? No but seriously, why use covetor if you just solomine casually like many retrievers do. I can totally understand the more hardcore miners goin for hulks and whatnot for more yield in mining fleets.
yes, there is. the higher level of mining barge you have the bigger the gap in yield between the two ships.
sadly the guy still has no understanding that just because you mine more per cycle doesn't mean you mine more over all due to the fact that you waste so much time warping to and from the belt in a covetor unless you have a dedicated hauler.
"100k for notifications of stupidity, i love this bounty system." |
Buck Badger
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
5
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 00:48:00 -
[21] - Quote
Iosue wrote:this doesn't bode well for Hulkageddon. Retrievageddon just doesn't have the same ring.
Venturageddon!!!!!
"Trust no one.-á As soon as God crapped out the third caveman a conspiracy was hatched against one of them."-á Hunter Gathers |
Not Politically Correct
Veerhouven Ventures
139
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 00:04:00 -
[22] - Quote
DarthNefarius wrote:Looking @ http://community.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&nbid=74231 every HI SEC ore except Kernite (why?) the Retriever reigns supreme.... In non hi sec ores the Hulk still reigns probably becuase its safer in the deep blue doughnut where its used The HI SEC King is dead long live the new Hi SEC King
But the Retriever's yield is so much lower. ??
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elise densi
19
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Posted - 2013.02.08 16:40:00 -
[23] - Quote
What about the mackinhaw ?
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Not Politically Correct
Veerhouven Ventures
139
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 21:53:00 -
[24] - Quote
elise densi wrote:What about the mackinhaw ?
Lower yield than a Hulk.
|
Felicity Love
STARKRAFT
224
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 22:12:00 -
[25] - Quote
Iosue wrote:this doesn't bode well for Hulkageddon. Retrievageddon just doesn't have the same ring.
RETribution.
Sorted.
|
Not Politically Correct
Veerhouven Ventures
139
|
Posted - 2013.02.09 00:00:00 -
[26] - Quote
Felicity Love wrote:Iosue wrote:this doesn't bode well for Hulkageddon. Retrievageddon just doesn't have the same ring. RETribution. Sorted.
Why didn't you just say, "Posted in a thraed that had meaning, but I have no idea what it is."?
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GreenSeed
182
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Posted - 2013.02.09 10:50:00 -
[27] - Quote
Lady Ayeipsia wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Lady Ayeipsia wrote:This may be true, but it doesn't make the retriever king, just the most used work horse. actually, being the most used does make it king. so... it does. Pawns are the most common piece on a chess board, they are not kings. Infantry are the most common soldiers in battle, they are not kings of the battlefield. Ford F series are the most common car registered in the US, they are not kings of the road. Again, just because it's common, doesn't make it king. Kings are those viewed as excelling or being dominant. Hulls easily dominate retrievers in mining amount, macs in hold amount.
i have no idea why are your arguing semantics, the op is unusually clear on his point. (he usually makes no sence on his posts)
his point is, given the cost-results ratio being completly skewed thanks to the WORST rebalance in eve history, the hulk is a over priced piece of crap.
let me put it this way, if you live in highsec and you mine in hulks claiming that math dictates they have the best isk/h, then you are a simple minded buffoon. that's NOT the whole equation, part of the equation must be amortization costs. once you take into account amortization mining in a hulk is a fools errand, noone should even undock, or even manufacture those things for highsec use.
they are kings of nothing, overly expensive noob traps. claiming that they have the best yield is like saying officer fittings make you the "king" of missions or anoms because they beat anything else... except they are so expensive and they make such coveted killmails that not even using the low level officer stuff is worthwhile, people will gank you. and yeah, there's plenty of officer stuff that's under a bill a piece, cheaper than deadspace, but people will still go to stupid efforts just to get that killmail.
the cost and risk must be part of the equation like everything in eve, that's why officer fittings are noob bait, same with hulks.
as it is now, 200m for 2m isk/h over a covetor, knowing you will be the primary target is just plain stupidity.
people have been saying this was the wrong thing to do since the "barge rebalance" was announced, in the old days miners could mine trough hulkgeddon losing ships and making a profit at the end, now its just pointless. the correct way of rebalancing barges had to be to SLASH production costs by at least 70% and leaving them as they were stat wise, the only good thing to come out of the rabalance is the skiff... i cant wait to see 20 morons gank a 120kehp skiff and botch the kill 50% of the time. spending 200% of the target ships worth to kill it. 
if they had reduced production costs, instead of a half assed buff to tank and utility, you would have mineral costs going down, and the belts full of targets.
instead all you get is skiffgeddon, have fun. |
Katran Luftschreck
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
849
|
Posted - 2013.02.09 15:34:00 -
[28] - Quote
Factor in that when one compares the cost, in both skill training time and sheer ISK, between a Retriever and a Mackinaw then odds are the majority of Mackinaw users are just old pre-change solo Hulk pilots who just happened to already have the skills & ISK sitting around and simply swapped ships, rather than "new miners" looking to upgrade.
Meaning: If you already had the skills and ISK (via Hulk last year) then Mackinaw was worth the upgrade. But if you didn't already have it... it's really just not worth it.
EvE Forum Bingo |
Not Politically Correct
Veerhouven Ventures
139
|
Posted - 2013.02.09 15:57:00 -
[29] - Quote
GreenSeed wrote:
his point is, given the cost-results ratio being completly skewed thanks to the WORST rebalance in eve history, the hulk is a over priced piece of crap.
Over time, small differences can turn into big profits.
But let's look at theoretical maxim yield per second. My Hulk pilot has a theoretical max yield of 46 m3/sec with implants, boost, and a T2 fit. Slightly less with a Mackinaw. If flying a Covetor her yield is considerably less. Somewhere in the high 30s. Now there isn't any direct conversion between m3 and ISK, but I think it is a better comparison tool than units per second, because that varies with ore type.
So consider 8 m3/sec for maybe 8 hours per week, for two years, and I think she has more than paid for her Hulk out of the difference between what it mines and what a Covetor can do.
I didn't like the rebalance, either. But I have the impression that CCP doesn't really care what we want. |
Kate stark
Perkone
Caldari State
36
|
Posted - 2013.02.09 17:27:00 -
[30] - Quote
Not Politically Correct wrote:GreenSeed wrote:
his point is, given the cost-results ratio being completly skewed thanks to the WORST rebalance in eve history, the hulk is a over priced piece of crap.
Over time, small differences can turn into big profits. But let's look at theoretical maxim yield per second. My Hulk pilot has a theoretical max yield of 46 m3/sec with implants, boost, and a T2 fit. Slightly less with a Mackinaw. If flying a Covetor her yield is considerably less. Somewhere in the high 30s. Now there isn't any direct conversion between m3 and ISK, but I think it is a better comparison tool than units per second, because that varies with ore type. So consider 8 m3/sec for maybe 8 hours per week, for two years, and I think she has more than paid for her Hulk out of the difference between what it mines and what a Covetor can do. I didn't like the rebalance, either. But I have the impression that CCP doesn't really care what we want.
unless you're 100% precise in your ability to stop your lasers when the asteroid runs out of ore, you'll never reap the benefits of such a small yield difference. |
elise densi
19
|
Posted - 2013.02.10 09:14:00 -
[31] - Quote
The Mac is the best solo minder atm, while the hulk does best wit fleeted ops
sutch as orca/hulk with fleet bonuses, i dont see why the ret is the king of mining... |
Kate stark
46
|
Posted - 2013.02.10 11:27:00 -
[32] - Quote
elise densi wrote:The Mac is the best solo minder atm, while the hulk does best wit fleeted ops
sutch as orca/hulk with fleet bonuses, i dont see why the ret is the king of mining...
because it has pretty much the same yield as the mack, and costs about 1/5 of the price, and mack kills are better for your isk efficiency on killboards so if some one *really* wants to get a kill today, it won't be your **** fit 30m isk retriever.
in short, the mackinaw just doesn't really offer anything that a retriever doesn't, considering the price difference. |
Kestrix
Industrial Renaissance
MinTek Conglomerate
83
|
Posted - 2013.02.11 12:54:00 -
[33] - Quote
Well I still like my hulk |
Dex Thunakar
Hidden Agenda
Deep Space Engineering
13
|
Posted - 2013.02.11 14:48:00 -
[34] - Quote
Eh? Mackinaw still beats Retriever, right? No clue what's wrong with OP.... |
Dex Thunakar
Hidden Agenda
Deep Space Engineering
13
|
Posted - 2013.02.11 14:50:00 -
[35] - Quote
Kate stark wrote:elise densi wrote:The Mac is the best solo minder atm, while the hulk does best wit fleeted ops
sutch as orca/hulk with fleet bonuses, i dont see why the ret is the king of mining... because it has pretty much the same yield as the mack, and costs about 1/5 of the price, and mack kills are better for your isk efficiency on killboards so if some one *really* wants to get a kill today, it won't be your **** fit 30m isk retriever. in short, the mackinaw just doesn't really offer anything that a retriever doesn't, considering the price difference.
"Pretty much" the same yield? Perhaps... but still more yield also.... |
Kate stark
91
|
Posted - 2013.02.11 19:20:00 -
[36] - Quote
Dex Thunakar wrote:Kate stark wrote:elise densi wrote:The Mac is the best solo minder atm, while the hulk does best wit fleeted ops
sutch as orca/hulk with fleet bonuses, i dont see why the ret is the king of mining... because it has pretty much the same yield as the mack, and costs about 1/5 of the price, and mack kills are better for your isk efficiency on killboards so if some one *really* wants to get a kill today, it won't be your **** fit 30m isk retriever. in short, the mackinaw just doesn't really offer anything that a retriever doesn't, considering the price difference. "Pretty much" the same yield? Perhaps... but still more yield also....
1% yield per level. once you hit exumer 3 or 4, the amount of training for an extra 1% honestly isn't worth it unless you're OCD about min/maxing.
unless you own, and efficiently use a hulk i wouldn't reccomend you train exhumer V. again, a 1% yield increase is completely worthless unless you're 100% accurate at shortcycling asteroids.
i'm not sure there's any other skill that adds so little reward for the same time investment when looking at exhumers V |
Charles the Miner
Amarr Empire
7
|
Posted - 2013.02.11 21:49:00 -
[37] - Quote
The Retriever is King, if you are foreveralone.jpg 
True miners should strut their stuff in fleets. Even if they are just your own alts  |
Kate stark
95
|
Posted - 2013.02.11 21:53:00 -
[38] - Quote
Charles the Miner wrote:The Retriever is King, if you are foreveralone.jpg True miners should strut their stuff in fleets. Even if they are just your own alts
and i'll still use a mackinaw because i'm busy watching jack bauer being awesome. |
Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
459
|
Posted - 2013.02.13 18:24:00 -
[39] - Quote
Zetaomega333 wrote:Its not the king it just means highsec is full of either people to god damn lazy to use a covetor and make more isk or havnt trained for a covetor yet.
Hulk is still the best ore, merc, ice miner period.
So you missed the part where the different skill requirements were removed? Retriever takes the same skill requirements as the covetor now. Only difference is focus and bonuses.
A mining barge 1 you can fly all three. But the yield is nearly identical. procurer gets its single strip miner bonused 200% making it equal to 3. Retriever gets its two stripminers bonused by 50% making them equal to 3. Covetor has 3 stripminers. It is not until you get mining barge trained a few levels that the extra 4% per level the covetor gets really makes a difference.
The large Cargo hold of the retriever results in less trips to station which more than makes up for its slight reduction in yield. mining barge 5 gives the covetor a 20% yield gain over the retriever, but at mining barge 2% it is only 8%. The procurer gets a 5% per level shield bonus which with a tanked fit can make it very hard to gank.
Even with exhumers the gap in yield has been vastly reduced. With the basic bonuses making all ships basically equal to a base yield of 3 strip miners it is only the per level bonuses that set them apart. At exhumers 5 the Skiff and Mack get a 5% yield bonus(1% per level x 5 exhumers), while the Hulk gets 30% bonus (3% per level x 5 mining barge + 3% per level x 5 exhumers).
Although this does seem different then I recall from the initial change. I though the retriever had better yield then the procurer, It still dos if you fit a 3rd MLU, but was it a stealth change or did I just miss it in the patch notes? Or am I remembering wrong?
|
Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
459
|
Posted - 2013.02.13 18:32:00 -
[40] - Quote
In case anyone is interested in what a truly maxed Hulk can actually pull in. At least on paper.
Skills that affect yield for strip miners are;
mining - 25% at level 5 (5% per level)
Astrogeology - 25% at level 5 (5% per level)
ore specific 4 for ability to use T2 crystals - 75%
mining barge skill - varies per ship on a per level basis. 15% for Hulk (3% per level)
exhumers skill - varies per ship on a per level basis 15% on Hulk (3% per level)
MLU II - 9% bonus per module Hulk can use 2 while Mack can use 3 - 18% on Hulk
Considering a HULK runs 3 strip miners on a 3 minute cycle, yield of a single strip miner is equal to over all yield per minute.
Although this looks like a total of 173% bonus, it is actually much more, because each bonus is added one at a time one level at a time, so the bonuses are compounded. the 75% from the crystals is added last, so it is 75% of you already boosted yield, not 75% of the base. so if we start with the base yield of a strip miner II of 360m3/cycle you do not end up with 982m3 but with 1638m3. Based on max skills and Max yield Fit. Adding a 5% yield implant takes that to 1720. Add Michi implant your at 1806. Before any fleet boosts. Max ORCA boost is 10% with mining foreman implant plus cycle time bonus Which I believe works out to about a 60% boost to yield/min. Which takes you to 2890m3/min. You can then gain another up to 404m3/min with Mining drone II's with max skills and drone rigs.
A dedicated miner who actually maxes out everything, including skills, implants, fit, and fleet boosts, can actually have a max yield on paper of well over 3000m3/min with a HULK. 3294m3/min by my math, (might have made a mistake, but should be very close). Acording to Cerlestes.de even mining nothing but veldspar that will net you about 590K isk per minute or over 35 mil per hour, if you could find a grav sit of Hed/Hem(currently the top ores according to cerlestes.de) which seems common in high sec, you could make as much as 54 million isk per hour. Pretty nice income if you spend the time and resources to actually max out your yield.
So next time you look at you skills and say, WTF I got decent skills, why am I only making 18M/hour. You NEED max skills, implants, and boosts to hit these numbers. Decent skills with decent boosts will only put you in the 20-25M range. |
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