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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 3 post(s)
thrulinn The Scope Gallente Federation 0	Posted - 2011.10.19 13:13:00 - [121] - Quote Very interesting, but to the OP, here is the link to the ship you seem to not understand. http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Anshar See the pretty picture that show's the gold 2 in the upper left hand corner signifying it IS a T2 ship? http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Obelisk See the pretty picture? The ships look exactly the same. A few of there stats are the exact same. Mass and Volume. The developers of this game say this IS a T2 ship. Not a suppercap. Get over it.
Weaselior BUTTECORP INC Goonswarm Federation 1015	Posted - 2011.10.19 15:32:00 - [122] - Quote Centra Spike wrote: Blockade Runners are hard to kill, yes, but jumping through a gate and cloaking is no where near the same as jumping to a cyno in dock range. how on earth could someone get a ship from within docking range to outside docking range in 30s this is really a problem an Elite PvP alliance should be able to solve
Weaselior BUTTECORP INC Goonswarm Federation 1015	Posted - 2011.10.19 15:34:00 - [123] - Quote Centra Spike wrote: I don't think it's an unfair comparison, in their role of logistics the JF is a supercapital. in the role of an interceptor, the dramiel is a supercapital in the role of a hac, the cynabal is a supercapital in the role of 0.0 tower fueling the rorqual is a supercapital in the role of mining the hulk is a supercapital you see, because supercapital just means "things that are the best at their role"
Kulsto Ribro Deep Space Legacy REN0VATI0 0	Posted - 2011.10.19 16:31:00 - [124] - Quote If JFs are supercaps, give them a supercap nerf. Remove their drone bays and make them unable to fire their DD on subcap ships. Seriously, I too would be excited to see support fleets escort supercaps and freighters on longs and dangerous trips. It could be fun... the 2-3 first times ? Then it would just be a PITA for the rest of your evelife. Not every corp / alliance can field said support fleet everytime they need to travel. Even those that do have better uses for their PVP pilot's time. And as stated before, with current game mechanics, the support fleet could not do much to prevent JFs to be alpha by a large enough blob. JFs may be OP but nerfing them could make daily logistic a nightmare, keeping even more alliances away from null.
Carrier incoming Hotdrop University of Caille Gallente Federation 0	Posted - 2011.10.19 17:26:00 - [125] - Quote wine wine wine you people are killing this game, things arent balanced this, things are overpowered that you peeps just shut up and stop complaining and just enjoy the game as it is
Centra Spike Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion 53	Posted - 2011.10.19 21:46:00 - [126] - Quote thrulinn wrote: Very interesting, but to the OP, here is the link to the ship you seem to not understand. http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Anshar See the pretty picture that show's the gold 2 in the upper left hand corner signifying it IS a T2 ship? http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Obelisk See the pretty picture? The ships look exactly the same. A few of there stats are the exact same. Mass and Volume. The developers of this game say this IS a T2 ship. Not a suppercap. Get over it. A rose by any other name would still smell as sweet. Weaselior wrote: how on earth could someone get a ship from within docking range to outside docking range in 30s this is really a problem an Elite PvP alliance should be able to solve How indeed, I defer to your vastly superior knowledge, my alliance is currently cowering in lowsec awaiting the impending Supercapital nerf. http://i.imgur.com/sFV4q.jpg Please tell me how you would bump this Anshar off this station. Weaselior wrote: in the role of an interceptor, the dramiel is a supercapital in the role of a hac, the cynabal is a supercapital in the role of 0.0 tower fueling the rorqual is a supercapital in the role of mining the hulk is a supercapital you see, because supercapital just means "things that are the best at their role" No, none of those ships is streets ahead of it's next lower tier, with the possible exception of the Dramiel. You do remember how a Dramiel couldn't track my Avatar at 20km? Kulsto Ribro wrote: If JFs are supercaps, give them a supercap nerf. Remove their drone bays and make them unable to fire their DD on subcap ships. Seriously, I too would be excited to see support fleets escort supercaps and freighters on longs and dangerous trips. It could be fun... the 2-3 first times ? Then it would just be a PITA for the rest of your evelife. Not every corp / alliance can field said support fleet everytime they need to travel. Even those that do have better uses for their PVP pilot's time. And as stated before, with current game mechanics, the support fleet could not do much to prevent JFs to be alpha by a large enough blob. JFs may be OP but nerfing them could make daily logistic a nightmare, keeping even more alliances away from null. Just because something won't be fun doesn't mean it should not be addressed.
steave435 Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion 24	Posted - 2011.10.19 21:54:00 - [127] - Quote Weaselior wrote: Centra Spike wrote: I don't think it's an unfair comparison, in their role of logistics the JF is a supercapital. in the role of an interceptor, the dramiel is a supercapital in the role of a hac, the cynabal is a supercapital in the role of 0.0 tower fueling the rorqual is a supercapital in the role of mining the hulk is a supercapital you see, because supercapital just means "things that are the best at their role" Except....none of those are capitals, other then the Rorq. Sure, we can re-classify that as a supercap too if you want to consider Orcas as proper caps.
Weaselior BUTTECORP INC Goonswarm Federation 1024	Posted - 2011.10.20 01:55:00 - [128] - Quote steave435 wrote: Weaselior wrote: Centra Spike wrote: I don't think it's an unfair comparison, in their role of logistics the JF is a supercapital. in the role of an interceptor, the dramiel is a supercapital in the role of a hac, the cynabal is a supercapital in the role of 0.0 tower fueling the rorqual is a supercapital in the role of mining the hulk is a supercapital you see, because supercapital just means "things that are the best at their role" Except....none of those are capitals, other then the Rorq. Sure, we can re-classify that as a supercap too if you want to consider Orcas as proper caps. look we're clearly not using words to mean their actual meaning given we are classifying jump freighters as supercapitals
Weaselior BUTTECORP INC Goonswarm Federation 1024	Posted - 2011.10.20 01:56:00 - [129] - Quote Centra Spike wrote: No, none of those ships is streets ahead of it's next lower tier, with the possible exception of the Dramiel. You do remember how a Dramiel couldn't track my Avatar at 20km? so we're agreed the dramiel is a supercap then?
Weaselior BUTTECORP INC Goonswarm Federation 1024	Posted - 2011.10.20 01:58:00 - [130] - Quote Centra Spike wrote: How indeed, I defer to your vastly superior knowledge, my alliance is currently cowering in lowsec awaiting the impending Supercapital nerf. http://i.imgur.com/sFV4q.jpg Please tell me how you would bump this Anshar off this station. with something big, duh
Weaselior BUTTECORP INC Goonswarm Federation 1024	Posted - 2011.10.20 02:18:00 - [131] - Quote in all seriousness, here is why you are wrong: the problem with supercaps are not merely they are too good. it's that they eliminate a great deal of content from the game due to the overwhelming superiority of a supercap blob against anything else, reducing the types of fun gameplay possible jump freighters do not: it's not a problem the jump freighter is much better than any other way of moving things because moving things isn't supposed to be a rocks paper scissors thing jump freighters, by enabling 0.0 logistics, enable more gameplay than their absence would. the same is not true of supercaps, or other fotm pvp ships, and this is the fundamental difference between the two lets say they come out with superhulk, that mines 10x as fast as a normal hulk. is this a problem? no: it merely increases the length of the "mining grind". every type of mining ship is inferior to the hulk or mack, but that's not a problem: mining is just a grind when it comes to pvp, however, that is a problem. when a fleet of supercaps blaps anything it faces except a better supercap fleet, then there is less gameplay possible, because PvP isn't a grind, its a competition and competitions are not fun when there's a single correct strategy. rocks paper scissors is no fun if rock beats anything but a bigger rock so in essence, no matter how much you complain - even if you happen to be correct - about how good jump freighters are at their role, you utterly miss the point when you compare them to supercaps. 0.0 logistics being easy and effective leads to better wars, more types of gameplay, and more fun. logistics being a pain in the ass does not
Tarsas Phage Gank Bangers Moar Tears 21	Posted - 2011.10.20 03:19:00 - [132] - Quote The problems (and I use the term loosely) with JFs are not that JFs are OP, it's a combination of bad game mechanics and, most of all, buggy game mechanics that prevent more of these from dying. JFs ply their role with plausible realism. Nerfing those properties to make up for deficiencies elsewhere will not solve anything.
Centra Spike Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion 54	Posted - 2011.10.20 05:33:00 - [133] - Quote Weaselior wrote: in all seriousness, here is why you are wrong: the problem with supercaps are not merely they are too good. it's that they eliminate a great deal of content from the game due to the overwhelming superiority of a supercap blob against anything else, reducing the types of fun gameplay possible jump freighters do not: it's not a problem the jump freighter is much better than any other way of moving things because moving things isn't supposed to be a rocks paper scissors thing jump freighters, by enabling 0.0 logistics, enable more gameplay than their absence would. the same is not true of supercaps, or other fotm pvp ships, and this is the fundamental difference between the two lets say they come out with superhulk, that mines 10x as fast as a normal hulk. is this a problem? no: it merely increases the length of the "mining grind". every type of mining ship is inferior to the hulk or mack, but that's not a problem: mining is just a grind when it comes to pvp, however, that is a problem. when a fleet of supercaps blaps anything it faces except a better supercap fleet, then there is less gameplay possible, because PvP isn't a grind, its a competition and competitions are not fun when there's a single correct strategy. rocks paper scissors is no fun if rock beats anything but a bigger rock so in essence, no matter how much you complain - even if you happen to be correct - about how good jump freighters are at their role, you utterly miss the point when you compare them to supercaps. 0.0 logistics being easy and effective leads to better wars, more types of gameplay, and more fun. logistics being a pain in the ass does not Disrupting supply lines used to be possible before the introduction of the Jump Freighter. Moving things should never be so simple and easy. The reward of the JF far outweighs its risk. Is market manipulation not PVP? Is corporate theft not PVP? Logistics or the denial of logistics is equally valid in this game as a form of PVP.
Weaselior BUTTECORP INC Goonswarm Federation 1030	Posted - 2011.10.20 13:00:00 - [134] - Quote aargh the stupid forums ate my post i'll redo later
Robert Caldera Caldera Trading and Investment 24	Posted - 2011.10.20 13:27:00 - [135] - Quote crapthread
steave435 Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion 24	Posted - 2011.10.20 13:50:00 - [136] - Quote Robert Caldera wrote: crapthread crappost
thrulinn The Scope Gallente Federation 0	Posted - 2011.10.20 14:14:00 - [137] - Quote Weaselior wrote: aargh the stupid forums ate my post i'll redo later Its best just to give up. He will never understand the difference between a T2 ship, and a suppercap.
steave435 Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion 24	Posted - 2011.10.20 16:32:00 - [138] - Quote thrulinn wrote: Weaselior wrote: aargh the stupid forums ate my post i'll redo later Its best just to give up. He will never understand the difference between a T2 ship, and a suppercap. I want a suppercap. Sounds tasty.
thrulinn The Scope Gallente Federation 0	Posted - 2011.10.20 16:36:00 - [139] - Quote Will never have one so who cares?
Weaselior BUTTECORP INC Goonswarm Federation 1034	Posted - 2011.10.20 18:01:00 - [140] - Quote Centra Spike wrote: [Disrupting supply lines used to be possible before the introduction of the Jump Freighter. Moving things should never be so simple and easy. The reward of the JF far outweighs its risk. Is market manipulation not PVP? Is corporate theft not PVP? Logistics or the denial of logistics is equally valid in this game as a form of PVP. ok in essence, you've completely missed the point. your argument relies on appealing to random design principles you favor, but without a good explanation of why those are good design principles and why your solution would improve the game the essence of logistics is space work. it's moving things from point a to point b, in an incredibly boring way. one of EVE's greatest flaws has been the amount of space work 0.0 requires, and the sole good thing about Dominion was they recognized that and started cutting away space work (tower fueling was replaced by spending money). logistics is not optional: ccp has designed EVE in such a way that 0.0 simply requires massive amounts of material to be brought in from highsec. it's not a situation where it's optional. So, it's merely a question of how easy to interdict it should be. That's not a question of relative balance like for ship PvP (a point you clearly miss when you discuss market manipulation and corporate theft), where the important thing is making sure no one strategy predominates over all others. The reason for that is simple: if the correct answer in all cases is X for what is supposed to be a rock/paper/scissors sort of game, it's boring. you bring X, I bring x, whichever one of us brought more X wins. In contrast, logistic interdiction isn't a rock/paper/scissors sort of thing: its merely a question of how hard it should be. does it get through, or not. Now, you're able to interdict logistics right now: you can bubble and camp the destination 0.0 system. But that's hard, and you don't want to do it. Your solution is that the logistics people should have to do considerably more space-work (and much worse space-work: merely sitting in place to ensure nothing interesting happens). in essence, you want the game made worse, but in a way that happens to benefit you. escorting freighters is horrible gameplay. if you wanted to design logistics interdiction that is easier you need a system that isn't **, and you system is **. it requires horrible unpleasant gameplay. moreover, logistics are as hard to interdict as they are because due to CCP's design they are so vital, and therefore should not be easily interdictable. i get that as a non-spacholding alliance you want the game tilted your way, but you're not actually offering any good design reasons why that should be the case. it's essentially a "i want the candy give me the candy WAAAAAAAAAA" argument. there is no good reason to design EVE in such a way to require more space work: it is a bad design, it doesn't make the game better in any way. jump freighters are a good balance right now: if you are alert and do everything perfectly, you survive. if you slip up in any way and get caught, you're dead: they're a high-wire act. making them easily killable simply starves 0.0 of any real gameplay: it will mean you simply must operate close to empire and probably just out of torrinos or another highsec/0.0 link. it's bad gameplay, and your sole argument for it is that "i want it give me it". you offer no reasons why the game is improved in your model, merely that you think you should get your way and that it should be much harder to move materials to 0.0 it's a bad argument, it has no good gameplay effects, and it's the height of "balance the game by giving me what i want". why supercaps needed to be nerfed was obvious and can be made in "this is how the game is improved by the nerf" ways, and has been repeatedly. you've offered no reasons to explain in similar terms why the game is better with your model. it's a lazy, whiny argument based on no good arguments of how it would actually improve the game
Weaselior BUTTECORP INC Goonswarm Federation 1034	Posted - 2011.10.20 18:05:00 - [141] - Quote to make a long story short: you can disrupt logistics, you're just lazy and want it made easier. if you want it made easier, make some actual arguments about why that improves the game, and for extra points come up with a mechanic that does not involve space work, the last refuge of the completely incompetent designer
Weaselior BUTTECORP INC Goonswarm Federation 1037	Posted - 2011.10.20 18:07:00 - [142] - Quote also when you ignore my post to quote the summary please at least avoid making points that I directly addressed and explained why they were wrong in the long post
Centra Spike Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion 55	Posted - 2011.10.20 19:32:00 - [143] - Quote Weaselior wrote: words lmao sounds like someone doesn't want their i-win button nerfed.
Weaselior BUTTECORP INC Goonswarm Federation 1053	Posted - 2011.10.20 20:22:00 - [144] - Quote you can't nerf the post button
Lyrrashae Crushed Ambitions Universal Consortium 31	Posted - 2011.10.21 07:24:00 - [145] - Quote Look, OP: You've lost this argument, OK. Right from the off, you lost it. Now please stop posting, kthxbai. I A/F/K cloak in Jita. Does that count?
steave435 Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion 24	Posted - 2011.10.21 07:29:00 - [146] - Quote Lyrrashae wrote: Look, OP: You've lost this argument, OK. Right from the off, you lost it. Now please stop posting, kthxbai. Look, POST: You've lost this argument, OK. Right from the off, you lost it. Now please stop posting, kthxbai.
March rabbit Ganse Shadow of xXDEATHXx 17	Posted - 2011.10.21 11:03:00 - [147] - Quote Centra Spike wrote: March rabbit wrote: Centra Spike wrote: I'm not saying Jump Freighters should be removed, but they need to be brought in line with the of the game. you mean they need rigs + some amount of slots to defend themself? fully agree No, they should require a support fleet to offset their massive logistical capability or have that capability reduced. well. maybe after super- nerf i will take seriously such idea from a member of the pandemic legion.... but now...... but now: until PL stoped to drop mothers without any support fleet to drakes i don't see any reasons to speak about other "overpowered" ships
steave435 Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion 24	Posted - 2011.10.21 13:00:00 - [148] - Quote March rabbit wrote: Centra Spike wrote: March rabbit wrote: Centra Spike wrote: I'm not saying Jump Freighters should be removed, but they need to be brought in line with the of the game. you mean they need rigs + some amount of slots to defend themself? fully agree No, they should require a support fleet to offset their massive logistical capability or have that capability reduced. well. maybe after super- nerf i will take seriously such idea from a member of the pandemic legion.... but now...... but now: until PL stoped to drop mothers without any support fleet to drakes i don't see any reasons to speak about other "overpowered" ships Where the idea comes from has no bearing on the truthfulness of it.
Gulnar Metesur Republic University Minmatar Republic 0	Posted - 2011.10.22 06:38:00 - [149] - Quote PL tears best tears. Your biggest issue seems to be about JFs being invulnerable in some situations( ie. when undocking). The issue here isn't the JF, it's game mechanics, docking ranges, cynos, whatever you want to cry about. Keep the tears coming.
Lyrrashae Crushed Ambitions Universal Consortium 32	Posted - 2011.10.22 08:58:00 - [150] - Quote steave435 wrote: Lyrrashae wrote: Look, OP: You've lost this argument, OK. Right from the off, you lost it. Now please stop posting, kthxbai. Look, POST: You've lost this argument, OK. Right from the off, you lost it. Now please stop posting, kthxbai. No, I haven't; And, what is a POST, please? Considering the source, something involving "pubbie/s," no doubt I A/F/K cloak in Jita. Does that count?

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