EVE Search - Ideas for Improving the Economy in EVE

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Trixxy	Posted - 2003.07.23 11:34:00 - [1] Edited by: Trixxy on 23/07/2003 11:35:40 Basic Assumption of the Problem: You have an unlimited, cost-free (in-game) supply of raw material in the game, but you have a limited and even progressively decreasing demand. Justification: On the supply side... Any player starting off in Eve has the ability to mine. Mining costs nothing in the game. It takes the player's time, but this is not an in-game cost. Time = money, but only in the real world. In Eve, however, time is free. In RL, if you spend 1 week doing a task, the output you get from that task has to at least cover the cost of the resources that sustained you for that week. If you are unable to do this consistently, you eventually die. In Eve, however, you can be as inefficient in mining as you want, at no in-game cost to yourself. Yes, RL cost, but no in-game cost. As such, there is no bottom limit determining at what price you need to sell ore/minerals. On the demand side... All players spending long enough in Eve will eventually make enough money to upgrade all their equipment. This is a given, as time has no cost in Eve. So, given enough time, most players will eventually have the top equipment they could want, with no need to maintain it (unless they are in regular battles). As such, it follows that demand for equipment and basic raw materials will grow ever-less as the game grows more mature. The only source of replacement parts is the occasions when people lose their ships. As all grow to the best ships, the incidence of ship loss will decrease as the ships all become more evenly matched. Outcome: An unlimited supply added to a diminishing demand results in a general economic slow-down. Lack of demand takes away the incentive for your suppliers to continue to obtain more goods through mining or even hunting. This takes away the incentive for a whole sector of the game population. All that's left is exploring, trading and corp wars. The need to actually 'make a living' for many in the game dissappears. While some may find it fine for everyone to eventually reach the pinnacle of achievement, and then spend their time shooting each other up, this does not appeal to all. Furthermore, it provides greater barriers for entry to new players when the game is mature. New players will find themselves needing to sell ore/minerals at rediculously cheap prices, so will take longer to progress. On top of this, the lack of demand in the market will provide less means and incentive for them to progress. So a diminishing population due to people having less opportunities for an in-game livelyhood, combined with higher barriers for entry to new people results in a poorer outlook for the long-term future of the game. (Proposed Ideas in Followup post...) . . - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - ...and remember - No pain, no pain.
Trixxy Gallente The Chaos Fellowship	Posted - 2003.07.23 11:34:00 - [2] Edited by: Trixxy on 23/07/2003 11:35:40 Basic Assumption of the Problem: You have an unlimited, cost-free (in-game) supply of raw material in the game, but you have a limited and even progressively decreasing demand. Justification: On the supply side... Any player starting off in Eve has the ability to mine. Mining costs nothing in the game. It takes the player's time, but this is not an in-game cost. Time = money, but only in the real world. In Eve, however, time is free. In RL, if you spend 1 week doing a task, the output you get from that task has to at least cover the cost of the resources that sustained you for that week. If you are unable to do this consistently, you eventually die. In Eve, however, you can be as inefficient in mining as you want, at no in-game cost to yourself. Yes, RL cost, but no in-game cost. As such, there is no bottom limit determining at what price you need to sell ore/minerals. On the demand side... All players spending long enough in Eve will eventually make enough money to upgrade all their equipment. This is a given, as time has no cost in Eve. So, given enough time, most players will eventually have the top equipment they could want, with no need to maintain it (unless they are in regular battles). As such, it follows that demand for equipment and basic raw materials will grow ever-less as the game grows more mature. The only source of replacement parts is the occasions when people lose their ships. As all grow to the best ships, the incidence of ship loss will decrease as the ships all become more evenly matched. Outcome: An unlimited supply added to a diminishing demand results in a general economic slow-down. Lack of demand takes away the incentive for your suppliers to continue to obtain more goods through mining or even hunting. This takes away the incentive for a whole sector of the game population. All that's left is exploring, trading and corp wars. The need to actually 'make a living' for many in the game dissappears. While some may find it fine for everyone to eventually reach the pinnacle of achievement, and then spend their time shooting each other up, this does not appeal to all. Furthermore, it provides greater barriers for entry to new players when the game is mature. New players will find themselves needing to sell ore/minerals at rediculously cheap prices, so will take longer to progress. On top of this, the lack of demand in the market will provide less means and incentive for them to progress. So a diminishing population due to people having less opportunities for an in-game livelyhood, combined with higher barriers for entry to new people results in a poorer outlook for the long-term future of the game. (Proposed Ideas in Followup post...) . . - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - ...and remember - No pain, no pain.
Trixxy	Posted - 2003.07.23 11:36:00 - [3] Edited by: Trixxy on 23/07/2003 11:40:57 ... Continued from Prev Post Proposed Ideas: The statements above are perhaps quite extreme - but are deliberately so to highlight the basic flaws. What follows are a couple of ideas to help alleviate these problems and create a more dynamic (hence interesting) in-game economy: Introduce a cost to mining (such as fuel/power/etc). While neatly addressing the supply side, this has a problem in disadvantaging less-established players, so I'm not wonderfully keen on introducing it (as much as I like it as an idea). So I won't say more on this, accept to point out that this can effectively still be achieved in a more fair way in point 2 below... Introduce wear-and-tear and maintenance on all items. This entails the using of an item degrading it in a way that takes money to maintain it. The more you use it, the more you have to spend to get it back to top shape. The more advanced the item, the higher the cost to maintain it. In this way, you introduce a cost to any action you do in-game, be it mining, exploring, manufacturing, etc. The more established players are not unduly advantaged as they have better equipment, so higher maintenance costs. New players have low maintenance costs. It's self-regulating. This neatly addresses the no-cost supply side. Introduce item failure, with parts replacement and maintenance The purpose of this is to inject a constant demand on material and items, even in the mature end-game. How's it work? The more use an item sees, the more likely it is to break down, and the higher the chance of a complete failure. This basically equates to depreciation - it's a fact-of-life in the real world economy, so why not in Eve? A break-down could involve the need to obtain and fit a part and/or more raw material. A complete failure would necessitate the replacement of the whole item - the old one only being good for recycling. Any item that is used in the game for something (be it ship, gun, drone, or even factory slot) would have a useful life after which chances of partial or complete failure start rising (in case of real-estate, obviously complete failure can't occur). This introduces new economic opportunities - businesses specialising in spare parts and/or maintenance. This leads to item 5 below. Introduce Quality on all Manufactured items. Basically, the better your manufacturing skill, the higher quality the items you produce. The lower an item's quality, the more chance it has of partial or complete failure earlier in its life. Obviously then, quality becomes a factor in an item's price. Introduce opportunities for entirely service-based means of earning money Such examples include: * Servicing of items to repair them. Or servicing to upgrade quality (provided you have the skills). * How about a service to customise the colour of ships (or parts thereof), involving its own set of skills? I like this suggestion as it's another outlet for money in the economy. It also gives people another way of expressing their personality in-game, and gives an additional career-line. * Another idea is a Private-investigations-type career path. Involves skilling in a line that gives access to a low-combat-capabilities ship, but with high speed and the ability for stealth and cloaking. Add to this skills that increase the ability to find people (again, only in this stealth-ship). Using these skills, you have to get close enough to your target to 'tag' him (involving risk of detection, obviously), after which he can be located by your client. Such a service can be used to try locate people that have contracts out on them, or locating good pirate hunting grounds, etc. * <Insert more ideas of service-based jobs here> Concluded in followup post... . . - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - ...and remember - No pain, no pain.
Trixxy Gallente The Chaos Fellowship	Posted - 2003.07.23 11:36:00 - [4] Edited by: Trixxy on 23/07/2003 11:40:57 ... Continued from Prev Post Proposed Ideas: The statements above are perhaps quite extreme - but are deliberately so to highlight the basic flaws. What follows are a couple of ideas to help alleviate these problems and create a more dynamic (hence interesting) in-game economy: Introduce a cost to mining (such as fuel/power/etc). While neatly addressing the supply side, this has a problem in disadvantaging less-established players, so I'm not wonderfully keen on introducing it (as much as I like it as an idea). So I won't say more on this, accept to point out that this can effectively still be achieved in a more fair way in point 2 below... Introduce wear-and-tear and maintenance on all items. This entails the using of an item degrading it in a way that takes money to maintain it. The more you use it, the more you have to spend to get it back to top shape. The more advanced the item, the higher the cost to maintain it. In this way, you introduce a cost to any action you do in-game, be it mining, exploring, manufacturing, etc. The more established players are not unduly advantaged as they have better equipment, so higher maintenance costs. New players have low maintenance costs. It's self-regulating. This neatly addresses the no-cost supply side. Introduce item failure, with parts replacement and maintenance The purpose of this is to inject a constant demand on material and items, even in the mature end-game. How's it work? The more use an item sees, the more likely it is to break down, and the higher the chance of a complete failure. This basically equates to depreciation - it's a fact-of-life in the real world economy, so why not in Eve? A break-down could involve the need to obtain and fit a part and/or more raw material. A complete failure would necessitate the replacement of the whole item - the old one only being good for recycling. Any item that is used in the game for something (be it ship, gun, drone, or even factory slot) would have a useful life after which chances of partial or complete failure start rising (in case of real-estate, obviously complete failure can't occur). This introduces new economic opportunities - businesses specialising in spare parts and/or maintenance. This leads to item 5 below. Introduce Quality on all Manufactured items. Basically, the better your manufacturing skill, the higher quality the items you produce. The lower an item's quality, the more chance it has of partial or complete failure earlier in its life. Obviously then, quality becomes a factor in an item's price. Introduce opportunities for entirely service-based means of earning money Such examples include: * Servicing of items to repair them. Or servicing to upgrade quality (provided you have the skills). * How about a service to customise the colour of ships (or parts thereof), involving its own set of skills? I like this suggestion as it's another outlet for money in the economy. It also gives people another way of expressing their personality in-game, and gives an additional career-line. * Another idea is a Private-investigations-type career path. Involves skilling in a line that gives access to a low-combat-capabilities ship, but with high speed and the ability for stealth and cloaking. Add to this skills that increase the ability to find people (again, only in this stealth-ship). Using these skills, you have to get close enough to your target to 'tag' him (involving risk of detection, obviously), after which he can be located by your client. Such a service can be used to try locate people that have contracts out on them, or locating good pirate hunting grounds, etc. * <Insert more ideas of service-based jobs here> Concluded in followup post... . . - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - ...and remember - No pain, no pain.
Trixxy	Posted - 2003.07.23 11:43:00 - [5] ...Concludes previous 2 posts Benefits: * You now have a cost to doing anything in-game - which means there is a solid floor to prices people can sell for in order to still make money. It also makes it easier to do things like corner a market - which leads to more opportunity for Corp conflict. * You now have a demand which is more in-tune with the supply. The need to constantly replace items ensures the need to maintain a steady career-path in the supply-side of the game. New market niches also open. * You have alternative career paths with their own sets of challenges around the service-based industry of the game. In short, you have a more dynamic and self-sustaining environment that should hopefully hold interest for longer. I have a few other ideas, but haven't given them enough thought to express here. I'll wait for the response to these ones first. P.S.) Forgive me if I've mentioned ideas already mentioned by others. I haven't taken the time to read through all existing ideas before compiling this post. P.P.S) An idea for these forums - A 'preview' function - allows us to get the formatting of a post right before the need to submit it. Also would be nice to have access to the thread in the area below where you type your new post - making it easier to refer back and to quote. Have Fun . . - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - ...and remember - No pain, no pain.
Trixxy Gallente The Chaos Fellowship	Posted - 2003.07.23 11:43:00 - [6] ...Concludes previous 2 posts Benefits: * You now have a cost to doing anything in-game - which means there is a solid floor to prices people can sell for in order to still make money. It also makes it easier to do things like corner a market - which leads to more opportunity for Corp conflict. * You now have a demand which is more in-tune with the supply. The need to constantly replace items ensures the need to maintain a steady career-path in the supply-side of the game. New market niches also open. * You have alternative career paths with their own sets of challenges around the service-based industry of the game. In short, you have a more dynamic and self-sustaining environment that should hopefully hold interest for longer. I have a few other ideas, but haven't given them enough thought to express here. I'll wait for the response to these ones first. P.S.) Forgive me if I've mentioned ideas already mentioned by others. I haven't taken the time to read through all existing ideas before compiling this post. P.P.S) An idea for these forums - A 'preview' function - allows us to get the formatting of a post right before the need to submit it. Also would be nice to have access to the thread in the area below where you type your new post - making it easier to refer back and to quote. Have Fun . . - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - ...and remember - No pain, no pain.
Severe McCald	Posted - 2003.07.23 15:22:00 - [7] What a well thought out set of suggestions. I hope someone at CCP is paying attention. I would only add that the fuel point worked well in elite, based as it was on the size of your ship. Noob ship fuel costs were minimal, in bigger ships it began to be noticable, but fuel was relatively cheap so the cost did not interfere with gameplay. Once corp wars start to bite, every cost might prove to be crucial. Corp wars may also solve the market problem, if they prove damaging enough. SM And Moses was content to dwell with the man:and he gave Moses Zipporah his daughter. And she bare him a son, and he called his name Gershom:for he said, I have been a stranger in a strange land.
Severe McCald Caldari Eve Defence Force	Posted - 2003.07.23 15:22:00 - [8] What a well thought out set of suggestions. I hope someone at CCP is paying attention. I would only add that the fuel point worked well in elite, based as it was on the size of your ship. Noob ship fuel costs were minimal, in bigger ships it began to be noticable, but fuel was relatively cheap so the cost did not interfere with gameplay. Once corp wars start to bite, every cost might prove to be crucial. Corp wars may also solve the market problem, if they prove damaging enough. SM I saw a squirrel today jumping from one tree to another, the branch it landed on snapped. So the squirrel was on this falling branch, clambering like mad, thinking it was doing something about it.'
Danton Marcellus	Posted - 2003.07.23 15:31:00 - [9] Instead, or in addition to fuel, i'd like to see hiring and firing of crews as a cost, much like Pirates. Thinking of this game it could also add the possible mutinys as a way of PC to lose ships to the NPC side. Convert Stations
Danton Marcellus Nebula Rasa Holdings	Posted - 2003.07.23 15:31:00 - [10] Instead, or in addition to fuel, i'd like to see hiring and firing of crews as a cost, much like Pirates. Thinking of this game it could also add the possible mutinys as a way of PC to lose ships to the NPC side. Also Known As
Drewbicus	Posted - 2003.07.23 16:42:00 - [11] Great ideas! I'm gonna bump this regularly if possible). My addition: Adding skills in repair, and adding tradeable goods called "Parts for (Item X)" along with the ability to construct them would make mechanics a valued part of the economy.
Drewbicus	Posted - 2003.07.23 16:42:00 - [12] Great ideas! I'm gonna bump this regularly if possible). My addition: Adding skills in repair, and adding tradeable goods called "Parts for (Item X)" along with the ability to construct them would make mechanics a valued part of the economy.
Trixxy	Posted - 2003.07.23 17:45:00 - [13] Drewbicus said: My addition: Adding skills in repair, and adding tradeable goods called "Parts for (Item X)" along with the ability to construct them would make mechanics a valued part of the economy. Exactly Drew. This is a new career path that opens, and provides a new use for raw materials. I would prefer if NPC-sourced parts were either quite hard to come-by, or only available at high prices - basically giving incentive for players to source them from manufacturers (other players). Skills for mechanics will determine cost-per-part in manufacturing and the parts available to create. Skills could also determine what a player-mechanic is able to repair. Charge more for NPC-repairs to encourage players to branch into that market. Only the most skilled would therefore be able to repair or make/replace parts in the best battleships at anywhere closing in on reasonable price. . . - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - ...and remember - No pain, no pain.
Trixxy Gallente The Chaos Fellowship	Posted - 2003.07.23 17:45:00 - [14] Drewbicus said: My addition: Adding skills in repair, and adding tradeable goods called "Parts for (Item X)" along with the ability to construct them would make mechanics a valued part of the economy. Exactly Drew. This is a new career path that opens, and provides a new use for raw materials. I would prefer if NPC-sourced parts were either quite hard to come-by, or only available at high prices - basically giving incentive for players to source them from manufacturers (other players). Skills for mechanics will determine cost-per-part in manufacturing and the parts available to create. Skills could also determine what a player-mechanic is able to repair. Charge more for NPC-repairs to encourage players to branch into that market. Only the most skilled would therefore be able to repair or make/replace parts in the best battleships at anywhere closing in on reasonable price. . . - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - ...and remember - No pain, no pain.
Crazy Carl	Posted - 2003.07.23 18:39:00 - [15] I like this. The player-run economy is great in theory, but you need a deep understanding of economics to implement it properly. It's a good thing there are concerned, educated players that can offer such detailed plans for improvemenet. Are you listening, CCP? This gets my vote for best idea of the day.
Crazy Carl Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2003.07.23 18:39:00 - [16] I like this. The player-run economy is great in theory, but you need a deep understanding of economics to implement it properly. It's a good thing there are concerned, educated players that can offer such detailed plans for improvemenet. Are you listening, CCP? This gets my vote for best idea of the day.
Doc Who	Posted - 2003.07.23 23:48:00 - [17] Very well thought out and argued post! I agree with this post 100%
Doc Who	Posted - 2003.07.23 23:48:00 - [18] Very well thought out and argued post! I agree with this post 100%
Trucker	Posted - 2003.07.24 08:29:00 - [19] A lot of these ideas have been mentioned before in varying levels of detail. Hopefully someone in CCP is taking notice. Would be nice to see some sort of input from their side on the practicalities of introducing some of these sorts of changes.
Trucker Amarr	Posted - 2003.07.24 08:29:00 - [20] A lot of these ideas have been mentioned before in varying levels of detail. Hopefully someone in CCP is taking notice. Would be nice to see some sort of input from their side on the practicalities of introducing some of these sorts of changes.
Ruffles	Posted - 2003.07.24 11:50:00 - [21] A lot of people have asked for a number of things in the past on these forums, some of which were: 1) Quality on manufactured items, so as to allow to compete with drops. 2) Reduced quality on drops, as they have in most cases just come from an exploding vessel. This is kindof akin to salvage in a way. 3) 100% damaged items not being fully-repairable again. 4) Require Trade Goods as part of the blueprint requirements for items. Electronic Parts for Ships, Miniature Electronics for Lasers, sensors, shields, etc... This would help to stimulate a player Demand for these items on the marketplace, and you wouldn't just have the best Trade Runs depeleted not long after down time. There would be potentially continual demand, in varying quanitities. I don't really agree with the cost in mining. It is already the most dull element to the game, and people have to spend hours or days to get some reward from it. Yes it costs money, you are paying for the fun game, and mining is about as un-fun as you can get. It could use something. Remote refining, and other such in space activities will be welcomed when they arrive :) I think the service based thing is a great plan, but sadly requires a number of features, mostly Player Stations. Without these, providing services really isn't your option. The owners of the station provide these services after all. However, it would be nice to see services like these offered by players in their stations. Repairs (where the level of the Mechanic skill of the person offering the service affects the cost possibly), etc...
Ruffles	Posted - 2003.07.24 11:50:00 - [22] A lot of people have asked for a number of things in the past on these forums, some of which were: 1) Quality on manufactured items, so as to allow to compete with drops. 2) Reduced quality on drops, as they have in most cases just come from an exploding vessel. This is kindof akin to salvage in a way. 3) 100% damaged items not being fully-repairable again. 4) Require Trade Goods as part of the blueprint requirements for items. Electronic Parts for Ships, Miniature Electronics for Lasers, sensors, shields, etc... This would help to stimulate a player Demand for these items on the marketplace, and you wouldn't just have the best Trade Runs depeleted not long after down time. There would be potentially continual demand, in varying quanitities. I don't really agree with the cost in mining. It is already the most dull element to the game, and people have to spend hours or days to get some reward from it. Yes it costs money, you are paying for the fun game, and mining is about as un-fun as you can get. It could use something. Remote refining, and other such in space activities will be welcomed when they arrive :) I think the service based thing is a great plan, but sadly requires a number of features, mostly Player Stations. Without these, providing services really isn't your option. The owners of the station provide these services after all. However, it would be nice to see services like these offered by players in their stations. Repairs (where the level of the Mechanic skill of the person offering the service affects the cost possibly), etc...
Tyrion Nydaerin	Posted - 2003.07.24 11:53:00 - [23] Yes, yes, yes yes, the eve ecomomy is waning due to the finite demand but infinite supply of perpetual items, wear and tear, fuel etc would not only help balance this but make the game more realistic. -=Fountain Alliance High Council Member=-
Tyrion Nydaerin The Yakuza	Posted - 2003.07.24 11:53:00 - [24] Yes, yes, yes yes, the eve ecomomy is waning due to the finite demand but infinite supply of perpetual items, wear and tear, fuel etc would not only help balance this but make the game more realistic. -=Fountain Alliance High Council Member=-
Mned Graydroggen	Posted - 2003.07.24 12:11:00 - [25] Great stuff there Trixxy . Hope CCP reads this and starts to look for implementation posibilities
Mned Graydroggen Satal's Legion	Posted - 2003.07.24 12:11:00 - [26] Great stuff there Trixxy . Hope CCP reads this and starts to look for implementation posibilities
Pran Thea	Posted - 2003.07.24 12:51:00 - [27] Edited by: Pran Thea on 24/07/2003 19:59:42 Edited by: Pran Thea on 24/07/2003 12:53:32 Edited by: Pran Thea on 24/07/2003 12:51:41 Just to keep related topics together. Earlier post on Wear and Tear [Edit] Edited to correct link [Edit] ========================================== The only good slave is an ex-slave trader.
Pran Thea Minmatar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2003.07.24 12:51:00 - [28] Edited by: Pran Thea on 24/07/2003 19:59:42 Edited by: Pran Thea on 24/07/2003 12:53:32 Edited by: Pran Thea on 24/07/2003 12:51:41 Just to keep related topics together. Earlier post on Wear and Tear [Edit] Edited to correct link [Edit] ========================================== The only good slave is an ex-slave trader.
Trucker	Posted - 2003.07.24 13:05:00 - [29] Heh heh - there's a link in that topic to this one as well. Guess that is to be expected as the ideas are similar. This one gives the deeper reasoning as to why it's a good idea though, along with other related suggestions. For your URL to work, you need to put the 'http' bit in double-quotes. So it will be <url="(web_address)">(text)</url>. I'm using angled instead of square braces so it won't be interpreted as a URL by the forum software.
Trucker Amarr	Posted - 2003.07.24 13:05:00 - [30] Heh heh - there's a link in that topic to this one as well. Guess that is to be expected as the ideas are similar. This one gives the deeper reasoning as to why it's a good idea though, along with other related suggestions. For your URL to work, you need to put the 'http' bit in double-quotes. So it will be <url="(web_address)">(text)</url>. I'm using angled instead of square braces so it won't be interpreted as a URL by the forum software.

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