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Deb Dukar
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Posted - 2003.07.16 18:13:00 -
[1]
can some1 tell me why i should use projectiles since the latest patch?
there definetly no benefit.
artys barely hit
autocannons wont hit before 5k range and then for dam low dmg
howitzer have a insane high rof and hit as often as artys.
gunnery lvl 5, motion prediction lvl 4, i got 2 tech lvl 2 tracking enhancers, 2 gyros I, installed a tracking computer, i still dont hit.
tried all kind of ammo, all kind of proj weapons ...
i sux so much seeing my mate standig 30k near a infinite mob cruiser spawn and shooting em with his 250mm hybrids. he does like 5x time dmg then i do while i have the better skillz.
heck ... i can kill more cruisers in ma rifter with 3 250mm then in my rupture
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got a problem with my typos? then go to ur mom and start crying :P |
Morkt Drakt
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Posted - 2003.07.16 18:35:00 -
[2]
Because - in the right setup they rock'n'roll
Some ships "need" all their cap for other things - these are perfectly suited to taking advantage of projectile guns, in all sorts of ways.
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Deb Dukar
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Posted - 2003.07.16 18:41:00 -
[3]
so gimme a hint then.
lost my 650mm scouts which were far better then the normal artys. strangly they hit more often too.
old setup:
2x650mm scouts
2x425mm autos
2x h50 launcher with heavy missiles
took out 2 cruiser @ once with this setup
new setup after getting nuked:
2x650mm artys (no more scouts)
2x425mm autos
2x h50 launcher with heavy missiles
can barely kill 1 cruiser and getting nuked by frigates (high ones)
doesnt work NEmore. @ least not my 650mm artys. 425 still does the same dmg.
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got a problem with my typos? then go to ur mom and start crying :P |
MrPops
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Posted - 2003.07.16 18:46:00 -
[4]
I use 3 650mm scouts, 1 250mm scout, 1 heavy and 1 small launcher with cruise missiles. I can still take on a whole spawn of 20k-30k pirates on my own. I have to be more careful to keep them at a distance but not so far were I can't hit. I also have to employ a bit more tactics after the patch, no more rambo style rushing. But projectiles are still a good option.
"The human species suffers from a dimensional limitation. They are not able to understand that matter and mind are just one aspect of something more fundamental. We must strive to expand our perspective so we can see what our true reality is."
Deep toughts by Mr.Pops, while consuming large quantities of Blue Pill and staring at the EVE gate in Genesis.
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Achmed Twenty
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Posted - 2003.07.16 18:49:00 -
[5]
i begin to think that 650mm artys r just bugged.
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RazorDreamz
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Posted - 2003.07.16 18:53:00 -
[6]
650 Arts suck after the patch. Do yourself a favor and train up hybrids. Unless CCP unnerfs proj, because they are at a disadvantage.
---------------------------------------
CSM Chat Log September 25, 2003:
Fuhry> Some things we simply cannot test, and therefore we just put it on Tranq. cross our fingers and then get into panic m |
Achmed Twenty
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Posted - 2003.07.16 18:58:00 -
[7]
im currently trainig hybrid
nice that my whole minmatar ships r useless then.
bah ... i hate this kind of balancing.
its allways teh same
"uuh, projectiles r good and hybrid suck. lets nerf proj to the max and make hybrid ueber instead"
since its allmost impossible to find ne more scouts its even more a kick in the back for new players and old players who got fried somehow.
/me reminds himself to never ever join another MMORPG until its 1 year old
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Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.07.16 19:28:00 -
[8]
My experience has been that the 650mm arties are now mid-short range. At about 13km, my damage begins picking up significantly. 5km-10km and I'm regularly hitting for 100s with 230s for wrecking.
I think it's rather stupid for an artillery cannon to have to wait till something is almost on top of you to do damage. But then I think the whole combat mechanics system is pooched as well.
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Bad Harlequin
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Posted - 2003.07.16 19:51:00 -
[9]
yeah, for supposedly long-range weapons, the optimal range of the 650s is a joke. However, with the right skills and good ammo, using the Minmatar speed advantages - combined with, again, the right skills - lets you keep them at range.
You might want to train up nav, AB, accel control, etc., as well as sharpshooter and gunnery skills. You'll still be firing those 650s gawdawfully slow compared to, well, anything else... but my cruiser goes as fast or faster than many frigates, so i can control the range fairly well.
With arty you have to do a LOT more manuvering than most other weapon users, too. You need to keep your position and the target's stable as possible. Practice this on NPCs by keep a distance and going parallel, for instance. Ideally, your relative positions remain stable, and your guns don't have to track hardly at all.
Even then, you're going to kill much slower than anyone else, so get used to it. You need to increase your speed and survivability to make up for this. I can pick off most ships without taking hardly any shield damage, but it takes a while. Meanwhile a corpmate in a Vexor with Med beams wades right in and annihilates everything.
Proj, as the Minmatar weapon, is in fact weaker than most stuff and certainly not as fast, and requires a different play style. It has been said a few times that minmatar ships and combat are being "looked at" for balancing, but we'll see.
You are in a maze of twisty little asteroids, all alike. |
Morkt Drakt
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Posted - 2003.07.16 20:14:00 -
[10]
<<<Even then, you're going to kill much slower than anyone else, so get used to it.>>>
Im not saying you are wrong but i dont think "raw" damage is the end of the story by any means here.
My Moa, for instance, can mount only 3 250 rails (allowing for other good modules) - whereas I can mount 4 650scouts, maintian all those other sexy modules and have more cap to pump into a shield booster.
Which is, indeed, how i used them to kill a Moa using 3 railguns.
At that pont its all about positioning and range - whichm perhaps ironically, is where "one" would assume the Minmatars "natural" speed advantage would come into plsy (the faster ship has the advantaage in positioning).
Unfortunately i dont think any of the minmatar ships are actually significantly faster - with perhaps the Stabber as an exception.
But - not as powerful as a railgun?
No they aren't - but you can run more for the same grid and they use no cap.
There are distinctive, individual, weapon types that are - well - ****e.
The same applies to hybrid guns though - just try using any of the dual railguns to see what i mean - they are utterly useless and essentially worthless.
By design or by accident? Who knows.
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Deb Dukar
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Posted - 2003.07.16 20:28:00 -
[11]
i dont complain about teh damage of the projectiles. the turret speed is the problem.
3x 250mm hit more often then my 4x650mm do. i dont even get half of the damage they r doing.
i know that the real benefit is teh cap use (which is non existant). but therefore projectiles have half the cargo (means we have to realod more often) and a pretty low fire rate (which means we dont shoot that often). thats allready 2 penaltys. why give us another more with nerfing turret speed that much?
im unable to hit anything until i stop my ship. and if i stop my ship the mob hits me like mad and i have to autoreapeat my shieldboosters which means my cap bonus is gone too.
my speed bonus (which is pretty low) is useless too cause i cant take NE advantage outa it
my mate is doing 10 mio a day just by sitting 50k away of a perma cruiser spawn and shooting mobs with his 250mm. while im sitting there and hopig that one of my 4 artys lands a hit. if the mob is near 10k my artys r useless cause of the crappy turret speed which means my optrange from 7500m is useless to.
funy thing is taht my 250mm proj. turrets doing more damage and frequently damage then the 650mm
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got a problem with my typos? then go to ur mom and start crying :P |
Joshua Calvert
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Posted - 2003.07.16 20:29:00 -
[12]
I love getting those 280 perfect strikes only slightly less than the 330 perfect strikes for wrecking damage :)
/me hugs my hybrids
I'd rather use hybrids and make use of my race hybrid bonus.
Edited by: Joshua Calvert on 16/07/2003 20:29:59
LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! |
Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.07.16 20:36:00 -
[13]
So where's the great Hippey who swore up and down that everything was balanced when the changes were discovered on Chaos?
Using hybrids I bet
PS let me explain further...
With projectiles not using cap, I can utilize the cap for mods to soak damage while trying to get into range (shield booster, shield hardener tracking disruptor). At least that's the theory.
But by that time, hybrid and laser users have landed a large number of shots on me while using minimal amounts of cap for their weapons. The occasional hits from the artillery won't become much of a worry until I hit the 10km marker. So by the time I I get within range, I'm running very low on cap and have a large amount of damage to catch up on. Now with my refire time working against me. Along with my lower ammo capacity as well, cause if I run out of ammo it's time to hit the 10s reload. And at this range, movement is out of the question lest my tracking go to hell and back
Maybe I'm looking at something wrong here. Or is my analysis pretty much correct and one of the devs completely missed the fact they saddled projectile artillery with:
1) Smaller ammo capacity, forcing more frequent 10s reloads
2) Abysmal optimal ranges, forcing miniscule damage at ranges beyond around 15km.
3) Terrible RoF, forcing half as many hits as weapons that have damage mods 3/4ths as much as mine.
4) Worse tracking even with good investment in motion tracking, forcing people to maneuver either far more to keep lateral movement down or not at all.
And the benefits are:
1) No cap usage so cap can be utilized elsewhere
2) Variable damage types
3) Higher damage mods
What good are the benefits if you're half dead and can't hit the broad side of a planet at the weapon's optimal range. And how the hell did Hippey think this crap was balanced?
Edited by: Jash Illian on 16/07/2003 20:57:52
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Morkt Drakt
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Posted - 2003.07.16 20:39:00 -
[14]
I "Do" use hybrids on some of my ships - really does depend though:
My ECM/ECCM blackbird only has projectiles - i want the cap for running modules not guns - not that I expect the bb to be doing that much fighting... though, ironically, its a good anti-frigate setup also.
My Moa runs rails as i want the race advantage also - and I prefeer long-range fights.. which is odd as the game mechanics act against that (warp-in is always close fighting)
The small - is it the scout dual 250? - little artillery gun is a superb projectile though - just not quite strong enough as a lite anti-cruiser gun and without the range (again) to compete with aa railuser - but, again, if ya get under the rail-user's guns..
but why use a frigate gun on a cruiser? (weird but i found it does as much damage, more frequently an dhas far better tracking)
I digress - I think that some of the projectiles did get "over tweaked" - probably only in the tracking department though... it'd be interesting to see the scout 650 with a 30-50% increase in its track rate.
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Lutetia
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Posted - 2003.07.16 22:44:00 -
[15]
The problem with the med projektile turrets and amo needs a significant correction. Atm there is no usefull medium projektile weapon for a minmatar cruiser, I know about. And please, people donĘt tell me about those legendary 425 mm guns (simply sucking stuff) or the right powerups in the right slots!
The minmatar-cruisers do have their advantage for the medium weapons only (that means small weapons donĘt get the bonus).
Atm the best damage deals the 250 mm scout arty, a s m a l l projectile weapon. But you need to close in, to hit the target. At this point, you need to autorepead recharging the shield and powercore go down very fast. Now add a warp- and/or a weapondisruptor and the power is a zero within a few seconds!
Why should a cruiser come so close to a frigate to hit and destroy it ? This is very strange to me.
If you want to fire with the med guns, you need to slow your ship down to zero. Imho a cruiser should be able to fire and to hit at full speed. I never heared about a cruiser or another shipclass, that stopped to hit its target. Did you?
Further: A cruiser should not be a ōclose combat shipö in the first line. In this way I understand the dev-made advantage of the minmatar-cruiser by raising the med-turret-speed. But atm there is no usefull medium weapon to bring shipspeed, turretspeed and damage per hit in a ratio that would be okay.
Imagine: 625 mm = 62,5 cm. This bullet, fired over a range of 20 km, should do damage! Even if it not explodes, this ugly bullet would not knock at the door, it would knock down the house completely!
At this point it is okay to me, that a frigate could make the way through the fire of a cruiser, to come close and hit the cruiser from short distance. In this situation, a wise cruiser-captain should have at least one close-combat-gun. But atm there ist not ONE frigate making its way through the cruiser-fire (625 mm arty) they ALL make the run at least while the cruiser is moving)! This canĘt be okay.
In fights against more than one Pirate-Cruisers the problem grows a lot!
As I said before (in Hippeys posting): We need a usefull medium projektile weapon, more than 20 bullets to load up and a increase of the range for the shieldbreakers. All in all, we need a fair balance between all kinds of weapons per class and size.
Truly: Hybrids on a Minmatar-cruiser with advantage for medium projectile canĘt be the final solution!
To the devs: This means n o t to nerf down the non-projectile-weapons, please!
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Morkt Drakt
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Posted - 2003.07.16 22:51:00 -
[16]
That little 250 arty small is a beaut of a gun.
The "get in close and batter them" type of cruiser fighting might make more sense if minmatar ships REALLY were significantly faster... otherwise it seems a bit wishy-washy.
Your last line was a classic though - too true
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GoHa
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Posted - 2003.07.16 22:58:00 -
[17]
B4 patch:
2x Dual 425 Scout (Proj M)
2x Dual 150 Scout (Proj S)
After patch:
2x Dual 425 Scout (Proj M)
2x Dual 150 Scout (Proj S)
I had no problems b4 patch, and after patch I have no problems at all. 3 Predators, or Maradeur + 3 depredators or Liquidator + 2 Maradeurs + something 10k per... Just little bit more headache with guns reloading...
I can just stay and kill infinite spawn, like you told...Even more: I can just clear the belt, before they will respawn. 3-5 cruisers is not a problem. Doing it solo everty time, when I am getting tired to play on EVE market.
I don't understand WHERE IS THE PROBLEM? What is all this cry about?
Edited by: GoHa on 16/07/2003 23:00:40
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Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.07.16 23:20:00 -
[18]
<< I had no problems b4 patch, and after patch I have no problems at all. 3 Predators, or Maradeur + 3 depredators or Liquidator + 2 Maradeurs + something 10k per... Just little bit more headache with guns reloading...
I can just stay and kill infinite spawn, like you told...Even more: I can just clear the belt, before they will respawn. 3-5 cruisers is not a problem. Doing it solo everty time, when I am getting tired to play on EVE market.
I don't understand WHERE IS THE PROBLEM? What is all this cry about? >>
The fact that with that setup you'll be a corpsicle against anything but NPC pirates. A hybrid user will eat you alive before your guns begin to do damage. And if the hybrid user, feeling kind, let you get into optimal range with those guns he'd still eat you alive
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Morkt Drakt
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Posted - 2003.07.16 23:33:00 -
[19]
no he wouldn't - well he wouldn't if you were in a fast cruiser.
Rails really cant track well in close - those guns can, youre prolem, as with the frig, is getting there.
Ironically - as combat at a warp-in point is immediately "close" combat - theres an addvantage there - or would be if minmatar ships "were" fast.
(There's a pattern here - can you see it yet? )
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Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.07.17 00:42:00 -
[20]
<< no he wouldn't - well he wouldn't if you were in a fast cruiser.
Rails really cant track well in close - those guns can, youre prolem, as with the frig, is getting there.
Ironically - as combat at a warp-in point is immediately "close" combat - theres an addvantage there - or would be if minmatar ships "were" fast. >>
With those weapons? Er... not in my experience. My arties have an easier time hitting and do better damage at 6km or so. And 250mm rails track faster. I'll stand by what I said before: he'll get eaten for breakfast. Especially with that setup.
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Morkt Drakt
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Posted - 2003.07.17 00:57:00 -
[21]
Yeah you might be right - i'd read him as using 425 Scouts (0.0375 track) - he means the old dual 425 which is no the 650 scout (Which is a pig tracking)
Though if he DID use 425 scouts up close - lol - different story.
(Mind you the 220 scout autocannon isnt far off the 425 either)
Still need the speed/agility to orbit close in though.
Edited by: Morkt Drak on 17/07/2003 00:59:27
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Lord Zap
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Posted - 2003.07.17 01:16:00 -
[22]
Hey if you think the tracking speed on the medium projectiles is bad take a look at the stats on the large artillery. Off the top of my head the speed for the 1200mm is approx 0.001 making it impossible to hit practically anything save a stationary object. On a side note these large artillery were the weapon of choice for most of m0o before the patch but we've since been forced to shift to different weapons. Now I'm not suggesting that the patch was 'entirely' anti- m0o since many people chose these large artillery because quite simply they were the best large weapon by far. It is kinda odd though how after every patch I find myself switching weapons and modules because my fitted ones have generally taken a good beating from the pink bat.
Pre-patch my criticals were in the range of 1800 on the 1200mm artillery and this was coupled with excellent tracking, decent rof and no cap use. They were clearly over- powered. The problem we have now is that the patch has completely rendered them useless, the base tracking speed is so low as to not gain any significant benefit from tracking skills and/or modules. Its a shame for anyone with a tempest wishing to take advantage of the large projectile bonus. I just hope that large artillery are looked at soon otherwise its going to be lasers and hybrids all round..
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Fang
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Posted - 2003.07.17 01:24:00 -
[23]
I have tested the 650 Standard Artillery pieces against the 250mm hybrids extensively using the Maller, Omen And Rupture Cruisers.
I have used multiple dam mods for both types and tested at various ranges up to 35k.
The 250mm Hybrid wins time and time again with much more consistent damage much more regularly ...and by regular i mean it hits 10x times more often the the artillery pieces.
In my opinion the standard 650mm Artillery piece is a complete waste of time. The Scouts may be better but the standard piece is a very poor performer.
Fang
Sirius Corp
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Nerhtal Al'Thali
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Posted - 2003.07.17 01:24:00 -
[24]
the only thing about artillery's which bugs me is - their supposed to be innacurate but very long ranged weapons....their tracking should stay low, i just want to see a range fix...make them long ranged as their supposed to be..
the howitzer type weapons....silly RoF and range is still not adequate to balance that fact... a howitzer i want hitting consistently (at its slow rof) at EXTREME ranges....were talking 60km's with the fallof just around there maybe? huge dmg potential at a slow rof..
or something like that - they can discuss the statistics
"Game Experience And Dev Opinions May Change With The Time Of Day During Online Play"
Oveur
"First in, last out"
Bridgeburner Motto |
Deb Dukar
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Posted - 2003.07.17 06:59:00 -
[25]
as far as i figured out, the whole scout family isnt realy affected by the nerf. sure it doesnt hits as much as before, but it still hits more often.
makes me think that they accidently broke all other non market stuff.
@ least nice to see that im not the only one who sees the problem here.
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got a problem with my typos? then go to ur mom and start crying :P |
Dominique Doolittle
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Posted - 2003.07.17 07:16:00 -
[26]
Projectiles were basically over-nerfed. Any half-honest person who has used all three weapon types can tell you that projectile is by far the worst weapon type right now.
Disadvantages:
Hit rate is terrible beyond around 10km.
10-second reloads are necessary in all serious fights.
Worst Tracking.
Worst RoF.
Worst ships carry its weapon bonus.
Advantages:
Low cap use.
Low power use.
It basically comes down to whether using low cap and low power is worth averaging only 35% the damage of energy or hybrid weapons at the "business" range of around 10~35km. In almost all cases the answer is "no."
Heck I find it hard to justify mounting those 650mm scout suckers on a Blackbird. Can you still kill NPC ships with it? Sure, as long as you don't mind doing so at below half speed had you mounted some decent weapons instead.
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Dominique Doolittle
Caldari Homemaker, Industrial Spy, System Hacker
Security Rating: 9.99999999963e-005 |
Ghenghiz
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Posted - 2003.07.17 07:27:00 -
[27]
I have 4x 650mm medium 'scouts' fitted, 2 launchers with defenders (heavy & cruiser still suck to my opinion, most are shot down, and take way to long to get there)
2 Lif afterburners, 1x Neutron Shield booster
4 x (advanced) Gyrostabilizers 1
I do 100 damage at 15-20 km, often 120 damage, wrecking damage of 360.
this is all after the latest patch.
I can take on 1 maurader and 3 predators (40k & 30k) at once, with constant respawn.
Projectiles are still good.
Ghenghiz
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Deb Dukar
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Posted - 2003.07.17 08:00:00 -
[28]
@Ghenghiz
read the posts,
scouts work like before :P
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got a problem with my typos? then go to ur mom and start crying :P |
THE SINISTAR
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Posted - 2003.07.17 08:04:00 -
[29]
I wish I would of read this post before I wasted my money on the 650's today. Had 3 mounted on a maller. The misses were so bad that I had to finish off the pirates with the 2 150 hybrids.
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Lord Zap
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Posted - 2003.07.17 08:13:00 -
[30]
Scouts have been nerfed too
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Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.07.17 08:20:00 -
[31]
<< I have 4x 650mm medium 'scouts' fitted, 2 launchers with defenders (heavy & cruiser still suck to my opinion, most are shot down, and take way to long to get there)
2 Lif afterburners, 1x Neutron Shield booster
4 x (advanced) Gyrostabilizers 1
I do 100 damage at 15-20 km, often 120 damage, wrecking damage of 360.
this is all after the latest patch.
I can take on 1 maurader and 3 predators (40k & 30k) at once, with constant respawn.
Projectiles are still good.
Ghenghiz >>
I have 2 650mm Medium Carbine Howitzers loaded along with a plain 250mm Railgun. 1 FM-Z Weapon Inertial Suspensor (1.06x dam + 6% RoF) and 1 Cross Lateral Gyrostabilizer (1.077x dam + 8.8% RoF). Surgical Strike lvl 3, Sharpshooter lvl 3, Med Projectile lvl 3 and Med Hybrid lvl 2
The 650mm are doing 100s around 9km, with wreckings floating anywhere between 130 and 260.
While the 650mm are doing 100s, the 250mm had been doing 50s 7km back, with wreckings around 100. Firing almost twice as often. With Hybrid Weapon 2 and nothing to assist damage.
Is there a problem here?
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Deb Dukar
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Posted - 2003.07.17 08:23:00 -
[32]
@lord zap
jep but my old scouts lad far more hits then the standard artys. with em i was able to solo a bunch of cruisers, without em i can barely kill 1.
PS: maybe u wanna gimme my scouts back? u podded me a few days ago :P ;)
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got a problem with my typos? then go to ur mom and start crying :P |
Tyr Bowman
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Posted - 2003.07.17 08:45:00 -
[33]
I apologise if this has already been said, cos i dident read all the posts, but i think that the heavy artillery will come into play more during corp wars vs. big slow moving/non moving targets such as stations and titans.
650mm... think how enourmous those shells are, and then think about how truely massive the cannons you need to fire them are going to be. You cant really expect that amount of metal to swivel and pitch fast enough to accurately track a frigate can you???
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Endyl
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Posted - 2003.07.17 09:03:00 -
[34]
I think maybe some bonusses should be added to Minmatar ships to make the projectiles more effective (close to hybrid) when installed on them, but ONLY ON MINMATAR SHIPS ! because those ships pay in other areas for it.
But for all others races, projectiles weapons should mainly be only used on electronic warfare or plain defensive config.
IMHO actualy projectile weapons are ballanced, it's only Minmatar ships that may need some more love.
Edited by: Endyl on 17/07/2003 09:04:25
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Deb Dukar
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Posted - 2003.07.17 09:05:00 -
[35]
thats why the opt range is sso low. but wheres the connection between a turret speed and the bullet size?
a 250mm hybrid is as big as a 650mm (more technical stuff) and faster too
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got a problem with my typos? then go to ur mom and start crying :P |
Arondos
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Posted - 2003.07.17 09:06:00 -
[36]
OK so if it can't track and swivel to track a frigate then give it some decent range.
650mm scout artillery with zero range mod ammo, L4 sharpshooter, L3 traj analysis has a 10.8k optimal range? 28k falloff but if you get beyond about 20k range you may as well just eject ammo. The drop off once you are passed nominal is to extreme. Either the optimal range needs to be raised or the damage and misses need to drop less drastically one you are passed nominal.
I took a Small laser (medium anode particle stream I) with no crystal in it 9660m optimal range, put a radio frq cystal on it and it has more optimal range than the artillery, fires faster and does about half the damage. This with L2 small energy turret skill...vs L4 medium proj turret. I hate to imagine a medium turret with L4 skill.
Edited by: Arondos on 17/07/2003 09:07:18
Life isn't fair and neither is Eve. Get over it. |
Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.07.17 09:12:00 -
[37]
For those people talking about tracking a frigate:
Who said I was referring to a frigate? Those results are against Angel Depredators and Marauders. Cruisers. Coming at me in a straight line. And me not moving. :P
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Tyr Bowman
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Posted - 2003.07.17 09:15:00 -
[38]
Each weapon has its own downfall. If you dont like the downfalls of the artillery, then simply dont use them. Find somthing else like beam cannons or rail guns.
I'm pretty confident that the large artillery cannons will find their usage during corp wars over stations, much like torpedos. In the meantime use somthing else.
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Tyr Bowman
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Posted - 2003.07.17 09:21:00 -
[39]
I agree that the artillery should have a longer range though, especially the howitzers seeing as the shells are supposedly rocket assisted.
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Deb Dukar
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Posted - 2003.07.17 09:22:00 -
[40]
ok tyr, so u mean if they nerf hybrid next patch, every1 shoudl use lasers then?
Edited by: Deb Dukar on 17/07/2003 09:27:08
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got a problem with my typos? then go to ur mom and start crying :P |
Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.07.17 09:26:00 -
[41]
<< Each weapon has its own downfall. If you dont like the downfalls of the artillery, then simply dont use them. Find somthing else like beam cannons or rail guns.
I'm pretty confident that the large artillery cannons will find their usage during corp wars over stations, much like torpedos. In the meantime use somthing else. >>
Tyr, do you use projectiles at all? I doubt it very seriously because you'd know that the results with something like the 720mm are worse. With skills and mods I can bring the RoF down to 18s from 30s. But it barely taps targets anywhere beyod the 25km point.
With that RoF and abysmal damage, the 250mm Railgun user has already hit you 3 times at least for equal or better damage. Nevermind at that range, orbitting will throw the aim of the 720 off so badly you're not going to hit anything. The really long range projectiles, like the 280mm for frigates and 720mm for cruisers, have ALWAYS sucked eggs since beta and were considered more joke than weapon.
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Tyr Bowman
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Posted - 2003.07.17 09:33:00 -
[42]
Depends on if you think you could live with the nerf. If you cant adapt to changes in the game system, then your probably playing the wrong type of game...
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Tyr Bowman
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Posted - 2003.07.17 09:36:00 -
[43]
Jash: no i dont use projectiles.. I use a combination of hybrids and lasers, at least for now. :P
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Deb Dukar
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Posted - 2003.07.17 09:57:00 -
[44]
do u realy thin that ignoring a problem will help u or us?
if they "balance" hybrids and double cap costs of lasers, what r u going to use then?
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got a problem with my typos? then go to ur mom and start crying :P |
Tyr Bowman
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Posted - 2003.07.17 10:07:00 -
[45]
I never said we should ignore the problem, just learn to live with it while CCP finds a way to balence the weapons out. There have been other threads stating how screwed up artillery is at the moment, plus i'm pretty sure people have been petitioning like mad about the problem, and i'm sure CCP are working on it. Whinging at them about a problem they are already aware of isent going to make them fix it any faster.
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Lutetia
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Posted - 2003.07.17 10:18:00 -
[46]
ōDepends on if you think you could live with the nerf. If you cant adapt to changes in the game system, then your probably playing the wrong type of game.ö
Honestly, Tyr. I bet, most of use are onlineplayer since several years. IĘve played online since 1997, and I still have toons in Everquest. Who canĘt remember the debates about class-specific nerfs i.e. for Druids or Necros? You can read such comments all over the boards to every single onlinegame. But this will not help. Neither the developers nor the customers.
I for myself try only (in my bad english) to say, what my experiences are. Its human nature to speak more about bad experience than about good one.
It is simple to say: If projectile donĘt statisfy, use other stuff! The Minmatar-ships should use projectiles as it was planned by the devs from the beginning. So we simply try to tell the devs, there is no balance with a Rupture, Stabber or else.
It is to simple too, if one says those big guns become propper in a corpwar. The pilots of those minmatar-ships wonĘt park them in the hangars and go for Thorax, Blackbird or else until a corpwar comes up. They want fun with their original ships and the setup this ships should have.
Therefore we speak about some needed changes in the near future. There is no reason to talk about whiners (no you Tyr, but others in other threats) or people in wrong games, please.
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Tyr Bowman
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Posted - 2003.07.17 10:24:00 -
[47]
posted by Lutetia:
"Honestly, Tyr. I bet, most of use are onlineplayer since several years. I’ve played online since 1997, and I still have toons in Everquest. Who can’t remember the debates about class-specific nerfs i.e. for Druids or Necros? You can read such comments all over the boards to every single onlinegame. But this will not help. Neither the developers nor the customers.
I for myself try only (in my bad english) to say, what my experiences are. Its human nature to speak more about bad experience than about good one.
It is simple to say: If projectile don’t statisfy, use other stuff! The Minmatar-ships should use projectiles as it was planned by the devs from the beginning. So we simply try to tell the devs, there is no balance with a Rupture, Stabber or else.
It is to simple too, if one says those big guns become propper in a corpwar. The pilots of those minmatar-ships won’t park them in the hangars and go for Thorax, Blackbird or else until a corpwar comes up. They want fun with their original ships and the setup this ships should have.
Therefore we speak about some needed changes in the near future. There is no reason to talk about whiners (no you Tyr, but others in other threats) or people in wrong games, please."
----------
I stand most humbly corrected...
I guess i shouldent talk about things that I havent experienced first hand... thanks for putting me in my place.
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Endyl
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Posted - 2003.07.17 10:27:00 -
[48]
>Who canĘt remember the debates about class-
>specific nerfs i.e. for Druids or Necros? You
>can read such comments all over the boards to
>every single onlinegame.
Ooooh yeah I was a very active member of the "Nerf the Treehuggers to oblivion club". :P
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Benedic
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Posted - 2003.07.17 10:53:00 -
[49]
Burn the Earth-Witch Infidels!(<=Ex EQ cleric)
=P
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Deb Dukar
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Posted - 2003.07.17 11:04:00 -
[50]
"fear my lockpick!" <- 1.5 years of fixerlive in AO :)
we whined about 1 year and then we finaly got fixed hehe.
same tactic should work here too *g
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got a problem with my typos? then go to ur mom and start crying :P |
drunkenmaster
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Posted - 2003.07.17 11:12:00 -
[51]
I think the difference is being taken out of context. You have to look at the whole picture, from a number of angles.
I think we are very close to balance, any further changes will be very small, and in some cases nearly unnoticable.
if you give the proj *too* much tracking speed, BANG! they're better than the hybrids. Cue about 1,000 posts about hybrids being nerfed, pink bats being thrown around, and all the other crap that comes with it.
from my experiences, I will generally only take opinions from people who I know have put in the effort. This would be Morkt and Hippey, and most of m0o. (whether you like them or not, you have to admit that they know their loadouts)
The main thing I see in this thread is people using the weapons in the wrong situations. Most of the similarly matched guns will do the same amount of damage if given the optimum conditions (distance/target/ammo)
And noone in this thread has mentioned the ammo types they are using either, and that honestly makes more difference than the gun type in most cases.
Please include this data with your gripes, maybe someone will see a possible problem in your setups.
Just for the record, I use 2x250coils (M) 1x150coil (S) because that's all I can fit*
I load the 250's with thorium M which, with all my skills (all gunnery at at least lvl3, except traj anal**) and bonuses taken into account give me a range of about 25km, but do very little damage, normally <70.
PS. I'm aware there are tracking speed issues with a number of guns, mainly projectile ones, but the fixes should be minimal, and should, at most, give fractionally better tracking than hybrids of a similar size.
* Vexor, not enough cap to even run 3 250's.
** hahaha, I said anal.
Edited by: drunkenmaster on 17/07/2003 11:17:11
.
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drunkenmaster
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Posted - 2003.07.17 11:18:00 -
[52]
also, they don't need to 'nerf' anything.
They should just 'buff' a couple of items instead.
Match the highest common denominator, not the lowest.
.
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Temerlyn
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Posted - 2003.07.17 11:21:00 -
[53]
Albiet i didnt read all the posts, but i have gone for a close assult set up with 4 ac's.
This requires quite alot less power core to mount, i can use emp ammo and when i am real close they always hit. Every hit doing 20-30 damage per second. I hit fast i hit hard and i dont use any cap doing it.
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Saladin
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Posted - 2003.07.17 11:22:00 -
[54]
I think my single biggest problem with the projectile nerf is the ammo capacity. I found myself having to reload too frequently for it to be practical for me. Now keep in mind I didn't have or use any of those scouts that carried a zillion rounds before the patch, but I thought the pre-patch capacity of 40 rounds was nice for the 650 arty. 20 rounds I think is too low.
Well I wouldn't say to that starting to use hybrids would make your minmatar ships useless. You just have to adjust your skill set (get those energy related skills that weren't needed before) and tweak the setup a bit. Granted you are not getting as much out of the hybrids as you would in a gallente cruiser (+5% hybrid damage per level) or a caldari cruiser (+5% hybrid range per level) but its still good enough for npc's. But I do know that a lot of people stayed with projectiles, and those that did can kill pirates much faster than those with hybrids. I think the main problem is that a lot of people are still sticking to the EMP ammo exclusively. They need to mix things up a bit, check the ammo types out there and check their range penalties. See what suits you best, but it will likely be a mix as opposed to one single type.
I did read somewhere (i think it was the patch review board) that minmatar ships will be getting a boost sometime in the future. I believe the dev said that they realized that minmatar ships were not as fast and as aggresive as they should be and that this will be fixed in the future, but didn't say when. |
Lord Zap
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Posted - 2003.07.17 11:31:00 -
[55]
"IMHO actualy projectile weapons are ballanced, it's only Minmatar ships that may need some more love."
- I defy anyone who has actually had the experience of firing large projectile artillery such as the 800mm and 1200mm to say they are balanced. Even when at optimal range with stationary or very slow moving cruisers/battleships the amount of hits is worrying. Sure they use no cap but what is the point if you cannot hit anything and they fire every 15 seconds! Please go on the test server and get a tempest with large artilley, take it outside and try killing some pirates, then come back and tell us theyre balanced. zzzZap
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3859
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Posted - 2003.07.17 11:33:00 -
[56]
Ah, this is funny.
Before the patch ppl were shouting about Hybrids being crap, and all the projectile users were saying 'get over it' I own you with my dual 425's
Now Hybrids are better than Projectiles, the 'get over it's' are complaining.
:) lol makes me giggle.
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Endyl
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Posted - 2003.07.17 11:34:00 -
[57]
Lord Zap,
I was talking about cruiser size weapons, I got (unfortunately) no experience at all with battleships sized weapons.
Edited by: Endyl on 17/07/2003 11:35:44
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Morkt Drakt
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Posted - 2003.07.17 11:54:00 -
[58]
Zap I dont think any of the large weapons are balanced that well ya know... then agian its hard to balance things like a 425 railgun when its not even really in the game (lets hope fight club on chaos gets going again).
As for the medium cruiser weapons - some of the projectiles need a tracking rate change - probably no more than 30% increase - they hit fine for damage and range and RoF - just the %too-hit is a bit too low (imo)
I reiterate that the whole "issue" about a one-on-one comparison between a railgun/laser and a projectile is invalid. You have to view these things in context, thats why railguns have a higher grid, you cant fit as many for the same grid as you can projectiles and once done projectiles cost no cap to fire - that is a BIGGY.
There remain problems with individual guns in every class - over time these will be looked at and tested and tweaked - from this entrie thread I think the "obvious" target is a look at the track rate on the 650 range.
Large, unfortunately, really needs looking at from scratch for everything.
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Deb Dukar
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Posted - 2003.07.17 12:52:00 -
[59]
i mentioned ammo types in first post :P
i realy loved my original setup.
aproach mobs while shooting all my 650mm scouts to nuke away shields.
then @ 10k turning 425mm on with fusion m ammo to nuke the armor.
worked great if u ahve a few havoc missiles as support.
same tactic doesnt work now (normal artys) and i have no clue why. i personaly think that just the artys and howies need some more work. amybe same tracking speed like the 250 hybrids have. its preety much the same type of weapon (long range) just uses another technic.
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got a problem with my typos? then go to ur mom and start crying :P |
Endyl
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Posted - 2003.07.17 12:55:00 -
[60]
250mm hybrid have 0.009 native tracking speed, or something around it.
EDIT: Just checked on TTI-Nexus, it's 0.0075 rad/sec
Edited by: Endyl on 17/07/2003 12:58:26
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Deb Dukar
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Posted - 2003.07.17 12:57:00 -
[61]
arty has 0.005
with 1x tracking enhancer I and crusier skill (rupture), motion prediction lvl 3 and gunnery lvl 5 i get it to ~0.0065
with the same equipment i can get my 250mm hybrid to ~0.01415
Edited by: Deb Dukar on 17/07/2003 13:01:19
Edited by: Deb Dukar on 17/07/2003 13:01:55
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got a problem with my typos? then go to ur mom and start crying :P |
drunkenmaster
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Posted - 2003.07.17 13:38:00 -
[62]
they could try putting the 650 arty tracking range up to 0.00625. Then, with enough mods, it will be the equal of the stock hybrid.
Might be worth trying.
Of course, all this is m00t until TomB returns, but I have faith in him, as he has done well (with assistance) to get the weapon balance to where it is now. The only changes left will be minor, and almost unnoticable.
Sorry, Zap, like the other dude, I have no experience with large weapons, and don't expect to in the near future, but if they are unbalanced, then I'm sure they will be looked at.
.
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The Wretch
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Posted - 2003.07.17 14:10:00 -
[63]
No cap.
There you go.
The Wretch
Cyberdyne Systems CEO
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Pyroe
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Posted - 2003.07.17 14:13:00 -
[64]
Ah, this is funny.
Quote:
Before the patch ppl were shouting about Hybrids being crap, and all the projectile users were saying 'get over it' I own you with my dual 425's
Now Hybrids are better than Projectiles, the 'get over it's' are complaining.
:) lol makes me giggle."
Keep giggling because before the patch that improved the projectiles everyone jumped on Hybrids. Now they all jump again.
With every, "balance/nerf", the swing of the pendulam seems far to extreme. Maybe with each succesive swing the range will get smaller as the momentum peters out. CCP has not seemed to get into the tweaking of things (meaning small adjustments) instead they go from one extreme to the complete opposite.
Seems to be best to have all weapon types trained or just go mine.
And with that it seems you need to train up all races of ships as well because when the nerf bat swings the same happens with ships and their skills.
12 hours from a Thorax I am. Screw the min ships. Better fighter, better miner, better period. Next up Amarr.
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Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.07.17 14:33:00 -
[65]
Ammo info? Photon M, coulda sworn I mentioned it.
As far as situational goes, I thought I was speaking situationally. Depending on warping to a stargate so I end up betweek 5km - 10km to my target so my 650mm Medium Carbine Howitzers can get about 2 cycles of firing before they become useless is a bit too situational for me, Morkt.
I wouldn't mind the artillery being a 'short->mid-range slugging' weapon but then they do need a damage boost to make up for the damage you'll take getting to slugging distance.
I wouldn't mind the artillery being a 'long range jabbing' weapon. But again they'd need a damage boost. At range they're not terribly accurate but they should hit for more power.
Problem with both is the combat mechanics would immediately unbalance itself again. The combat model doesn't differentiate well between the outer edges of range, aka min/max. Which is why I started a thread last week about defining a buffer range around optimal. So weapons would have min/optimal/max ranges and defined roles (close combat, mid range slugging, long range artillery).
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Gwyneth Museveni
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Posted - 2003.07.17 15:40:00 -
[66]
Yes, you still can do as much damage per hit as energy or hybrid weapons, but projectile weapons have much lower RoF, plus they have much shorter optimum range which means they land hits half as often as energy and hybrid weapons outside of 6~12km, and much worse tracking which means they land hits half as often as energy and hybrid weapons inside of 6~12km. That basically makes projectiles average about 1/3 the damage of energy or hybrid weapons. Projectile weapons also have the worst ammo restrition.
Normally, I wouldn't care what the unwashed Minmatar mensh would use. However, the imbalance is so ridiculous I can just feel a big way-overboard hybrid "rebalancing" on its way. Now if CCP's only going to nerf energy weapons down to projectile level I can live with that. Energy weapons don't use ammo and should be significantly worse than hybrid weapons, but right now that's not the case. =)
-----------------------
Gwyneth Museveni
Rogue Mercenary Cyberneticist |
Morkt Drakt
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Posted - 2003.07.17 17:07:00 -
[67]
Gwyneth - nice oration - totally overboard but nice.
The imbalance is a matter of upping track rate on SOME (note: some) Projectiles - that's it.
Theatrics not required.
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Pyroe
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Posted - 2003.07.17 17:17:00 -
[68]
""Yes, you still can do as much damage per hit as energy or hybrid weapons, but projectile weapons have much lower RoF, plus they have much shorter optimum range which means they land hits half as often as energy and hybrid weapons outside of 6~12km, and much worse tracking which means they land hits half as often as energy and hybrid weapons inside of 6~12km. That basically makes projectiles average about 1/3 the damage of energy or hybrid weapons. Projectile weapons also have the worst ammo restrition.""
No theatrics there. Maybe in the second half?
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zincol
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Posted - 2003.07.17 17:53:00 -
[69]
where do i get 425mm hybrids from as projecs suck so badly lol
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Morkt Drakt
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Posted - 2003.07.17 17:56:00 -
[70]
425 hybrid rails arent in game atm. The BP got pulled from the market - not sure if anybody bought one in time and is making them.
Possibly one might spawn in a container - but atm thats it.
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zincol
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Posted - 2003.07.17 18:13:00 -
[71]
oh well i see them on merket but none for sale type thing,what sorta containers u find them in? also what about multi freq Large? cant find them,why do projects suck so much?
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Darlan Flame
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Posted - 2003.07.17 18:17:00 -
[72]
Nobody wants to nerf anything. Nobody, NOBODY, wants the endless nerf circle that goes round and round on every last thing until finally, everybody sucks. No, we want everybody to be good. We want equal footing on high damage ground. We're calling for the making of projectiles better, not calling to make hybrids worse.
As for my two cents, I remember I had gotten ahold of a stabber prepatch and some 650s, regular, and oh man, I was loving them. THUMP THUMP THUMP BOOM. Real nice guns. Now, it's post patch, and I finally got my own cruiser, a rupture. And to be honest, I find that the 650s arn't as sweet as they used to be. "What is going on here?" I say. "Why can't my freaking arties hit anything past 10km? Shouldn't they be hitting well placed shots at LONG ranges?" Foolish me, how dare I assert that artillery cannons can hit things at long ranges.
I just want my thumpers back.
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Svenja Anneka
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Posted - 2003.07.17 18:32:00 -
[73]
 Quote:
""Yes, you still can do as much damage per hit as energy or hybrid weapons, but projectile weapons have much lower RoF, plus they have much shorter optimum range which means they land hits half as often as energy and hybrid weapons outside of 6~12km, and much worse tracking which means they land hits half as often as energy and hybrid weapons inside of 6~12km. That basically makes projectiles average about 1/3 the damage of energy or hybrid weapons. Projectile weapons also have the worst ammo restrition.""
No theatrics there. Maybe in the second half?
Hehe. The sad part is that the "theatrics" stats reflect the actual figures.
When the nerfs first went live I tested the projs against my favorite Serpentis and the nerfs didn't feel all that bad. The constant reloads were getting very annoying, but I could still kill what I could before, just slower. What I didn't get an immediate feel for was just how much slower.
I timed my damage against hybrids the next day and my jaw hit the floor when I saw the discrepancy. The outside-optimum miss rate and terrible RoF made the relative average damage absolutely ludicrous. Switched to hybrids and never looked back at another proj sucker gun.
We'll see how long my hybrids last this time before CCP overcompensates again. =)
Svenja Anneka
Brutor Huntress |
Fang
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Posted - 2003.07.17 22:47:00 -
[74]
OverallI think the game balanceis pretty good.The Artillery changes from the last patch just seem a overdone is all. I still do excellent damage with the standard 650mm Arty pieces but hit a lot less. Range is also a problem.
Some minor tweaks to improve artillery would be nice but I wouldn't want to see the pendulum swing to far again.
Just to reiterate.... a few small uptweaks to standard artillery would be all thats required.
Fang
Sirius Corp
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MaiLina KaTar
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Posted - 2003.07.18 00:23:00 -
[75]
The only problem I have with the arties and howitzers is their range. The range of those things just don¦t suit the name IMO. They should have quite a bit more range since they fire very slow, don¦t hit as often and (from my experience) become totally useless once the target is closer.
Just a little example to show what I mean. Here¦s the description of the 650mm Howitzer 1:
"A powerful long-range artillery. One of the most damaging weapons mountable on a cruiser. Must be loaded with any of the following projectile ammo types: carbonized lead, depleted uranium, EMP, fusion, nuclear, phased plasma, photon, or titanium sabot."
Now from damage mod to RoF and tracking speed on to capacity the gun is totally fine and works just like the description says. Fires extremely slow, sucks at tracking but packs a nice punch.
Now where it really sucks is the range. 6500m optimal, 25km falloff... maybe i¦m stupid but that¦s NOT long range. Long range would mean something like 20km optimal + 25km falloff or maybe even 35km falloff... that¦s something I¦d consider as long range.
And since the RoF is so extremely slow that wouldn¦t make the gun too strong at all. Combined with the relatively awful tracking speed such a range would make those guns really good long range hitters while they¦d be useless on shorter range. Just like the description says.
I really like those guns but the current range of those things is just wrong IMO.
Mai's Idealog |
nukLhead
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Posted - 2003.07.18 21:55:00 -
[76]
Wait until you get large weapons, talk about nerf!!!!! 800mm projectile have trakcing of 0.0015! as if 15 second rate of fire wasnt bad enough. Why pay 75+ million for a ship when you can't even shoot anything, or even get any decent weapons.
No 425mm railgun prints, no tachyon beam prints. All that is avaiable is dual 250mm (which are worse than a normal 250mm railgun, with 1/4 the tracking speed). Mega beams, pfft.
For such a large investment, it's really pathetic doing less than the damage of a cruiser (when you even hit).
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var'ulfur
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Posted - 2003.07.18 22:51:00 -
[77]
i get almost 100 damg hits with just the base 250mm railgun but you must understand i am caldari and i get a buff with railguns. skills are importante also in railgun use. i am not in a part of space that drops the scout weapons so im not sure on them. but i love railguns ever since beta :O)
talk is cheap the cost of action is enormus
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Acix
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Posted - 2003.07.19 00:37:00 -
[78]
I don't even have the scout 650's or the scout425's. I did how ever find a way to nulify a hybrid users ability to fire in a one on one pvp. Cap drainers, not the nosverotu (not spelled right) drainers that give cap to you, the nulifiers. I use a sheiled booster and 2 small caps in my stabbers med slots. This lets me keep a full shield and fire and drain a hybrid weapon or beam weapon user to nothing. If they can't fire and they can't use anything that has a cap use then you have effectively made them null and void. This is for single player verse single player. The two cap drainers start at 12k range and the 650mm and one proto 280mm work reasonalbly well at 10k to 12k. Also I use 3 overdrives for a little speed bonus 333m/s. This is using titanium med ammo and titanium ammo for the 280 as well. This is the only way i have found to be effective against a single other player at the level i am at in 0.0 space.
P.S. don't try this on any NPC's above an angel raider or you will be fried so fast you won't know what hit you.
It sucks but you have to adapt to the dev's changes and the planet sized nerf bat that swings your way from time to time.
SNIGG is now officially open for business. We are a merc corp looking for contracts.
For more info click below
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=68313 |
Morkt Drakt
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Posted - 2003.07.19 02:25:00 -
[79]
Unfortunately the fact that projectile users have access to the use of cap in "other ways", unlike the cap-sensitve hybrid and energy users, seems to often pass people by (completely).
There's no doubt some of the proj guns need some minor tweakings - it is minor though. ENergy weapons and hybrids (small-medium) are well balanced. Some of the projectiles are also - some, particularly Mediums, need a bi of help in the track department and maybe (maybe) a vry small change to opt/falloff.
All larges - forget it - they're all fubar, every type.
So far this is the closest we've gotten to balance. Personally I object to any of the "way out there" posts claiming XYA is "MASSIVELY overpowered or underpowered" - fact is class by class the balance is good when looked at objectively in terms of ovverall "factors".
Anybody can match up a gun to another gun and make it look good or bad, underpowered or overpowered, you can also claim great shots or give us anecdotal evidence of XYZ (ad nauseum).
I'm basing my comments on two things:
BBBB and our partner Corps only deal in Arms - we have every damn gun out there and we always try them to see how good they are. (SO we can price them right + use them for ourselves)
That "sort of" makes us prety neutral - If there's a "flavour of the month" we have it.
What works best for us though is definately an all-round even balanced set of weaps - coz it means we can sell more.
The second end of this is that - irrespective of what we think, what we sell generally tells us what the rest of the players think.
And from that:
Energy and Hybrids are the most popular - with some, quite specifc, projectiles also be as popular. The "big hit" is medium projectile howiess - people are buying them and using them - but you're looking at about 33% less for them.
The medium autocannons - they sell (and work) just fine (so it seems from sales and price).
Probably the best guide to any dev team has to be what the player actually uses, if our sales are indicative of the playerbase - once again, we know what needs lookign at.
"Some medium projectile howitzer-type guns".
Personally i dont think this is a story of radical problems. Drastic "fixing" not required.
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Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.07.19 04:58:00 -
[80]
Morkt, looking at things from a usage perspective as the usage is skewed by race and availibility in the region according to race.
If more people play Minmatar, for example, prices and demand will be lower simply because angels are in minspace and drop projectiles. Why buy when you can get them yourself.
I'm looking at it from a performance perspective. And from a DoT perspective, unless you get a string of lucky hits the RoF and inaccuracy will have you losing out to other weapons. The low slots on my rupture are half targetting mods and half damage mods in an attempt to compensate for the 650's poorer performance. But the funny thing is the targetting mods help the 250mm rail I have loaded for long range just as much so it still performs better :P
Now I don't want any weapon type nerfed. I want the different classes within the types changed so they have real use in their alleged roles. I'm sure you've noticed that using a medium range small weapon for close combat usually performs better than the close combat medium weapons. And the true long range weapons, like the 280mm and 720mm are completely useless because along with being highly inaccurate at long range (hitting with a 720mm is a lesson in frustration unless you're not moving and the target is afk). But also they apparently have their damage modified at range as well as by the time damage from those lucky normal and excellent hits began to pick up, the target was within optimal range of a 250mm which was doing almost equally damaging hits. Except it was firing far more often than the 720mm.
Take a real test. Take a 250mm Railgun, a 650mm Howitzer and a 720mm. Watch how often the 250mm hits, at what range and for what damage. Compare it to the performance of the other 2 weapons. The 250mm will outperform both of them by firing more often and more accurately across a longer range. Add to that a player can offset the cap 'disavantage' significantly with skills like Controlled Bursts and Energy Systems Operations. And improve performance better on the hybrids than projectiles, through skills like Motion Prediction and Sharpshooter, simply because there's more tracking and more optimal range for the bonus to be applied to (5% per level on 20km gives a hell of a better bonus than 5% per level on 7.5km)
Edited by: Jash Illian on 19/07/2003 05:17:04
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
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