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Deb Dukar
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Posted - 2003.07.16 18:13:00 -
[1]
can some1 tell me why i should use projectiles since the latest patch?
there definetly no benefit.
artys barely hit
autocannons wont hit before 5k range and then for dam low dmg
howitzer have a insane high rof and hit as often as artys.
gunnery lvl 5, motion prediction lvl 4, i got 2 tech lvl 2 tracking enhancers, 2 gyros I, installed a tracking computer, i still dont hit.
tried all kind of ammo, all kind of proj weapons ...
i sux so much seeing my mate standig 30k near a infinite mob cruiser spawn and shooting em with his 250mm hybrids. he does like 5x time dmg then i do while i have the better skillz.
heck ... i can kill more cruisers in ma rifter with 3 250mm then in my rupture
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got a problem with my typos? then go to ur mom and start crying :P |
Morkt Drakt
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Posted - 2003.07.16 18:35:00 -
[2]
Because - in the right setup they rock'n'roll
Some ships "need" all their cap for other things - these are perfectly suited to taking advantage of projectile guns, in all sorts of ways.
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Deb Dukar
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Posted - 2003.07.16 18:41:00 -
[3]
so gimme a hint then.
lost my 650mm scouts which were far better then the normal artys. strangly they hit more often too.
old setup:
2x650mm scouts
2x425mm autos
2x h50 launcher with heavy missiles
took out 2 cruiser @ once with this setup
new setup after getting nuked:
2x650mm artys (no more scouts)
2x425mm autos
2x h50 launcher with heavy missiles
can barely kill 1 cruiser and getting nuked by frigates (high ones)
doesnt work NEmore. @ least not my 650mm artys. 425 still does the same dmg.
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got a problem with my typos? then go to ur mom and start crying :P |
MrPops
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Posted - 2003.07.16 18:46:00 -
[4]
I use 3 650mm scouts, 1 250mm scout, 1 heavy and 1 small launcher with cruise missiles. I can still take on a whole spawn of 20k-30k pirates on my own. I have to be more careful to keep them at a distance but not so far were I can't hit. I also have to employ a bit more tactics after the patch, no more rambo style rushing. But projectiles are still a good option.
"The human species suffers from a dimensional limitation. They are not able to understand that matter and mind are just one aspect of something more fundamental. We must strive to expand our perspective so we can see what our true reality is."
Deep toughts by Mr.Pops, while consuming large quantities of Blue Pill and staring at the EVE gate in Genesis.
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Achmed Twenty
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Posted - 2003.07.16 18:49:00 -
[5]
i begin to think that 650mm artys r just bugged.
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RazorDreamz
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Posted - 2003.07.16 18:53:00 -
[6]
650 Arts suck after the patch. Do yourself a favor and train up hybrids. Unless CCP unnerfs proj, because they are at a disadvantage.
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CSM Chat Log September 25, 2003:
Fuhry> Some things we simply cannot test, and therefore we just put it on Tranq. cross our fingers and then get into panic m |
Achmed Twenty
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Posted - 2003.07.16 18:58:00 -
[7]
im currently trainig hybrid
nice that my whole minmatar ships r useless then.
bah ... i hate this kind of balancing.
its allways teh same
"uuh, projectiles r good and hybrid suck. lets nerf proj to the max and make hybrid ueber instead"
since its allmost impossible to find ne more scouts its even more a kick in the back for new players and old players who got fried somehow.
/me reminds himself to never ever join another MMORPG until its 1 year old
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Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.07.16 19:28:00 -
[8]
My experience has been that the 650mm arties are now mid-short range. At about 13km, my damage begins picking up significantly. 5km-10km and I'm regularly hitting for 100s with 230s for wrecking.
I think it's rather stupid for an artillery cannon to have to wait till something is almost on top of you to do damage. But then I think the whole combat mechanics system is pooched as well.
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Bad Harlequin
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Posted - 2003.07.16 19:51:00 -
[9]
yeah, for supposedly long-range weapons, the optimal range of the 650s is a joke. However, with the right skills and good ammo, using the Minmatar speed advantages - combined with, again, the right skills - lets you keep them at range.
You might want to train up nav, AB, accel control, etc., as well as sharpshooter and gunnery skills. You'll still be firing those 650s gawdawfully slow compared to, well, anything else... but my cruiser goes as fast or faster than many frigates, so i can control the range fairly well.
With arty you have to do a LOT more manuvering than most other weapon users, too. You need to keep your position and the target's stable as possible. Practice this on NPCs by keep a distance and going parallel, for instance. Ideally, your relative positions remain stable, and your guns don't have to track hardly at all.
Even then, you're going to kill much slower than anyone else, so get used to it. You need to increase your speed and survivability to make up for this. I can pick off most ships without taking hardly any shield damage, but it takes a while. Meanwhile a corpmate in a Vexor with Med beams wades right in and annihilates everything.
Proj, as the Minmatar weapon, is in fact weaker than most stuff and certainly not as fast, and requires a different play style. It has been said a few times that minmatar ships and combat are being "looked at" for balancing, but we'll see.
You are in a maze of twisty little asteroids, all alike. |
Morkt Drakt
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Posted - 2003.07.16 20:14:00 -
[10]
<<<Even then, you're going to kill much slower than anyone else, so get used to it.>>>
Im not saying you are wrong but i dont think "raw" damage is the end of the story by any means here.
My Moa, for instance, can mount only 3 250 rails (allowing for other good modules) - whereas I can mount 4 650scouts, maintian all those other sexy modules and have more cap to pump into a shield booster.
Which is, indeed, how i used them to kill a Moa using 3 railguns.
At that pont its all about positioning and range - whichm perhaps ironically, is where "one" would assume the Minmatars "natural" speed advantage would come into plsy (the faster ship has the advantaage in positioning).
Unfortunately i dont think any of the minmatar ships are actually significantly faster - with perhaps the Stabber as an exception.
But - not as powerful as a railgun?
No they aren't - but you can run more for the same grid and they use no cap.
There are distinctive, individual, weapon types that are - well - ****e.
The same applies to hybrid guns though - just try using any of the dual railguns to see what i mean - they are utterly useless and essentially worthless.
By design or by accident? Who knows.
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Deb Dukar
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Posted - 2003.07.16 20:28:00 -
[11]
i dont complain about teh damage of the projectiles. the turret speed is the problem.
3x 250mm hit more often then my 4x650mm do. i dont even get half of the damage they r doing.
i know that the real benefit is teh cap use (which is non existant). but therefore projectiles have half the cargo (means we have to realod more often) and a pretty low fire rate (which means we dont shoot that often). thats allready 2 penaltys. why give us another more with nerfing turret speed that much?
im unable to hit anything until i stop my ship. and if i stop my ship the mob hits me like mad and i have to autoreapeat my shieldboosters which means my cap bonus is gone too.
my speed bonus (which is pretty low) is useless too cause i cant take NE advantage outa it
my mate is doing 10 mio a day just by sitting 50k away of a perma cruiser spawn and shooting mobs with his 250mm. while im sitting there and hopig that one of my 4 artys lands a hit. if the mob is near 10k my artys r useless cause of the crappy turret speed which means my optrange from 7500m is useless to.
funy thing is taht my 250mm proj. turrets doing more damage and frequently damage then the 650mm
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got a problem with my typos? then go to ur mom and start crying :P |
Joshua Calvert
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Posted - 2003.07.16 20:29:00 -
[12]
I love getting those 280 perfect strikes only slightly less than the 330 perfect strikes for wrecking damage :)
/me hugs my hybrids
I'd rather use hybrids and make use of my race hybrid bonus.
Edited by: Joshua Calvert on 16/07/2003 20:29:59
LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! |
Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.07.16 20:36:00 -
[13]
So where's the great Hippey who swore up and down that everything was balanced when the changes were discovered on Chaos?
Using hybrids I bet
PS let me explain further...
With projectiles not using cap, I can utilize the cap for mods to soak damage while trying to get into range (shield booster, shield hardener tracking disruptor). At least that's the theory.
But by that time, hybrid and laser users have landed a large number of shots on me while using minimal amounts of cap for their weapons. The occasional hits from the artillery won't become much of a worry until I hit the 10km marker. So by the time I I get within range, I'm running very low on cap and have a large amount of damage to catch up on. Now with my refire time working against me. Along with my lower ammo capacity as well, cause if I run out of ammo it's time to hit the 10s reload. And at this range, movement is out of the question lest my tracking go to hell and back
Maybe I'm looking at something wrong here. Or is my analysis pretty much correct and one of the devs completely missed the fact they saddled projectile artillery with:
1) Smaller ammo capacity, forcing more frequent 10s reloads
2) Abysmal optimal ranges, forcing miniscule damage at ranges beyond around 15km.
3) Terrible RoF, forcing half as many hits as weapons that have damage mods 3/4ths as much as mine.
4) Worse tracking even with good investment in motion tracking, forcing people to maneuver either far more to keep lateral movement down or not at all.
And the benefits are:
1) No cap usage so cap can be utilized elsewhere
2) Variable damage types
3) Higher damage mods
What good are the benefits if you're half dead and can't hit the broad side of a planet at the weapon's optimal range. And how the hell did Hippey think this crap was balanced?
Edited by: Jash Illian on 16/07/2003 20:57:52
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Morkt Drakt
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Posted - 2003.07.16 20:39:00 -
[14]
I "Do" use hybrids on some of my ships - really does depend though:
My ECM/ECCM blackbird only has projectiles - i want the cap for running modules not guns - not that I expect the bb to be doing that much fighting... though, ironically, its a good anti-frigate setup also.
My Moa runs rails as i want the race advantage also - and I prefeer long-range fights.. which is odd as the game mechanics act against that (warp-in is always close fighting)
The small - is it the scout dual 250? - little artillery gun is a superb projectile though - just not quite strong enough as a lite anti-cruiser gun and without the range (again) to compete with aa railuser - but, again, if ya get under the rail-user's guns..
but why use a frigate gun on a cruiser? (weird but i found it does as much damage, more frequently an dhas far better tracking)
I digress - I think that some of the projectiles did get "over tweaked" - probably only in the tracking department though... it'd be interesting to see the scout 650 with a 30-50% increase in its track rate.
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Lutetia
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Posted - 2003.07.16 22:44:00 -
[15]
The problem with the med projektile turrets and amo needs a significant correction. Atm there is no usefull medium projektile weapon for a minmatar cruiser, I know about. And please, people donÆt tell me about those legendary 425 mm guns (simply sucking stuff) or the right powerups in the right slots!
The minmatar-cruisers do have their advantage for the medium weapons only (that means small weapons donÆt get the bonus).
Atm the best damage deals the 250 mm scout arty, a s m a l l projectile weapon. But you need to close in, to hit the target. At this point, you need to autorepead recharging the shield and powercore go down very fast. Now add a warp- and/or a weapondisruptor and the power is a zero within a few seconds!
Why should a cruiser come so close to a frigate to hit and destroy it ? This is very strange to me.
If you want to fire with the med guns, you need to slow your ship down to zero. Imho a cruiser should be able to fire and to hit at full speed. I never heared about a cruiser or another shipclass, that stopped to hit its target. Did you?
Further: A cruiser should not be a ôclose combat shipö in the first line. In this way I understand the dev-made advantage of the minmatar-cruiser by raising the med-turret-speed. But atm there is no usefull medium weapon to bring shipspeed, turretspeed and damage per hit in a ratio that would be okay.
Imagine: 625 mm = 62,5 cm. This bullet, fired over a range of 20 km, should do damage! Even if it not explodes, this ugly bullet would not knock at the door, it would knock down the house completely!
At this point it is okay to me, that a frigate could make the way through the fire of a cruiser, to come close and hit the cruiser from short distance. In this situation, a wise cruiser-captain should have at least one close-combat-gun. But atm there ist not ONE frigate making its way through the cruiser-fire (625 mm arty) they ALL make the run at least while the cruiser is moving)! This canÆt be okay.
In fights against more than one Pirate-Cruisers the problem grows a lot!
As I said before (in Hippeys posting): We need a usefull medium projektile weapon, more than 20 bullets to load up and a increase of the range for the shieldbreakers. All in all, we need a fair balance between all kinds of weapons per class and size.
Truly: Hybrids on a Minmatar-cruiser with advantage for medium projectile canÆt be the final solution!
To the devs: This means n o t to nerf down the non-projectile-weapons, please!
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Morkt Drakt
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Posted - 2003.07.16 22:51:00 -
[16]
That little 250 arty small is a beaut of a gun.
The "get in close and batter them" type of cruiser fighting might make more sense if minmatar ships REALLY were significantly faster... otherwise it seems a bit wishy-washy.
Your last line was a classic though - too true
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GoHa
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Posted - 2003.07.16 22:58:00 -
[17]
B4 patch:
2x Dual 425 Scout (Proj M)
2x Dual 150 Scout (Proj S)
After patch:
2x Dual 425 Scout (Proj M)
2x Dual 150 Scout (Proj S)
I had no problems b4 patch, and after patch I have no problems at all. 3 Predators, or Maradeur + 3 depredators or Liquidator + 2 Maradeurs + something 10k per... Just little bit more headache with guns reloading...
I can just stay and kill infinite spawn, like you told...Even more: I can just clear the belt, before they will respawn. 3-5 cruisers is not a problem. Doing it solo everty time, when I am getting tired to play on EVE market.
I don't understand WHERE IS THE PROBLEM? What is all this cry about?
Edited by: GoHa on 16/07/2003 23:00:40
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Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.07.16 23:20:00 -
[18]
<< I had no problems b4 patch, and after patch I have no problems at all. 3 Predators, or Maradeur + 3 depredators or Liquidator + 2 Maradeurs + something 10k per... Just little bit more headache with guns reloading...
I can just stay and kill infinite spawn, like you told...Even more: I can just clear the belt, before they will respawn. 3-5 cruisers is not a problem. Doing it solo everty time, when I am getting tired to play on EVE market.
I don't understand WHERE IS THE PROBLEM? What is all this cry about? >>
The fact that with that setup you'll be a corpsicle against anything but NPC pirates. A hybrid user will eat you alive before your guns begin to do damage. And if the hybrid user, feeling kind, let you get into optimal range with those guns he'd still eat you alive
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Morkt Drakt
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Posted - 2003.07.16 23:33:00 -
[19]
no he wouldn't - well he wouldn't if you were in a fast cruiser.
Rails really cant track well in close - those guns can, youre prolem, as with the frig, is getting there.
Ironically - as combat at a warp-in point is immediately "close" combat - theres an addvantage there - or would be if minmatar ships "were" fast.
(There's a pattern here - can you see it yet? )
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Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.07.17 00:42:00 -
[20]
<< no he wouldn't - well he wouldn't if you were in a fast cruiser.
Rails really cant track well in close - those guns can, youre prolem, as with the frig, is getting there.
Ironically - as combat at a warp-in point is immediately "close" combat - theres an addvantage there - or would be if minmatar ships "were" fast. >>
With those weapons? Er... not in my experience. My arties have an easier time hitting and do better damage at 6km or so. And 250mm rails track faster. I'll stand by what I said before: he'll get eaten for breakfast. Especially with that setup.
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Morkt Drakt
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Posted - 2003.07.17 00:57:00 -
[21]
Yeah you might be right - i'd read him as using 425 Scouts (0.0375 track) - he means the old dual 425 which is no the 650 scout (Which is a pig tracking)
Though if he DID use 425 scouts up close - lol - different story.
(Mind you the 220 scout autocannon isnt far off the 425 either)
Still need the speed/agility to orbit close in though.
Edited by: Morkt Drak on 17/07/2003 00:59:27
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Lord Zap
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Posted - 2003.07.17 01:16:00 -
[22]
Hey if you think the tracking speed on the medium projectiles is bad take a look at the stats on the large artillery. Off the top of my head the speed for the 1200mm is approx 0.001 making it impossible to hit practically anything save a stationary object. On a side note these large artillery were the weapon of choice for most of m0o before the patch but we've since been forced to shift to different weapons. Now I'm not suggesting that the patch was 'entirely' anti- m0o since many people chose these large artillery because quite simply they were the best large weapon by far. It is kinda odd though how after every patch I find myself switching weapons and modules because my fitted ones have generally taken a good beating from the pink bat.
Pre-patch my criticals were in the range of 1800 on the 1200mm artillery and this was coupled with excellent tracking, decent rof and no cap use. They were clearly over- powered. The problem we have now is that the patch has completely rendered them useless, the base tracking speed is so low as to not gain any significant benefit from tracking skills and/or modules. Its a shame for anyone with a tempest wishing to take advantage of the large projectile bonus. I just hope that large artillery are looked at soon otherwise its going to be lasers and hybrids all round..
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Fang
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Posted - 2003.07.17 01:24:00 -
[23]
I have tested the 650 Standard Artillery pieces against the 250mm hybrids extensively using the Maller, Omen And Rupture Cruisers.
I have used multiple dam mods for both types and tested at various ranges up to 35k.
The 250mm Hybrid wins time and time again with much more consistent damage much more regularly ...and by regular i mean it hits 10x times more often the the artillery pieces.
In my opinion the standard 650mm Artillery piece is a complete waste of time. The Scouts may be better but the standard piece is a very poor performer.
Fang
Sirius Corp
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Nerhtal Al'Thali
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Posted - 2003.07.17 01:24:00 -
[24]
the only thing about artillery's which bugs me is - their supposed to be innacurate but very long ranged weapons....their tracking should stay low, i just want to see a range fix...make them long ranged as their supposed to be..
the howitzer type weapons....silly RoF and range is still not adequate to balance that fact... a howitzer i want hitting consistently (at its slow rof) at EXTREME ranges....were talking 60km's with the fallof just around there maybe? huge dmg potential at a slow rof..
or something like that - they can discuss the statistics
"Game Experience And Dev Opinions May Change With The Time Of Day During Online Play"
Oveur
"First in, last out"
Bridgeburner Motto |
Deb Dukar
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Posted - 2003.07.17 06:59:00 -
[25]
as far as i figured out, the whole scout family isnt realy affected by the nerf. sure it doesnt hits as much as before, but it still hits more often.
makes me think that they accidently broke all other non market stuff.
@ least nice to see that im not the only one who sees the problem here.
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got a problem with my typos? then go to ur mom and start crying :P |
Dominique Doolittle
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Posted - 2003.07.17 07:16:00 -
[26]
Projectiles were basically over-nerfed. Any half-honest person who has used all three weapon types can tell you that projectile is by far the worst weapon type right now.
Disadvantages:
Hit rate is terrible beyond around 10km.
10-second reloads are necessary in all serious fights.
Worst Tracking.
Worst RoF.
Worst ships carry its weapon bonus.
Advantages:
Low cap use.
Low power use.
It basically comes down to whether using low cap and low power is worth averaging only 35% the damage of energy or hybrid weapons at the "business" range of around 10~35km. In almost all cases the answer is "no."
Heck I find it hard to justify mounting those 650mm scout suckers on a Blackbird. Can you still kill NPC ships with it? Sure, as long as you don't mind doing so at below half speed had you mounted some decent weapons instead.
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Dominique Doolittle
Caldari Homemaker, Industrial Spy, System Hacker
Security Rating: 9.99999999963e-005 |
Ghenghiz
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Posted - 2003.07.17 07:27:00 -
[27]
I have 4x 650mm medium 'scouts' fitted, 2 launchers with defenders (heavy & cruiser still suck to my opinion, most are shot down, and take way to long to get there)
2 Lif afterburners, 1x Neutron Shield booster
4 x (advanced) Gyrostabilizers 1
I do 100 damage at 15-20 km, often 120 damage, wrecking damage of 360.
this is all after the latest patch.
I can take on 1 maurader and 3 predators (40k & 30k) at once, with constant respawn.
Projectiles are still good.
Ghenghiz
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Deb Dukar
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Posted - 2003.07.17 08:00:00 -
[28]
@Ghenghiz
read the posts,
scouts work like before :P
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got a problem with my typos? then go to ur mom and start crying :P |
THE SINISTAR
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Posted - 2003.07.17 08:04:00 -
[29]
I wish I would of read this post before I wasted my money on the 650's today. Had 3 mounted on a maller. The misses were so bad that I had to finish off the pirates with the 2 150 hybrids.
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Lord Zap
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Posted - 2003.07.17 08:13:00 -
[30]
Scouts have been nerfed too
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