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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 29 post(s) |
Hannott Thanos
Notorious Legion
466
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Posted - 2013.03.14 09:53:00 -
[181] - Quote
The Groundskeeper wrote:Kronanius wrote:My problem lies with something mentioned earlier called the "Pando Media Booster". Getting that product running under WINE is a gigantic nightmare. ~Kronanius I didn't spot that Pando was being considered. If it's that dross then definitely count me out. Except it wasn't considered |
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CCP Atropos
C C P C C P Alliance
184
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Posted - 2013.03.14 11:05:00 -
[182] - Quote
We're not using Pando Media Booster. I hope that clears things up Product Owner, EVE Launcher | Team Special Circumstances |
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Vedrea
The Shahi Balti
17
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Posted - 2013.03.14 11:08:00 -
[183] - Quote
Request:
Auto-Play tick box.
Thank you please. Come again.
Also, my ISP (British Telecom Infinity) do arbitrary traffic shaping with deep packet inspection for torrents until after midnight. I would seriously like the option to use HTTP over BitTorrent if possible.
Ta.
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Valkyrs
Deep Vein Trading
56
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Posted - 2013.03.14 11:51:00 -
[184] - Quote
I'm good with it, would you be encrypting the traffic to try to avoid the bittorrent traffic shaping?
Also it would be nice if you guys could provide an RSS feed for updates, so I can get the updates from my native BitTorrent client and the download started right away, before I log in to EVE and rather than having another daemon running for updates. |
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CCP Aporia
C C P C C P Alliance
68
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Posted - 2013.03.14 13:31:00 -
[185] - Quote
Valkyrs wrote:I'm good with it, would you be encrypting the traffic to try to avoid the bittorrent traffic shaping?
Also it would be nice if you guys could provide an RSS feed for updates, so I can get the updates from my native BitTorrent client and the download started right away, before I log in to EVE and rather than having another daemon running for updates.
You won't be able to use a native bittorrent client. While we do use the BitTorrent protocol then we do some post-processing of the files we receive in order to make them usable by the EVE client. Senior Programmer Team Special Circumstances |
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loquacious7
Pawnstars INC The Fendahlian Collective
0
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Posted - 2013.03.15 01:34:00 -
[186] - Quote
CCP Aporia wrote:Aethlyn wrote:Sounds interesting. I just hope you include your own torrent handling and don't use any abomination such as that dreaded Pando Media Booster. :)
Also, I'd suggest by default the launcher should ask on first start, whether it should use bittorrent connections or just classic HTTP, because at least in Germany, some ISPs (like universities or some mobile providers) don't like to see P2P traffic and will rightout block, slowdown or sanctionize it (e.g. by cutting your internet access if there're too high P2P Transfers). Always think of unaware/non-savy computer users/players. We are not using Pando Media Booster or anything like that. The launcher is using it's own mechanism, which is based on a publically available torrent client library. By default it will use HTTP as transport as well as BitTorrent, so you should be all good even when you cannot use any P2P traffic. This is also one of the reasons why we want to bring it to a test server near you soon, so that we can gain more experience with how the mechanism would perform for people behind restrictive firewalls / ISPs.
Speaking of Test Server, Why my Windows 7 hates my sisi launcher is beond me. I have followed every instruction several times but still can only manage to have two sisi launchers or two Retribution launchers. ie they can be named something else and be created rom seperate folders but will auto rename the destination of the other launcher when used. So I can clean up my files and reinstal all 5.3 GB of game and start over or I can just play on sisi :-) what a great trick if CCP could make a seperate launcher to sisi from the Retribution Launcher or a link. |
Axhind
Eternity INC. Goonswarm Federation
9
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Posted - 2013.03.15 02:28:00 -
[187] - Quote
Karl Mattar wrote:Is there any way you can set the launcher to launch multiple eve windows for those of us who run two (or more) accounts at the same time? Configurable with different settings for monitors?
I have two monitors. They are different sizes. It is quite the pain to start everything up because the settings don't hold over from session to session. Whichever session I closed last is how it all starts up again.
Otherwise, I have no issues with this proposal at all.
Use junction (free download from MS). makes life a lot easier with several clients ;) |
LiKuei
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
0
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Posted - 2013.03.15 05:44:00 -
[188] - Quote
If there is going top be a way to "Opt OUT" of using your proposed Torrent set-up, you will keep me as a customer.
I do not buy games that use internet sites to validate them (i.e Steam) nor do I use Torrent sites. A partial reason for this is that most of the ISPs I have at my disposal do not let you use these. A secondary reason is that I do not want my computer talking to the world 24/7. |
Malifae
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
45
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Posted - 2013.03.15 06:28:00 -
[189] - Quote
By design, the Bit Torrent protocol exposes the IP address of every peer to which you send or receive data, regardless of any encryption. Sounds like a great mechanism for someone to compile a database of IP addresses of known EVE players. I can't imagine anyone would ever do something nefarious with that information.
Yeah. |
Primary This Rifter
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
1
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Posted - 2013.03.15 07:52:00 -
[190] - Quote
Malifae wrote:By design, the Bit Torrent protocol exposes the IP address of every peer to which you send or receive data, regardless of any encryption. Sounds like a great mechanism for someone to compile a database of IP addresses of known EVE players. I can't imagine anyone would ever do something nefarious with that information.
Yeah. What exactly do you expect someone to do with your IP address? Yes, I'm an alt. Congratulations. |
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MainDrain
7th Deepari Defence Armada
163
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Posted - 2013.03.15 10:02:00 -
[191] - Quote
Primary This Rifter wrote:Malifae wrote:By design, the Bit Torrent protocol exposes the IP address of every peer to which you send or receive data, regardless of any encryption. Sounds like a great mechanism for someone to compile a database of IP addresses of known EVE players. I can't imagine anyone would ever do something nefarious with that information.
Yeah. What exactly do you expect someone to do with your IP address?
Eat his firstborn? its a worry I have anyway.
Serious note, like the idea of this. Mainly because my work wifi doesnt restrict torrent traffic (limits speed rather than wholesale blocking) so I should be able to patch at work |
Malifae
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
45
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Posted - 2013.03.15 11:11:00 -
[192] - Quote
Primary This Rifter wrote:Malifae wrote:By design, the Bit Torrent protocol exposes the IP address of every peer to which you send or receive data, regardless of any encryption. Sounds like a great mechanism for someone to compile a database of IP addresses of known EVE players. I can't imagine anyone would ever do something nefarious with that information.
Yeah. What exactly do you expect someone to do with your IP address?
If you have to ask, there is no point trying to explain it to you. |
Whitehound
1210
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Posted - 2013.03.15 11:42:00 -
[193] - Quote
A nice read. Sounds great all in all. I am looking forward to the new launcher. Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling. |
KIller Wabbit
The Scope Gallente Federation
329
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Posted - 2013.03.15 16:13:00 -
[194] - Quote
CCP Aporia wrote:Scaugh wrote:is there any information on what additional/extra bandwith useage we should be expecting with these changes. I'm on a fairly limited data package as it is, with large charges for execeeding it.
I know any answer would probably be dependant on hours played but surely with a change like this you have some sort of calcuations done (even if its on your ownserver side). So, because of the way we are changing things the amount of data downloaded for a fresh client install is round about 11 GB. This is roughly double the amount of the current installer, but this should only be happening if you have absolutely no files installed, or everything in your installation is corrupted our outdated. Since you already have an installation then this case should be of no immediate concern to you. From measuring the differences of 13 EVE client updates we ended up with the smallest patch size being about 9 MB and the largest 2.4 GB. The extra bandwidth on your end that might be opposed by seeding files depends upon the speed at which you seed. A simple calculation: If you upload at 1/10th of the speed you are downloading, and the client update is 2 GB, then the extra bandwidth is pretty much 200 MB. Hope this helps. :-)
Here's a thought - stop making the client grow to unwieldy sizes! For example - adding code so that character make can be run while the rest of the download is in progress. Creating a character is such an incredibly small part of the EVE experience, in terms of time, that adding yet more bloated code to the package is ridiculous. We expect to have to wait for the download to complete before we start using it.
Drop code that isn't needed. CQ - serves no purpose. Drop it.
Implement better coding practices. Companies can do better at squeezing code. They just put the thought of code bloat aside until they hit the bandwidth/disk image wall. Then they are trapped by a mountain of bloated legacy code.
THE last thing I want on my PC is BitTorrent.
Do something we really want - toon switching without re-launch of client. THAT would be useful.
CCP Punkturis-á "I want to get in on the goodposter circle jerk!"
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Wodensun
ZeroSec
65
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Posted - 2013.03.15 16:35:00 -
[195] - Quote
Primary This Rifter wrote:Malifae wrote:By design, the Bit Torrent protocol exposes the IP address of every peer to which you send or receive data, regardless of any encryption. Sounds like a great mechanism for someone to compile a database of IP addresses of known EVE players. I can't imagine anyone would ever do something nefarious with that information.
Yeah. What exactly do you expect someone to do with your IP address?
DoS. DDoS. Exploiting your Router/Modem. Possibly Man in the Middle attacks. Messing with your EvE client since we know what ports it listens on.
I might be able to think of more but i'd need to run a nmap vs your IP first... Which incidentally was handed to me by CCP... |
Wanderer Unknown
Trust N1
0
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Posted - 2013.03.15 16:55:00 -
[196] - Quote
// deleted |
Primary This Rifter
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
2
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Posted - 2013.03.15 18:27:00 -
[197] - Quote
Wodensun wrote:Primary This Rifter wrote:Malifae wrote:By design, the Bit Torrent protocol exposes the IP address of every peer to which you send or receive data, regardless of any encryption. Sounds like a great mechanism for someone to compile a database of IP addresses of known EVE players. I can't imagine anyone would ever do something nefarious with that information.
Yeah. What exactly do you expect someone to do with your IP address? DoS. DDoS. Exploiting your Router/Modem. Possibly Man in the Middle attacks. Messing with your EvE client since we know what ports it listens on. I might be able to think of more but i'd need to run a nmap vs your IP first... Which incidentally was handed to me by CCP... None of which anyone on the internet who was determined to exploit couldn't exploit without using a bittorrent client.
My point is that the torrent doesn't provide any vulnerabilities that aren't already there. Yes, I'm an alt. Congratulations. |
AenS
Jadablade S E D I T I O N
1
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Posted - 2013.03.15 18:30:00 -
[198] - Quote
BitTorrent: Ok why not. And Thanks for keeping the old way as well! Just one little thing, -its not mentioned anywhere in the devblog nor this topic-
Implement : Proxy settings !!!
I can't use the current launcher at work because of that...My only workaround is this:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2047931#post2047931
with this: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1689275#post1689275 (when the links in the thread are actually up to date)
SO please, make the life easy for everyone :)
Thank you for your attention! |
Korgan Nailo
5ER3NITY INC Apocalypse Now.
119
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Posted - 2013.03.15 20:22:00 -
[199] - Quote
A great move in the right direction.
It does amuses me the amount of idiotic comments and "concerns" in this thread though.
Looking forward to the new launcher. --== EvE Online Quick Reference Sheet: E-Uni Forums Link / EvE Forums Link ==-- |
Sierra Mackenzie
Black Widow Logistics
0
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Posted - 2013.03.15 22:55:00 -
[200] - Quote
So glad you're dedicating programming time to improving the launcher than improving the actual game. Instead of improving the experience for existing players, they're improving it to draw in new players. Why else would they need to improve Steam integration?
...
Edit: Also, all of the tinfoil hat wearers in this thread crack me up. Oh noes, BitTorrent is going to eat my computer and malicious users are going to have my IP! Whatever shall I do!? |
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Luna Moonraker
LUNA-CORP
7
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Posted - 2013.03.16 00:42:00 -
[201] - Quote
CCP Aporia wrote:Luna Moonraker wrote: [...] There is some concern with the Mac EVE Online client which does seem to have an issue running with torrents running in the background and if this same traffic causes similar hanging issues then it means that specific issue needs addressing with even more urgency. I guess we will see from Sisi testing.
And any potential issues arising from the permissions/ user rights for additional file/ folder data checking that will be required. Not all users will have Admin privileges. [...]
The Mac issue reported in this thread cannot be caused by torrents because there is no launcher available that uses torrents at the moment. While there might be issues then they are unlikely to be the same problem as what was reported. Though we are of course aware that the Mac client does behave a bit special at times. About the admin privileges: We actually are looking into ways of mitigating these by eventually moving the installation of the EVE client into a more appropriate place, fitting with the various operating system guidelines on where this data should live, mostly because that will also take away some pain on our end when it comes to maintaining the update mechanism. Requiring admin privileges is really a bad habit but was not really frowned upon in the Windows world until Microsoft introduced UAC; and as we all know it takes a while for some things to get adopted properly. Thanks for the detailed reply Aporia.
The issue with Torrents I was referring to is not related directly to the current download mechanic but to anecdotal accounts which appear to confirm that running torrents 'at the same time as' the Mac EVE Online client seems to cause an increase in the freeze/ hang without any error log generated issue that has been ongoing for a long time. An recent example post (of many) noting this link would be here and are generally found in the long running 'Constantly freezing up' Mac forum thread
So, although there is no current torrent element to the download, if patches and downloads moved to a torrent based method, perhaps this issue could be exacerbated because it is an option for users to simply not run torrents when playing EVE on the Mac but unavoidable if it is an integral part of the Launcher.
Being that the Launcher would generally be run prior to play (i.e. to patch or update the game) then it is perhaps a non-issue. But if a torrent share was continued after the download is completed, then this may be an issue.
I am glad you are already considering the permissions issue at this stage. You hands are tied to a degree with the Mac EVE client utilising a Transgaming port and subsequent file hierarchy. But, given the current security systems in place now in OS X, traversing the array of such features, including permissions is more important than ever to avoid end user issues. |
Cpt Bogus
Whimsical Mining Refining and Exploration
8
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Posted - 2013.03.16 02:45:00 -
[202] - Quote
Personally, I like it when companies aren't afraid to use BT distribution. The IP address thing is a valid concern but as others have said anyone determined to get players' IPs already has ways of doing this so it's kind of irrelevant. |
Wanderer Unknown
Trust N1
0
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Posted - 2013.03.16 07:44:00 -
[203] - Quote
@ CCP/Team Special Circumstances
I'm a little bit curious what exactly in your existing implementation was so hard to fix that you considered to do a full re-write using a different, 3rd party library. You already have a resource server mapped to CDN. Now you need like two APIs - get metadata and get the resource.
Get metadata takes things like market, reseller id, etc plus a rounded down timestamp like ts=20130316 to break the CDN cache. It then returns the most recent list of downloadable resources or resource chunks with CRCs as published under some versioned folder on your resource server.
Then the second API is called by the clients to download the parts they are missing. If the resource is too big - OK it could be concatenated and served in chunks spanning across multiple files.
Then the client side is relatively easy - just make the calls, download stuff, CRC, apply.
I would think it's rather risky to switch to a different implementation with no huge benefits (other than being able to prioritize character data loading over world data).
Possibly I'm missing something like a need to support lots of client platforms... (PC, Mac OS, now PS3).
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Primary This Rifter
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
2
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Posted - 2013.03.16 08:36:00 -
[204] - Quote
Sierra Mackenzie wrote:So glad you're dedicating programming time to improving the launcher than improving the actual game. Instead of improving the experience for existing players, they're improving it to draw in new players. Why else would they need to improve Steam integration?
...
Edit: Also, all of the tinfoil hat wearers in this thread crack me up. Oh noes, BitTorrent is going to eat my computer and malicious users are going to have my IP! Whatever shall I do!? Tinfoil accuser should look in the mirror. CCP is perfectly capable of devoting developer resources to several areas of the game at once, including things like the launcher. And as for improving the experience for existing players, the devblog and subsequent posts indicated an issue with the current downloader implementation where if a download was interrupted, sometimes the entire installation would be corrupted. Many EVE players have had this problem before and while I personally haven't I can imagine it's extremely frustrating. Adding a bittorrent protocol would prevent this from happening for the majority of players. Yes, I'm an alt. Congratulations. |
Jane Travelstar
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
25
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Posted - 2013.03.16 11:24:00 -
[205] - Quote
Hey there CCP.
1. Please don't make it like Blizzard's awful BitTorrent-based launcher. They don't let people change the speed at which they upload to the swarm.
2. There are so many ISPs out there who still throttle BitTorrent bandwidth, making those things crawl down to a halt.
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Othran
Route One
457
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Posted - 2013.03.16 11:55:00 -
[206] - Quote
As long as its only running while the launcher is open/downloading that's cool.
Anything else isn't acceptable to me I'm afraid.
I've heard all the "it won't affect your internet use" bollox before. On multiple games and from multiple companies.
It most certainly will as unless you've hand-tweaked your router (exceptionally unlikely for most of you), once the upload nears saturation then you aren't going to be able to push enough ACKs back to maintain the d/l speed of other users on your LAN.
Also of course you'll end up with lost UDP packets which is just lovely for other people gaming on your connection
I note that upload will be "limited". Heard all that before too, sooner or later you end up with a patch that maxes out upload and fucks up everyone else using the connection. Again multiple games and multiple companies have all done this.
I've also heard all the arguments about how this will make things "better" for users. It's only ever better for the company concerned who can reduce their CDN fees and hence increase their profits.
tl;dr fine as long as the P2P process terminates when the launcher closes/isn't downloading. Not fine otherwise. |
I Love Boobies
All Hail Boobies
388
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Posted - 2013.03.16 11:58:00 -
[207] - Quote
Will be looking for the number of share upload connections when this comes out and setting it to zero. Or if that doesn't work, will just block it via my security software so it cannot be shared from my computer. ( o Y o ) ( o Y o ) ( o Y o ) ( o Y o ) ( o Y o ) ( o Y o ) ( o Y o ) ( o Y o ) ( o Y o ) ( o Y o ) ( o Y o ) ( o Y o )
The world would be a better place if boobies ran the world instead of boobs. |
xxxTRUSTxxx
Galactic Rangers R O G U E
129
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Posted - 2013.03.16 12:32:00 -
[208] - Quote
I don't wish to share my details nor my network.
give us an off button in the options of the launcher for torrents i will not be allowing uploads from my network.
I'll stick with the HTML download I've always used thanks.
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Dyvim Slorm
Spaceriders Inc.
114
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Posted - 2013.03.16 12:43:00 -
[209] - Quote
xxxTRUSTxxx wrote:I don't wish to share my details nor my network.
give us an off button in the options of the launcher for torrents i will not be allowing uploads from my network.
I'll stick with the HTML download I've always used thanks.
Pretty much my view as well |
Stray Bullets
Perkone Caldari State
15
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Posted - 2013.03.16 12:50:00 -
[210] - Quote
Primary This Rifter wrote:Wodensun wrote:Primary This Rifter wrote:Malifae wrote:By design, the Bit Torrent protocol exposes the IP address of every peer to which you send or receive data, regardless of any encryption. Sounds like a great mechanism for someone to compile a database of IP addresses of known EVE players. I can't imagine anyone would ever do something nefarious with that information.
Yeah. What exactly do you expect someone to do with your IP address? DoS. DDoS. Exploiting your Router/Modem. Possibly Man in the Middle attacks. Messing with your EvE client since we know what ports it listens on. I might be able to think of more but i'd need to run a nmap vs your IP first... Which incidentally was handed to me by CCP... None of which anyone on the internet who was determined to exploit couldn't exploit without using a bittorrent client. My point is that the torrent doesn't provide any vulnerabilities that aren't already there.
It does provide any ill intention'd subject with a list of IP addresses that are known to run the EVE client. Basically, you're getting a very narrow list of people to scan down for vulnerabilities. These vulnerabilities are, at the moment, secure by obscurity. |
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