| Pages: [1] 2 3 4 5 :: one page |
| Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Uppsy Daisy
24th Imperial Crusade
Amarr Empire
127
   |
Posted - 2013.02.13 20:58:00 -
[1] - Quote
First the relevant point from the EULA
"You may not use your own or any third-party software, macros or other stored rapid keystrokes or other patterns of play that facilitate acquisition of items, currency, objects, character attributes, rank or status at an accelerated rate when compared with ordinary Game play. You may not rewrite or modify the user interface or otherwise manipulate data in any way to acquire items, currency, objects, character attributes or beneficial actions not actually acquired or achieved in the Game."
Next the things that could possibly be categorised as breaking the above, or not.
1) Use the EVE In-Game Browser's ShowMarketDetails() javascript method to move the market pane to a specific item.
2) Use the EVE In-Game Browser's ShowMarketDetails() javascript method in a loop to cycle through a predefined set of items, (given that there is a built-in delay between each item showing to prevent server overload and abuse).
3) Load prices from the EvE client cache that have previously been viewed in the Market Pane, by using the many available libraries (libevecache, EveCacheParser, EveCache.NET).
It really is very, very easy to string these three together into something that will feed you up to date sell/buy orders of anything. Given your characters current sell/buy orders are available through the EVE API, even the simplest of simpletons could see how this could be 'used' to accelerate the rate that a character acquires ISK.
Now, up until the last week, all of these (apart from putting them together perhaps) were considered perfectly legal.
- Eve Marketeer certainly did 1) and 2).
- There have been numerous posts on these forums, with no CCP comment, about 1) and 2) e.g. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1721979 *specifically* for the purpose of loading up the cached results. No CCP comment.
- EveMon scrapes your cache 1), loads the prices, and sends them to Eve Central.
- Eve Mentat scrapes your cache and lets you compare the prices with your orders.
There are many, many, many player tools that have not been declared illegal that use one or all of these methods.
Then CCP Sreegs declares loading cache files to be illegal ( https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2601788#post2601788 )
The player base really needs some clarity on what allowed and what is not. |
Doc Fury
Furious Enterprises
1038
|
Posted - 2013.02.13 21:33:00 -
[2] - Quote
I too would like an official CCP response on this.
There are too many gray areas presently and the HUGE potential for more GD forum drama given Sreegs recent comment about cache scraping.
The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the ho's and politicians will look up and shout 'Save us!' and I'll look down, and whisper 'no.' |
Felicity Love
STARKRAFT
247
|
Posted - 2013.02.13 21:38:00 -
[3] - Quote
... should make for some interesting debates/question periods during Fanfest....
Proud Beta Tester for "Bumping Uglies for Dummies" |
Abrazzar
768
|
Posted - 2013.02.13 21:55:00 -
[4] - Quote
Hopping around the grey area is alright, as long as you are not surprised or angry when they decide enough is enough and they reach over and drag you in.
Please visit your user settings to re-enable images. |
Glathull
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
134
|
Posted - 2013.02.13 21:55:00 -
[5] - Quote
Screegs was pretty clear in the thread you linked. He doesn't want anyone interacting with local files at all. I can see his point. Technically opening a file is modifying it, since the file's metadata has to be updated to reflect the last time it was accessed. So that strict stance is just an extremely literal interpretation of the EULA.
It's not policy to ban people for cache-scraping today. Given the above-mentioned literal approach that Screegs takes on these things, I would take those words to mean exactly what they say. The implication is that the story could change tomorrow, or as soon as CCP gets the cache scraping functionality provided by the API, which is what Screegs said he wanted in the thread you linked to.
So yeah, bottom line is that cache scraping is illegal. But you won't get banned for it. Yet.
To repeat, the skill split is scheduled for the big Summer 2013 expansion. ~CCP Fozzie |
Uppsy Daisy
24th Imperial Crusade
Amarr Empire
129
|
Posted - 2013.02.13 21:59:00 -
[6] - Quote
The 'Date Last Accessed' time stamp is optional on NTFS file systems.
In Windows 7 it is disabled by default.
http://beingpc.com/2011/04/how-to-enable-time-stamp-in-windows-7/
|
Palovana
Inner Fire Inc.
318
|
Posted - 2013.02.13 22:02:00 -
[7] - Quote
Glathull wrote:Screegs was pretty clear in the thread you linked. He doesn't want anyone interacting with local files at all. I can see his point. Technically opening a file is modifying it, since the file's metadata has to be updated to reflect the last time it was accessed. So that strict stance is just an extremely literal interpretation of the EULA.
It's not policy to ban people for cache-scraping today. Given the above-mentioned literal approach that Screegs takes on these things, I would take those words to mean exactly what they say. The implication is that the story could change tomorrow, or as soon as CCP gets the cache scraping functionality provided by the API, which is what Screegs said he wanted in the thread you linked to.
So yeah, bottom line is that cache scraping is illegal. But you won't get banned for it. Yet.
Opening a file is NOT modifying it - if you set noatime on the file system (and I do so to prevent unnecessary SSD writes), the file's inode isn't updated when you access it.
But I don't run a cache scraping program either (though the cache gets SCRAPPED as in deleted before I start the client after every patch).
So I really don't have a dog in this fight.
Please support: export of settings in editable format
Your stuff goes here. |
Pewty McPew
Pillage Plunder And Rape Industries
181
|
Posted - 2013.02.13 22:04:00 -
[8] - Quote
I smell a Goon market manipulation script on the way....... |
Whitehound
796
|
Posted - 2013.02.13 22:05:00 -
[9] - Quote
It was an official CCP statement regardless of how hard it is to believe.
YOU BETTER BELIEVE THE MAN!!!
SCAM CAT - Titan Jump - I was there - Goon Dog |
Doc Fury
Furious Enterprises
1038
|
Posted - 2013.02.13 22:08:00 -
[10] - Quote
Glathull wrote:Screegs was pretty clear in the thread you linked. He doesn't want anyone interacting with local files at all. I can see his point. Technically opening a file is modifying it, since the file's metadata has to be updated to reflect the last time it was accessed. So that strict stance is just an extremely literal interpretation of the EULA.
It's not policy to ban people for cache-scraping today. Given the above-mentioned literal approach that Screegs takes on these things, I would take those words to mean exactly what they say. The implication is that the story could change tomorrow, or as soon as CCP gets the cache scraping functionality provided by the API, which is what Screegs said he wanted in the thread you linked to.
So yeah, bottom line is that cache scraping is illegal. But you won't get banned for it. Yet.
While I can certainly also see his point, Screegs does not make CCP policy by himself (e.g. the EULA), he simply enforces a section of it via his mighty banhammer.
That further contributes to the gray area
The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the ho's and politicians will look up and shout 'Save us!' and I'll look down, and whisper 'no.' |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army
Atrocitas
3034
|
Posted - 2013.02.13 22:15:00 -
[11] - Quote
If you have questions about what is and isn't allowed, you should file a petition.
Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?)
Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com
PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos
Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
|
Pap Uhotih
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
1
|
Posted - 2013.02.13 22:20:00 -
[12] - Quote
I read Sreegs offering his own opinion. I dont think it is that confusing that an employee does not need to agree with all the rules, infact the rules should represent a trade off between multiple concerns and will unlikely ever represent any individuals view of perfection.
I think he later went on to say that he would rather information be available through the api which would not be a terrible thing, it seems it is the method that is of concern rather than the information gathered. From Sreegs perspective it would perhaps help him achieve his goals if any interaction with client files was prohibited entirely and I think it good the see him express that, it wouldnt be good if there were CCP employees that diddnt want changes that helped them achieve what they are being paid to do. |
Glathull
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
134
|
Posted - 2013.02.13 22:24:00 -
[13] - Quote
Not everyone uses NTFS. I wouldn't ever not have time stamps on.
Regardless, I'm not trying to agree or disagree with you. I was trying to help you understand Screegs position based on what he said in the thread you linked to. That opening a file is modifying it under some circumstances was an interpolation of mine to help understand his point of view.
Maybe I was wrong. If so, I think the rest of my post still stands. Arguing with me as though I'm a mouthpiece for CCP is kind of silly.
I'm not here to explain Screegs. I was just trying to help you understand what he said.
To repeat, the skill split is scheduled for the big Summer 2013 expansion. ~CCP Fozzie |
Glathull
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
134
|
Posted - 2013.02.13 22:28:00 -
[14] - Quote
Palovana wrote:Glathull wrote:Screegs was pretty clear in the thread you linked. He doesn't want anyone interacting with local files at all. I can see his point. Technically opening a file is modifying it, since the file's metadata has to be updated to reflect the last time it was accessed. So that strict stance is just an extremely literal interpretation of the EULA.
It's not policy to ban people for cache-scraping today. Given the above-mentioned literal approach that Screegs takes on these things, I would take those words to mean exactly what they say. The implication is that the story could change tomorrow, or as soon as CCP gets the cache scraping functionality provided by the API, which is what Screegs said he wanted in the thread you linked to.
So yeah, bottom line is that cache scraping is illegal. But you won't get banned for it. Yet. Opening a file is NOT modifying it - if you set noatime on the file system (and I do so to prevent unnecessary SSD writes), the file's inode isn't updated when you access it. But I don't run a cache scraping program either (though the cache gets SCRAPPED as in deleted before I start the client after every patch). So I really don't have a dog in this fight.
Okay, so if you're on linux and you set turn off a specific setting for a specific file or if you're on win7 and have never needed to know when a file was created, accessed, or modified then it's possible to open a file without altering the metadata.
Fair enough. But I call those edge cases. Not something so common that you can interpret the terms of an EULA assuming those circumstances.
To repeat, the skill split is scheduled for the big Summer 2013 expansion. ~CCP Fozzie |
Glathull
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
134
|
Posted - 2013.02.13 22:33:00 -
[15] - Quote
Doc Fury wrote:Glathull wrote:Screegs was pretty clear in the thread you linked. He doesn't want anyone interacting with local files at all. I can see his point. Technically opening a file is modifying it, since the file's metadata has to be updated to reflect the last time it was accessed. So that strict stance is just an extremely literal interpretation of the EULA.
It's not policy to ban people for cache-scraping today. Given the above-mentioned literal approach that Screegs takes on these things, I would take those words to mean exactly what they say. The implication is that the story could change tomorrow, or as soon as CCP gets the cache scraping functionality provided by the API, which is what Screegs said he wanted in the thread you linked to.
So yeah, bottom line is that cache scraping is illegal. But you won't get banned for it. Yet. While I can certainly also see his point, Screegs does not make CCP policy by himself (e.g. the EULA), he simply enforces a section of it via his mighty banhammer. That further contributes to the gray area
I think it's a grey area now because there are things preventing him from wielding his hammer. His intent is clearly indicated in the thread. That fact that his intent isn't official policy is something he's also clearly not happy about. So you can bet that Screegs is going to give up on this issue and forget about it or quit or something because he just doesn't care, or you can bet that he is going to arrange things so that official policy reflects his opinion that has been clearly expressed.
Which one of those two things do you think is more likely to happen?
To repeat, the skill split is scheduled for the big Summer 2013 expansion. ~CCP Fozzie |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
3554
|
Posted - 2013.02.13 22:38:00 -
[16] - Quote
I'd just file a petition to be sure.
There does seem to be a difference in point of view as to what should or should not be allowed, at least until the API can provide a more manageable route to get to the same end... but I don't believe policy has changed... yet.
Still, petition it to be sure.
To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors.
If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |
Sid Hudgens
Totally not an NPC Corp
134
|
Posted - 2013.02.13 22:43:00 -
[17] - Quote
Is the cache uploader enabled by default in EVEMON? I can't remember. Mine has been on but I've disabled it for now.
If it's on by default ... then you're all banned. 
"....as if 10,058 Goon voices cried out and were suddenly silenced." |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army
Atrocitas
3034
|
Posted - 2013.02.13 22:50:00 -
[18] - Quote
You presume I use EveMon. I use iClone to manage my skill queue. Yes, really.
-Liang
Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?)
Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com
PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos
Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
|
Sid Hudgens
Totally not an NPC Corp
134
|
Posted - 2013.02.13 22:55:00 -
[19] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:You presume I use EveMon. I use iClone to manage my skill queue. Yes, really.
-Liang
Yes you are a special and unique snowflake. Obviously I was talking about my fellow mere mortals who are only cool enough to use EveMon.
I apologize for painting you with the same brush. 
"....as if 10,058 Goon voices cried out and were suddenly silenced." |
Agustice Arterius
Couch Athletics
16
|
Posted - 2013.02.13 23:21:00 -
[20] - Quote
More information on this would be cool.
People are quoting Screegs on reddit as if he is saying stuff like "I want to ban everybody for alt tabbing".
But I mean, that's reddit so...
|
Mackenzie Hawkwood
Event Horizon Expeditionaries
Apocalypse Now.
27
|
Posted - 2013.02.13 23:23:00 -
[21] - Quote
Glathull wrote:Doc Fury wrote:Glathull wrote:Screegs was pretty clear in the thread you linked. He doesn't want anyone interacting with local files at all. I can see his point. Technically opening a file is modifying it, since the file's metadata has to be updated to reflect the last time it was accessed. So that strict stance is just an extremely literal interpretation of the EULA.
It's not policy to ban people for cache-scraping today. Given the above-mentioned literal approach that Screegs takes on these things, I would take those words to mean exactly what they say. The implication is that the story could change tomorrow, or as soon as CCP gets the cache scraping functionality provided by the API, which is what Screegs said he wanted in the thread you linked to.
So yeah, bottom line is that cache scraping is illegal. But you won't get banned for it. Yet. While I can certainly also see his point, Screegs does not make CCP policy by himself (e.g. the EULA), he simply enforces a section of it via his mighty banhammer. That further contributes to the gray area I think it's a grey area now because there are things preventing him from wielding his hammer. His intent is clearly indicated in the thread. That fact that his intent isn't official policy is something he's also clearly not happy about. So you can bet that Screegs is going to give up on this issue and forget about it or quit or something because he just doesn't care, or you can bet that he is going to arrange things so that official policy reflects his opinion that has been clearly expressed. Which one of those two things do you think is more likely to happen?
Yes, he made his opinion abundantly clear, he believes that cashe scraping should be illegal, but he is currently in a minority at CCP that believe this to be the case and he doesn't want to accept that.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2601747#post2601747
I've never agreed with it. My stance of "Don't modify the client" hasn't changed since day one. That GMs for some reason have a different interpretation than I do is irrelevant.
He now seems to be on a personal crusade to force this view on others and thus force a change in the rules and bugga the GM's that don't think as he does.
CCP need to sort this out and get everyone involved in this to work from the same page, as it were. This sort of inconsistency between GM has been going on for as long as I have been playing.
CCPSreegs: That GMs for some reason have a different interpretation than I do is irrelevant.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2601747#post2601747 |
Abrazzar
774
|
Posted - 2013.02.13 23:27:00 -
[22] - Quote
Agustice Arterius wrote:More information on this would be cool.
People are quoting Screegs on reddit as if he is saying stuff like "I want to ban everybody for alt tabbing".
But I mean, that's reddit so...
In the News Article CCP Manifest provided here talk is about a blog coming soon.
Please visit your user settings to re-enable images. |
Solstice Project
Brave Newbies Inc.
2739
|
Posted - 2013.02.13 23:42:00 -
[23] - Quote
Tbh, if you download the whole market of a whole region,
then you really really really deserve to get your ass kicked,
but THAT'S just my personal opinion.
What's not my personal opinion, though, is the following:
You do it ... and that's already kind of an unfair advantage ... but okay, you're smart.
Suddenly others become smart too and do it too.
One of these smart people becomes even smarter and makes this available to EVEN MORE PEOPLE.
Now EVEN MORE PEOPLE do it and suddenly ... who would have funk ! ... EVERYBODY DOES IT !
Conclusion: Market goes BOOM !
And i don't mean just The Forge and a few items.
No ! Come on, that's ridiculous !
I'm talking about
Literally
Every single item
In every region
In every system.
BOOM ! The End.
Inappropriate signature removed. Spitfire |
Glathull
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
134
|
Posted - 2013.02.13 23:45:00 -
[24] - Quote
Mackenzie Hawkwood wrote:Yes, he made his opinion abundantly clear, he believes that cashe scraping should be illegal, but he is currently in a minority at CCP that believe this to be the case and he doesn't want to accept that. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2601747#post2601747I've never agreed with it. My stance of "Don't modify the client" hasn't changed since day one. That GMs for some reason have a different interpretation than I do is irrelevant.He now seems to be on a personal crusade to force this view on others and thus force a change in the rules and bugga the GM's that don't think as he does. CCP need to sort this out and get everyone involved in this to work from the same page, as it were. This sort of inconsistency between GM has been going on for as long as I have been playing.
I don't disagree with you at all. The OP wanted clarification, and I was trying to help out. I don't think we'll get any more than what we've already gotten.
CCP is divided on the issue. Screegs has an opinion. My guess is that his opinion will win in the long run and you're taking risks by cache scraping. But for an official statement, I doubt we will see one until some consensus is reached within CCP.
Until then, I interpret Screegs as meaning, "Do this at your own risk."
To repeat, the skill split is scheduled for the big Summer 2013 expansion. ~CCP Fozzie |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army
Atrocitas
3035
|
Posted - 2013.02.13 23:46:00 -
[25] - Quote
Glathull wrote:Mackenzie Hawkwood wrote:Yes, he made his opinion abundantly clear, he believes that cashe scraping should be illegal, but he is currently in a minority at CCP that believe this to be the case and he doesn't want to accept that. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2601747#post2601747I've never agreed with it. My stance of "Don't modify the client" hasn't changed since day one. That GMs for some reason have a different interpretation than I do is irrelevant.He now seems to be on a personal crusade to force this view on others and thus force a change in the rules and bugga the GM's that don't think as he does. CCP need to sort this out and get everyone involved in this to work from the same page, as it were. This sort of inconsistency between GM has been going on for as long as I have been playing. I don't disagree with you at all. The OP wanted clarification, and I was trying to help out. I don't think we'll get any more than what we've already gotten. CCP is divided on the issue. Screegs has an opinion. My guess is that his opinion will win in the long run and you're taking risks by cache scraping. But for an official statement, I doubt we will see one until some consensus is reached within CCP. Until then, I interpret Screegs as meaning, "Do this at your own risk."
I'm pretty sure that Sreegs will make a formal and official announcement when cache scraping is no longer allowed and the allowed functionality is replicated via API.
-Liang
Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?)
Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com
PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos
Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
|
Glathull
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
134
|
Posted - 2013.02.13 23:53:00 -
[26] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:
I'm pretty sure that Sreegs will make a formal and official announcement when cache scraping is no longer allowed and the allowed functionality is replicated via API.
-Liang
Almost certainly. But then again, I would've thought CCP would announce major changes to skills like orcas and command ships as early as they announced the dessy/BC changes. So who knows what they will announce.
But I digress . . . .
To repeat, the skill split is scheduled for the big Summer 2013 expansion. ~CCP Fozzie |
Uppsy Daisy
24th Imperial Crusade
Amarr Empire
132
|
Posted - 2013.02.13 23:56:00 -
[27] - Quote
Solstice Project wrote:Tbh, if you download the whole market of a whole region,
then you really really really deserve to get your ass kicked,
but THAT'S just my personal opinion.
What's not my personal opinion, though, is the following:
You do it ... and that's already kind of an unfair advantage ... but okay, you're smart.
Suddenly others become smart too and do it too.
One of these smart people becomes even smarter and makes this available to EVEN MORE PEOPLE.
Now EVEN MORE PEOPLE do it and suddenly ... who would have funk ! ... EVERYBODY DOES IT !
Conclusion: Market goes BOOM !
And i don't mean just The Forge and a few items.
No ! Come on, that's ridiculous !
I'm talking about
Literally
Every single item
In every region
In every system.
BOOM ! The End.
The Eve Marketeer website (back when it was up) allowed you to do precisely this, with no interaction.
It was then trivial to start up a tool like Eve Mentat and load up all the prices via cache scraping, and compare them to your orders.
It was not rocket science, in fact quite the contrary.
And EVERYONE *was* doing it, and thinking it was legal.
But is it? |
Marius Deterium
Crush Kill Destroy
20
|
Posted - 2013.02.14 00:00:00 -
[28] - Quote
Does it really matter what Screegs opinion is?
CCP needs clear definition on these issues and not let wild GMs and guys who call them self "Screeg" making bannable decisions on their whim at the time. |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army
Atrocitas
3038
|
Posted - 2013.02.14 00:07:00 -
[29] - Quote
Glathull wrote:Liang Nuren wrote:
I'm pretty sure that Sreegs will make a formal and official announcement when cache scraping is no longer allowed and the allowed functionality is replicated via API.
-Liang
Almost certainly. But then again, I would've thought CCP would announce major changes to skills like orcas and command ships as early as they announced the dessy/BC changes. So who knows what they will announce. But I digress . . . .
Those are different departments
-Liang
Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?)
Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com
PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos
Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
|
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army
Atrocitas
3038
|
Posted - 2013.02.14 00:07:00 -
[30] - Quote
Marius Deterium wrote:Does it really matter what Screegs opinion is?
CCP needs clear definition on these issues and not let wild GMs and guys who call them self "Screeg" making bannable decisions on their whim at the time.
Yes, it does. Because he is the final arbiter of whether the application that you wrote to make your market trades inhumanly fast is a bot. :)
-Liang
Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?)
Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com
PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos
Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
|
| |
|
| Pages: [1] 2 3 4 5 :: one page |
| First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |