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Bethan Le Troix Krusual Investigation Agency 2	Posted - 2013.02.25 09:47:00 - [1] - Quote First of all I will state that this is not a troll and merely an encouragement for miners to implement a sensible tank on their mining vessels. Please be aware that a small shield extender and a small shield booster is NOT a sensible tank. This comment is solely directed at pilots of Hulks & Mackinaws. I bumped into my old friend from [TEST] yesterday whom was on one of his visits to high-sec to peruse the mining belts in search of untanked Hulks & Mackinaws. While I was speaking to him he found a lot of Hulks and Mackinaws, some with Orca support in small mining fleets, and a fair few of these Hulks & Mackinaws were sent to the miners graveyard. He showed me the kill mails as he did this and most of them had either no tanking modules or rigs at all or at best feeble tanks with small extender/booster and no resistance modules at all. In addition some of these vessels appeared to be 'afk' but I do not wish to discuss that problem here. I realise that 'bumping' may be felt to be the greater risk nowadays than being ganked but be reassured that piloting a Hulk or Mackinaw without a sensible tank vastly increases your chance of losing your ship. I am interested in the reasoning behind not fitting a tank to your expensive mining vessel. Is it one of the following: 1) I am lazy and couldn't be bothered. 2) I can't afford to fit one. 3) I didn't think Hulks & Mackinaws were ganked anymore. 4) I thought the mining rebalancing/crimewatch changes meant I couldn't be ganked now. 5) I thought 'bumping' was the new ganking. 6) I thought a small extender & booster was enough. (You know who you are. ). 7) Another reason. All of the above are incorrect assumptions or bad reasons for not fitting a sensible tank. I'm not personally a fan of ganking BUT if you fly without a sensible tank YOU DESERVE to be ganked. Nuff said. PS This is post is designed to be in the S & I section as miners frequent this board.
Dave Stark 1861	Posted - 2013.02.25 10:08:00 - [2] - Quote 7) because i bet i can store my hulk in my orca quicker than you can pop it. "100k for notifications of stupidity, i love this bounty system."
Snow Axe GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 1008	Posted - 2013.02.25 10:10:00 - [3] - Quote 7) I've spent all of my time in Eve mining and wouldn't know how to properly fit a ship if you held a gun to my head "Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread["
Dave Stark 1861	Posted - 2013.02.25 10:11:00 - [4] - Quote oh also, good luck fitting anything other than a small extender when you only have about 7 powergrid left. "100k for notifications of stupidity, i love this bounty system."
Dave Stark 1861	Posted - 2013.02.25 10:17:00 - [5] - Quote also, let me demonstrate via the medium of napkin maths how much of a ******** idea it is go give up your low slots for tank and/or fitting modules. difference between a 0 mlu hulk and a 3 mlu throwaway retriever, 2%. so for 2% yield loss i can have a ship i don't have to pay attention to, less issues with crystal storage space, the same yield (which, it will be, since i don't short cycle asteroids), and not a single care given if it gets popped (which, it won't because it's not a big enough target to have some one pad their killboard with it) edit: none of my profanity seems to be being filtered lately... strange. "100k for notifications of stupidity, i love this bounty system."
Carniflex StarHunt 35	Posted - 2013.02.25 10:18:00 - [6] - Quote Well, TBH, you cant really tank hulks and macks, or retrivers and that other large barge. Or yeah, you can put something on them, but all that changes is that it wil take 2 dessies instead of one to gank it or if solo the ganker just has to use Vextor instead. so with that out of the way the miner has not much point sacrificing the yield byt 10% or more while STILL going down when attacked. So they dont. They just cross their fingers and hope that its not that day when their number comes up. Statistically, most of the time, they are right. Unless someone takes into their head to pop one specific miner every few days in which case should he petition there might, or might not be a discussion with GM about what can be considered "harassing". Here, sanity... niiiice sanity, come to daddy... okay, that's a good sanity... THWONK! GOT the bastard.
Sergeant major Axterd State War Academy Caldari State 0	Posted - 2013.02.25 10:42:00 - [7] - Quote Quote: [Mackinaw, HERP YIELD] Mining Laser Upgrade II Mining Laser Upgrade II Mining Laser Upgrade II [empty med slot] [empty med slot] [empty med slot] [empty med slot] Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II Yield : 1.3k EHP : 14.5k Quote: [Mackinaw, DERP TANK] Mining Laser Upgrade II Mining Laser Upgrade II Damage Control II Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Thermic Dissipation Amplifier II [empty med slot] [empty med slot] Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II Medium Core Defense Field Extender I Medium Core Defense Field Extender I Yield : 1.2k EHP : 30.3k Additional cost : ~10M ISK 8) NO EXCUSES ! "THAT SENTENCE HAD TOO MANY SYLLABLES ! APOLOGIZE !"
Dave Stark 1861	Posted - 2013.02.25 11:13:00 - [8] - Quote Sergeant major Axterd wrote: Quote: [Mackinaw, HERP YIELD] Mining Laser Upgrade II Mining Laser Upgrade II Mining Laser Upgrade II [empty med slot] [empty med slot] [empty med slot] [empty med slot] Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II Yield : 1.3k EHP : 14.5k Quote: [Mackinaw, DERP TANK] Mining Laser Upgrade II Mining Laser Upgrade II Damage Control II Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Thermic Dissipation Amplifier II [empty med slot] [empty med slot] Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II Medium Core Defense Field Extender I Medium Core Defense Field Extender I Yield : 1.2k EHP : 30.3k Additional cost : ~10M ISK 8) NO EXCUSES ! retriever with 3 mlus 3.6% more yield, about 20% of the cost. PLENTY OF EXCUSES starting with; why pay more and receive less? "100k for notifications of stupidity, i love this bounty system."
Sergeant major Axterd State War Academy Caldari State 0	Posted - 2013.02.25 11:40:00 - [9] - Quote Dave Stark wrote: retriever with 3 mlus 3.6% more yield, about 20% of the cost. PLENTY OF EXCUSES starting with; why pay more and receive less? also your ehp on your first mackinaw fit is way off. which implies your second fit is also wrong. YOU'RE THINKING ! THAT'S ILLEGAL ! On a more serious tone, just by putting a DC and an Invulnerabitlity Field on your Retriever you'll be on the bottom of the ganker's list (because there will always be other untanked ships around). It all depends on the system you're mining in, if you're in a fairly safe one, then there is barely no need to tank your Retriver, as you said. "THAT SENTENCE HAD TOO MANY SYLLABLES ! APOLOGIZE !"
Zifrian Licentia Ex Vereor Black Core Alliance 880	Posted - 2013.02.25 11:58:00 - [10] - Quote Yield. That's the only reason. You don't have to worry about rats in empire. In null I have a substandard tank but it really doesn't matter, I get caught there I'm going to lose my hulk regardless. Funny you say a small extender and a shield booster doesn't make a tank...that's what I use but I can usually tank BS rats solo with it heh. Maximze your Industry Potential! - Get EVE Isk per Hour!

Tau Cabalander Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs 1599	Posted - 2013.02.25 14:25:00 - [11] - Quote Zifrian wrote: Yield. That's the only reason. You don't have to worry about rats in empire. It's not the rats I worry about in hisec. Anyways, one can buy nearly 6 Covetors that yield 8% more than a tanked Hulk (both low slots used for tanking), for the price of a single Hulk. A Hulk with a single MLU II is only +1% better, and 2 MLU II for +10% make a Hulk rather weak.
Fluffi Flaffi Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 35	Posted - 2013.02.25 15:28:00 - [12] - Quote Mackinaw with 2x MLU + DC is as good as a Mackinaw with 3x MLU! You know why, because Mackinaw is mainly used for mainly afk-mining due to it's big ore cargo hold. So I don't care about theoretically (!) max yield. I check my miner from time to time and if strip miner has finished I just put it on a new asteroid. So while using to have nearly doubled EHP most gankers will not engage me as I am not on their list, like thread opener explained, because they can destroy 2 Mackinaws with the same amount of destroyers than my ones! So most do not care about my exhumers, even when they stay in a system in a belt afk for 2-3 hours when I just forget them. And if you / I don't mine afk I use Hulks in mining fleets. And for them max yield may count most times, but even then you can put some tank on them, not much, but some! I prefer not to mine in well frequented systems and I avoid systems with ICE belts, because often gankers will be looking there first and they often promise easy targets. In 2.5 years I had never to bother any gank attack except during Hulkageddon 2 times which I by the way survived as well as those who tried didn't used ship scannes before. I am sure about this, otherwise they should have been aware in advance, that their attempts where condemned to fail 100%.
Dave Stark 1861	Posted - 2013.02.25 15:33:00 - [13] - Quote Fluffi Flaffi wrote: Mackinaw with 2x MLU + DC is as good as a Mackinaw with 3x MLU! opening with a statement as stupid as that is the fastest way to get people to not take you seriously, just so you're aware. mainly because it just isn't true. because if that were the case, MLUs would be irrelevant. however, they aren't. "100k for notifications of stupidity, i love this bounty system."
Fluffi Flaffi Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 35	Posted - 2013.02.25 15:37:00 - [14] - Quote Dave Stark wrote: Fluffi Flaffi wrote: Mackinaw with 2x MLU + DC is as good as a Mackinaw with 3x MLU! opening with a statement as stupid as that is the fastest way to get people to not take you seriously, just so you're aware. mainly because it just isn't true. because if that were the case, MLUs would be irrelevant. however, they aren't. Being as ignorant to not read the explaination why makes you look like you think no end of yourself! if you mine 100% active including checking your Survey Scanner every strip miner cycle yes, a 3rd MLU makes sense. But a lot of Retrievers / Makinaws in the belts doesn't work that way. Easy to recognise when their strip miners are not working for a period of time. So next time first read. And by the way: Your stupid 3.6% better Retriever compared to a tanked Mackinaw is far more senseless. A Mackinaw has a much higher cargo space, therefore can stay much longer in the belt without unloading! This increases it's real yield and in addition to that it is tanked and is not on the list of gankes like the friend of thread opener! And if you compare it to a 3x MLU Mackinaw, what makes sense your answer is even more useless. And if we take into consideration how often a miner is ganked in his eve-career if he following some simple rules, your answer is ... you know what I mean.
Susanoo Miza Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic 0	Posted - 2013.02.25 17:58:00 - [15] - Quote This is my tank on a Mack which I use afk while playing with my main. Mack: Low slot: Power Diagnostic System II Power Diagnostic System II Pseudoelectron Containment Field I Mid slot: Medium Shield Extender II EM Ward Field II Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Adaptive Invulnerability Field II High Slot: Ice Harvester II Ice Harvester II Rigs: Medium Core Defense Field Extender I Medium Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer I with max fitting skills you still need a 4% CPU implant Had 4 destroyers try to take me out in a 0.5 Gallente system, tank went down to 65% shield, then they got popped by Concord. Yes, I know my yield sucks, but that is no concern to me.
Thelodas MoG Republic 7	Posted - 2013.02.25 20:37:00 - [16] - Quote [Mackinaw, Mining] Mining Laser Upgrade II Mining Laser Upgrade II [empty low slot] Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Thermic Dissipation Amplifier II EM Ward Amplifier II Survey Scanner II Modulated Strip Miner II, Modulated Strip Miner II, Medium Core Defense Field Extender I Medium Core Defense Field Extender I Hobgoblin II x5 25,543 EHP This survived a well fit 3 box catalyst team in .6 space. Got down to 80% hull before concord vaporized them. I won't field a mack until the toon in question can fit at least all the T1 versions of the respective fittings.
Dave Stark 1865	Posted - 2013.02.25 23:09:00 - [17] - Quote Fluffi Flaffi wrote: Being as ignorant to not read the explaination why makes you look like you think no end of yourself! i did read it, your post got considerably worse the longer you spend reading it. "100k for notifications of stupidity, i love this bounty system."
Haste Renalard H.A.W.K. 0	Posted - 2013.02.26 02:03:00 - [18] - Quote Dave Stark wrote: Fluffi Flaffi wrote: Being as ignorant to not read the explaination why makes you look like you think no end of yourself! i did read it, your post got considerably worse the longer you spend reading it. you're still using a more expensive ship, to mine slower. just a quick thing for you to think about; if my idea about the retriever is so bad, why is around 1/3 of all high sec ore mined in a retriever? Because Ret's are a lot less time to train than a Mack/Hulk is? Ret's are a more newbie friendly mining ship. Plus a lot of botters / multi boxers use ret's because its less training time and they are running 3+ miners at once anyways
Dave Stark 1866	Posted - 2013.02.26 07:33:00 - [19] - Quote Haste Renalard wrote: Dave Stark wrote: Fluffi Flaffi wrote: Being as ignorant to not read the explaination why makes you look like you think no end of yourself! i did read it, your post got considerably worse the longer you spend reading it. you're still using a more expensive ship, to mine slower. just a quick thing for you to think about; if my idea about the retriever is so bad, why is around 1/3 of all high sec ore mined in a retriever? Because Ret's are a lot less time to train than a Mack/Hulk is? Ret's are a more newbie friendly mining ship. Plus a lot of botters / multi boxers use ret's because its less training time and they are running 3+ miners at once anyways i'm not sure i believe 1/3 of high sec miners are less than what, 3 months old? i mean, really? do you believe that? "100k for notifications of stupidity, i love this bounty system."
Fluffi Flaffi Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 36	Posted - 2013.02.26 09:36:00 - [20] - Quote Dave Stark wrote: Haste Renalard wrote: Dave Stark wrote: Fluffi Flaffi wrote: Being as ignorant to not read the explaination why makes you look like you think no end of yourself! i did read it, your post got considerably worse the longer you spend reading it. you're still using a more expensive ship, to mine slower. just a quick thing for you to think about; if my idea about the retriever is so bad, why is around 1/3 of all high sec ore mined in a retriever? Because Ret's are a lot less time to train than a Mack/Hulk is? Ret's are a more newbie friendly mining ship. Plus a lot of botters / multi boxers use ret's because its less training time and they are running 3+ miners at once anyways i'm not sure i believe 1/3 of high sec miners are less than what, 3 months old? i mean, really? do you believe that? Yes! And it's exactly more or less the ratio in our corp. All the ones, who are not focusing on mining have trained mining barge to Level 3 or 4 and when the mine from time to time they use Retriever and especially at the beginning when every ISK counts you do not invest in Mackinaw for a few % more yield. For them as trader, explorer, mission runner or whatsoever it's not worth to train Exhumers, expecially not in the beginning. They just skill rapidly Mining Barge to attend mining operations or do some afk-isk-mining when they are not at the keyboard. As stated above already: You are ignorant. And now just stop posting bullshit. You didn't even replied to one of my points why your replies are just plain dumb. I know why, because you know I am right in every single point, but you can't accept that as you think you are Mr. Eve. And I use a more expensive ship when mining afk to mine more (because of higher ore cargo hold!!!) not because it mines a little slower. And when I mine actively it is mining much more than your simple retriever fit. But this I have explained already in detail above. Seems you are too dumb or too ignorant to understand and accept this. Sorry for being so direct.

Skorpynekomimi 459	Posted - 2013.02.26 11:28:00 - [21] - Quote I tank everything I fly. Even my undock-setting frigate has a set of passive resists fitted in case someone takes a potshot.
Carniflex StarHunt 35	Posted - 2013.02.26 14:04:00 - [22] - Quote Well - more realistic Mack setup is something on the lines of [Mackinaw, AFK_Tanki] Damage Control II 2x Mining Laser Upgrade II (or ice) Thermic Dissipation Amplifier II Upgraded Thermic Dissipation Amplifier I Kinetic Deflection Amplifier II Upgraded EM Ward Amplifier I 2x Strip Miner I (or Ice miner II) Medium Ice Harvester Accelerator I Medium Processor Overclocking Unit I i.e., not shield extender rigs but the ice and cpu ones. Granted some people dont mine ice at all, but as its very afk friendly activity many who do use the "afk" barges also use ice rigs. Thats approx 32,5k ehp against kin/thermal. A gank vextor does approx ~930 dps (Neutron blasters with null, 3x Ogre II) - that would give it survivability of approx 35 seconds against single vextor. Without the damage control the ehp of a Mack drops to ~24k against kin/therm if you try to tank the mids within the cpu you have. Thats ~26 sec - still plenty for the COCORD to come even in sec 0.5. A gank catalyst does approx 600 dps. Pair of them against tanky mack ~27 sec. Three of them ~18 sec (getting there in sec 0.5 probably) and four would take down tanked mack in 13.5 sec, thats already pretty reliable in most of the hi sec. Against non-tanky mack it would mean ~20 sec for pair of catalysts, not quiiite enough, so three would be needed with some time to spare. So what does this mean in simple terms. (1) Single Vextor - not quite enough for taking down mack, with our without damage control if mids are a bit tanked. (2) Pair of catalysts - not quite enough for taking down a mack, although the one without damage control gets deep into hull. (3) Pair of Vextors or thee catalysts - the mack will go down, propbably, tanked or otherwise. With damage control its close call, might survive with sliver of hull, might not. Without damage control it will go down, no questions there. (4) Anything more - it will go down, tanked or not. Retris are made of wet towels. You can "tank" it all you want but all it does for you is that the ganker will need to use vextor instead of catalyst, or pair of catalysts, if they want to have enough time to pop the pod as well. Retris top out at approx 16k EHP. That is enough for single Vextor to take down. If its without damage control then single catalyst is sufficient. Here, sanity... niiiice sanity, come to daddy... okay, that's a good sanity... THWONK! GOT the bastard.
Dave Stark 1866	Posted - 2013.02.26 15:33:00 - [23] - Quote Fluffi Flaffi wrote: Dave Stark wrote: Haste Renalard wrote: Dave Stark wrote: Fluffi Flaffi wrote: Being as ignorant to not read the explaination why makes you look like you think no end of yourself! i did read it, your post got considerably worse the longer you spend reading it. you're still using a more expensive ship, to mine slower. just a quick thing for you to think about; if my idea about the retriever is so bad, why is around 1/3 of all high sec ore mined in a retriever? Because Ret's are a lot less time to train than a Mack/Hulk is? Ret's are a more newbie friendly mining ship. Plus a lot of botters / multi boxers use ret's because its less training time and they are running 3+ miners at once anyways i'm not sure i believe 1/3 of high sec miners are less than what, 3 months old? i mean, really? do you believe that? Yes! And it's exactly more or less the ratio in our corp. All the ones, who are not focusing on mining have trained mining barge to Level 3 or 4 and when the mine from time to time they use Retriever and especially at the beginning when every ISK counts you do not invest in Mackinaw for a few % more yield. For them as trader, explorer, mission runner or whatsoever it's not worth to train Exhumers, expecially not in the beginning. They just skill rapidly Mining Barge to attend mining operations or do some afk-isk-mining when they are not at the keyboard. As stated above already: You are ignorant. And now just stop posting bullshit. You didn't even replied to one of my points why your replies are just plain dumb. I know why, because you know I am right in every single point, but you can't accept that as you think you are Mr. Eve. And I use a more expensive ship when mining afk to mine more (because of higher ore cargo hold!!!) not because it mines a little slower. And when I mine actively it is mining much more than your simple retriever fit. But this I have explained already in detail above. Seems you are too dumb or too ignorant to understand and accept this. Sorry for being so direct. so, no, they aren't less than 3 months old in your corp. in fact, you indirectly just proved my point. they haven't trained for a mackinaw, because there's simply no value in doing so. just like my alt, it can sit in a mackinaw but it never will. one of the issues with the barge rebalance is even though individual ships are now closer in yield, the gap between exhumers and barges is too small. with the price of barges vs exhumers that price difference really does make it worth "isk tanking" rather than fitting an appropriate tank to an exhumer. it's cheaper on isk, cheaper on SP investment, etc there's no denying the mackinaw does things better than a retriever, it's a direct upgrade in every regard. however, when you sacrifice an MLU for a damage control you've then got a ship that, in order to not get ganked, must mine less. conversely you can get a higher yield in a ship that at the end of the day, is irrelevant if it gets ganked or not, because it's so cheap. yes, the mackinaw has more ore bay space, by less than two cycles. the hulk, holds less than two cycles, just as perspective. if you're mining directly in to an orca, (because, for example, you only have one mining ship (yes i know, flimsy reason but bare with me)) your retriever will outmine your mackinaw. the simple fact is that the mackinaw is not worth it's price tag when the mining barges are so close to exhumers. you can call me ignorant all you want; that doesn't change the fact that it isn't true and it's just you calling me ignorant. you're welcome to type what you want on a public forum, no need to be sorry, i'm a big guy i can take it. "100k for notifications of stupidity, i love this bounty system."
Dave Stark 1866	Posted - 2013.02.26 15:35:00 - [24] - Quote Carniflex wrote: 2x Strip Miner I gonna have to stop you right there. really? strip miner Is? last i checked that was a 16% yield loss right there. that's actually massive, that's more than the hulk's exhumer bonus. i'm hoping you just missed out an I? "100k for notifications of stupidity, i love this bounty system."
Tharin Malkyre Knights of the Ouroboros 3	Posted - 2013.02.26 21:08:00 - [25] - Quote I tank everything. Even my hauling Mammoth has its mids full of resist amps. My Mack is skilling towards: [Mackinaw, Thumper] Mining Laser Upgrade II Damage Control II Inertia Stabilizers II Survey Scanner II Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Medium Shield Booster II Explosive Deflection Amplifier II Modulated Strip Miner II, Plagioclase Mining Crystal II Modulated Strip Miner II, Plagioclase Mining Crystal II Medium Core Defense Field Purger I Medium Core Defense Field Extender I Warrior II x5 Salvage Drone I x2 Mining Drone II x3 Any yield loss is far outweighed by reducing the chance I'll be blown to bits while I'm reading Game of Thrones.
loyalanon The Conference Elite Rainbow Dash Friends 84	Posted - 2013.02.27 02:55:00 - [26] - Quote We have ganked a ton of mackinaws and hulks in the past few months, and I have found the best setup to use is to at least use a damage control, one thermic hardener and an invuln field. But miners are greedy and it is rare to find a miner who has a solid tank. one small shield booster will not help you. Proof of kills below - http://eve-kill.net/?a=corp_detail&crp_id=298890
Inkarr Hashur Sine Nobilitatis 207	Posted - 2013.02.27 04:47:00 - [27] - Quote loyalanon wrote: We have ganked a ton of mackinaws and hulks in the past few months, and I have found the best setup to use is to at least use a damage control, one thermic hardener and an invuln field. But miners are greedy and it is rare to find a miner who has a solid tank. one small shield booster will not help you. Proof of kills below - http://eve-kill.net/?a=corp_detail&crp_id=298890 How do so many people on that killboard field a 180M hull and not even bother throwing on even a modest tank?
Petya Gladiator Enlightened Industries Test Alliance Please Ignore 1	Posted - 2013.02.27 06:22:00 - [28] - Quote I was still able to gank a mack with 37k ehp. Your best tank is when your not afk, and orbiting a belt. http://killboard.enl-i.com/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=66316
Dave Stark 1870	Posted - 2013.02.27 07:42:00 - [29] - Quote Petya Gladiator wrote: I was still able to gank a mack with 37k ehp. Your best tank is when your not afk, and orbiting a belt. http://killboard.enl-i.com/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=66316 or for the price of that 1 mackinaw, i could lose at least 5 retrievers, that would have also had a higher yield than that mackinaw. "100k for notifications of stupidity, i love this bounty system."
Carniflex StarHunt 36	Posted - 2013.02.27 07:54:00 - [30] - Quote Dave Stark wrote: Carniflex wrote: 2x Strip Miner I gonna have to stop you right there. really? strip miner Is? last i checked that was a 16% yield loss right there. that's actually massive, that's more than the hulk's exhumer bonus. i'm hoping you just missed out an I? Actually - I did not. If you gonna strip the belt anyway and do so semiafk then theres not much wrong with Strip I. I'm aware ofc that T1 crystals in modulated strips would give me 8% yield bonus and T2 crystals about 16 % yield bonus. But one would be required to carry some crystals for that ;) But for actually-at-keyboard mining Strip II + crystal is ofc the best. In that case you would also want to use ore scanner and to stop the miners when roid would pop and so on. then again, in my opinion, if you are already at keyboard there is much better things to do that yield substantially higher isk/h than mining. Incursions, Lev 4's, Exploration even. Or mine in null sec as you are there anyway to look at the local. Here, sanity... niiiice sanity, come to daddy... okay, that's a good sanity... THWONK! GOT the bastard.

Jayson Kassis Carbon Industries 32	Posted - 2013.02.27 09:44:00 - [31] - Quote Exhumers are a bad joke. They are only beacons for bored gankers. 200million for a Mack does not justify the extra ore hold and less yield (assuming tanked) considering the amplified risk that comes with owning one. You will lose it eventually and it will suck. I think people don't tank it because they feel safe. Only when they lose it, do they realize they should be using a retriever.
Fluffi Flaffi Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 36	Posted - 2013.02.27 10:38:00 - [32] - Quote Dave Stark wrote: so, no, they aren't less than 3 months old in your corp. in fact, you indirectly just proved my point. they haven't trained for a mackinaw, because there's simply no value in doing so. just like my alt, it can sit in a mackinaw but it never will. That's just as stupid as your previous replies. There is a clear difference between I don't train an exhumer, because I rarely mine and between I can fly Exhumer, but doesn't do so because I'm dumb. I have not proven any of your point. How ridiculous is that statement from you, honestly?! Dave Stark wrote: one of the issues with the barge rebalance is even though individual ships are now closer in yield, the gap between exhumers and barges is too small. with the price of barges vs exhumers that price difference really does make it worth "isk tanking" rather than fitting an appropriate tank to an exhumer. it's cheaper on isk, cheaper on SP investment, etc there's no denying the mackinaw does things better than a retriever, it's a direct upgrade in every regard. however, when you sacrifice an MLU for a damage control you've then got a ship that, in order to not get ganked, must mine less. conversely you can get a higher yield in a ship that at the end of the day, is irrelevant if it gets ganked or not, because it's so cheap. Bullshit. I have just proven earlier to you, that Mackinaw pays out against Retriever already within 48 hours, just by using the Mining Drones, not even counting the extra yield! I mean drones, just the drones? You can not just ignore that and still insist on your false opinion, that they are not worth the extra money, if you can afford them. You can't just stupidly compare a DC2 Mack with a max yield Retriever. That's useless. Dave Stark wrote: yes, the mackinaw has more ore bay space, by less than two cycles. the hulk, holds less than two cycles, just as perspective. if you're mining directly in to an orca, (because, for example, you only have one mining ship (yes i know, flimsy reason but bare with me)) your retriever will outmine your mackinaw. the simple fact is that the mackinaw is not worth it's price tag when the mining barges are so close to exhumers. you can call me ignorant all you want; that doesn't change the fact that it isn't true and it's just you calling me ignorant. you're welcome to type what you want on a public forum, no need to be sorry, i'm a big guy i can take it. "Your" Retriever will not outmine "mine" Mackinaw when mining into an orca, because: 1. in that case I would rather use a Hulk 2. if I would only have a Macki in that system it would have been fittet 100% for max yield. You just don't read what I wrote in my first post: A) Mining afk it's usefull to have have a tank with Damage Control II, because you are not on the priority list of many gankers anymore and it doesn't make any difference in isk. That's why T1 Strip miners are OK as well. Everyone who is mining afk (!) is not checking every 10 seconds if the asteroid is empty. So often coming back and nearly no strip miner is running anymore and asteroids are depleted and ore is in my cargo hold. If I would have used T2 Crystals and max yield fitting there wouldn't be more ore in my cargo hold. That's why it doesn't make a difference. B) Mining actively with Orca or without you always can have eyes on D-Scan or what's coming in the system, etc. if you want, so your chances to react on a threat are higher, which is not a guarantee to survive though, for sure. But then you gain a lot more by being fitted for max yield instead of tank.
Victor Maximus Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State 5	Posted - 2013.02.27 13:06:00 - [33] - Quote For me at least I look at it this way: Lets say your mining ice, nice and mostly afk solo in a 3 Ice Harvester Upgrade setup. Lets ballpark your yield at say, 5 mill isk per hour. Removing one IHU drops your yield to around 4.5 mill per hour. Since your mostly afk and in a mack you can just let things run, probably for a decent amount of time per day. Lets say you get in about 4 hours of ice mining per day. At 180 mill the value of your mack will be made up by those little .5 mill differences in 360 hours. At 4 hours per day your looking at making that difference up in 90 days. So the question is this. Do you think you will get ganked more than once every 3 months? If so its more cost effective to drop a mining upgrade and fit more tank. If not you would be loosing money fitting a tank. Now this is ice mining, in a very expensive ship. If you are making more isk per hour than this (you should be) then that repayment window would only be smaller, likewise with a cheaper ship. Having never been ganked I have no problem running with only a couple resist mods (whatever fits after the upgrades). I'm way ahead compared to where I would be had I fit a tank. So my personal view is that i'm safe enough not to get ganked enough to justify fitting a tank.
Melikor Tissant Odd Fluffy Bunnies 6	Posted - 2013.02.27 14:07:00 - [34] - Quote You want to AFK mine or ice eat? Get a skiff. Everything else will most likely die at some point, even with 30K EHP. That is the reason people mine without a tank. Most of them know that if you want to kill them, they will lose their ship anyway. So better yield as much as you can to cover the loss before someone comes. I have seen an ice belt where 20 out of 15 ice eaters blew up to ganks, tank or not. The 5 who didn't die where AFK with a skiff.
Vince Snetterton 253	Posted - 2013.02.27 15:50:00 - [35] - Quote Look, it is pretty pointless to mine in an area known to have a bunch of griefers operating in it. If they want a ship dead, it is dead. Full stop. Tank means nothing. Sure, some may go after low hanging fruit, but many look at a well tanked Mack as merely as a minor challenge. So 3 griefer cats can't break the 37-38K tank of a fully defensed Mack? No problem, swap to three 900 DPS Vexors, or if the griefers are flush with cash, 2 Tornados. Anyway you cut it, the only way you can avoid adding to the sick pleasure these "people" get from a gank, is to move away from them. CCP by whatever weird math they use or sense of what Eve should be, has decided that the number of accounts they lose by allowing this behaviour in game is acceptable. So the miners have to live with it, and do the best they can my moving away from the griefers to as remote a location as they can.
Mal Lokrano The Executives Executive Outcomes 1	Posted - 2013.02.27 17:36:00 - [36] - Quote Most likely imo is that they just don't stop to think that a tank might be helpful, even if it is just a couple passive resistance mods. Just yesterday someone lost a mackinaw in my alts industry system. All he had was a survey scanner for mid slots with 3 empty slots beside it. "When going to a Party with wine, women, and song. Always ascertain the vintage of the first two."
Bugsy VanHalen Society of lost Souls 497	Posted - 2013.02.27 18:30:00 - [37] - Quote Tharin Malkyre wrote: I tank everything. Even my hauling Mammoth has its mids full of resist amps. My Mack is skilling towards: [Mackinaw, Thumper] Mining Laser Upgrade II Damage Control II Inertia Stabilizers II Survey Scanner II Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Medium Shield Booster II Explosive Deflection Amplifier II Modulated Strip Miner II, Plagioclase Mining Crystal II Modulated Strip Miner II, Plagioclase Mining Crystal II Medium Core Defense Field Purger I Medium Core Defense Field Extender I Warrior II x5 Salvage Drone I x2 Mining Drone II x3 Any yield loss is far outweighed by reducing the chance I'll be blown to bits while I'm reading Game of Thrones. Sorry massive fail there. Inertia stabilizers are useless, agility is nice but Mack is to slow for it to get you out fast enough. Field Purger rig? Seriously? you will be dead before any amount of shield regen kicks in. Tanking against gankers requires buffer, passive shield recharge is useless. Medium shield booster, While much better than a small booster,again is useless, a ganker will burn through your buffer way faster than you can rep anything. Better off with more buffer. the idea is to survive long enough for concord to arrive. If you get hit by a 14k Alfa and you have less than 14K ehp, you will insta pop. shield boost and passive recharge make no difference. a damage controller is you single most effective tanking mod. At least you got that right. if you want a second low slot tank mod, reinforced bulk heads work well. Rigs I would say at least 1 field extender, if not two. If only one I would recommend a cpu overclock rig,Or an ancillary current router as in my experience fittings are tight and the limiting factor for tank on the Mack. You can ease the fitting by using faction mods, but this also makes you a bigger target, so up to you. you then want a medium shield extender, and hardeners. I usually go with thermal and invulnerability, but you can omni tank by filling the EM hole if you wish. A ganknado will almost always have faction EM ammo. While a Talos or catalyst will be fitting blasters that do thermal kinetic. While it is true there is not such thing as ungankable, most gankers are at the very least looking to pad kill boards, if not make a profit off the gank. Best mack max tank fit I have used is; Highs Strip miner II's with t2 crystals Mids F-S9 medium shield extender Invulnerability field II limited adaptive Invulnerability field I Thermal hardener II Lows Damage controller II Reinforced bulkheads II Reactor control II Rigs medium Shield extender I medium processor overclocking I leaves me 9.5 CPU and 0.3 PG with almost 30K ehp for em at 65/86/79/83 resists. 2 gank nados would likely fail trying to gank this. two Talos might do it if fully T2 fit. Would take several catalysts. For a little more mining you can drop the reinforced bulkhead II for a MLU II and the limited adaptive Invulnerability field I for a survey scanner and still get over 24K ehp with 55/83/73/78 resists either fit can swap the thermal hardener for an EM hardener for more Omni resists. But this will make you more vulnerable to the Blaster fit catalyst or Talos which seems to be the most common gank boats at the moment. But would be stronger against a ganknado with EM ammo. The problem with tanking a Mack like this is it defeats the point of moving up to an exhumer. This mack gets less yield than a retriever. might as well just fly a retriever and isk tank it for more yield. Isk tanking is effective as the idea is that your ship and fit is worth less than the ship and fit that will gank you. in many cases a catalyst. Thsiis bad for the ganker as it makes their kill board look bad. at least when they gank a ship worth more than the loss, even if there is no profit, at least the kill board ratio of destroyed isk compared to lost isk gets better. This is important to most PVP corps and alliances. This is called padding the kill board. Ganking exhumers can be an effective way of padding a kill board, while ganking barges is not, unless they are pimp fitted.
Gizznitt Malikite Agony Unleashed Agony Empire 1828	Posted - 2013.02.27 18:53:00 - [38] - Quote This is what I consider the optimal "tanked" Mack Fit: [Mackinaw, Mine] Micro Auxiliary Power Core I Damage Control II Mining Laser Upgrade II Medium F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Survey Scanner II Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II Medium Core Defense Field Extender I Medium Core Defense Field Extender I 1046 Strip miner yield, 39.6k EHP, and joining a fleet will a decent squad booster will add several k more EHP... It is not the most yield, nor the most EHP, but is a fairly decent middle ground that will thwart any casual assault... A standard group-ganking catalyst does ~500 dps, and gets ~20s in a 0.5 system before concord destroys them... meaning this fit will generally require 5 catalysts to take it out in a 0.5 system, 7 in a 0.7 system, especially if you overheat your hardeners when you are attacked.
Jayson Kassis Carbon Industries 32	Posted - 2013.02.27 18:58:00 - [39] - Quote Bugsy VanHalen wrote: The problem with tanking a Mack like this is it defeats the point of moving up to an exhumer. This mack gets less yield than a retriever. might as well just fly a retriever and isk tank it for more yield.
Dave Stark 1871	Posted - 2013.02.27 19:00:00 - [40] - Quote Fluffi Flaffi wrote: That's just as stupid as your previous replies. There is a clear difference between I don't train an exhumer, because I rarely mine and between I can fly Exhumer, but doesn't do so because I'm dumb. I have not proven any of your point. How ridiculous is that statement from you, honestly?! Bullshit. I have just proven earlier to you, that Mackinaw pays out against Retriever already within 48 hours, just by using the Mining Drones, not even counting the extra yield! I mean drones, just the drones? You can not just ignore that and still insist on your false opinion, that they are not worth the extra money, if you can afford them. You can't just stupidly compare a DC2 Mack with a max yield Retriever. That's useless. "Your" Retriever will not outmine "mine" Mackinaw when mining into an orca, because: 1. in that case I would rather use a Hulk 2. if I would only have a Macki in that system it would have been fittet 100% for max yield. You just don't read what I wrote in my first post: A) Mining afk it's usefull to have have a tank with Damage Control II, because you are not on the priority list of many gankers anymore and it doesn't make any difference in isk. That's why T1 Strip miners are OK as well. Everyone who is mining afk (!) is not checking every 10 seconds if the asteroid is empty. So often coming back and nearly no strip miner is running anymore and asteroids are depleted and ore is in my cargo hold. If I would have used T2 Crystals and max yield fitting there wouldn't be more ore in my cargo hold. That's why it doesn't make a difference. B) Mining actively with Orca or without you always can have eyes on D-Scan or what's coming in the system, etc. if you want, so your chances to react on a threat are higher, which is not a guarantee to survive though, for sure. But then you gain a lot more by being fitted for max yield instead of tank. you can't just say "that's ridiculous" every time you disagree with me. i didn't ignore your fact about drones, i just ignored the stupidity of saying "look i have drones". well, i have drones too, what do we do now? oh right, we go back to the original point that my yield is higher than yours. also, i can compare a max yield retriever to a DC fit mackinaw, because that's the exact damn point i'm trying to make. by taking a 180m ship, you make it inferior to a ~20m isk ship. which, in all honesty, is not offset by the bonuses a mackinaw has over the retriever. the ore capacity difference is laughable (the difference is less than the total ore bay of a hulk) and the tank is meaningless when you can lose retrievers with out giving a damn. as for fleet mining, yeah i'd rather have a hulk too. but who cares. as for the point in your original post, your tanked mackinaw is still a bigger target than my retriever. what's the bounty payout on a 40m total cost ship? 8m? probably enough to cover a catalyst... payout on a 200m ship? 40m. i won't lie, i'm not on top of market prices for throwaway catalysts but i'd say that'd easily cover the cost of multiple catalysts and leave pocket change. know what i'd be picking, as a ganker. if you can find one with a miner with a decent bounty (40m is hardly a high bounty) it's more profitable to gank a tanked mackinaw over an untanked retriver.) looks like you are on the priority of gankers, after all. "100k for notifications of stupidity, i love this bounty system."

Sergeant major Axterd State War Academy Caldari State 1	Posted - 2013.02.27 20:50:00 - [41] - Quote Procurer with 2xMLU : twice the EHP, half the cargohold, same yield, less than half the price of a 2xMLU + DC Retriever. No sane player will ever try to gank you (except for the LULZ). SKIFFS ARE FOR HOBOS ! SAVE A GANKER, DON'T FLY ONE ! "THAT SENTENCE HAD TOO MANY SYLLABLES ! APOLOGIZE !"
Kelleris Ars ex Discordia Test Alliance Please Ignore 5	Posted - 2013.02.27 21:01:00 - [42] - Quote Inkarr Hashur wrote: How do so many people on that killboard field a 180M hull and not even bother throwing on even a modest tank? I think that is what the OP was asking. Not tanking your barge is just lazy and stupid. The guy talking about how he is statistically unlikely to get ganked today is the one crying to CCP tomorrow to stop ganking, because they just got ganked. When I was doing hulkaggeddon any ships showing the hardener effect got skipped. If you want to stop ganking, tank your barges! Eventually all but the most desparate gankers will find something else to do with their time. Even though I just gave away the secret, I'm not worried. There will be untanked barges in the belts until CCP pulls the plug on TQ.
Styth spiting Ion Corp. NightSong Directorate 292	Posted - 2013.02.27 21:57:00 - [43] - Quote People don't tank them well because people don't want to train mining laser upgrades V and stop at IV. Because of this they don't have enough CPU or power to setup a descent tank and maybe do 1 mid and 2 rigs.
0Lona 0ltor Red Sky Morning BricK sQuAD. 31	Posted - 2013.02.28 09:49:00 - [44] - Quote No hulks and macks have sensible tanks since CCP buffed them to Battleship level HP levels. Most under thought and stupid buff in gaming history, welcome to World of Warcraft in space.
Carniflex StarHunt 37	Posted - 2013.02.28 10:18:00 - [45] - Quote 0Lona 0ltor wrote: No hulks and macks have sensible tanks since CCP buffed them to Battleship level HP levels. Most under thought and stupid buff in gaming history, welcome to World of Warcraft in space. Well - if your BS has ~30k ehp that is. In my book 30k ehp is more of a ballpark of moderately tanky cruiser. Ofc, to be fair, a unfitted Armageddon, for example, has indeed ~30k ehp. Here, sanity... niiiice sanity, come to daddy... okay, that's a good sanity... THWONK! GOT the bastard.
0Lona 0ltor Red Sky Morning BricK sQuAD. 32	Posted - 2013.02.28 15:11:00 - [46] - Quote My redeemer 1bn ISK combat vessel has 45k HP around the same as a skiff :) Yup World of War crack in space. Grind, grind away. Lets end pvp altogether.
Inkarr Hashur Sacrificial Lambs 208	Posted - 2013.02.28 16:11:00 - [47] - Quote 0Lona 0ltor wrote: My redeemer 1bn ISK combat vessel has 45k HP around the same as a skiff :) Yup World of War crack in space. Grind, grind away. Lets end pvp altogether. A skiff isn't a mack, you do realize they have different bonuses. Continue comparing to an improper fit 800M hull though, its a great argument. Take all your mad to some other game.
Dave Stark 1876	Posted - 2013.02.28 16:26:00 - [48] - Quote Inkarr Hashur wrote: 0Lona 0ltor wrote: My redeemer 1bn ISK combat vessel has 45k HP around the same as a skiff :) Yup World of War crack in space. Grind, grind away. Lets end pvp altogether. A skiff isn't a mack, you do realize they have different bonuses. Continue comparing to an improper fit 800M hull though, its a great argument. Take all your mad to some other game. expecting sensible arguments visiting these forums pick one, and only one. "100k for notifications of stupidity, i love this bounty system."
Sexy Cakes Have A Seat 200	Posted - 2013.02.28 17:22:00 - [49] - Quote I ice mine next to about 100 other mackinaws. Thats why. Not today spaghetti.
Bethan Le Troix Krusual Investigation Agency 2	Posted - 2013.03.13 17:47:00 - [50] - Quote Proper suicide gankers will not usually bother ganking Retrievers as it looks a bit naff on their killboards. With so many Hulks & Mackinaws flying in Caldari space with sometimes a very ineffective tank or none at all and often AFK there is no need to look for Retrievers. A proper miner will usually have hardwirings & implants fitted so it makes sense to fit a good tank. If you don't fit a tank and someone ganks you who doesn't mind taking the extra sec status hit for podding you as well the miner has lost even more ISK.

Ersahi Kir Freelance Mining Company 15	Posted - 2013.03.13 21:35:00 - [51] - Quote I don't know why people don't mine more in procurers and skiffs. Procurers are super cheap and can be annoying to gank when fit with T1 meta 0 mods. Procurer strip miner 1 medium shield extender 1 invurnability field 1 2 shield hardeners/resistance amps 2 mlu tech 0 (no rigs) Skiff strip miner 1 2 Med shield extender 2's 1 invurnability field 2 2 shield hardeners 2's 2 mlu 2's 2 shield extender rigs Mine in the skiff if you're not getting harassed. Not only is unattractive to gankers, but it looks badass and makes all the miner girl panties sticky. It's the fastest of all the exhumers/mining barges, and has the fastest warp speed. It's like the Corvette of mining. If you're getting harassed or you think you're in danger of getting ganked fly the procurer. They can gank you, but there's little benefit to them because it's cheap and easy to replace. There's also no loot value that they can pick up to help offset the cost of the gank. You could possibly go down to 1 mlu and put on a damage control, but honestly if they're that hard up to gank miners it may just be best to move to another area. It also helps that I have an orca that uses a shield harmonizing gang link 2. People can still gank me, nothing in eve can really stop that, but there are much softer targets available and they'll usually go find them. People that don't protect their investments from at least a minimal gank deserve to lose their ships. /for ice mining you have to drop the specific hardeners to resist amps
Ditra Vorthran Caldari Imports and Exports 151	Posted - 2013.03.13 21:39:00 - [52] - Quote Tanked Mack - Ore Miner [Low Slots] Mining Laser Upgrade II x 2 Damage Control II [Mid Slots] Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Survey Scanner T2 Small F-S Regolith Shield Induction Micro F-S Regolith Shield Induction [High Slots} Modulated Strip Miner II x 2 [Rigs] Medium Core Defense Field Extender I x 2 EHP - 31,312 Yield/hour = 81,060 m3 Yield Mack - Ore Miner [Low Slots] Mining Laser Upgrade II x 3 [Mid Slots] Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Survey Scanner T2 [High Slots} Modulated Strip Miner II x 2 [Rigs] Medium Core Defense Field Extender I x 2 EHP - 21,701 Yield/hour = 82,020 m3 I think some peoples ideas regarding risk vs. reward are off. If you seriously can't be bothered to tank your ship and lose less than 1k m3/hour, you deserve to get ganked. "Miners mine so I don't have to." ~Metal Icarus
Ersahi Kir Freelance Mining Company 15	Posted - 2013.03.13 22:00:00 - [53] - Quote Another side question for you barely paying attention miners do you actually use strip miner II's? I always forget to change crystals when I'm barely paying attention mining so I stopped and just went back to the strip miner 1. I could see maybe if you were only mining one type of rock it may be worth while, but I just kind of mine everything within reach. I also don't have to pay attention to how many and of what type of crystals are in my hold.
Ditra Vorthran Caldari Imports and Exports 151	Posted - 2013.03.13 22:29:00 - [54] - Quote Ersahi Kir wrote: ...do you actually use strip miner II's? Well, taking the tank fit mack I list above, the difference is 5280 m3/hour between T1s and T2s. Considering the crystals break only once in a great while, I find the trade off between missing half a cycle due to a broken crystal vs. the yield return over time worth it. "Miners mine so I don't have to." ~Metal Icarus
Ersahi Kir Freelance Mining Company 15	Posted - 2013.03.13 22:44:00 - [55] - Quote Ditra Vorthran wrote: Ersahi Kir wrote: ...do you actually use strip miner II's? Well, taking the tank fit mack I list above, the difference is 5280 m3/hour between T1s and T2s. Considering the crystals break only once in a great while, I find the trade off between missing half a cycle due to a broken crystal vs. the yield return over time worth it. I guess that's a fair answer. Maybe it's just a difference for me using skiffs more than macks. With the 3x multiplier on strip miners I tend to pop rocks in 2 cycles, and I don't think most rocks are in the "if I had a tech 2 w/crystal I would pop in one cycle" range. Because the conversation is about barely paying attention mining it should be fairly obvious that I'm not short cycling strip miners. Guess that's something. The mack is definitely more efficient when you're paying attention, but the skiff is still better for picking up space chicks.
Ditra Vorthran Caldari Imports and Exports 151	Posted - 2013.03.13 23:21:00 - [56] - Quote Ersahi Kir wrote: With the 3x multiplier on strip miners I tend to pop rocks in 2 cycles, and I don't think most rocks are in the "if I had a tech 2 w/crystal I would pop in one cycle" range. Because the conversation is about barely paying attention mining it should be fairly obvious that I'm not short cycling strip miners. Guess that's something. The mack is definitely more efficient when you're paying attention The best ship for yeild is still the Hulk, but you'd better have hauler support with that because you're hold will fill up in about 2 cycles. And to be fair, hulks aren't that bad with a tank. Tank Fit Hulk EHP - 24,350 Yield - 86,940 m3/hour Tank Fit Mack EHP - 31,312 Yield/hour = 81,060 m3 Either of these ships would survive a slightly more than casual gank attempt, but the skiff is just a monster. Yield fit Skiff EHP - 82,721 Yield - 73,680 m3/hour And that's with a fit I threw together in about 2 minutes. It doesn't even have a Damage Control II on it. For the curious, a skiff with a DCII on it looks like this. Tank fit Skiff EHP - 105,059 Yield - 67,620 m3/hour Ersahi Kir wrote: but the skiff is still better for picking up space chicks. Is that a skiff in your hangar, or are you just happy to see me? "Miners mine so I don't have to." ~Metal Icarus
Ersahi Kir Freelance Mining Company 17	Posted - 2013.03.14 15:50:00 - [57] - Quote Ditra Vorthran wrote: The best ship for yeild is still the Hulk, but you'd better have hauler support with that because you're hold will fill up in about 2 cycles. And to be fair, hulks aren't that bad with a tank. Tank Fit Hulk EHP - 24,350 Yield - 86,940 m3/hour Tank Fit Mack EHP - 31,312 Yield/hour = 81,060 m3 Either of these ships would survive a slightly more than casual gank attempt, but the skiff is just a monster. Yield fit Skiff EHP - 82,721 Yield - 73,680 m3/hour And that's with a fit I threw together in about 2 minutes. It doesn't even have a Damage Control II on it. Something seems off here. The skiff has the same yield bonuses as the Mack, so if the mack is using one low for a DC II and the skiff isn't they should have the same yield (same ship bonuses + 2 MLU II's). This is the build I'm using for the skiff: Strip miner 1 Medium shield extender II Medium shield extender II Invurnability Field II EM Resistance Amplifier Thermal Resistance Amplifier MLU II MLU II Shield Extender Rig 1 Shield Extender Rig 1 EHP 78k You have to pretty much have max fitting skills to get this to fit, but that's not too hard for a miner. To fit a strip miner II you have to use a engineering implant, I think it was a 1%. You can go straight over into max ice yield ice mining with the exact same tank. Add it to the fleet with an orca with Shield Harmonizing gang link II (assuming 2 mining gang links and mining foreman mindlink) and the EHP goes up to 96k. Now that's some hefty beef in a mining fleet. And the skiff has the spinners, which is the kind of bling that the space chicks get all hot and bothered by. I would drop the numbers for a procurer and how beefy it is for a dirt cheap miner, but I can't remember what they were. I think it was ~44k for Yield lows/highs and tank mids, no rigs.
Lord Xelnoz Planetary Defense Coalition Phoenix Awakening 0	Posted - 2013.03.14 23:25:00 - [58] - Quote Practically new to Eve after a 3 year hiatus... I will try this fit and thanks for the info [Mackinaw, DERP TANK] Mining Laser Upgrade II Mining Laser Upgrade II Damage Control II Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Thermic Dissipation Amplifier II [empty med slot] [empty med slot] Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II Medium Core Defense Field Extender I Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Tauranon Weeesearch 136	Posted - 2013.03.15 00:59:00 - [59] - Quote Lord Xelnoz wrote: [empty med slot] [empty med slot] it fills its tank slots or it gets the hose again.
Haulie Berry 277	Posted - 2013.03.15 01:02:00 - [60] - Quote Lord Xelnoz wrote: Practically new to Eve after a 3 year hiatus... I will try this fit and thanks for the info [Mackinaw, DERP TANK] Mining Laser Upgrade II Mining Laser Upgrade II Damage Control II Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Thermic Dissipation Amplifier II [empty med slot] [empty med slot] Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II Medium Core Defense Field Extender I Medium Core Defense Field Extender I I don't mine (it's peasant work), but honestly? Use a retriever.

Lord Kronox State War Academy Caldari State 0	Posted - 2013.03.15 01:43:00 - [61] - Quote Haulie Berry wrote: Lord Xelnoz wrote: Practically new to Eve after a 3 year hiatus... I will try this fit and thanks for the info [Mackinaw, DERP TANK] Mining Laser Upgrade II Mining Laser Upgrade II Damage Control II Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Thermic Dissipation Amplifier II [empty med slot] [empty med slot] Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II Medium Core Defense Field Extender I Medium Core Defense Field Extender I I don't mine (it's peasant work), but honestly? Use a retriever. Doesn't a Mackinaw tank better than a retriever? (amongst other things) And my alt was CREATED for "peasent" work. It's just a cyno slave that mines on the side... that is the only reason for the account....
Haulie Berry 278	Posted - 2013.03.15 02:22:00 - [62] - Quote A mackinaw does tank better than a retriever, yes. Sort of. Technically. Not really in any meaningful way, though.
Lord Kronox State War Academy Caldari State 0	Posted - 2013.03.15 02:24:00 - [63] - Quote Since I am just using him to mine when he is doing nothing more useful... I suppose isk per hour is not really important to me with him... I will run it in the strongest tank I can fit in it.. hell maybe even go down to a skiff....
Petrified At River's Edge TOG - The Older Gamers Alliance 5	Posted - 2013.03.15 23:47:00 - [64] - Quote Sexy Cakes wrote: I ice mine next to about 100 other mackinaws. Thats why. Several typhoons smart bomb fit would have a hay day with that.
Lord Xelnoz Planetary Defense Coalition Phoenix Awakening 0	Posted - 2013.03.16 02:14:00 - [65] - Quote Went with a Procurer until I get the isk for a skiff. Here is the fit High: modulated strip miner II Medium: Medium shield booster II Invulnerability Field I EM shield resist I (passive) Thermal shield resist I (passive) Low: Damage control I Power Diagnostic System I Rigs: 3x Capacitor Control Circuit I This build nets me about 38,000 defensive points and is cap stable even with a medium shield booster. A much better tank than my pitiful previous Covetor.. but when I got it ganked I was not aware of the changes made to the mining barges... I always learn things the hard way I guess.....
Sabriz Adoudel Resurgent Threat 119	Posted - 2013.03.16 02:32:00 - [66] - Quote Speaking of bad tanks. Just came across an Orca with an anti-tank - three Cargo Expanders reducing structure EHP, a not turned on shield hardener and - wait for it - a Civilian Shield Booster 1. The Orca in question was, of course, put out of its misery. '... you cannot reason with the mining bots, you cannot negotiate with them, you can only bring them judgement in the form of Navy Antimatter, turn their Mackinaws to salvage and dust, smartbomb their pods, and burn their Mining Link implants with sweet incense...'- The Gospel according to St James 315
Ersahi Kir Freelance Mining Company 21	Posted - 2013.03.16 09:20:00 - [67] - Quote Lord Xelnoz wrote: Went with a Procurer until I get the isk for a skiff. Here is the fit High: modulated strip miner II Medium: Medium shield booster II Invulnerability Field I EM shield resist I (passive) Thermal shield resist I (passive) Low: Damage control I Power Diagnostic System I Rigs: 3x Capacitor Control Circuit I This build nets me about 38,000 defensive points and is cap stable even with a medium shield booster. A much better tank than my pitiful previous Covetor.. but when I got it ganked I was not aware of the changes made to the mining barges... I always learn things the hard way I guess..... Good sir I think you need some help. Having a medium shield booster isn't really much of a help against ganks because they don't last long enough. The only thing that's going to save you is to have as much hp as possible for them to chew through. Drop the medium shield booster II and replace it with a medium shield extender. If you want to keep the power diagnostic system it's not too bad because it does provide shield buffer and recharge, but the rigs absolutely have to go. Get some shield extender 1 rigs. Having 3 shield extender rigs will give you ~52% additional shield buffer between you and a gank. But lets look at why active tanking a procurer is a poor choice over buffer fitting it. The procurer has 6,000 hp's base, so if you add the 1050 for a medium shield extender II and 52% from the rigs you'll end up with 10716 base shield before resists. That extra shield would take 52.4 cycles to recover using your shield booster,which means the encounter would have to take over 2 minutes and 37 seconds for the shield booster to break even against the buffer tanks. Consider most ganks are done in under 20 seconds the benefit you're getting is slim. Something that I didn't figure in was that each level of mining barge gives the procurer an extra 5% shield per level, which means that as you train mining barge up the buffer tank becomes more efficient. With your current fit if you had 5 mining barge skill and 5 shield management skill you would have 9375 shields. If you used the 3 shield extender rigs and medium shield bosster you would have 16743, or a difference of 7368 shield. At the 90 hp/3 second rate of return on the medium shield booster an encounter would have to last just over 4 minutes before the booster beat the buffer tank. I applaud you on your choice of mining barge though. Once the shield booster is removed the ship is very cap stable even at low skill levels. Make sure to train for shield hardeners also though, when you move into the skiff you will need to have 2 shield resistance amps instead of the em/themal hardeners, along with some good fitting skills, to make it all fit. good luck
Katran Luftschreck Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps 1123	Posted - 2013.03.16 11:32:00 - [68] - Quote I'm not even going to tell you what my tank fitting is because ganktards read these posts and I feel no compulsion to make things any easier for them. EvE is like prison.-á It's a place when bad people go to learn how to become even worse people.
Dave Stark 2006	Posted - 2013.03.16 12:01:00 - [69] - Quote Sabriz Adoudel wrote: Speaking of bad tanks. Just came across an Orca with an anti-tank - three Cargo Expanders reducing structure EHP, a not turned on shield hardener and - wait for it - a Civilian Shield Booster 1. The Orca in question was, of course, put out of its misery. objection. orcas only have two low slots, so he wasn't fitting 3 cargo expanders. you're clearly a liar. Want miners to move from high sec to null sec? Then give them a reason to join player corps, and stop null sec grav sites being worth less isk/hour than high sec asteroid belts. Really isn't difficult.
Lord Xelnoz Planetary Defense Coalition Phoenix Awakening 0	Posted - 2013.03.17 04:38:00 - [70] - Quote Latest update... In a Skiff now with more resists and defensive points than my mains Apocolypse. 61,867 DHP It is also cap stable with a medium shield booster.... I don't think I will get ganked anytime too soon and If I do they will take a loss as it will take quite a few ships to bring me down before they get concorded.... Problem solved.

Tauranon Weeesearch 136	Posted - 2013.03.17 06:34:00 - [71] - Quote My alt runs 108k (lowest resist) on the skiff with 1 MLU, which is a bit above the trimarked 96k or so I get out of a megathron. I would say that 6 catalysts will bring you down, and that is close to what is regularly fielded, ie NOL manage a 5 man grouping most days - 61k is within the reach of a procurer too. There isn't any need/want to put a booster on a skiff - no belt npc grouping can push the shield below 99%, the booster only pays back for engagements (compared to an extender) that are longer than it takes for concord to show up.
Ersahi Kir Freelance Mining Company 25	Posted - 2013.03.17 07:33:00 - [72] - Quote Tauranon wrote: My alt runs 108k (lowest resist) on the skiff with 1 MLU, which is a bit above the trimarked 96k or so I get out of a megathron. I would say that 6 catalysts will bring you down, and that is close to what is regularly fielded, ie NOL manage a 5 man grouping most days - 61k is within the reach of a procurer too. There isn't any need/want to put a booster on a skiff - no belt npc grouping can push the shield below 99%, the booster only pays back for engagements (compared to an extender) that are longer than it takes for concord to show up. I'm not exactly sure if he's a troll or not. He's playing it just dumb enough to hook people if he is, otherwise he's just really oblivious and doesn't know how to fit ships. I'll have to play with eft some more and see how much ehp I can actually get on a skiff using only reasonable items (Tech 2 mod, tech 1 rigs). I figure I'm pretty close as is, but if I removed the two MLU's for a damage control 2 and either reinforced bulkhead 2 or power diagnostic system 2 I may be able to squeek out a few more ehp. I wonder if it's close enough that it could swap when I include a shield harmonizing gang link II. More just to play around than to actually use. I figure if they're dedicated enough to pop a 96k skiff they're dedicated enough to pop a 108k. Probably not dedicated enough to pop a cheaply fit buffer fit procurer though, those just aren't sexy to splode and they don't really put the person back any significant amount.
Bethan Le Troix Krusual Investigation Agency 4	Posted - 2013.03.17 11:25:00 - [73] - Quote As a general rule you will mainly get suicide ganked if you have fitted an ineffective tank eg NO DC II and a civilian shield booster and small extender etc. Expect to be ship scanned, and if your tank leaves much to be desired, to be turned into scrap metal and maybe get podded on top! It's not difficult. You can still fit an MLU and have enough tank but don't go over the top on yield if you're flying a Hulk or Mackinaw. If you're flying a Retriever it's less likely for someone except learner gankers to want to gank you as it doesn't look that good on a killboard. So with a bit of due care as to location and an eye on 'local' you can fly with an excessive yield fitting in a Retriever. Fly safe,
Tesco Ergo Sum Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 0	Posted - 2013.03.17 16:06:00 - [74] - Quote Lord Xelnoz wrote: Went with a Procurer until I get the isk for a skiff. Here is the fit High: modulated strip miner II Medium: Medium shield booster II Invulnerability Field I EM shield resist I (passive) Thermal shield resist I (passive) Low: Damage control I Power Diagnostic System I Rigs: 3x Capacitor Control Circuit I This build nets me about 38,000 defensive points and is cap stable even with a medium shield booster. A much better tank than my pitiful previous Covetor.. but when I got it ganked I was not aware of the changes made to the mining barges... I always learn things the hard way I guess..... 71K EHP, always have the ECM drones out and bring out DPS/Salv drones as required. Swap out the scanner for a passive Thermal if you need more tank (78K EHP with a Thermic Dissipation Field II instead of the Survey Scanner) [Procurer, HiSec tank2] Damage Control I Power Diagnostic System II Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Medium Shield Extender II Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Survey Scanner II Modulated Strip Miner II, Scordite Mining Crystal II Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I Medium Core Defense Field Extender I Medium Core Defense Field Extender I Hornet EC-300 x1 Hornet EC-300 x1 Hornet EC-300 x1 Warrior II x1 Salvage Drone I x1
Lord Xelnoz Planetary Defense Coalition Phoenix Awakening 0	Posted - 2013.03.17 16:40:00 - [75] - Quote Nope I'm not a troll just been away from the game for a while and occasionally fail to read all forum posts before I act.... sorry. That being said I get it.... make the skiff a passive shield tank... kinda like a Nighthawk... drop the CCC rigs put in shield extenders and drop the medium booster and replace with a medium shield extender... Makes sense and I won't have to worry about needing to activate a booster which makes sense for a semi afk miner that is used while missioning or otherwise with my main.
Ersahi Kir Freelance Mining Company 26	Posted - 2013.03.17 23:36:00 - [76] - Quote Lord Xelnoz wrote: Nope I'm not a troll just been away from the game for a while and occasionally fail to read all forum posts before I act.... sorry. That being said I get it.... make the skiff a passive shield tank... kinda like a Nighthawk... drop the CCC rigs put in shield extenders and drop the medium booster and replace with a medium shield extender... Makes sense and I won't have to worry about needing to activate a booster which makes sense for a semi afk miner that is used while missioning or otherwise with my main. atta-boy /this must be how smokey the bear feels when people don't burn down the forest
Carniflex StarHunt 72	Posted - 2013.03.18 08:01:00 - [77] - Quote Speaking about Skiff vs Procurer. The main advantage skiff has is speed. EHP wise they end up roughly the same and the 3 000 m3 more space is not really meaningful in my opinion so they both are pretty tight ore bay wise. So if you are already going for the Skiff then use that speed advantage - it will help you more than few k of extra ehp will. So fit a powergrid rig and put 10 MN afterburner on it - orbiting a rock at ~600 m/s will make you harder to gank than the extra ehp from a shield extender rig do. Not to mention it will make you exceptionally hard to bump in any meaningful way. Here, sanity... niiiice sanity, come to daddy... okay, that's a good sanity... THWONK! GOT the bastard.
Velicitia Arma Artificer 1253	Posted - 2013.03.18 15:14:00 - [78] - Quote Dave Stark wrote: Sabriz Adoudel wrote: Speaking of bad tanks. Just came across an Orca with an anti-tank - three Cargo Expanders reducing structure EHP, a not turned on shield hardener and - wait for it - a Civilian Shield Booster 1. The Orca in question was, of course, put out of its misery. objection. orcas only have two low slots, so he wasn't fitting 3 cargo expanders. you're clearly a liar. 3 rig slots, and enough calibration for 3x cargohold optimization (tho that decreases hurts armor and not hull...) One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia Malcanis for CSM8
Dave Stark 2047	Posted - 2013.03.18 16:45:00 - [79] - Quote Velicitia wrote: Dave Stark wrote: Sabriz Adoudel wrote: Speaking of bad tanks. Just came across an Orca with an anti-tank - three Cargo Expanders reducing structure EHP, a not turned on shield hardener and - wait for it - a Civilian Shield Booster 1. The Orca in question was, of course, put out of its misery. objection. orcas only have two low slots, so he wasn't fitting 3 cargo expanders. you're clearly a liar. 3 rig slots, and enough calibration for 3x cargohold optimization (tho that decreases hurts armor and not hull...) that's not a cargo expander, that's cargo rigs. expanders are low slot modules. also, cargo rigs give an armour penalty which is negligible at best, on an orca, even a cargo rigged orca can hit 230k+ ehp. Want miners to move from high sec to null sec? Then give them a reason to join player corps, and stop null sec grav sites being worth less isk/hour than high sec asteroid belts. Really isn't difficult.
Lord Xelnoz Planetary Defense Coalition Phoenix Awakening 0	Posted - 2013.03.18 23:17:00 - [80] - Quote With the passive tank fit my EHP in the skiff is around 89,000. I should rename my skiff "GANK THIS SUCKA!" LOL.... Although if I do that I may end up drawing too much attention.... So I will keep its current name of "Dig Dig". Cool thing about the skiff is not only does it have double the cargo space of a covetor, but it flies at 230 mps without an afterburner and gets a 200% bonus to its mining laser... It's single laser can pull as much as the three lasers on the Hulk.... granted you have to manually cycle them occasionally to avoid wasteing time as it pops a single roid very quickly. Also if you want to mine roids that are different you have to change crystals instead of putting three different crystals in three different strip miners... All tradoffs well worth it as an alt-tab miner......... The survivability is most excellent.....

Desivo Delta Visseroff Hybrid Flare strange tactical and research syndicate 0	Posted - 2013.03.21 14:17:00 - [81] - Quote I will never understand why some people leave empty LOW slots..... Here's an Idea. If you're fitting is tight from your mids and highs, fit a PDUII It's one of the best Low Slot modules out there. Fitting CPU usage 20 tf Shield Shield recharge rate bonus 8.5 % Shield HP bonus 5 % Capacitor Capacitor recharge rate bonus 8.5 % Capacitor bonus 5 % Miscellaneous Powergrid bonus 5 %
Inkarr Hashur Sine Nobilitatis 270	Posted - 2013.03.21 15:08:00 - [82] - Quote Desivo Delta Visseroff wrote: I will never understand why some people leave empty LOW slots..... Here's an Idea. If you're fitting is tight from your mids and highs, fit a PDUII It's one of the best Low Slot modules out there. Fitting CPU usage 20 tf Shield Shield recharge rate bonus 8.5 % Shield HP bonus 5 % Capacitor Capacitor recharge rate bonus 8.5 % Capacitor bonus 5 % Miscellaneous Powergrid bonus 5 % Mining ships are tight on CPU, not powergrid, and they generally get no benefit from shield recharge nor capacitor.
Velicitia Arma Artificer 1273	Posted - 2013.03.21 15:26:00 - [83] - Quote Dave Stark wrote: Velicitia wrote: 3 rig slots, and enough calibration for 3x cargohold optimization (tho that decreases hurts armor and not hull...) that's not a cargo expander, that's cargo rigs. expanders are low slot modules. also, cargo rigs give an armour penalty which is negligible at best, on an orca, even a cargo rigged orca can hit 230k+ ehp. uh, yeah ... I get that part ... my point was "maybe the guy said Cargo Expanders" and meant "Cargohold Optimization" (and obviously, applied the wrong penalty for said rig). One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia Malcanis for CSM8


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