I disagree that this is valid gameplay

In trade window scams, it is the fault of the "victim" that clicks on accept without triple-checking
In contract scams, it's the fault of the "victim" that does not read what he or she buys very carefully
In isk doubling scams, it's the fault of the "victim" that believes people throw away isk just like that

. If it was a matter of a screw up

From the perspective of the scammer, he or she has absolutely nothing to lose.

I believe very strongly that this type of scam needs to be put to rest.

Yes, ignorance is no excuse, but people who get scammed via margin trading for example simply buy a product from station X to re-sell to station Y. This is no greed - it's a profession.

Just chiming in here, because what you describe is what I actually do ingame. And I have never fallen for a magin-trading-scam.

With experience you get to know your 'usual suspects' - the stuff that is cheap in X and sells well in Y. Whenever something unusual pops up on the market (incredibly cheap deadspace/faction/officer modules or discontiued collectors items or whatever) I check the market in the designation region. How has the price developed over the last few weeks/months? How many items are traded on a daily basis? If it looks odd (and too good to be true)... you know the drill.

And before someone yells 'Think of the newbies!!oneelven' at me - newbies usually don't have enough capital to even buy the scammed goods....

In trade window scams, it is the fault of the "victim" that clicks on accept without triple-checking
In contract scams, it's the fault of the "victim" that does not read what he or she buys very carefully
In isk doubling scams, it's the fault of the "victim" that believes people throw away isk just like that

But in margin trading scams, one can not possibly know that the game mechanics are not being abused. And I am obviously not referring to sell order that are 5-10x above ordinary orders.

I used to be a dragon, but then I took an arrow to the knee... :D

Yes, ignorance is no excuse, but people who get scammed via margin trading for example simply buy a product from station X to re-sell to station Y. This is no greed - it's a profession.

On the other side of the scale, scammers use multiple expandable pilots (and perhaps also accounts) with the intent to scam, and abuse a skill which allows downpayment of a fraction of the final cost of their sell orders. They also proceed to biomass the pilots involved as soon as they start getting heat.

Sure, scammers gonna scam, but that level of abuse of the game mechanics is gone too far.

And if you're so bad at that profession that you don't bother trying to get a decent price on your purchases, you're going to lose money..

Exactly.

I do wonder why that's hard to accept for some people. Maybe it's just me and my aversion to excuse making.

No, it really isn't. Categorising playing a game in accordance with its rules as GÇ£not saneGÇ¥ or GÇ£antisocialGÇ¥ is the last bastion of having no reasonable point at all.

I have some fresh news for you... feelings are the same playing as in RL. That's the whole point in playing, btw; as playing allows us to experience real feelings in a controlled, non-real environment.

And as the feelings are the same, when you scam in game, your feelings are the same as if you were scamming in RL. You just bet that the consequences would be what the game allow (none), and not what would be those in RL.

But also the victim's negative feelings are the same. And there the line becomes blurrier.

The "joy of misbehave" is hard to carry into RL, but the "pain of victim" is way easier to carry along. People continuously makes RL decissions (like unsubbing) over their feelings about ingame events.

You need to stop playing video games if you take them THAT seriously. I'm not trying to joke I'm serious.

Heh, why do you think that you enjoy fiction? Because you light up a special set of "fiction feelings" or because it triggers real feelings on you?

It works the same for pleasure as for pain. You enjoy EVE because of the real feelings it allows you to experience, but it also will hurt you with real feelings.

And in that case, EVE does not provide any escape mechanism, which is not a sensible thing to do.

You just openly admitted that you tried to get greedy and exploit someone for fast easy profit and it didn't pay off.

Instead, it backfired on you and put you out of pocket. These things happen, you dust yourself off and keep moving.

Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. You just have to remember that somewhere out there in New Eden, there's always someone smarter, more persuasive, more manipulative, or sometimes just more outright lucky than you.

Roll the dice, don't think twice. This is the way of things.

Welcome to EVE.

This is why, despite the fact that I play this game, I will be totally delighted to watch the whole company go up in flames.

This is why, despite the fact that I play this game, I will be totally delighted to watch the whole company go up in flames.

On topic, my objection and reference to double standards is because CCP tends to downplay all scams (margin trading, isk doubling etc.) for the expense of the victim and never for the scammer.

You raised a crucial point with regards to whining: Scammers don't whine because (a) they know they are abusing the game mechanics in the first place, and (b) they can easily biomass their pilots and start a fresh, zero history trader/isk doubler.

Frankly I don't see how the mechanic adds anything beneficial to the game as a whole.

Eh... I think the biggest problem people have with the Margin Trade scam is that there is no risk or adverse effect for the scammer. You just train a skill, set your obscure buy/sell orders, and then the trick itself is hidden within mechanics of the game. So it's not recognizable unless you are familiar with the scam. Frankly I don't see how the mechanic adds anything beneficial to the game as a whole. All I see it doing is screwing over new players and making them ragequit. Cuz let's face it, they are the only ones who are gonna fall for it. And that seems a bit counter-productive.

I have some fresh news for you... feelings are the same playing as in RL. That's the whole point in playing, btw; as playing allows us to experience real feelings in a controlled, non-real environment.

And as the feelings are the same, when you scam in game, your feelings are the same as if you were scamming in RL. You just bet that the consequences would be what the game allow (none), and not what would be those in RL.

But also the victim's negative feelings are the same. And there the line becomes blurrier.

The "joy of misbehave" is hard to carry into RL, but the "pain of victim" is way easier to carry along. People continuously makes RL decissions (like unsubbing) over their feelings about ingame events.

If someone quits playing chess because you take their queen (an element of legal gameplay), do you blame the person who took the queen, the game of chess itself, or do you conclude that the person who quit massively overreacted to a normal part of the game they chose to play.

Oh, and what does sociopathy have to do with anything? Don't tell me you're one of those mentally unstable people who can't separate fantasy from realityGǪ?

All I see it doing is screwing over new players and making them ragequit. Cuz let's face it, they are the only ones who are gonna fall for it.

Eh... I think the biggest problem people have with the Margin Trade scam is that there is no risk or adverse effect for the scammer.

Frankly I don't see how the mechanic adds anything beneficial to the game as a whole.

It's not without risk. You can mess up when you set it up. You can mess up your wallets. Someone can fill your buy orders with stock from somewhere else, it will fail obviously but you lose your taxes and fees (which add up when you run a multi billion scam).

Margin Trading itself is an extremely important skill for legit trading as it allows traders to stay liquid.

This is why, despite the fact that I play this game, I will be totally delighted to watch the whole company go up in flames.