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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Xen Solarus
Inner 5phere
297
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Posted - 2013.03.07 07:18:00 -
[31] - Quote
I've always hated this scam. Tho never a victim of it myself, its one of the ones that can effect newer players, and there's little chance of spotting it unless someone has already informed them about it. Like you mentioned, it can hurt your trust in the very market system itself, which is never a good thing.
That being said, EvE is a harsh and unforgiving mistress. Like the many things that can happen that can lower your spirit, its best to mark them up as lessons, and move on. I'm sure they'll be many more to come if you decide to keep playing. Each will leave you poorer in your wallet, but richer in experience. You'll be able to hold your head high, and say "Well, i'm not going to do that again!"
Plus I sent you some isk to help you on your travels! 
Post with your main, like a BOSS! |
Zheketri
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
15
|
Posted - 2013.03.07 09:29:00 -
[32] - Quote
Xen Solarus wrote:I've always hated this scam. Tho never a victim of it myself, its one of the ones that can effect newer players, and there's little chance of spotting it unless someone has already informed them about it. Like you mentioned, it can hurt your trust in the very market system itself, which is never a good thing. That being said, EvE is a harsh and unforgiving mistress. Like the many things that can happen that can lower your spirit, its best to mark them up as lessons, and move on. I'm sure they'll be many more to come if you decide to keep playing. Each will leave you poorer in your wallet, but richer in experience. You'll be able to hold your head high, and say "Well, i'm not going to do that again!" Plus I sent you some isk to help you on your travels!
Have you considered that the "sob story" in a much older scam than the margin trading scam?
"Once you have taken his place, have you then defeated your enemy?" |
Benny Ohu
Chaotic Tranquility
Casoff
875
|
Posted - 2013.03.07 09:41:00 -
[33] - Quote
Newbie Benny saw a guy selling a contract with a strange item that sold for billions in the market. It was pretty obviously a scam of some kind (I mean come on), so I went to another hub, bought the item for a thousand ISK, hauled it back and tried to sell it to the buy order. Loss of a few million ISK tops for not being stupid.
The margin trading scam doesn't harm newbies any more than it does older players. It only gets greedy people, young and old. It's not hard for a newbie to spot it as a scam - it's damn obvious |
Tub Chil
Last Men Standing
35
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Posted - 2013.03.07 09:46:00 -
[34] - Quote
didn't read the wall of text but margin trading is a flawed feature and needs to go.
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Sidrat Flush
The Praxis Initiative
Gentlemen's Agreement
128
|
Posted - 2013.03.07 09:53:00 -
[35] - Quote
Where's the profit?
The new home of the Eve Industrial Organiser is here. Enjoy the first in a series, EIO:Refinery now
http://www.eve-files.com/media/corp/Sidrat/
Read about it http://eveindustrialorganiser.blogspot.co.uk/?m=0 |
Sarah Schneider
PonyWaffe
Test Alliance Please Ignore
1886
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Posted - 2013.03.07 10:27:00 -
[36] - Quote
Jonathon Oday wrote:Interestingly no mention made of the ethics of the scammer. Just the, undoubted, naivety of the buyer.
I'm going to say this nice and slow...
EVE
is
a
game.
"I'd rather have other players-áget shot by other players than not interacting with others" -CCP Soundwave |
Ifly Uwalk
Empire Tax Collection Agency
590
|
Posted - 2013.03.07 10:42:00 -
[37] - Quote
Sarah Schneider wrote:Jonathon Oday wrote:Interestingly no mention made of the ethics of the scammer. Just the, undoubted, naivety of the buyer. I'm going to say this nice and slow... EVE is a game.
You can spread that out over the entire page - some psychos will never be able to differentiate between reality and alternity. |
Portia Venetia
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
5
|
Posted - 2013.03.07 14:16:00 -
[38] - Quote
Generally I agree with the sentiment that most scams in EVE are "legitimate" and every buyer should beware. The Margin Trading scam is the only one that I feel is unbalanced far in favor of the perpetrator over the mark, and that the fault lies mostly with CCP.
First and foremost, as has been mentioned here, this scam is perpetrated in what is supposedly a broker-operated commodity marketplace. The impression is given, particularly to the new player, that the market may not offer the best "deals" but is a forum for open and transparent transactions, unlike the wild and woolier contracts or direct trades.
Building on that point, many people likely approach EVE with some working knowledge of trading on commodities/securities markets. But as just about anyone here knows at this point, there is a distinct and profound disconnect between what "Margin Trading" is in EVE versus the traditionally accepted definition of that activity in any other market. Buying on margin is a well established practice in RL markets, and at least in every trading system I've ever seen has this in common: a buy order that is filled will be completed. It will always be the buyer and not the seller that is on the hook for a margin call.
EVE, of course, works completely in reverse. When the margin is called and the buyer comes up short, the seller is left holding the bag (of unsaleable goods).
I would personally like to see "Margin Trading" in EVE aligned with what trading on margin actually is; if you overreach with a buy order and it is filled, then tough luck Charlie you now owe a pile of money to the brokerage. This however will result in negative wallet balances which everyone screams is "completely unfair."
At the very least, it would be nice that "unbacked" buy orders (those buy orders that cannot be completely filled) were highlighted in red text in the market; it would give a clear indication that something was up instead of the (relatively) invisible nature of this scam now. |
Purity
Pure Designs
9
|
Posted - 2013.03.07 14:29:00 -
[39] - Quote
This is clearly a stealth begging post.
You made a mistake. We've all done it. But understand that it was your mistake, no-one else's. It was you who invested all your isk into one trade. it was you who were so blinded by greed that you failed to look at the situation rationally and ask questions such as "why are there so many of these items for sale at the higher prices?" It was also you who failed to search the web for any clues as to whether this was a scam or not.
Dust your self off and start again. This will not be the worst thing that happens to you in Eve.
IF you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you,
If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you,
But make allowance for their doubting too;
If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,
Or being lied about, don't deal in lies,
Or being hated, don't give way to hating,
And yet don't look too good, nor talk too wise:
If you can dream - and not make dreams your master;
If you can think - and not make thoughts your aim;
If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
And treat those two impostors just the same;
If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
Or watch the things you gave your life to, broken,
And stoop and build 'em up with worn-out tools:
If you can make one heap of all your winnings
And risk it on one turn of pitch-and-toss,
And lose, and start again at your beginnings
And never breathe a word about your loss;
If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew
To serve your turn long after they are gone,
And so hold on when there is nothing in you
Except the Will which says to them: 'Hold on!'
If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue,
' Or walk with Kings - nor lose the common touch,
if neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you,
If all men count with you, but none too much;
If you can fill the unforgiving minute
With sixty seconds' worth of distance run,
Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it,
And - which is more - you'll be a Man, my son!
|
Cebraio
4S Corporation
RAZOR Alliance
265
|
Posted - 2013.03.07 14:39:00 -
[40] - Quote
Tub Chil wrote:didn't read the wall of text but margin trading is a flawed feature and needs to go.
Didn't read the wall of text, but greed is a flawed attribute and needs to go. |
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Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
1866
|
Posted - 2013.03.07 16:34:00 -
[41] - Quote
A couple points to add to the discussion:
1.) CCP's market tutorial (if there even is one) should explain that buy orders are NOT guaranteed.... This information should not be some secret learned only upon the loss of goods.
2.) The Market should NEVER automatically create a sell order from a failed buy order.... This auto-create a sell order is a TERRIBLE mechanic, and should be removed.
If CCP can manage to do points 1 & 2 above, then margin trade scams are 100% inline with the ambiance of EvE.... I think negating them, especially point 1, is failing on CCP's part.
PS: sometimes you can petition the "sell order" that was created to get your broker fees back... but it's not a guarantee... |
Cebraio
4S Corporation
RAZOR Alliance
265
|
Posted - 2013.03.07 17:03:00 -
[42] - Quote
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
A couple points to add to the discussion:
1.) CCP's market tutorial (if there even is one) should explain that buy orders are NOT guaranteed.... This information should not be some secret learned only upon the loss of goods.
2.) The Market should NEVER automatically create a sell order from a failed buy order.... This auto-create a sell order is a TERRIBLE mechanic, and should be removed.
If CCP can manage to do points 1 & 2 above, then margin trade scams are 100% inline with the ambiance of EvE.... I think negating them, especially point 1, is failing on CCP's part.
PS: sometimes you can petition the "sell order" that was created to get your broker fees back... but it's not a guarantee...
1.) They do not lose goods, they just can't sell them at the price they had expected. (I agree it could be advertised more clearly that buy orders are not guaranteed.)
2.) There is no sell order created automatically by a failed buy order. The seller may get the option to create one and then he may create a sell order, if he is too busy pushing buttons and doesn't read. That's again his fault if it happens. Rushing trades is never a good idea.
Here is margin trading scam explained. For the scammer it works without part 2:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=18942 |
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
1866
|
Posted - 2013.03.07 17:27:00 -
[43] - Quote
Cebraio wrote:Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
A couple points to add to the discussion:
1.) CCP's market tutorial (if there even is one) should explain that buy orders are NOT guaranteed.... This information should not be some secret learned only upon the loss of goods.
2.) The Market should NEVER automatically create a sell order from a failed buy order.... This auto-create a sell order is a TERRIBLE mechanic, and should be removed.
If CCP can manage to do points 1 & 2 above, then margin trade scams are 100% inline with the ambiance of EvE.... I think negating them, especially point 1, is failing on CCP's part.
PS: sometimes you can petition the "sell order" that was created to get your broker fees back... but it's not a guarantee...
1.) They do not lose goods, they just can't sell them at the price they had expected. (I agree it could be advertised more clearly that buy orders are not guaranteed.) 2.) There is no sell order created automatically by a failed buy order. The seller may get the option to create one and then he may create a sell order, if he is too busy pushing buttons and doesn't read. That's again his fault if it happens. Rushing trades is never a good idea. Here is margin trading scam explained. For the scammer it works without part 2: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=18942
1.) I was just asking the information to be more clearly advertised.... Pilots often don't learn until they lose isk, not goods as I mentioned...
2.) It used to "auto-create" the sell order.... Did this finally get changed into an "option"? |
Sentamon
739
|
Posted - 2013.03.07 18:08:00 -
[44] - Quote
Real life scams are far worse then any eve scams.
HTFU
~ Professional Forum Alt -á~ |
Maarh Airuta
State War Academy
Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2013.03.07 18:12:00 -
[45] - Quote
I wonder how much easy-greedy ISK this thread generated for the OP. 
But that said, I don't think the game would somehow becomes a lesser thing if CCP explicitly informed new players how buy orders work. Gotchas make for lazy game design. |
Sivren Ravenwood
Mandalorian Acquisitions
The Gallows Alliance
16
|
Posted - 2013.03.07 19:47:00 -
[46] - Quote
If it looks like it is gona be easy ISK then its a scam. The only easy isk on eve is ice minning but unless you put alot into training you are only gona make about 2.5 mill and that is pushing it in highsec. Veld will get you about 4mill. BUt the market is no broken my friend makes bank on the market and if I was not lazy I could to. |
RubyPorto
SniggWaffe
YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
2923
|
Posted - 2013.03.07 20:07:00 -
[47] - Quote
Jonathon Oday wrote:I can answer that:-
"This is too good to be true"
There's an old saying, "You can't con an honest man." Similarly, you can only con a greedy one.
Quote:Interestingly no mention made of the ethics of the scammer. Just the, undoubted, naivety of the buyer.
There's also no mention made of the ethics of the guy who tricked me into losing a bishop in my last chess game.
Quote:Never mind, lesson learned and perhaps my trivial experience may serve as a cautionary tale to others? No, I hear you, probably not.
Since there are posts like these on a weekly basis (just like the "Goonswarm scammed me" posts), I doubt it.
This is EVE - Everybody Versus Everybody.
"the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP)." -CCP Solomon |
0wl
Pocket Pirates
24
|
Posted - 2013.03.07 20:13:00 -
[48] - Quote
Was it one of mine? :] |
0wl
Pocket Pirates
24
|
Posted - 2013.03.07 20:16:00 -
[49] - Quote
I'll also drop this tit bit of information, margin trading is also dangerous to the person placing the buy order, it IS possible to get that order to go through and release the equity in it... However I shall not go into the details. |
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
1868
|
Posted - 2013.03.07 20:42:00 -
[50] - Quote
0wl wrote:I'll also drop this tit bit of information, margin trading is also dangerous to the person placing the buy order, it IS possible to get that order to go through and release the equity in it... However I shall not go into the details.
If the margin trade scammer doesn't know what he's doing... otherwise I'm pretty sure they are safe... |
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Wyke Mossari
Staner Industries
443
|
Posted - 2013.03.07 20:45:00 -
[51] - Quote
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
2.) The Market should NEVER automatically create a sell order from a failed buy order.... This auto-create a sell order is a TERRIBLE mechanic, and should be removed.
Wrong: It doesn't. This is another failure on the OP and your part to understand the difference between Simple and Advanced trades.
PI Profitability spreadsheet
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0wl
Pocket Pirates
24
|
Posted - 2013.03.07 20:49:00 -
[52] - Quote
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:0wl wrote:I'll also drop this tit bit of information, margin trading is also dangerous to the person placing the buy order, it IS possible to get that order to go through and release the equity in it... However I shall not go into the details. If the margin trade scammer doesn't know what he's doing... otherwise I'm pretty sure they are safe...
Guess what skippy ... they're not ;)
2013.03.04 11:36 Kaikka's Modified Explosive Deflection Amplifier90,000,000 ISK4-360,000,000 ISKISK*****Amarr VIII (Oris) - Emperor Family Academy
That's a buy order for 4 with a minimum volume of 4. No ISK was on the character and the buy order was roughly 600mil for each. The equity was released. |
Destination SkillQueue
Are We There Yet
4735
|
Posted - 2013.03.07 20:59:00 -
[53] - Quote
0wl wrote:Gizznitt Malikite wrote:0wl wrote:I'll also drop this tit bit of information, margin trading is also dangerous to the person placing the buy order, it IS possible to get that order to go through and release the equity in it... However I shall not go into the details. If the margin trade scammer doesn't know what he's doing... otherwise I'm pretty sure they are safe... Guess what skippy ... they're not ;) 2013.03.04 11:36 Kaikka's Modified Explosive Deflection Amplifier90,000,000 ISK4-360,000,000 ISKISK*****Amarr VIII (Oris) - Emperor Family Academy That's a buy order for 4 with a minimum volume of 4. No ISK was on the character and the buy order was roughly 600mil for each. The equity was released.
Maybe he knew the character who owned the order. That would allow him to force a fulfilment of the order. |
0wl
Pocket Pirates
24
|
Posted - 2013.03.07 21:00:00 -
[54] - Quote
Destination SkillQueue wrote:0wl wrote:Gizznitt Malikite wrote:0wl wrote:I'll also drop this tit bit of information, margin trading is also dangerous to the person placing the buy order, it IS possible to get that order to go through and release the equity in it... However I shall not go into the details. If the margin trade scammer doesn't know what he's doing... otherwise I'm pretty sure they are safe... Guess what skippy ... they're not ;) 2013.03.04 11:36 Kaikka's Modified Explosive Deflection Amplifier90,000,000 ISK4-360,000,000 ISKISK*****Amarr VIII (Oris) - Emperor Family Academy That's a buy order for 4 with a minimum volume of 4. No ISK was on the character and the buy order was roughly 600mil for each. The equity was released. Maybe he knew the character who owned the order. That would allow him to force a fulfilment of the order.
I'm afraid not, the character in question is silent. |
K'rul Demelain
Relentl.us
The Rieos Coalition
0
|
Posted - 2013.03.07 21:19:00 -
[55] - Quote
Jonathon Oday wrote:Interestingly no mention made of the ethics of the scammer. Just the, undoubted, naivety of the buyer.
If you want to see his ethics just look in the mirror, they're exactly the same as your ethics in the matter. You thought you could make a quick buck off someone's stupidly placed buy order and had no qualms about taking that advantage. Now you cry and say it is not fair he took advantage of your greed or ignorance. |
0wl
Pocket Pirates
24
|
Posted - 2013.03.07 21:29:00 -
[56] - Quote
K'rul Demelain wrote:Jonathon Oday wrote:Interestingly no mention made of the ethics of the scammer. Just the, undoubted, naivety of the buyer. If you want to see his ethics just look in the mirror, they're exactly the same as your ethics in the matter. You thought you could make a quick buck off someone's stupidly placed buy order and had no qualms about taking that advantage. Now you cry and say it is not fair he took advantage of your greed or ignorance.
+1 If someone convos my character and says "Hey you could just sell that on the market" I tell them what it is, it's the greedy that feed this scam ... Space Monopoly, the best edition. |
RubyPorto
SniggWaffe
YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
2923
|
Posted - 2013.03.07 22:29:00 -
[57] - Quote
0wl wrote:Gizznitt Malikite wrote:0wl wrote:I'll also drop this tit bit of information, margin trading is also dangerous to the person placing the buy order, it IS possible to get that order to go through and release the equity in it... However I shall not go into the details. If the margin trade scammer doesn't know what he's doing... otherwise I'm pretty sure they are safe... Guess what skippy ... they're not ;) 2013.03.04 11:36 Kaikka's Modified Explosive Deflection Amplifier90,000,000 ISK4-360,000,000 ISKISK*****Amarr VIII (Oris) - Emperor Family Academy That's a buy order for 4 with a minimum volume of 4. No ISK was on the character and the buy order was roughly 600mil for each. The equity was released.
So... you're saying that you don't know how to drain your own escrow?
(Make an order for 8, Min 4, sell yourself 4 at a total price of the escrow and you end up with an order for 4, min 4, and 0 ISK in Escrow.)
This is EVE - Everybody Versus Everybody.
"the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP)." -CCP Solomon |
Setaceous
Nexus Prima
9
|
Posted - 2013.03.07 23:33:00 -
[58] - Quote
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:0wl wrote:I'll also drop this tit bit of information, margin trading is also dangerous to the person placing the buy order, it IS possible to get that order to go through and release the equity in it... However I shall not go into the details. If the margin trade scammer doesn't know what he's doing... otherwise I'm pretty sure they are safe...
There's a few that don't. I take advantage of them until they learn. |
0wl
Pocket Pirates
25
|
Posted - 2013.03.07 23:37:00 -
[59] - Quote
RubyPorto wrote:0wl wrote:Gizznitt Malikite wrote:0wl wrote:I'll also drop this tit bit of information, margin trading is also dangerous to the person placing the buy order, it IS possible to get that order to go through and release the equity in it... However I shall not go into the details. If the margin trade scammer doesn't know what he's doing... otherwise I'm pretty sure they are safe... Guess what skippy ... they're not ;) 2013.03.04 11:36 Kaikka's Modified Explosive Deflection Amplifier90,000,000 ISK4-360,000,000 ISKISK*****Amarr VIII (Oris) - Emperor Family Academy That's a buy order for 4 with a minimum volume of 4. No ISK was on the character and the buy order was roughly 600mil for each. The equity was released. So... you're saying that you don't know how to drain your own escrow? (Make an order for 8, Min 4, sell yourself 4 at a total price of the escrow and you end up with an order for 4, min 4, and 0 ISK in Escrow.)
Nope, didn't know that. Genius. 7 years in and still learning new things. Eve <3 |
flakeys
Arkham Innovations
Paper Tiger Coalition
882
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 15:00:00 -
[60] - Quote
0wl wrote:Destination SkillQueue wrote:0wl wrote:Gizznitt Malikite wrote:0wl wrote:I'll also drop this tit bit of information, margin trading is also dangerous to the person placing the buy order, it IS possible to get that order to go through and release the equity in it... However I shall not go into the details. If the margin trade scammer doesn't know what he's doing... otherwise I'm pretty sure they are safe... Guess what skippy ... they're not ;) 2013.03.04 11:36 Kaikka's Modified Explosive Deflection Amplifier90,000,000 ISK4-360,000,000 ISKISK*****Amarr VIII (Oris) - Emperor Family Academy That's a buy order for 4 with a minimum volume of 4. No ISK was on the character and the buy order was roughly 600mil for each. The equity was released. Maybe he knew the character who owned the order. That would allow him to force a fulfilment of the order. I'm afraid not, the character in question is silent.
If you can find the goods cheaper elsewhere you can calculate how much isk he had to put into escrow with margin at level V.As such you can sell the items for the price that IS placed in escrow.In short sell way below his buy order ... but then the item bought offcourse also needs to be tons cheaper wich is usually is though.
A better idea is to find the items and list them yourself below his.In theory this way you are not scamming so for those 'tender souls' like me perfectly fine and you can make a nice amount of isk .
We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid.
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