Screegs was pretty clear in the thread you linked. He doesn't want anyone interacting with local files at all. I can see his point. Technically opening a file is modifying it, since the file's metadata has to be updated to reflect the last time it was accessed. So that strict stance is just an extremely literal interpretation of the EULA.

It's not policy to ban people for cache-scraping today. Given the above-mentioned literal approach that Screegs takes on these things, I would take those words to mean exactly what they say. The implication is that the story could change tomorrow, or as soon as CCP gets the cache scraping functionality provided by the API, which is what Screegs said he wanted in the thread you linked to.

So yeah, bottom line is that cache scraping is illegal. But you won't get banned for it. Yet.

Screegs was pretty clear in the thread you linked. He doesn't want anyone interacting with local files at all. I can see his point. Technically opening a file is modifying it, since the file's metadata has to be updated to reflect the last time it was accessed. So that strict stance is just an extremely literal interpretation of the EULA.

It's not policy to ban people for cache-scraping today. Given the above-mentioned literal approach that Screegs takes on these things, I would take those words to mean exactly what they say. The implication is that the story could change tomorrow, or as soon as CCP gets the cache scraping functionality provided by the API, which is what Screegs said he wanted in the thread you linked to.

So yeah, bottom line is that cache scraping is illegal. But you won't get banned for it. Yet.

Then CCP Sreegs declares loading cache files to be illegal ( https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2601788#post2601788 )

The 'Date Last Accessed' time stamp is optional on NTFS file systems.

In Windows 7 it is disabled by default.

http://beingpc.com/2011/04/how-to-enable-time-stamp-in-windows-7/

Opening a file is NOT modifying it - if you set noatime on the file system (and I do so to prevent unnecessary SSD writes), the file's inode isn't updated when you access it.

But I don't run a cache scraping program either (though the cache gets SCRAPPED as in deleted before I start the client after every patch).

So I really don't have a dog in this fight.

While I can certainly also see his point, Screegs does not make CCP policy by himself (e.g. the EULA), he simply enforces a section of it via his mighty banhammer.

That further contributes to the gray area

You presume I use EveMon. I use iClone to manage my skill queue. Yes, really.

-Liang

I think it's a grey area now because there are things preventing him from wielding his hammer. His intent is clearly indicated in the thread. That fact that his intent isn't official policy is something he's also clearly not happy about. So you can bet that Screegs is going to give up on this issue and forget about it or quit or something because he just doesn't care, or you can bet that he is going to arrange things so that official policy reflects his opinion that has been clearly expressed.

Which one of those two things do you think is more likely to happen?

More information on this would be cool.

People are quoting Screegs on reddit as if he is saying stuff like "I want to ban everybody for alt tabbing".

But I mean, that's reddit so...

Yes, he made his opinion abundantly clear, he believes that cashe scraping should be illegal, but he is currently in a minority at CCP that believe this to be the case and he doesn't want to accept that.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2601747#post2601747
I've never agreed with it. My stance of "Don't modify the client" hasn't changed since day one. That GMs for some reason have a different interpretation than I do is irrelevant.

He now seems to be on a personal crusade to force this view on others and thus force a change in the rules and bugga the GM's that don't think as he does.
CCP need to sort this out and get everyone involved in this to work from the same page, as it were. This sort of inconsistency between GM has been going on for as long as I have been playing.

I don't disagree with you at all. The OP wanted clarification, and I was trying to help out. I don't think we'll get any more than what we've already gotten.

CCP is divided on the issue. Screegs has an opinion. My guess is that his opinion will win in the long run and you're taking risks by cache scraping. But for an official statement, I doubt we will see one until some consensus is reached within CCP.

Until then, I interpret Screegs as meaning, "Do this at your own risk."

I'm pretty sure that Sreegs will make a formal and official announcement when cache scraping is no longer allowed and the allowed functionality is replicated via API.

-Liang

Tbh, if you download the whole market of a whole region,
then you really really really deserve to get your ass kicked,
but THAT'S just my personal opinion.

What's not my personal opinion, though, is the following:


You do it ... and that's already kind of an unfair advantage ... but okay, you're smart.
Suddenly others become smart too and do it too.
One of these smart people becomes even smarter and makes this available to EVEN MORE PEOPLE.
Now EVEN MORE PEOPLE do it and suddenly ... who would have funk ! ... EVERYBODY DOES IT !


Conclusion: Market goes BOOM !


And i don't mean just The Forge and a few items.
No ! Come on, that's ridiculous !

I'm talking about
Literally
Every single item
In every region
In every system.


BOOM ! The End.

Almost certainly. But then again, I would've thought CCP would announce major changes to skills like orcas and command ships as early as they announced the dessy/BC changes. So who knows what they will announce.


But I digress . . . .

Does it really matter what Screegs opinion is?

CCP needs clear definition on these issues and not let wild GMs and guys who call them self "Screeg" making bannable decisions on their whim at the time.

Yes, it does. Because he is the final arbiter of whether the application that you wrote to make your market trades inhumanly fast is a bot. :)

-Liang

I believe my point was, that it shouldn't.

So what if I copy the data into a different directory then scrape it?
Or even better what if I play EVE once on a hdd then switch to another EVE client and use that on a separate hdd, reformatting and reinstalling EVE between each switch?
Or worse setup a raid backup then use the data written to the backup and thus never touch the game cache that is used in the first place?

I agree Liang.

There have been previous petitions to GMs about cache scraping, and they have come back saying it is legal, so long as it doesn't modify the files, which it doesn't.

This can be found in the forums if you search a bit.

Using the In Game Browsers in-built functions is surely legal, otherwise why not just remove them..

And it really is so simple to put the two together to make some very powerful tools by opening the market pane through the In Game browser, then scraping the prices from the cache.

People are using this method everywhere to update spreadsheets, buy/sell orders, etc

I find it hard to believe that CCP are now calling this 'botting'.

Or at least CCP Screegs, who is the final arbiter, is calling it botting.

Then CCP Sreegs declares loading cache files to be illegal ( https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2601788#post2601788 )

The player base really needs some clarity on what allowed and what is not.

Couldn't they just encrypt the cache if they didn't want you to use it? They did that with BACON I think.

People are using this method everywhere to update spreadsheets, buy/sell orders, etc

Re. cache scraping:

1. Explicit permission is explicit

2008 forum post is from 2008.


Heck, that was back in the BoB days. Now goons are running everything...
(sorry I had to...)

Okay, so if you're on linux and you set turn off a specific setting for a specific file or if you're on win7 and have never needed to know when a file was created, accessed, or modified then it's possible to open a file without altering the metadata.

Fair enough. But I call those edge cases. Not something so common that you can interpret the terms of an EULA assuming those circumstances.

You can open files on any POSIX and even MS DOS compatible file system upwards without altering anything including metadata, with a simple C call...

Once CCP declares the cache off limits, this behavior will get you banned. Use the API like you're supposed to.

-Liang

2008 forum post is from 2008.


Heck, that was back in the BoB days. Now goons are running everything...
(sorry I had to...)

I'm going to go with "so what if metadata is modified?", as there is no way to identify WHAT accessed it.

But it would be absolutely ridiculous to expect us to ask CCP if previously-explicitly-permitted-activity-X is still permitted everytime an issue comes up related to it.

If they had changed their mind, the least I would expect is a blog/news item stating the change in policy, especially on something so crucial for many 3rd party developers.

Let's assume for a moment that CCP declares cache scraping forbidden and encrypt the cache data files.

I estimate it'll take 2 weeks tops before someone they will never find, will have those files opened like cheap pomatoes cans and posted the whole universe about how to do it.

Would you turds quit hacking the market and compete like everyone else has to?? Update your orders by hand ffs

We are.
This is the equivalent of Google search for a term paper as opposed to library with a card catalog.

Also does anything happen if we give you items entity?

Re. cache scraping:

1. Explicit permission is explicit

2. Back then I sent my cache decoder library Reverence (shameless plug) for review and release approval to CCP. They approved it, or it wouldn't have been released. Heck, the whole project is quite cheeky about it ;)

3. Sreegs merely stated his opinion. I don't think he should have stated this opinion because of the whole leaving-the-third-party-developer-community-in-uncertainty factor, but it is merely an opinion regardless. A moot opinion at this point in time.

In case they want to "stop" (uhuh) people from reading the cache, CCP's options are extremely limited. I could go in depth as to why it is impossible to prevent access to the cache files, but anyone with an interest in this activity knows why so I won't bother.

Another point is, that an outlawing of cache decoding would do nothing to stop people abusing it, but would severely cripple 3rd party developers that play by the rules.

So, in short, I don't think there's anything to worry about.
If CCP backpedals on points #2 and #1 above, they're 5 years too late. The technology is already out there seeing widespread use, and permission was already granted (sure, could be revoked, but again, what is the point?).

The API can't even vaguely support the amount of constant throughput it's needed to do that job.
They need to implement a real time mail slot protocol and considering how long they take to implement the hugely simpler REST, you'd see something coming out by 2030.

So the consensus seems to be that cache scraping is legal at the moment but CCP Screens would like to ban it.

What about using the in game browser functions to populate the cache?

Not much comment on that yet.

Then CCP Sreegs declares loading cache files to be illegal.

Honestly, this all strikes me as a bunch of people wanting to find out exactly where the line is for their bots.

Exactly. And i hope there's someone at CCP taking notes here.

the cache contains the same information as clicking the 'export' button

This is actually a useful feature of EVE-Central, where it'll feed the IGB a list of items that haven't been checked for a while in the region you're in (in turn activating the corresponding market pane), while the application eve-central provides, Contribtastic, fetches those prices from the cache. You can turn this process on, and minimize the client while you go do something else. This has been perfectly possible since the first new version of the IGB.

But guess what?
- setting the market pane can only be done every second or so
- the cache contains the same information as clicking the 'export' button

I wouldn't be very inclined to provide my fellow players with more recent prices on accord of me getting a serious case of repetitive strain injury. Also, in light of the recent enabler discussion, I don't think banning the use of the cache would benefit anyone. Like Entity wrote, banning the use doesn't actually hinder anyone not playing by the rules.

This is actually a useful feature of EVE-Central, where it'll feed the IGB a list of items that haven't been checked for a while in the region you're in (in turn activating the corresponding market pane), while the application eve-central provides, Contribtastic, fetches those prices from the cache. You can turn this process on, and minimize the client while you go do something else. This has been perfectly possible since the first new version of the IGB.

But guess what?
- setting the market pane can only be done every second or so
- the cache contains the same information as clicking the 'export' button

I wouldn't be very inclined to provide my fellow players with more recent prices on accord of me getting a serious case of repetitive strain injury. Also, in light of the recent enabler discussion, I don't think banning the use of the cache would benefit anyone. Like Entity wrote, banning the use doesn't actually hinder anyone not playing by the rules.

If you have questions about what is and isn't allowed, you should file a petition.

Sure it's an old post.
But it would be absolutely ridiculous to expect us to ask CCP if previously-explicitly-permitted-activity-X is still permitted everytime an issue comes up related to it.

If they had changed their mind, the least I would expect is a blog/news item stating the change in policy, especially on something so crucial for many 3rd party developers.

I'd stick to the actual legal agreement you agreed to rather than outdated GM replies. It's a suggestion.

I don't think you are violating any laws or the EULA by giving a third-party files temporary stored on your computer, Eve-Central i good example of how you can use cache data without ever touching the cache files yourself.

You don't need access to the game client you parse the cache files, which means you don't need to agree to the EULA/TOS, so how can it be illegal?

The 'Date Last Accessed' time stamp is optional on NTFS file systems.

In Windows 7 it is disabled by default.

http://beingpc.com/2011/04/how-to-enable-time-stamp-in-windows-7/

Applications like EFT or EVEMON do not access your client cache, indeed they works also if EVE is not installed.

if one is willing to endorse wardec evasion and NPC corps, it's only a small jump to using scripts and bots for automated user input, that's why they need concord to defend their ships and assets for them.

this much we know

CCP Sreegs redefined "illegal" as "anything I don't approve of" long ago and the playerbase went along with it.

Discussions about the semantics of this word are fruitless and won't change how it is used on this forum.

Exactly. And i hope there's someone at CCP taking notes here.

The Eve Marketeer website (back when it was up) allowed you to do precisely this, with no interaction.

It was then trivial to start up a tool like Eve Mentat and load up all the prices via cache scraping, and compare them to your orders.

It was not rocket science, in fact quite the contrary.

And EVERYONE *was* doing it, and thinking it was legal.

But is it?

I smell a Goon market manipulation script on the way.......

So you're saying you might have to actually write intelligent programs to manage your usage of the API? So you're saying you might have to manually update things or manually do some work like the majority of "unenhanced" Eve players?

Cry me a ******* river.

-Liang

So you're saying you might have to manually update things or manually do some work like the majority of "unenhanced" Eve players?

Cry me a ******* river.

Only unenhanced eve players from now on.

Any esternal tool allowing to perform/replace in game actions is not allowed. I'ts clear, blunt and obvious.
Tricky arguing and qibbling is not going to fool anyone.

And, again, stop kidding please. Applications like EFT or EVEMON do not access your client cache, indeed they works also if EVE is not installed. hey only use the API keys. If they used the cache to popualte their internal ships and modules library is their problem, in case. But these tools do not improve/replace or automate in anyway EVE client performances or actions.

More information on this would be cool.

People are quoting Screegs on reddit as if he is saying stuff like "I want to ban everybody for alt tabbing".

But I mean, that's reddit so...

While without a doubt market scrapping was the no. 1 most popular use for cache scrapping, it is very much not the only one.

It might actually be more interesting if the client itself became an API. So you had a local service to talk to and get information from. Which -heavily speculating- would entail rewriting the wrapper that is no doubt already around the current cache files which the client uses to extract data. Basically creating a CCP maintained Reverance, or at least the inner workings of Reverance. They could supply a light weight C library and I'm sure our community is more then able to supply wrappers for various languages to interact with it.

EvEMon makes ample use of the client cache since months and does it by default. Just saying. YOU CHEATER!

EFT takes prices from EvE Central which is wholly populated by CHEATERS uploading prices through EvE Mon and a couple of other applications. Damn cheaters, they are everywhere!

Don't be silly. EVEMON (as EFT) don't neither need to have the eve client installed. Everyone can try and verify this.

Problem is not grabbing a data dump from eve client to upload it on a site or to load it in your own excell. Problem is manipulating the client cache (read and write) to perform in game actions better or faster then other players, and to automate these actions, so you don't even need to be there playing the game.

The difference is obvious and evident.

So, the real question is: why keep feeding confusion and panic if not to hide something?

Just play the game using the client instead of hacking it to get advantage, why is so hard to accept this simple concept?
It's only a game and doing this only make you all look like children.

You are arguing a point that nobody is making. Cache scrapping is a read-only action. You "could" technically write to the cache but it would serve no good purpose.

No. Read the OP and the other posts.

The purpose is to minimize/justify the use of trading bots saying that, in the end, is the same as using common tool like EVEMON or EFT or the same as going to evecentral site.

And also trying to say that is not clear in the EULA and maybe is CCP missunderstanding what we do bla bla, when is perfectly clear.

Please, don't try to tell that getting a data dump from eve client to populate your own excell file is the same as writing a script that every second automatically access the client data to check a specific price.

it's simple IMHO: if in your script there's a LOOP or an IF structure is a bot.

If you have doubts if something is allowed or not, then it's probably not allowed.

Don't be EvE's "Armstrong".

Don't be silly. EVEMON (as EFT) don't neither need to have the eve client installed. Everyone can try and verify this.

But if these things are illegal a spectacular number of players should be banned!

All of the data in Eve Central would be obtained illegally for a start. And just because someone else broke the rules getting the data doesn't suddenly make it fine to use it.

Edit: by illegal I mean breaking the terms of EVE not the actual law

And again this try to misslead and create confusion.

It's written in the EULA (but also in the simple logic):

"You may not use your own or any third-party software, macros or other stored rapid keystrokes or other patterns of play that facilitate acquisition of items, currency, objects, character attributes, rank or status at an accelerated rate when compared with ordinary Game play. You may not rewrite or modify the user interface or otherwise manipulate data in any way to acquire items, currency, objects, character attributes or beneficial actions not actually acquired or achieved in the Game."

The key part is "to acquire items, currency, objects, character attributes or beneficial actions not actually acquired or achieved in the Game". Ar eyou using something that allow you to skip/automate/improve the normal actions performed by the normal client use? Is this giving you an advantage in respect of the other players? Then probably is "illegal".

And no, your friend using tools to manage hundreds of buy/orders per second and ******* the others on station trading is not the same as reading the EVE central web site or using EVEMON.
Not even close.
Not even the same universe.

I'm sure if here the tool was something helping to detect your safe spot and gank your ship then none of you had any doubt.

Notice how there is neither input from CCP? They are preparing something. No more speculation soon.

Let's hope they are. Because I for one am mighty confused.

First the relevant point from the EULA

"You may not use your own or any third-party software, macros or other stored rapid keystrokes or other patterns of play that facilitate acquisition of items, currency, objects, character attributes, rank or status at an accelerated rate when compared with ordinary Game play. You may not rewrite or modify the user interface or otherwise manipulate data in any way to acquire items, currency, objects, character attributes or beneficial actions not actually acquired or achieved in the Game."

Next the things that could possibly be categorised as breaking the above, or not.

1) Use the EVE In-Game Browser's ShowMarketDetails() javascript method to move the market pane to a specific item.

2) Use the EVE In-Game Browser's ShowMarketDetails() javascript method in a loop to cycle through a predefined set of items, (given that there is a built-in delay between each item showing to prevent server overload and abuse).

3) Load prices from the EvE client cache that have previously been viewed in the Market Pane, by using the many available libraries (libevecache, EveCacheParser, EveCache.NET).

It really is very, very easy to string these three together into something that will feed you up to date sell/buy orders of anything. Given your characters current sell/buy orders are available through the EVE API, even the simplest of simpletons could see how this could be 'used' to accelerate the rate that a character acquires ISK.

Now, up until the last week, all of these (apart from putting them together perhaps) were considered perfectly legal.

- Eve Marketeer certainly did 1) and 2).

- There have been numerous posts on these forums, with no CCP comment, about 1) and 2) e.g. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1721979 *specifically* for the purpose of loading up the cached results. No CCP comment.

- EveMon scrapes your cache 1), loads the prices, and sends them to Eve Central.

- Eve Mentat scrapes your cache and lets you compare the prices with your orders.

There are many, many, many player tools that have not been declared illegal that use one or all of these methods.

Then CCP Sreegs declares loading cache files to be illegal ( https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2601788#post2601788 )

The player base really needs some clarity on what allowed and what is not.

You've got "EVE", "Eve", "EvE" all in one post. Pick one for Jovian sake. I suggest the actual name of the game: EVE.

Thank you.

========

And, how about a solid "no".

Thank you.

Yes you are a special and unique snowflake. Obviously I was talking about my fellow mere mortals who are only cool enough to use EveMon.

I apologize for painting you with the same brush.

So much tears.

In case they want to "stop" (uhuh) people from reading the cache, CCP's options are extremely limited. I could go in depth as to why it is impossible to prevent access to the cache files, but anyone with an interest in this activity knows why so I won't bother.

What happens is someone gets banned for something but we don't know what because can't discuss with third party. And then another person and another. Soon everyone is being massacred as even the NPC corp alts in GD fall silent.

Eventually every one of us discovers that CCP Streeg's banhammer is actually Graf Eisen.

1) encrypt the cache on the way to disk

2) declare the encryption used as a copy protection device (the stuff stored in the cache is technically restricted use content from CCP)

3) user decrypts cache to do cache scraping

4) user goes to gaol under DMCA

5) sucks to be you

This would not fully stop cache sculpting, someone would probably find a way to obtain the encryption key. It would put people using the technique in the same box as people using bots, and i looking at user/client behavior it would probably not be hard to spot the people using it.

It's even easier than that. In a path of least resistance, if cache reading became impossible (very unlikely) then people would just install an hook on the network driver and intercept data packets a la Wireshark and then decode those.

The result is the same, by reading the data of the wire you are also violation the EULA.

So many tears. Tears are countable, the word can be pluralised. One tear, two tears, many tears.

So much crying. Crying is not countable, the word doesn't make a singular/plural distinction. There is crying. There is no crying. There is much crying.

I'd be disappointed if it took 2 weeks. 2 days is more realistic.

Either way, encrypting cache is one option. Another option is to just not put stuff in cache they don't want scraped, for the same reason they shouldn't put static data on test servers they don't want people to speculate on.

At any rate, I believe CCP employees should be more careful about the statements they make. Someone like Sreegs who commands a fairly large amount of authority on matters such as these should at least formulate opinions in a way it looks less like a threat of imminent banning.

Just FYI, forum posts are not policy in the same way that EULAs are not specific enough to reliably judge what one can/cant do other than to steer so clear of the activity as to stop using the product.

Note that I'm talking JUST about the act of reading the cache (as was Sreegs), not about any automation or other less than honorable things one might do with the technology, that's an entirely different matter.

Being the devil's advocate, do you use a hex editor to read the cache or a program to do it for you? Something that does it for you, Sir, is automation. And it would seem to me that such a tool accelerates you acquisition of "stuff" faster than someone using a hex editor. Even the hex editor can be categorized as automation and acceleration when compared to someone examining the individual bits of 0's & 1's and so forth until we're comparing use of stone tools to examine the data. I understand what you're saying. I'm only being the devil here.

The result is the same, by reading the data of the wire you are also violation the EULA.

The EULA is pretty clear on that:

You may not reverse engineer, disassemble or decompile, or attempt to reverse engineer or derive source code from, all or any portion of the Software, or from any information accessible through the System (including, without limitation, data packets transmitted to and from the System over the Internet), or anything incorporated therein, or analyze, decipher, "sniff" or derive code (or attempt to do any of the foregoing) from any packet stream transmitted to or from the System, whether encrypted or not, or permit any third party to do any of the same, and you hereby expressly waive any legal rights you may have to do so. If the Software and/or the System contains license management technology, you may not circumvent or disable that technology.

Saying stuff like "You won't be banned for it.... for now" implies he thinks we're all breaking the rules when it has already been demonstrated we're not.

It was CCP that explicitly and publicly gave permission, and it was CCP that authorized my product for release. They made policy at that point, and last I checked that policy is still in effect. If they want to change it, fine, I don't particularly care if they do or don't, but I don't want to be labeled as someone that breaks the rules when I clearly haven't.

Note that I'm talking JUST about the act of reading the cache (as was Sreegs), not about any automation or other less than honorable things one might do with the technology, that's an entirely different matter.

"derive source code" is what that paragraph is about. Unless your telling me cache files are a part of the source code (they are not), that section of the EULA does not apply.

The EULA is pretty clear on that:

You may not reverse engineer, disassemble or decompile, or attempt to reverse engineer or derive source code from, all or any portion of the Software, or from any information accessible through the System (including, without limitation, data packets transmitted to and from the System over the Internet), or anything incorporated therein, or analyze, decipher, "sniff" or derive code (or attempt to do any of the foregoing) from any packet stream transmitted to or from the System, whether encrypted or not, or permit any third party to do any of the same, and you hereby expressly waive any legal rights you may have to do so. If the Software and/or the System contains license management technology, you may not circumvent or disable that technology.

It is not allowed.

It may be hard to see how they can enforce it, but please can we try to stay on topic.

The thread is about the in game legality of one or both of:

1) Using the in-game browser ShowMarketDetails() call to scroll through a set of items in the game
and
2) Reading the resulting EVE cache records using one the many libraries

I want to see how CCP enforces that. Plenty of software (including packet shapers, stateful firewalls etc) that hook into and analyze network packets. Many people don't even know they have that stuff installed.

1) Using the in-game browser ShowMarketDetails() call to scroll through a set of items in the game
and
2) Reading the resulting EVE cache records using one the many libraries

"derive source code" is what that paragraph is about. Unless your telling me cache files are a part of the source code (they are not), that section of the EULA does not apply.

Reading the cache files : Dev confirming it is okay

Using the IGB to build cache files : GM confirming it is okay

If CCP have changed their view on this subject they should make a public statement, until they do so there is no reason to believe it's not allowed.

Please read the thread.

Recent post from CCP Sreegs, head of the 'department that bans people for being bad', who has the power to overrule GMs, stating that he considers cache reading to be illegal.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2601788#post2601788