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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 29 post(s) |
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CCP Guard
C C P C C P Alliance
3405
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Posted - 2013.03.11 15:31:00 -
[1] - Quote
CCP Aporia and friends are working on the launcher and how updates are delivered to your EVE client. Please check out their latest dev blog right here and don't hesitate to launch your comments and questions our way! CCP Guard | EVE Community Developer |-á@ccp_guard |
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Aethlyn
EVE University Ivy League
194
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Posted - 2013.03.11 15:40:00 -
[2] - Quote
Sounds interesting. I just hope you include your own torrent handling and don't use any abomination such as that dreaded Pando Media Booster. :)
Also, I'd suggest by default the launcher should ask on first start, whether it should use bittorrent connections or just classic HTTP, because at least in Germany, some ISPs (like universities or some mobile providers) don't like to see P2P traffic and will rightout block, slowdown or sanctionize it (e.g. by cutting your internet access if there're too high P2P Transfers). Always think of unaware/non-savy computer users/players. Looking for more thoughts? Read http://aethlyn.blogspot.com/ or follow me on http://twitter.com/Aethlyn. |
Inquisitor Kitchner
Galaxy Punks Executive Outcomes
871
|
Posted - 2013.03.11 15:40:00 -
[3] - Quote
I literally didn't get most of that dev blog or it's meaning, other then the impression EVE will now be found on Pirate Bay. "If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared." - Niccolo Machiavelli |
aerionx
SONS of LEGION RISE of LEGION
0
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Posted - 2013.03.11 15:40:00 -
[4] - Quote
I think this is a good change, so many other games use it, its tried and tested :D |
Turelus
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve The Fourth District
276
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Posted - 2013.03.11 15:41:00 -
[5] - Quote
Will you still offer a non bit-torrent option for people who's ISP's cap all P2P transfers? "Don't count on others for help. In the end each of us is in this alone. The survivors are those who know how to look out for themselves." |
Regat Kozovv
Alcothology
25
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Posted - 2013.03.11 15:43:00 -
[6] - Quote
Totally fine with using Bittorrent, and helping seed is fine. As Aethlyn mentioned though, please leave some functionality open though so we can throttle/block connections if we're in an environment that requires it. |
Wodensun
ZeroSec
58
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Posted - 2013.03.11 15:43:00 -
[7] - Quote
When using bittorrent doesnt this mean that anybody with a wireshark install can capture all IPs currently connected to the cloud and use this in a more targetted attack against EvE players?
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Pak Narhoo
Splinter Foundation
914
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Posted - 2013.03.11 15:43:00 -
[8] - Quote
Never, ever had any trouble with the Mac launcher. Cept missing some stuff the windows users have (tools).
So where's CCP Casqade, I thought he was heading this in the past? |
Tribal Solidarity
Bite Me inc
36
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Posted - 2013.03.11 15:44:00 -
[9] - Quote
So, while I agree with the issues of using HTTP/1.1, I disagree with the torrent protocol usage.
Tons of ISPs in the UK restrict torrent client usage, as do universities and businesses, making it much harder for people to patch.
And how long will you keep seeding the data on your servers before requiring people to download a full client?
Also, I personally have downloaded patches directly from the server and applied them after download, outside of waiting for the patcher to complete. I haven't done this for a while so it may not be possible but it was a great way of bypassing your servers being swamped on patch day by using mirrors.
And finally, can you guarantee the same throughput/speed of using bittorrent over HTTP/1.1? Or are we looking at ridiculously slow speeds? |
SamuraiJack
Sacred Templars Unclaimed.
27
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Posted - 2013.03.11 15:44:00 -
[10] - Quote
Quote:However, there are ways to limit this, and by default the new EVE Launcher will only make you share the data required for installing the client while you are downloading; once your download is complete you will not be distributing it to others, unless you explicitly enable this in the options GÇô after all it might be useful for sharing the installation across your local network. We are also, by default, limiting the upload rate so that it should not affect your normal internet usage.
That alone makes CCP's implementation of this much better than most Torrent installers. Flooding out your upstream just throttles your connection as you cannot send commands due to data floods. Shame Blizzard never took that onboard. SJ's Chronicles - http://www.fanfiction.net/u/2103579/CLS-SamuraiJack |
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SamuraiJack
Sacred Templars Unclaimed.
30
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Posted - 2013.03.11 15:45:00 -
[11] - Quote
Oh and for the love of god. put the "Patchnotes" link back on the launcher. Its murder to find on the site. SJ's Chronicles - http://www.fanfiction.net/u/2103579/CLS-SamuraiJack |
Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E.
1678
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Posted - 2013.03.11 15:45:00 -
[12] - Quote
I know nothing about torrents, and have never used them. Will that be an issue, or will this all be transparent to me? Ive heard that many users are getting client freezes when a torrent is running while playing Eve. The solution is to not have a torrent running. But if it becomes a requirement....well, will it just be client freeze after freeze? http://vincentoneve.wordpress.com/ |
Dav Varan
Spiritus Draconis Sicarius Draconis
4
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Posted - 2013.03.11 15:47:00 -
[13] - Quote
We pay you to provide the eve service.
You should be sending out the eve data from servers you pay for not stealing bandwidth off customers. disgraceful.
Is ccp having funding issues ?
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Turelus
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve The Fourth District
277
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Posted - 2013.03.11 15:48:00 -
[14] - Quote
SamuraiJack wrote:Oh and for the love of god. put the "Patchnotes" link back on the launcher. Its murder to find on the site. This! or better yet, LIST THE PATCH NOTES ON THE LAUNCHER LIKE EVERY OTHER GAME !!! (click a dev blog link and it's on the sidebar) "Don't count on others for help. In the end each of us is in this alone. The survivors are those who know how to look out for themselves." |
Salpad
Carebears with Attitude
319
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Posted - 2013.03.11 15:49:00 -
[15] - Quote
Just a random idea, but why should upload stop the exact moment that a particular customer's Launcher has finished downloading? Why not continue uploading for a small period of time after that, as an automated setting, such as 90 minutes? Or if not as an automated setting, then as a user-configurable option?
I'd not want to have upload available all the time, but something like the duration of my download plus X minutes would be an option that I'd be happy to utilize.
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CCP Aporia
C C P C C P Alliance
36
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Posted - 2013.03.11 15:49:00 -
[16] - Quote
Aethlyn wrote:Sounds interesting. I just hope you include your own torrent handling and don't use any abomination such as that dreaded Pando Media Booster. :)
Also, I'd suggest by default the launcher should ask on first start, whether it should use bittorrent connections or just classic HTTP, because at least in Germany, some ISPs (like universities or some mobile providers) don't like to see P2P traffic and will rightout block, slowdown or sanctionize it (e.g. by cutting your internet access if there're too high P2P Transfers). Always think of unaware/non-savy computer users/players.
We are not using Pando Media Booster or anything like that. The launcher is using it's own mechanism, which is based on a publically available torrent client library. By default it will use HTTP as transport as well as BitTorrent, so you should be all good even when you cannot use any P2P traffic. This is also one of the reasons why we want to bring it to a test server near you soon, so that we can gain more experience with how the mechanism would perform for people behind restrictive firewalls / ISPs. Senior Programmer Team Avatar |
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Karl Mattar
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve The Fourth District
2
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Posted - 2013.03.11 15:50:00 -
[17] - Quote
Is there any way you can set the launcher to launch multiple eve windows for those of us who run two (or more) accounts at the same time? Configurable with different settings for monitors?
I have two monitors. They are different sizes. It is quite the pain to start everything up because the settings don't hold over from session to session. Whichever session I closed last is how it all starts up again.
Otherwise, I have no issues with this proposal at all. |
Sable Moran
Moran Light Industries
128
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Posted - 2013.03.11 15:51:00 -
[18] - Quote
I never have had any reliability problems with the launcher. I guess my ISP know their stuff.
The issue I have with it is the slowness of the first phase (1/4) of the update where it calculates the patch to download. This is especially compounded on small patches e.g. the last Retribution 1.1.6 patch. Roughly 90% of the patching time was spent on calculating the patch then 5% downloading it and another 5% applying it.
If there's anything you can do about that I would appreciate it. Malcanis for CSM 8 Sable's Ammo Shop at Alentene V - Moon 4 - Duvolle Labs Factory. Hybrid charges, Projectile ammo, Missiles, Drones, Ships, Need'em? We have'em, at affordable prices. Pop in at our Ammo Shop in sunny Alentene. |
Bloodpetal
Sal's Waste Management and Pod Disposal The Mockers AO
1227
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Posted - 2013.03.11 15:52:00 -
[19] - Quote
Are you going to have back up protocols for the Torrent in cases where Torrent is not available?
Seems like most companies do have backups even if it's "slower".
Where I am. |
Lili Lu
715
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Posted - 2013.03.11 15:52:00 -
[20] - Quote
I'm not very techno proficient. But I have not had any problems with the launcher and patching. I did have problems with the client freezing. But in the 2nd most recent major patch it seemed to have fixed itself. Possibly either the eve patch or maybe the latest nvidia driver update. Don't know, just happy it's fixed.
As for bit torrent. Don't like this. I suspect it will mean I have to pay for some third party program just to update eve. Your launcher is doing fine by me. So please don't make use of another program mandatory.
If I'm not understanding all this then just ignore. But really I don't want to download and pay for another program just to patch and play eve. Thanks |
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Tarsas Phage
Freight Club
138
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Posted - 2013.03.11 15:53:00 -
[21] - Quote
Dav Varan wrote:We pay you to provide the eve service.
You should be sending out the eve data from servers you pay for not stealing bandwidth off customers. disgraceful.
Is ccp having funding issues ?
The issues this change addresses are technical in nature. Without understanding the problem from a technical perspective, it's highly unlikely that you'll understand the fix for it. You should consider this thought before posting next time. |
Bloodpetal
Sal's Waste Management and Pod Disposal The Mockers AO
1227
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Posted - 2013.03.11 15:54:00 -
[22] - Quote
SamuraiJack wrote:Oh and for the love of god. put the "Patchnotes" link back on the launcher. Its murder to find on the site. This... Where I am. |
l0rd carlos
Friends Of Harassment
346
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Posted - 2013.03.11 15:55:00 -
[23] - Quote
Can you change the default patch download dir to something global? Right now i need to manually copy&paste to every client :S (Or use the export/import function wish is even worse) Also one client that supports multiple eve windows with different settings would be SUPER! German blog about smallscale lowsec pvp: http://friendsofharassment.wordpress.com |
Remiel Pollard
Intergalactic Trade and Harm
1408
|
Posted - 2013.03.11 15:55:00 -
[24] - Quote
I can see problems with using BitTorrent straight away, particularly for those of us in Australia on Telstra. If the traffic is encrypted, though, it's easy to bypass. You don't scare me. I've been to Jita. |
Dersen Lowery
Laurentson INC StructureDamage
458
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Posted - 2013.03.11 15:58:00 -
[25] - Quote
Bloodpetal wrote:Are you going to have back up protocols for the Torrent in cases where Torrent is not available?
Seems like most companies do have backups even if it's "slower".
The backup seems to be HTTP 1.1. Malcanis, Ripard Teg, and Trebor Daehdoow for CSM 8
(I have three accounts, so why not?) |
Remiel Pollard
Intergalactic Trade and Harm
1408
|
Posted - 2013.03.11 16:00:00 -
[26] - Quote
CCP Aporia wrote:Aethlyn wrote:Sounds interesting. I just hope you include your own torrent handling and don't use any abomination such as that dreaded Pando Media Booster. :)
Also, I'd suggest by default the launcher should ask on first start, whether it should use bittorrent connections or just classic HTTP, because at least in Germany, some ISPs (like universities or some mobile providers) don't like to see P2P traffic and will rightout block, slowdown or sanctionize it (e.g. by cutting your internet access if there're too high P2P Transfers). Always think of unaware/non-savy computer users/players. We are not using Pando Media Booster or anything like that. The launcher is using it's own mechanism, which is based on a publically available torrent client library. By default it will use HTTP as transport as well as BitTorrent, so you should be all good even when you cannot use any P2P traffic. This is also one of the reasons why we want to bring it to a test server near you soon, so that we can gain more experience with how the mechanism would perform for people behind restrictive firewalls / ISPs.
As far as I'm aware, if P2P traffic is encrypted, ISP's can't read it as P2P traffic and cannot throttle it. If you use data encryption, it should work fine. You don't scare me. I've been to Jita. |
Zaknussem
Everybody Loves Donuts
25
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Posted - 2013.03.11 16:01:00 -
[27] - Quote
SamuraiJack wrote:Oh and for the love of god. put the "Patchnotes" link back on the launcher. Its murder to find on the site.
You mean to tell me that it was there, but it was removed?
Why? |
Charles Javeroux
INTERSTELLAR CREDIT Interstellar Trade Syndicate
52
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Posted - 2013.03.11 16:02:00 -
[28] - Quote
I find the lack of graphs in this devblog disturbing |
Aethlyn
EVE University Ivy League
197
|
Posted - 2013.03.11 16:03:00 -
[29] - Quote
SamuraiJack wrote:That alone makes CCP's implementation of this much better than most Torrent installers. Flooding out your upstream just throttles your connection as you cannot send commands due to data floods. Shame Blizzard never took that onboard. From my experience over the past years, I really think that's intentional and not just happens: Your download slows down as you Approach 99% and the last few bytes take forever (at least for me; not talking about SC2/D3 patching; only their standalone torrent stuff). Once your sharing ratio approaches 1.0 the last few bytes are completed. Something like that is really stupid, especially for people on asynchronous lines (e.g. my upstream is less than 10% of my downstream). Luckily you could trick their implementation by simply restarting the client. Looking for more thoughts? Read http://aethlyn.blogspot.com/ or follow me on http://twitter.com/Aethlyn. |
Remiel Pollard
Intergalactic Trade and Harm
1408
|
Posted - 2013.03.11 16:04:00 -
[30] - Quote
Tarsas Phage wrote:Dav Varan wrote:We pay you to provide the eve service.
You should be sending out the eve data from servers you pay for not stealing bandwidth off customers. disgraceful.
Is ccp having funding issues ?
The issues this change addresses are technical in nature. Without understanding the problem from a technical perspective, it's highly unlikely that you'll understand the fix for it. You should consider this thought before posting next time.
I don't think he even read the full blog. The lower half directly addresses this concern. But I wasn't going to respond to him, either. I find it too tiresome to feed the trolls these days. You don't scare me. I've been to Jita. |
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Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
1203
|
Posted - 2013.03.11 16:06:00 -
[31] - Quote
Karl Mattar wrote:Is there any way you can set the launcher to launch multiple eve windows for those of us who run two (or more) accounts at the same time? Configurable with different settings for monitors?
I have two monitors. They are different sizes. It is quite the pain to start everything up because the settings don't hold over from session to session. Whichever session I closed last is how it all starts up again.
Otherwise, I have no issues with this proposal at all.
While it's not quite what you're asking for, the junction method works pretty well for this, without using additional space.
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Multiple_clients FuzzWork Enterprises http://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/ Blueprint calculator, invention chance calculator, isk/m3 Ore chart-á and other 'useful' utilities.As well as mysql and CSV/XLS conversions of the Static Data Extract. |
Aethlyn
EVE University Ivy League
197
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Posted - 2013.03.11 16:09:00 -
[32] - Quote
Remiel Pollard wrote:As far as I'm aware, if P2P traffic is encrypted, ISP's can't read it as P2P traffic and cannot throttle it. If you use data encryption, it should work fine. Unfortunately, it's not that easy. There are still obvious things happening like high upload and (possibly) many outbound connections at the same time. Also encryption slows down the whole thing and makes it more CPU intensive, because the data has to be en-/decrypted as well. A simple toggle to select the download strategy is a lot easier to implement and use (even if you only use HTTP you still get the error checking, file verification, etc.). Looking for more thoughts? Read http://aethlyn.blogspot.com/ or follow me on http://twitter.com/Aethlyn. |
Sentient Blade
Walk It Off
814
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Posted - 2013.03.11 16:10:00 -
[33] - Quote
While you're working on the launcher how about using good ol SetForegroundWindow to bring the old launcher to the front when you try to launch a new launcher and an existing launcher is still launched. Rather than that pain in the ass error message. |
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CCP Aporia
C C P C C P Alliance
37
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Posted - 2013.03.11 16:10:00 -
[34] - Quote
Turelus wrote:Will you still offer a non bit-torrent option for people who's ISP's cap all P2P transfers?
Yes, HTTP will still be utilized. Senior Programmer Team Avatar |
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CCP Aporia
C C P C C P Alliance
37
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Posted - 2013.03.11 16:12:00 -
[35] - Quote
Salpad wrote:Just a random idea, but why should upload stop the exact moment that a particular customer's Launcher has finished downloading? Why not continue uploading for a small period of time after that, as an automated setting, such as 90 minutes? Or if not as an automated setting, then as a user-configurable option?
I'd not want to have upload available all the time, but something like the duration of my download plus X minutes would be an option that I'd be happy to utilize.
By default you only upload while you download, at a fairly low rate. If you want you can check an option that makes you seed for longer. Good idea about maybe adding a timer to this in the future, but for right now we'd like to see this go out and work in the wild before making further changes. Senior Programmer Team Avatar |
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Phext
SIGBUS
0
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Posted - 2013.03.11 16:18:00 -
[36] - Quote
Remiel Pollard wrote:As far as I'm aware, if P2P traffic is encrypted, ISP's can't read it as P2P traffic and cannot throttle it. If you use data encryption, it should work fine.
ISPs may throttle well known BT port ranges (TCP 6881-6889 is used for transport). They don't necessarily need to look into the traffic. One may bypass this throttling by using different port ranges. |
Wodensun
ZeroSec
60
|
Posted - 2013.03.11 16:20:00 -
[37] - Quote
Remiel Pollard wrote: As far as I'm aware, if P2P traffic is encrypted, ISP's can't read it as P2P traffic and cannot throttle it. If you use data encryption, it should work fine.
That is not entirely acurate
Quote:Trackers manage files by their SHA-1 (aka infohash). The extension specifies that a tracker RC4-encrypt the peer list with a key of SHA-1(infohash). Thus, a peer must know the infohash of the file they are requesting to decrypt the peer list. Obviously, they have the infohash since they had to know it to look up the file in the first place.
There are a couple weaknesses in this design. If an ISP can read the infohash from the peerGÇÖs tracker connection, then they can also decrypt the peer list. This is mitigated by some trackers supporting SSL connections. Also, the specification allows for reuse of the RC4 keystream, a definite no-no.
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Wodensun
ZeroSec
60
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Posted - 2013.03.11 16:22:00 -
[38] - Quote
Phext wrote:Remiel Pollard wrote:As far as I'm aware, if P2P traffic is encrypted, ISP's can't read it as P2P traffic and cannot throttle it. If you use data encryption, it should work fine. ISPs may throttle well known BT port ranges (TCP 6881-6889 is used for transport). They don't necessarily need to look into the traffic. One may bypass this throttling by using different port ranges.
Bollocks they use DPI for traffic shaping not port ranges.
Quote:Deep Packet Inspection (DPI) (also called complete packet inspection and Information eXtraction - IX -) is a form of computer network packet filtering that examines the data part (and possibly also the header) of a packet as it passes an inspection point, searching for protocol non-compliance, viruses, spam, intrusions, or defined criteria to decide whether the packet may pass or if it needs to be routed to a different destination, or, for the purpose of collecting statistical information. |
TheNewestTwin
Avalon Project Shadow Rock Alliance
23
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Posted - 2013.03.11 16:25:00 -
[39] - Quote
Why don't they change their team name from Team Special Circumstances to Team AAA seeing as the names of the people in this team all start with the letter A. CCP Aporia, CCP Atropos, CCP Aita.... please
-A- |
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
1585
|
Posted - 2013.03.11 16:26:00 -
[40] - Quote
Aethlyn wrote:SamuraiJack wrote:That alone makes CCP's implementation of this much better than most Torrent installers. Flooding out your upstream just throttles your connection as you cannot send commands due to data floods. Shame Blizzard never took that onboard. From my experience over the past years, I really think that's intentional and not just happens: Your download slows down as you Approach 99% and the last few bytes take forever (at least for me; not talking about SC2/D3 patching; only their standalone torrent stuff). Once your sharing ratio approaches 1.0 the last few bytes are completed. Something like that is really stupid, especially for people on asynchronous lines (e.g. my upstream is less than 10% of my downstream). Luckily you could trick their implementation by simply restarting the client.
this isn't the fault of the protocol, its the client. Clients try to maintain 1.0 share ratio to keep the network healthy. In CCPs case its entirely different. The network is always healthy since CCP will obviously keep the servers up which upload 24/7.
maybe i am wrong but i don't think that CCP wants to use bittorrent because they have bandwidth issues on patch day - it really sounds like all they want is a more reliable protocol. a eve-style bounty system (done)-á dust boarding parties You fail you fail you fail you fail to jump because you are cloaked |
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CCP Aporia
C C P C C P Alliance
38
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Posted - 2013.03.11 16:26:00 -
[41] - Quote
Tribal Solidarity wrote:So, while I agree with the issues of using HTTP/1.1, I disagree with the torrent protocol usage.
Tons of ISPs in the UK restrict torrent client usage, as do universities and businesses, making it much harder for people to patch.
And how long will you keep seeding the data on your servers before requiring people to download a full client?
Also, I personally have downloaded patches directly from the server and applied them after download, outside of waiting for the patcher to complete. I haven't done this for a while so it may not be possible but it was a great way of bypassing your servers being swamped on patch day by using mirrors.
And finally, can you guarantee the same throughput/speed of using bittorrent over HTTP/1.1? Or are we looking at ridiculously slow speeds?
Let me start by addressing your previous question:
Bittorrent over HTTP/1.1 should have the same speed as normal HTTP transfers because it is actually "just" the range-header implementation. Bittorrent over HTTP/1.0 depends a little bit on the webserver implementation because there the range-header is emualted using the querystring and the server then has to figure out which parts to send using a custom request handler. But for most real world scenarios I would not expect a big difference in throughput, if any.
The other part is probably more interesting and I should probably have addressed this in the blog itself: You are no longer downloading an installer for the EVE client or it's updates. Instead when you start the launcher, the launcher checks if there was a new EVE version released and if so, it downloads the files it needs to acquire. Since we will always keep the most recent EVE version on the CDN this will make sure that your installation is always up to date. The times of downloading a full client should be gone unless you are installing EVE for the first time, in which case the download is actually a lot bigger than before. But we are looking into utilizing compression methods there, and in the longer run plan on organizing the client resources in a way that a new player can go and use the character creator while the game is still installing all the space assets. Every update in itself kind of works like the repair tool used to work (which is now simply forcing a re-check of your installation against the information found in the torrent file), e.g. the launcher figures out which files in your installation need an update and only downloads these files then. In the long run this should save on traffic required for updates as well because there is no longer any need for the whole overhead of having an installer executable. Senior Programmer Team Special Circumstances |
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Kasuko
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
5
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Posted - 2013.03.11 16:29:00 -
[42] - Quote
I am whole heartedly in agreement with this change! Please CCP do it!
Now with that said I would like to point out that I am behind an ISP that fully throttles ALL P2P traffic and I still want this change.
Bit Torrent is a fully legal, hugely supported and open protocol. Because ISPs throttle this traffic shouldn't affect your decision. If my ISP suddenly throttled Youtube traffic I wouldn't call up Google and demand they implement a different protocol I'd phone my ISP and say "I am a paying customer and I am paying for internet, so please stop preventing my access to the internet!"
If more and more companies are using Bit Torrent in a completely legal way and more and more people call their ISPs saying "Excuse me but your crappy service that I pay for doesn't allow me to do the things that I am paying for" then they will learn their lesson!
Thank you CCP and be sure to use the open standards for Bit Torrent and don't go mutilating it and destroying all the work the community has done!
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CCP Guard
C C P C C P Alliance
3407
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Posted - 2013.03.11 16:30:00 -
[43] - Quote
I put a link to this dev blog in the launcher so there is now a launcher dev blog...in the launcher. I'll just leave you with this bit of knowledge.
CCP Guard | EVE Community Developer |-á@ccp_guard |
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CCP Aporia
C C P C C P Alliance
38
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Posted - 2013.03.11 16:32:00 -
[44] - Quote
Bienator II wrote:Aethlyn wrote:SamuraiJack wrote:That alone makes CCP's implementation of this much better than most Torrent installers. Flooding out your upstream just throttles your connection as you cannot send commands due to data floods. Shame Blizzard never took that onboard. From my experience over the past years, I really think that's intentional and not just happens: Your download slows down as you Approach 99% and the last few bytes take forever (at least for me; not talking about SC2/D3 patching; only their standalone torrent stuff). Once your sharing ratio approaches 1.0 the last few bytes are completed. Something like that is really stupid, especially for people on asynchronous lines (e.g. my upstream is less than 10% of my downstream). Luckily you could trick their implementation by simply restarting the client. this isn't the fault of the protocol, its the client. Clients try to maintain 1.0 share ratio to keep the network healthy. In CCPs case its entirely different. The network is always healthy since CCP will obviously keep the servers up which upload 24/7. maybe i am wrong but i don't think that CCP wants to use bittorrent because they have bandwidth issues on patch day - it really sounds like all they want is a more reliable protocol.
You are correct, what we wanted is a more reliable and flexible protocol. Of course, if people want to share as well then that would be great. But we intentionally do not make it a requirement; once you are done downloading you are not seeding unless you want to. And if you are seeding, then always at a speed that you control. Senior Programmer Team Special Circumstances |
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Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises Otherworld Empire
7379
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Posted - 2013.03.11 16:33:00 -
[45] - Quote
Finally, took some time to implement BT... I hope you do include support for web peers with that (how I do over at EVE-Files) for those that may get blocked by various firewall or IDS software.
/c
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Sentient Blade
Walk It Off
814
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Posted - 2013.03.11 16:37:00 -
[46] - Quote
Another thing which would help for updating would be pre-release updates.
By that I mean if you're going to go sending out hundreds of MB to a hundred thousand people in the next days patch, then publish it a day or two before, let us be downloading it to a staging directory, and then apply it as necessary (plus any other changes) come patch day.
It would also give the torrent network time to spread itself out. |
Sarmatiko
952
|
Posted - 2013.03.11 16:56:00 -
[47] - Quote
And what about Launcher 1.4x with integrated login/advanced client settings? This has been used on Serenity for some time but there is no plans to use it on TQ anymore?
|
Doublewhopper
The Revelation Crew DarkStorm Enterprises
12
|
Posted - 2013.03.11 17:00:00 -
[48] - Quote
Just be sure it works on wine/linux/mac before you even consider to deploy it.
The release of the original launcher did not go to well for everyone and brought much trouble, tinkering and confusion. |
|
CCP Aporia
C C P C C P Alliance
40
|
Posted - 2013.03.11 17:10:00 -
[49] - Quote
Sarmatiko wrote:And what about Launcher 1.4x with integrated login/advanced client settings? This has been used on Serenity for some time but there is no plans to use it on TQ anymore?
This is currently on ice until we are done with more pressing aspects. Eventually we would like to see the launcher managing all your EVE installations and no longer have the "one launcher per installation" as it currently is the case.
Doublewhopper wrote:Just be sure it works on wine/linux/mac before you even consider to deploy it.
The release of the original launcher did not go to well for everyone and brought much trouble, tinkering and confusion.
The internal tests on Mac looked good so far, but again, this is one reason why we are going to run a test in the wild soon. Wine/Linux are not on the list of officially support platforms, so I cannot say anything about whether it works there or not. Senior Programmer Team Special Circumstances |
|
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CCP Atropos
C C P C C P Alliance
181
|
Posted - 2013.03.11 17:10:00 -
[50] - Quote
On this note:
Doublewhopper wrote:Just be sure it works on wine/linux/mac before you even consider to deploy it.
The release of the original launcher did not go to well for everyone and brought much trouble, tinkering and confusion.
I've been running a beta test on the Mac subforum for the last 3 months, testing some of these changes. Product Owner, EVE Launcher | Team Special Circumstances |
|
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Hannott Thanos
Notorious Legion
439
|
Posted - 2013.03.11 17:13:00 -
[51] - Quote
Lili Lu wrote:I'm not very techno proficient. But I have not had any problems with the launcher and patching. I did have problems with the client freezing. But in the 2nd most recent major patch it seemed to have fixed itself. Possibly either the eve patch or maybe the latest nvidia driver update. Don't know, just happy it's fixed.
As for bit torrent. Don't like this. I suspect it will mean I have to pay for some third party program just to update eve. Your launcher is doing fine by me. So please don't make use of another program mandatory.
If I'm not understanding all this then just ignore. But really I don't want to download and pay for another program just to patch and play eve. Thanks Just to settle your mind, bit torrent is a way of transferring bits, not a specific type of software. You wouldn't need -¦Torrent or any kind of software, the Eve Launcher would just send and receive data by other means behind the curtains |
Sedilis
Lead Farmers Kill It With Fire
74
|
Posted - 2013.03.11 17:14:00 -
[52] - Quote
With the support for the Test server I hope this includes a button people click to build a test server install. Would be great if you could get it to launch and start the log server as well if connected to sisi.
I'm sure giving that some love would help with numbers for your mass tests as well as helping us guy out who have to try and talk members though setting up a Sisi client for our own testing. |
T1nyMan
Interstellar Solutions Agency
41
|
Posted - 2013.03.11 17:22:00 -
[53] - Quote
yarda yarda yarda sweet! yarda yarda yarda yarda relax yarda yarda yarda yarda everyone yarda yarda yarda there's yarda no yarda conspiracy yarda yarda yawn..
[cough]
...
yarda |
Aethlyn
EVE University Ivy League
199
|
Posted - 2013.03.11 17:25:00 -
[54] - Quote
Bienator II wrote:Aethlyn wrote:SamuraiJack wrote:That alone makes CCP's implementation of this much better than most Torrent installers. Flooding out your upstream just throttles your connection as you cannot send commands due to data floods. Shame Blizzard never took that onboard. From my experience over the past years, I really think that's intentional and not just happens: Your download slows down as you Approach 99% and the last few bytes take forever (at least for me; not talking about SC2/D3 patching; only their standalone torrent stuff). Once your sharing ratio approaches 1.0 the last few bytes are completed. Something like that is really stupid, especially for people on asynchronous lines (e.g. my upstream is less than 10% of my downstream). Luckily you could trick their implementation by simply restarting the client. this isn't the fault of the protocol, its the client. Clients try to maintain 1.0 share ratio to keep the network healthy. In CCPs case its entirely different. The network is always healthy since CCP will obviously keep the servers up which upload 24/7. maybe i am wrong but i don't think that CCP wants to use bittorrent because they have bandwidth issues on patch day - it really sounds like all they want is a more reliable protocol.
Of course, it is a thing of the client. This is also something I tried to say. I know there's nothing like that in the basic protocol. Looking for more thoughts? Read http://aethlyn.blogspot.com/ or follow me on http://twitter.com/Aethlyn. |
Antihrist Pripravnik
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
80
|
Posted - 2013.03.11 17:26:00 -
[55] - Quote
Yaay :) I used to download major releases through Chribba's torrents anyway, so it's nothing new for me. CCP Ytterbium: Yarrblblbgrlblbgrlblblblbblbgrlblblbgrblblyarrrrdrooooooolonthekeyboardlikealunatic |
Rael Datannen
JesusChrist Lord Way Truth Life
0
|
Posted - 2013.03.11 17:28:00 -
[56] - Quote
Inquisitor Kitchner (Page1) I agree. I Urge our beloved DEV to listen to us, past CSM roleplay, and leave us an OPTION to use new BITT or stay with HTTP. I feel very strongly on this, being an online game admin/coder since 1990.
(**Added afterthought: READ CLOSELY there are risks, and ways to --REDUCE-- them, so don't make all Eve players subject to Cyberwar Attack than we already are, for Heavens sake**) |
Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E.
1678
|
Posted - 2013.03.11 17:38:00 -
[57] - Quote
CCP Atropos wrote:On this note: Doublewhopper wrote:Just be sure it works on wine/linux/mac before you even consider to deploy it.
The release of the original launcher did not go to well for everyone and brought much trouble, tinkering and confusion. I've been running a beta test on the Mac subforum for the last 3 months, testing some of these changes. Oh, thats part of that test? OK, Im going to run the beta version at the same time as I run the current TQ client and see what happens. http://vincentoneve.wordpress.com/ |
Demolishar
United Aggression
835
|
Posted - 2013.03.11 18:08:00 -
[58] - Quote
Firstly, I know nothing about how any of this works.
But surely this opens avenues of attack for the p2p transfer of "bad" files eg. .exe with keylogger and stuff? |
SamuraiJack
Sacred Templars Unclaimed.
35
|
Posted - 2013.03.11 18:16:00 -
[59] - Quote
Demolishar wrote:Firstly, I know nothing about how any of this works.
But surely this opens avenues of attack for the p2p transfer of "bad" files eg. .exe with keylogger and stuff?
No. It doesnt. Stop believing the crap that the media mafia spew.
All the files will be sorted and inspected by ccp and they are checksummed. the client handles it and as such will not be able to "infect" you this way. Despite the fact you will be "copying" files from other pcs they will be checked via ccp's list and dropped if tampered with.
Bittorrent is legit and safe. (as long as you use legit torrents) SJ's Chronicles - http://www.fanfiction.net/u/2103579/CLS-SamuraiJack |
Ryunosuke Kusanagi
58
|
Posted - 2013.03.11 18:29:00 -
[60] - Quote
a serious concern here in the US.
With CAS/Six Strikes rolled out, and obviously already claiming false positives on LEGAL files, how can i possibly be affected with EVE Online files essentially "Copyrighted material". I don't really want to start a political debate here, but politics in the US are veering towards the technophobe stage, if it hasn't already, and it is affecting P2P network traffic among other things. |
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James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
4361
|
Posted - 2013.03.11 18:38:00 -
[61] - Quote
Ryunosuke Kusanagi wrote:a serious concern here in the US.
With CAS/Six Strikes rolled out, and obviously already claiming false positives on LEGAL files, how can i possibly be affected with EVE Online files essentially "Copyrighted material". I don't really want to start a political debate here, but politics in the US are veering towards the technophobe stage, if it hasn't already, and it is affecting P2P network traffic among other things. Well you can make an appeal at the cost of $35 and state that the copyright owner gave you permission to distribute the material (and if CCP's legal team is at all present and competent they will have such clauses up). If your appeal is successful you get your $35 back and whatever sanctions you had will be lifted.
Of course this is all at the mercy of THEIR chosen arbitrator and you don't get a second appeal... Malcanis for CSM 8 Module activation timers are buggy - CCP please fix |
Sturmwolke
382
|
Posted - 2013.03.11 18:42:00 -
[62] - Quote
You know ...... I fell down laughing. The EVE community has been berating CCP for YEARS on this, and you've finally seen the light. Now back then, who was the wiseguy that went the other way?
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Vera Algaert
Republic University Minmatar Republic
842
|
Posted - 2013.03.11 18:51:00 -
[63] - Quote
my router crashes if I have more than 10-12 active connections, so I hope we will be able to limit the connection count or force HTTP (as other games allow the user to do). TEST alt - don't trust. |
Sentient Blade
Walk It Off
815
|
Posted - 2013.03.11 18:55:00 -
[64] - Quote
Vera Algaert wrote:my router crashes if I have more than 10-12 active connections, so I hope we will be able to limit the connection count or force HTTP (as other games allow the user to do).
You really need a new router. Only 12 connections is ridiculous. |
Beness
Nictus X Initiative Mercenaries
0
|
Posted - 2013.03.11 18:56:00 -
[65] - Quote
Ryunosuke Kusanagi wrote:a serious concern here in the US.
With CAS/Six Strikes rolled out, and obviously already claiming false positives on LEGAL files, how can i possibly be affected with EVE Online files essentially "Copyrighted material". I don't really want to start a political debate here, but politics in the US are veering towards the technophobe stage, if it hasn't already, and it is affecting P2P network traffic among other things.
CAS/Six Strikes works as follows:
- Monitoring company joins public swarm
- Monitoring company determines which IPs are uploading files which match the hash of copyright files
- Monitoring company contacts ISP and informs which IPs are sharing copyright files.
Since the launcher is going to be running on an effectively private swarm, the monitoring company won't join it. CCP can implement checks to make sure that only launchers are talking on the swarm, technically.
This also addresses an earlier poster, who was concerned about malicious files being shared. Since CCP is the only one putting files into the swarm, malicious files could only be injected if CCP were compromised. This is the same situation we're in right now - if someone attacks CCP and puts bad files on the patch server, your launcher will download them.
Actually, the use of BitTorrent (and its hash-checking) means that even if CCP is compromised, your launcher may notice that the files "look" wrong and prevent their execution - the same mechanism in BitTorrent that protects against file corruption also prevents the wrong file from being used. |
SamuraiJack
Sacred Templars Unclaimed.
38
|
Posted - 2013.03.11 19:13:00 -
[66] - Quote
Then start voting out your politicians that are in the media mafia's pay. SJ's Chronicles - http://www.fanfiction.net/u/2103579/CLS-SamuraiJack |
Josef Djugashvilis
Acme Mining Corporation
1063
|
Posted - 2013.03.11 19:38:00 -
[67] - Quote
If you get any feedback saying that the launcher 'improvements' on not working properly, please pay attention.
My only complaint against CCP is that they tend to ignore player feedback and release things despite players pointing out obvious problems with the latest whizz bang idea.
The new inventory system and the half-baked mission drone AI are good examples of the, 'must release stuff to meet some self imposed target date rather than when it is ready' This is not a signature. |
Dalilus
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
21
|
Posted - 2013.03.11 20:03:00 -
[68] - Quote
I understand why CCP is doing this, what I don't get is why. Specially right now . |
Kiran
Knights of Azrael The Azrael Alliance
54
|
Posted - 2013.03.11 20:21:00 -
[69] - Quote
Not had a lot to do with Bit Torrents, but if we are sharing information with other Eve users wont this open our PC's up to viruses that can be installed within the Eve file system ?
So you therefore share a virus over the net to all other Eve users through the patching ? |
admiral root
Red Galaxy SpaceMonkey's Alliance
485
|
Posted - 2013.03.11 21:10:00 -
[70] - Quote
Any chance of having the launcher live in the system tray, like steam? No, your rights end in optimal+2*falloff
Vote 315 for CSM 8 |
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Liner Xiandra
Sparks Inc Zero Hour Alliance
183
|
Posted - 2013.03.11 21:40:00 -
[71] - Quote
My launcher still shows the Incarna splash-screen, just sayin'.
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Fronkfurter McSheebleton
The Graduates RAZOR Alliance
185
|
Posted - 2013.03.11 21:48:00 -
[72] - Quote
There should be an option to not use bittorrent, at all. A lot of universities will outright insta-block your connection for using any p2p technologies.
I'm not talking about simply blocking the p2p connection. I'm talking about blocking the user from accessing their network at all. Happened to me when I tried to play some koren MMO...they just assume you've made a trip to the pirate bay and cut you off. thhief ghabmoef |
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ISD Suvetar
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
1870
|
Posted - 2013.03.11 22:25:00 -
[73] - Quote
Team Special Circumstances eh ? Culture reference I hope! ISD Suvetar Captain Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department |
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45thtiger 0109
SYNDROME OF A DOWN Eternal Evocations
5
|
Posted - 2013.03.11 22:31:00 -
[74] - Quote
Hey CCP
Great job finding that a bittorrent system to download the expansion & patch.
WoT MMO uses The Bittorrent system and it works very well.
I do not get any error or problems with Bittorrent system at all when I use the WoT launcher.
|
Dances With Valkyries
0
|
Posted - 2013.03.11 22:52:00 -
[75] - Quote
Kiran wrote:Not had a lot to do with Bit Torrents, but if we are sharing information with other Eve users wont this open our PC's up to viruses that can be installed within the Eve file system ?
So you therefore share a virus over the net to all other Eve users through the patching ? I've not had much experience with BitTorrents either so I'm also interested in what checks will there be to prevent uploading modified code from other Eve users?
And don't we need to open ports in our firewalls to allow the upload? What happens if I don't do this?
|
Oxandrolone
Bite Me inc Bitten.
150
|
Posted - 2013.03.11 23:05:00 -
[76] - Quote
Can you elaborate on Quote:and support for multi-box and test-client installations.
Its not exactly a secret that many people multibox in EVE. Features such as a shared wallet between accounts, switching character without having to log in again etc would be awesome.
Having a 'master' EvE account that you can then link 'sub-accounts' to would be a massive awesome feature. Imagine if this account could have 1 API for all your needs.
Some way to automatically install the various test servers would for sure increase participation on the test-realms. |
Cheng0001
Gladius Veritatis Fidelas Constans
3
|
Posted - 2013.03.11 23:45:00 -
[77] - Quote
THIS IS IRRELEVANT T3 BATTLESHIPS GIVE US T3 BATTLESHIPS GIVE US T3 BATTLESHIPS! EXTERMINATE! |
Cpt Underpants
Goonswarm Federation
7
|
Posted - 2013.03.12 00:09:00 -
[78] - Quote
Phext wrote:Remiel Pollard wrote:As far as I'm aware, if P2P traffic is encrypted, ISP's can't read it as P2P traffic and cannot throttle it. If you use data encryption, it should work fine. ISPs may throttle well known BT port ranges (TCP 6881-6889 is used for transport). They don't necessarily need to look into the traffic. One may bypass this throttling by using different port ranges. Not easy to bypass, the way a lot of the filtering boxes work is they look at the SSL certificate used to encrypt the data. Certain data patterns are flagged as potentially P2P, it is analysed centrally and if found to be P2P the certificate itself is then used to confirm P2P and implement throttling. Next comes the issue of carrier-grade NAT which can further limit the ability to use P2P.
Also in Australia most ISPs count both uploads and downloads against our data caps. We pay for Eve Online, why should we pay more by potentially doubling the amount of data used for each update? A lot of countries have data caps, a lot of internet providers have detection for P2P to throttle or block.
Next we have the potential issues with the new USA "six-strikes" P2P policies and the equivilents in other countries. There is talk it detects all P2P traffic, not just illicit ones. Even with white-listing certain things, many people may receive warnings before the Eve launcher is exempted.
Will P2P cost CCP less than a network of content nodes? I think it will. As long as the number of CDNs is adequate and I can turn off torrenting before anything starts, I'll be happy. Lurk more - http://i39.tinypic.com/2nktoiq.gif |
DeltaPhalanx
Hordes Of Belial
6
|
Posted - 2013.03.12 00:13:00 -
[79] - Quote
Dear Launcher Team;
While I certainly support updating the launcher to use a reliable delivery method, and recognise that you will still partially support http downloads, I do not see you commenting on various other users concerns reguarding how many ISP's currently penalise peer-to-peer based traffic.
From first hand experience with my own provider, I have watched my internet connection's performance degrade severely when utilising p2p based systems to perfectly legal content delivery systems (other online games which use p2p patch delivery), and as soon as that download completes or is ended prematurely, the network returns to normal.
Will it be possible to have this updated launcher use a purely http based download, with some kind of hash/checksum verification and fully disable the torrent to avoid provider penalties? |
Proddy Scun
Renfield Inc
12
|
Posted - 2013.03.12 00:42:00 -
[80] - Quote
You do know many ISPs and networks block bittorrent - right? And corruption can occur when court ordered internet wire tapping of bittorrent is done at routers.
Also bittorrent is not particularly good at the initial mass release of large files. Until a critical mass of complete files are online as seeders -- bittorent tends to stall for lots of people as the network gets obsessed with giving everyone the first MOST available part of the file. Until a fair fraction of people have the parts you are missing you can end up just sitting in a bittorrent traffic jam. You idea of having people with complete downloads signed off of bittorrent will make this much much worse. If mapping to nearest-least busy regional server cache of client, bittorrent may or not have good available.
So I recommend you do not make BitTorrent the only launcher download protocol.
So why not design the main body of the launcher to be as protocol independent as possible? Include a toolbox of protocols. Sure launcher may have to skip/substitute some techniques as protocol features vary.
Default to bittorrent. But maybe include alternates like HTTP 1.1 as fall back solutions. Even let user select which one to use. Maybe even have bittorrent status checks on seeder/leecher ratios and availability before selecting bittorrent as default.
As one alternative protocol look at low overhead tunneling to regional distribution points that may allow you to use wrapped protocols of your choice (keep routers from stripping those pesky HTTPS range headers). After all you don't really care about encryption security, so you could probably custom code to fake the hardware/CPU intense encryption and just say its encrypted before encapsulation. Have to get regional distribution servers loaded to support that of course. |
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Proddy Scun
Renfield Inc
12
|
Posted - 2013.03.12 00:50:00 -
[81] - Quote
PS in general I think use of bittorrent is a giant step forward. Just needs a safety net for first hour of release and for when its not working at all for particular networks/users.
Plus if you design launcher with eye to the future, you realize bittorrent may not always be king of file distribution. |
Laconis Dax
Laurentson INC StructureDamage
0
|
Posted - 2013.03.12 01:34:00 -
[82] - Quote
Sounds like a good idea, CCP, as long as the launcher will by default stop seeding after the download is complete. But it would be an even BETTER idea if we could get some granular control over our seeding options: A "Stop seeding at ratio ___" option would be phenomenal, as would as a way to specify the upload speed cap. And if you really wanted to keep us techheads happy, give us "Seed for at most / at least ___ hours" options... |
Terrorfrodo
Renegade Hobbits for Mordor
420
|
Posted - 2013.03.12 01:52:00 -
[83] - Quote
Surprised how self-critical you are of the launcher, after the botched first release I really liked it, never had a failed patch since und patching runs much smoother. Guess I was lucky with my stable connection.
Torrent, well why not. Although I somehow suspect that saving bandwidth may be a factor for CCP here ^^ . |
Juniorama
State War Academy Caldari State
81
|
Posted - 2013.03.12 01:56:00 -
[84] - Quote
CCP Aporia wrote:This is also one of the reasons why we want to bring it to a test server near you soon, so that we can gain more experience with how the mechanism would perform for people behind restrictive firewalls / ISPs.
Can't wait to give this a go, as I spend a lot of time in China on business. The Great Firewall being great can make patch days a real chore. If my client corrupts I can just about forget it.
In other news, a gaming content provider that rhymes with s team is an excellent platform for downloading games behind said greatness. |
Tiflane
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2013.03.12 02:19:00 -
[85] - Quote
Sentient Blade wrote:Vera Algaert wrote:my router crashes if I have more than 10-12 active connections, so I hope we will be able to limit the connection count or force HTTP (as other games allow the user to do). You really need a new router. Only 12 connections is ridiculous.
Except that's not always a choice, as in my case where it's actually built into the LoS dish before going into the house and the main household router (which obviously does not have such issues.)
So yeah, lots of connections and lots of upstream crashes out my internet connection, so torrents are a no-go. So long as that part of it can be disabled, I'll be happy with the plain old style transfer.
|
Ryans Revenge
Last Huzzah
56
|
Posted - 2013.03.12 03:49:00 -
[86] - Quote
The problem with this is that a lot of UK isp's lower your internet speed if you download over a certain amount over torrents.
So my 120meg net will be dropped to 20meg if your patch is bigger than 1gig or something. Really ******* sucks that your going to ****** torrents that isp's don't like and flag as illegal downloads... Sigh |
Verite Rendition
Rionnag Alba Northern Coalition.
128
|
Posted - 2013.03.12 04:44:00 -
[87] - Quote
I apologize if this has already been posted, but I had a thought.
CCP will be in control of everything, including the tracker, right? So why don't you modify your tracker to scrub all the clients from the peer list, leaving only the CCP CDNs?
This means no two clients would be able to connect to each other, and consequently clients could only connect to the CCP BitTorrent seeds and the web seeds. The significance of this being that it does a complete runaround on any concerns about P2P transfers; no customer's upload bandwidth would be getting used to distribute the game, which is what makes people so antsy. This lets you use the BitTorrent protocol to distribute files, but still in a client-server topography rather than P2P.
On a side note, I can see why you want to do this. I've put together torrents in the past for the Mac users, using the CCP CDNs as webseeds, as for some reason Mac users are prone to having the DMG get corrupt in transport. It worked well for the few users that were having problems. Though that was using solely web seeds without any use of the BitTorrent protocol (and P2P transfers) itself. So I'm surprised to hear you guys are having problems with HTTP range download requests, as I've always found those to be very reliable. But I guess this game serves some pretty odd clients in some pretty far-off locations...
All of this will definitely require some testing. I'm sure the web seed component will work fine for anyone who can easily download the client today, but the BitTorrent protocol does raise the ire of some ISPs (particularly those that are heavily oversubscribed). I'd almost think you want to use it as a fallback protocol, for whenever HTTP range downloads aren't working. Otherwise HTTP is for lack of a better word "friendlier" and less likely to raise a flag with crotchety ISPs. It would also help in that case to greatly limit the number of connections; there shouldn't be any need to run more than a few connections at once if P2P transfers are disabled. This again makes ISPs happier, plus it's nicer on old routers that hurl if faced with too many connections. |
Alx Warlord
SUPERNOVA SOCIETY Fade 2 Black
379
|
Posted - 2013.03.12 05:07:00 -
[88] - Quote
Verry much apreciated!
After this UNIFY ACOUNTS and REVAMP POS!!!! Please read this! > New POS system (Block Built) Please read this! > Refining and Reprocess Revamp |
Mr Garo
Fistful of Finns Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
8
|
Posted - 2013.03.12 06:45:00 -
[89] - Quote
I'm all in for using bittorrent for getting patches.
We recently had a problem where Steam released a big amount of patches just as we started a lan party of 1000 people. The amount of Steam patches flooded our 1Gbps internet connection for an entire day! If Steam would have been using Bittorrent to distribute the patch files there wouldn't be any problems.
- Mr Garo |
Schmata Bastanold
Keep It Burning Stupid
671
|
Posted - 2013.03.12 08:23:00 -
[90] - Quote
I honestly have no idea what kind of problems that change will fix but I never had any problems with patches in the first place. I have good intertubez connection and never waited more than few minutes for download and installation of new patch/expansion. Perfect when you just got back from work and need to put your dinner to the oven and prepare some salad while Eve is updating itself.
But obviously metrics show something disturbing enough to be worth fixing because metrics are never wrong. Funny they don't show how much of needless hassle is switching between toons on same account, maybe then launcher would gain magic powers to handle that too. I am not my skills but... http://eveboard.com/pilot/Schmata_Bastanold |
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Claire Raynor
NovaGear Limitless Inc.
93
|
Posted - 2013.03.12 08:30:00 -
[91] - Quote
I for one will enjoy this protocol. If it means that the client's can update themselves off of one another more easily then that's good. Also if the launcher will let me get my multi-boxed up and running quicker then that too will be great!
ALSO. I will be setting my system to always be sharing the installers. And if my ISP goes all pissy about P2P then I will send them a pissy letter :)
Nice Work CCP |
The Groundskeeper
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
163
|
Posted - 2013.03.12 09:07:00 -
[92] - Quote
Oh that's just great. So for those of us whose ISPs (Virgin National in my case, but this is very common) do traffic shaping and deep packet inspection we can now look forward to a stellar 10-20kbps download speed on patches before 11 at night.
Why not delete the boot.ini while you're at it just for another twist of the knife? |
The Groundskeeper
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
163
|
Posted - 2013.03.12 09:09:00 -
[93] - Quote
Verite Rendition wrote:I apologize if this has already been posted, but I had a thought.
CCP will be in control of everything, including the tracker, right? So why don't you modify your tracker to scrub all the clients from the peer list, leaving only the CCP CDNs?
This means no two clients would be able to connect to each other, and consequently clients could only connect to the CCP BitTorrent seeds and the web seeds.
They want to use your bandwidth, saving them money, obviously. |
Inquisitor Tyr
Phantom Squad Insidious Empire
33
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Posted - 2013.03.12 09:10:00 -
[94] - Quote
I've never had any problems with the launcher. But while were on the subject, if you were to make it easier to launch multiple clients I'd be somewhat satisifed.
# of clients to Launch : ____ [ LAUNCH BUTTON ] |
Liafcipe9000
Smeghead Empire
760
|
Posted - 2013.03.12 09:20:00 -
[95] - Quote
From beginning to end, whatever I read I heard in my head in the voice of Shala'Raan from Mass Effect...
I still think the EVE Launcher is obsolete and we can do well enough without it. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
3945
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Posted - 2013.03.12 09:33:00 -
[96] - Quote
Two things that are related to the launcher even if they are not about the protocol.
1) CCP, please change that absolutely avoidable and annoying behavior that happens when one starts two launchers by mistake. Big annoying modal popup "Multiple instances blah blah". Just make the old window go to the foreground. Knowing that behind the scenes it checked for a window handle and found a duplicate does not mean the end user has to be notified, just pop the old launcher up and be done with it.
2) I have my default browser set to Firefox. I also have Chrome.
Guess what happens every time I press a link on the launcher?
A damn Internet Explorer is started.
Please either implement:
- a right click menu where I can choose which browser to use to look at the links
- a right click menu where I can at least copy the URL on the clipboard so I can start the browser myself.
- a mouseover event that shows the pointed to URL on some status bar or a tooltip.
- or maybe, just do it right and make so that the launcher uses the brower I have actually chosen as system default. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Eudora
Royal Productions
0
|
Posted - 2013.03.12 09:34:00 -
[97] - Quote
Inquisitor Tyr wrote:I've never had any problems with the launcher. But while were on the subject, if you were to make it easier to launch multiple clients I'd be somewhat satisifed.
# of clients to Launch : ____ [ LAUNCH BUTTON ]
Thumbs up.
Today running multi account's, One have to click the "Launch button" a few times depending on how many account's you got, then all start on the same screen, after this we have to enter ESC menu to pick what monitor we want the account on.
There should be some way for the client after logon to remember the monitor and setting it was last set to, so that we only need to click the ESC menu the first time we log on after instal/patch, or want to change monitor or setting. |
Xearal
Black Thorne Corporation Black Thorne Alliance
525
|
Posted - 2013.03.12 09:51:00 -
[98] - Quote
I totally approve of the use of BitTorrent as a means to spread the update data. It's reliable and fast. Also, using encryption on it tends to bypass those people who don't like P2P tranfers. And I'm sure you will have a regular download backup for the places where people can't use P2P.
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Mashie Saldana
BFG Tech
617
|
Posted - 2013.03.12 09:52:00 -
[99] - Quote
Whatever happened with the idea of having a tabbed client for multi client users? Dominique Vasilkovsky Mashie Saldana Monica Foulkes |
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CCP Atropos
C C P C C P Alliance
183
|
Posted - 2013.03.12 10:15:00 -
[100] - Quote
Terrorfrodo wrote:Surprised how self-critical you are of the launcher, after the botched first release I really liked it, never had a failed patch since und patching runs much smoother. Guess I was lucky with my stable connection.
Torrent, well why not. Although I somehow suspect that saving bandwidth may be a factor for CCP here ^^ It's a case of looking at the numbers of people who are unable to patch. The single point of failure when using only HTTP/1.1 has proven to be a weakness and we want to fix that for those users who are only able to patch by downloading the full installer. Product Owner, EVE Launcher | Team Special Circumstances |
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CCP Atropos
C C P C C P Alliance
183
|
Posted - 2013.03.12 10:17:00 -
[101] - Quote
Schmata Bastanold wrote:But obviously metrics show something disturbing enough to be worth fixing because metrics are never wrong. Funny they don't show how much of needless hassle is switching between toons on same account, maybe then launcher would gain magic powers to handle that too. I understand your point, but making changes of that magnitude to the EVE client isn't in the purview of my team Product Owner, EVE Launcher | Team Special Circumstances |
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CCP Atropos
C C P C C P Alliance
183
|
Posted - 2013.03.12 10:22:00 -
[102] - Quote
The Groundskeeper wrote:Verite Rendition wrote:I apologize if this has already been posted, but I had a thought.
CCP will be in control of everything, including the tracker, right? So why don't you modify your tracker to scrub all the clients from the peer list, leaving only the CCP CDNs?
This means no two clients would be able to connect to each other, and consequently clients could only connect to the CCP BitTorrent seeds and the web seeds. They want to use your bandwidth, saving them money, obviously. The goal of going with BitTorrent is two fold: firstly to use a reliable and proven network transfer protocol that has more than one method for downloading data, rather than our own, custom implementation with a single point of failure, and secondly to improve the overall patching experience; the torrents being used will be backed by our CDN (as is already the case) to ensure a given quality of service, and the BitTorrent swarm is then used as an additional method for downloading. Product Owner, EVE Launcher | Team Special Circumstances |
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Magic Crisp
Amarrian Micro Devices Yulai Federation
65
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Posted - 2013.03.12 10:33:00 -
[103] - Quote
Regarding the multiboxing stuff, what are those changes?
If you haven't thought of it already, please (under windows) open screen/display properties, and there notice the diagram which displays how your screens are arranged. Now, put multiple launch buttons on the launcher, corresponding to the above mentioned diagram, each launch button corresponds to a screen - when you press it that client will start on the selected screen. Currently it's not so comfortable when clients starts popping up on random screens every time, and the first thing we have to do is go to the settings and move them to the desired screen. thanks.
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CCP Atropos
C C P C C P Alliance
183
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Posted - 2013.03.12 10:34:00 -
[104] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:2) I have my default browser set to Firefox. I also have Chrome. Guess what happens every time I press a link on the launcher? A damn Internet Explorer is started. Please either implement: - a right click menu where I can choose which browser to use to look at the links - a right click menu where I can at least copy the URL on the clipboard so I can start the browser myself. - a mouseover event that shows the pointed to URL on some status bar or a tooltip. - or maybe, just do it right and make so that the launcher uses the brower I have actually chosen as system default. The EVE Launcher uses a module in the Python standard library called webbrowser, to find and open the relevant browser. It does this by examining your computers system path for known browsers, and failing that simply uses IE. I would imagine that it's unable to find your chosen browser.
The irony is that we used to simply delegate the call to the operating system, by using the OS to open the associated application for the URL (ie: equivalent to going Windows -> Run -> http://eveonline.com) but we removed it in favour of the webbrowser module, for precisely the reason you list; in some cases we were incorrectly loading using IE rather than the users installed (and preferred) browser. Product Owner, EVE Launcher | Team Special Circumstances |
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Magic Crisp
Amarrian Micro Devices Yulai Federation
65
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Posted - 2013.03.12 10:37:00 -
[105] - Quote
Regarding the multiboxing stuff, what are those changes?
If you haven't thought of it already, please (under windows) open screen/display properties, and there notice the diagram which displays how your screens are arranged. Now, put multiple launch buttons on the launcher, corresponding to the above mentioned diagram, each launch button corresponds to a screen - when you press it that client will start on the selected screen. Currently it's not so comfortable when clients starts popping up on random screens every time, and the first thing we have to do is go to the settings and move them to the desired screen. thanks.
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CCP Aporia
C C P C C P Alliance
53
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Posted - 2013.03.12 10:39:00 -
[106] - Quote
Vera Algaert wrote:my router crashes if I have more than 10-12 active connections, so I hope we will be able to limit the connection count or force HTTP (as other games allow the user to do).
There will be an option to limit the amount of total connections, as well as the number of upload slots you want to provide.
Cpt Underpants wrote:Phext wrote:Remiel Pollard wrote:As far as I'm aware, if P2P traffic is encrypted, ISP's can't read it as P2P traffic and cannot throttle it. If you use data encryption, it should work fine. ISPs may throttle well known BT port ranges (TCP 6881-6889 is used for transport). They don't necessarily need to look into the traffic. One may bypass this throttling by using different port ranges. Not easy to bypass, the way a lot of the filtering boxes work is they look at the SSL certificate used to encrypt the data. Certain data patterns are flagged as potentially P2P, it is analysed centrally and if found to be P2P the certificate itself is then used to confirm P2P and implement throttling. Next comes the issue of carrier-grade NAT which can further limit the ability to use P2P. Also in Australia most ISPs count both uploads and downloads against our data caps. We pay for Eve Online, why should we pay more by potentially doubling the amount of data used for each update? A lot of countries have data caps, a lot of internet providers have detection for P2P to throttle or block. Next we have the potential issues with the new USA "six-strikes" P2P policies and the equivilents in other countries. There is talk it detects all P2P traffic, not just illicit ones. Even with white-listing certain things, many people may receive warnings before the Eve launcher is exempted. Will P2P cost CCP less than a network of content nodes? I think it will. As long as the number of CDNs is adequate and I can turn off torrenting before anything starts, I'll be happy.
Again, to get experience with ISP throttling or even blocking then that is why we would like to see this out in the wild for testing. So we are not going to role this out for TQ without getting some experience and a chance to improve parts of it first. And also, again, HTTP is still being utilized, so in worst case you will still have that. Also, the port range to use can be changed in the options.
Another point worth mentioning probably is that here in Iceland people usually have data caps as well, however, they only count for oversea traffic: Everything that is hosted within Iceland has unlimited bandwidth, but everyone you download from abroad eats up your monthly allowance. The usage of bittorrent is supposed to help with this eventually, because you can setup your regional network that would avoid overseas traffic. That being said, we have no knowledge on how every single ISP around the world is going to handle it so any information is welcome.
With regards to six-strikes: We'll look into this and see if there is anything more we can do about it except for disabling non-HTTP transfers. Senior Programmer Team Special Circumstances |
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CCP Atropos
C C P C C P Alliance
183
|
Posted - 2013.03.12 10:39:00 -
[107] - Quote
Mashie Saldana wrote:Whatever happened with the idea of having a tabbed client for multi client users? No idea. It wouldn't be something my team would be looking at, since we're focused on the EVE Launcher and associated tech. Product Owner, EVE Launcher | Team Special Circumstances |
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CCP Aporia
C C P C C P Alliance
53
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Posted - 2013.03.12 10:56:00 -
[108] - Quote
Kiran wrote:Not had a lot to do with Bit Torrents, but if we are sharing information with other Eve users wont this open our PC's up to viruses that can be installed within the Eve file system ?
So you therefore share a virus over the net to all other Eve users through the patching ?
No, it won't. The EVE launcher retrieves the torrent meta information via secure mechanism, and the torrent protocol makes sure that all the data it receives has the expected checksums from said meta information. As long as you use the launcher and not any external torrent client to download the EVE client you should be all good. Senior Programmer Team Special Circumstances |
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Verite Rendition
Rionnag Alba Northern Coalition.
128
|
Posted - 2013.03.12 12:23:00 -
[109] - Quote
CCP Aporia wrote:With regards to six-strikes: We'll look into this and see if there is anything more we can do about it except for disabling non-HTTP transfers. Six strikes won't impact EVE players unless CCP starts filing copyright infringement notices with ISPs. It's a self-reporting system: the rights holder (or their approved agent) has to complain to the ISPs, which for obvious reasons wouldn't be happening here. |
Chrono Guardia
MuffinMen
0
|
Posted - 2013.03.12 13:29:00 -
[110] - Quote
I think the new download method sounds interesting, but I have a slightly off topic thought. I would like to suggest that you also might add a menu into the launcher that allows for the user to change the graphics options out of game, specifically whether or not the game runs in full screen, fixed window, or windowed mode. This would have helped me a lot in the past when the switchable graphics on my laptop caused eve to crash my computer every time I tried to start eve, because I could of just changed the graphics options instead of temporarily disabling one of my graphics cards.
Chrono |
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Scaugh
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
48
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Posted - 2013.03.12 13:47:00 -
[111] - Quote
CCP Aporia wrote:Vera Algaert wrote: OTHER stuff. Another point worth mentioning probably is that here in Iceland people usually have data caps as well, however, they only count for oversea traffic: Everything that is hosted within Iceland has unlimited bandwidth, but everyone you download from abroad eats up your monthly allowance. The usage of bittorrent is supposed to help with this eventually, because you can setup your regional network that would avoid overseas traffic. That being said, we have no knowledge on how every single ISP around the world is going to handle it so any information is welcome.
With regards to six-strikes: We'll look into this and see if there is anything more we can do about it except for disabling non-HTTP transfers.[/quote]
is there any information on what additional/extra bandwith useage we should be expecting with these changes. I'm on a fairly limited data package as it is, with large charges for execeeding it.
I know any answer would probably be dependant on hours played but surely with a change like this you have some sort of calcuations done (even if its on your ownserver side). |
Tom Bodett
Liberal Fortress Liberal Alliance
1
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Posted - 2013.03.12 13:49:00 -
[112] - Quote
Thank you for this change! Bittorrent is by far the best distribution method available.
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CCP Aporia
C C P C C P Alliance
53
|
Posted - 2013.03.12 14:01:00 -
[113] - Quote
Scaugh wrote:is there any information on what additional/extra bandwith useage we should be expecting with these changes. I'm on a fairly limited data package as it is, with large charges for execeeding it.
I know any answer would probably be dependant on hours played but surely with a change like this you have some sort of calcuations done (even if its on your ownserver side).
So, because of the way we are changing things the amount of data downloaded for a fresh client install is round about 11 GB. This is roughly double the amount of the current installer, but this should only be happening if you have absolutely no files installed, or everything in your installation is corrupted our outdated. Since you already have an installation then this case should be of no immediate concern to you.
From measuring the differences of 13 EVE client updates we ended up with the smallest patch size being about 9 MB and the largest 2.4 GB. The extra bandwidth on your end that might be opposed by seeding files depends upon the speed at which you seed. A simple calculation: If you upload at 1/10th of the speed you are downloading, and the client update is 2 GB, then the extra bandwidth is pretty much 200 MB.
Hope this helps. :-) Senior Programmer Team Special Circumstances |
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CCP Aporia
C C P C C P Alliance
53
|
Posted - 2013.03.12 14:02:00 -
[114] - Quote
Chrono Guardia wrote:I think the new download method sounds interesting, but I have a slightly off topic thought. I would like to suggest that you also might add a menu into the launcher that allows for the user to change the graphics options out of game, specifically whether or not the game runs in full screen, fixed window, or windowed mode. This would have helped me a lot in the past when the switchable graphics on my laptop caused eve to crash my computer every time I tried to start eve, because I could of just changed the graphics options instead of temporarily disabling one of my graphics cards.
Chrono
We are looking into this but there are some things to be considered to get this working properly on the Mac. Senior Programmer Team Special Circumstances |
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Salpad
Carebears with Attitude
321
|
Posted - 2013.03.12 14:05:00 -
[115] - Quote
Sentient Blade wrote:Another thing which would help for updating would be pre-release updates.
By that I mean if you're going to go sending out hundreds of MB to a hundred thousand people in the next days patch, then publish it a day or two before, let us be downloading it to a staging directory, and then apply it as necessary (plus any other changes) come patch day.
It would also give the torrent network time to spread itself out.
This is a good idea!
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Salpad
Carebears with Attitude
321
|
Posted - 2013.03.12 14:06:00 -
[116] - Quote
Sedilis wrote:With the support for the Test server I hope this includes a button people click to build a test server install. Would be great if you could get it to launch and start the log server as well if connected to sisi.
I'm sure giving that some love would help with numbers for your mass tests as well as helping us guys out who have to try and talk members though setting up a Sisi client for our own testing.
Indeed! I've never messed about with the test server, because it's my impression that it's fairly complex to set things up to be able to access it. If it could be done easily via a more powerful Launcher software, just 3-5 LMB clicks and a download into a separate hard drive folder, I'm sure lots of players would try out the test server; not just me.
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Salpad
Carebears with Attitude
321
|
Posted - 2013.03.12 14:16:00 -
[117] - Quote
Proddy Scun wrote:Also bittorrent is not particularly good at the initial mass release of large files. Until a critical mass of complete files are online as seeders -- bittorent tends to stall for lots of people as the network gets obsessed with giving everyone the first MOST available part of the file. Until a fair fraction of people have the parts you are missing you can end up just sitting in a bittorrent traffic jam. Your idea of having people with complete downloads signed off of bittorrent will make this much much worse. If mapping to nearest-least busy regional server cache of client, bittorrent may or not have good available.
That was certainly my experience, back when I was a World of Warcraft subscriber. Blizzard uses (or used) some kind of p2p system, and every patch day, it took many hours to download a few hundred MB of stuff, almost certainly for the reason that Proddy talks about.
I guess that's also one reason why I intuitively suggested that I should have an option to continue seeding/sharing files for a period of time after my Launcher has completed downloading, e.g. a window of 90 minutes. That's sharing some of my bandwidth for the benefit of other players, but not the ultra-altruism of seeding forever.
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Brad Zappigan
Liberavis Mining and Trade Corporation
6
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Posted - 2013.03.12 14:25:00 -
[118] - Quote
Game-launch-related question: The relog-function is very complicated atm. - you have to completely log off, the game restarts and then you can login again and select a different char. Would it be possible just to return to the char selection and select an other char without closing the client completely? Different approach: Maybe even choose the char to login with in the launcher and login to the server already in the launcher-window? |
Dersen Lowery
Laurentson INC StructureDamage
461
|
Posted - 2013.03.12 15:06:00 -
[119] - Quote
Proddy Scun wrote:Default to bittorrent. But maybe include alternates like HTTP 1.1 as fall back solutions. Even let user select which one to use. Maybe even have bittorrent status checks on seeder/leecher ratios and availability before selecting bittorrent as default.
The devs have clarified multiple times that HTTP 1.1 will be used as a fallback.
Your post piqued my interest, though. I've never really taken a close look at BitTorrent, but it sounds like an interesting protocol. Malcanis, Ripard Teg, and Trebor Daehdoow for CSM 8
(I have three accounts, so why not?) |
Luna Moonraker
LUNA-CORP
6
|
Posted - 2013.03.12 16:13:00 -
[120] - Quote
SamuraiJack wrote:Quote:However, there are ways to limit this, and by default the new EVE Launcher will only make you share the data required for installing the client while you are downloading; once your download is complete you will not be distributing it to others, unless you explicitly enable this in the options GÇô after all it might be useful for sharing the installation across your local network. We are also, by default, limiting the upload rate so that it should not affect your normal internet usage. That alone makes CCP's implementation of this much better than most Torrent installers. Flooding out your upstream just throttles your connection as you cannot send commands due to data floods. Shame Blizzard never took that onboard. In WoW certainly there was always an option to disable the P2P and download directly from the HTTP source which negated any issue of upload saturation effecting download speed.
In fact the proposal in this blog looks very similar to the WoW implementation for some years now. It uses the Bitorrent protocal built into the client so you do not have to use a separate P2P client such as BitTorrent (or any of the various alternatives).
It allows disabling of the P2P/ Bittorrent download and to download via HTTP 1.1 as it does now for those who have limited upload capacity/ behind firewalls or where ISPs' traffic shape or throttle P2P traffic.
They avoid the clusterfrake otherwise known as Pando Media Booster which by default continues to share your bandwidth even after competition and is surreptitious in the way it operates. This is especially so with the Mac version which relies on Java 6 which is not even part of the default OS X now for a number of years and with constant Java exploits and Apple even disabling it.
The ability to serve their client/ patch data via a multithreaded source which double checks the data as well is a good thing because, as they state, HTTP is not a reliable form of sharing the increasingly large file sizes that games now use. And a reliable method of resumable download which is useful for those with the average (at least in Europe) bandwidth around 2MB which means long download times and flexibility in computer use during that time.
There is some concern with the Mac EVE Online client which does seem to have an issue running with torrents running in the background and if this same traffic causes similar hanging issues then it means that specific issue needs addressing with even more urgency. I guess we will see from Sisi testing.
And any potential issues arising from the permissions/ user rights for additional file/ folder data checking that will be required. Not all users will have Admin privileges.
Overall though it looks like they have thought out the proposed changes and hopefully any issue are picked up and addressed during testing. |
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Charadrass
Angry Germans
50
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Posted - 2013.03.12 16:24:00 -
[121] - Quote
Quote:In short and among other things we are working on improving the self-update mechanism for the EVE Launcher, as well as its ability to download and update your EVE client, integration with digital distribution platforms like Steam and support for multi-box and test-client installations.
i'm asking what the Support for multi-box is. because i'm using isboxer and it would be awesome to get more Options. |
Barakach
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
153
|
Posted - 2013.03.12 16:32:00 -
[122] - Quote
For those of us who will have lots of upload bandwidth, can there be an option to keep sharing? |
Luna Moonraker
LUNA-CORP
6
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Posted - 2013.03.12 16:44:00 -
[123] - Quote
Barakach wrote:For those of us who will have lots of upload bandwidth, can there be an option to keep sharing? From the blog itself the full control of the sharing both during, and after downloading, is included;
Quote:once your download is complete you will not be distributing it to others, unless you explicitly enable this in the options GÇô after all it might be useful for sharing the installation across your local network. We are also, by default, limiting the upload rate so that it should not affect your normal internet usage. This can be adjusted within the settings, should you wish to do so. It is set by default to not continue after the download is complete which is the correct approach, but allows the end user to continue to do so if they wish and also have full control over the amount of allocated bandwidth. |
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CCP Aporia
C C P C C P Alliance
60
|
Posted - 2013.03.12 17:13:00 -
[124] - Quote
Luna Moonraker wrote: [...] There is some concern with the Mac EVE Online client which does seem to have an issue running with torrents running in the background and if this same traffic causes similar hanging issues then it means that specific issue needs addressing with even more urgency. I guess we will see from Sisi testing.
And any potential issues arising from the permissions/ user rights for additional file/ folder data checking that will be required. Not all users will have Admin privileges. [...]
The Mac issue reported in this thread cannot be caused by torrents because there is no launcher available that uses torrents at the moment. While there might be issues then they are unlikely to be the same problem as what was reported. Though we are of course aware that the Mac client does behave a bit special at times.
About the admin privileges: We actually are looking into ways of mitigating these by eventually moving the installation of the EVE client into a more appropriate place, fitting with the various operating system guidelines on where this data should live, mostly because that will also take away some pain on our end when it comes to maintaining the update mechanism. Requiring admin privileges is really a bad habit but was not really frowned upon in the Windows world until Microsoft introduced UAC; and as we all know it takes a while for some things to get adopted properly. Senior Programmer Team Special Circumstances |
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Barakach
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
153
|
Posted - 2013.03.12 17:25:00 -
[125] - Quote
Phext wrote:Remiel Pollard wrote:As far as I'm aware, if P2P traffic is encrypted, ISP's can't read it as P2P traffic and cannot throttle it. If you use data encryption, it should work fine. ISPs may throttle well known BT port ranges (TCP 6881-6889 is used for transport). They don't necessarily need to look into the traffic. One may bypass this throttling by using different port ranges.
Then the question is, can CCP implement BitTorrent such that it uses random ports instead of the well-known ones. I know several clients already do this. Probably want this to be toggleable in the case someone needs known ports. |
Barakach
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
153
|
Posted - 2013.03.12 17:32:00 -
[126] - Quote
Ryunosuke Kusanagi wrote:a serious concern here in the US.
With CAS/Six Strikes rolled out, and obviously already claiming false positives on LEGAL files, how can i possibly be affected with EVE Online files essentially "Copyrighted material". I don't really want to start a political debate here, but politics in the US are veering towards the technophobe stage, if it hasn't already, and it is affecting P2P network traffic among other things.
They're getting false positives against people who don't even have Internet connections. If they're going to falsely identify you, it'll happen no matter what.
Blizzard already uses Bit Torrent and so do many Opensource ISO distributions. All of those are fine. The biggest issue for false positives are people sharing files with similar names to movies/music. |
Barakach
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
153
|
Posted - 2013.03.12 17:54:00 -
[127] - Quote
Dav Varan wrote:We pay you to provide the eve service.
You should be sending out the eve data from servers you pay for not stealing bandwidth off customers. disgraceful.
Is ccp having funding issues ?
It's not an issue of cost, it's an issue of performance. The Internet backbone can't support those speeds, yet alone a single data-center.
Use Kansas City for example. You have 30k people with 1Gb connections to the Internet, there is no way a datacenter will have 30Tb of bandwidth. But guess what? The internal network in Kansas city may have an aggregate of more than 30Tb. If you use P2P, then you can have all of those users distribute to each other and increase the effective bandwidth by orders a magnitude while putting less load on the Internet and saving Google money by reducing ingress and egress bandwidth.
P2P is just a way to horizontally scale bandwidth since it is very hard to scale bandwidth vertically. |
BigDaddyMcFatSacks
Space Olympics LLC
27
|
Posted - 2013.03.12 18:32:00 -
[128] - Quote
want nothing to do with bit torrent or anything like that.
If I cant disable it completely and download from EVE servers, well this is where we are gonna part ways after all these years. |
Endeavour Starfleet
853
|
Posted - 2013.03.12 19:07:00 -
[129] - Quote
I can understand the benefit of using the bittorrent protocol and for those on sketchy connections that have been experiencing failed install after failed install. It should be a big benefit.
However there are some security concerns due to the very nature of how it works. And atleast personally I would like to remain with HTTP until the system is well vetted by time.
So please.
#1 Have a checkbox in the installer to enable HTTP only transfers (I don't want to even connect to it once before I disable it)
#2 have the option put into the current launcher BEFORE you put in bittorrent so that we can disable it before an update has it on by default. |
Vortos Yvormes
Hattori Shogunate Claimed.
4
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Posted - 2013.03.12 19:21:00 -
[130] - Quote
I've only had a few issues with the launcher, but still been able to run the Eve client manually for a time. Downloading the entire (gargantuan) client is a pain, and a poor solution to a simple problem. I don't see why a separate (smaller) launcher download isn't (or perhaps can't be?) available, especially for people who are savvy enough to unpack a zip file and over-write the requisite directory. |
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Wodensun
ZeroSec
63
|
Posted - 2013.03.12 19:44:00 -
[131] - Quote
The Groundskeeper wrote:Verite Rendition wrote:I apologize if this has already been posted, but I had a thought.
CCP will be in control of everything, including the tracker, right? So why don't you modify your tracker to scrub all the clients from the peer list, leaving only the CCP CDNs?
This means no two clients would be able to connect to each other, and consequently clients could only connect to the CCP BitTorrent seeds and the web seeds. They want to use your bandwidth, saving them money, obviously.
Dont be daft.. They want to use BT so they can keep file corruption during download at a minimum. |
Endeavour Starfleet
853
|
Posted - 2013.03.12 20:27:00 -
[132] - Quote
Indeed. Having the upload stop once the download finishes will mean they will reduce their bandwidth by what? Maybe 1 percent if bunches choose to keep upload on? (Not by default) |
Valeo Galaem
New Eden Advanced Reconnaissance Unit Sentient World Observation and Response Directive
75
|
Posted - 2013.03.12 20:44:00 -
[133] - Quote
Barakach wrote:Dav Varan wrote:We pay you to provide the eve service.
You should be sending out the eve data from servers you pay for not stealing bandwidth off customers. disgraceful.
Is ccp having funding issues ?
It's not an issue of cost, it's an issue of performance. The Internet backbone can't support those speeds, yet alone a single data-center. Use Kansas City for example. You have 30k people with 1Gb connections to the Internet, there is no way a datacenter will have 30Tb of bandwidth. But guess what? The internal network in Kansas city may have an aggregate of more than 30Tb. If you use P2P, then you can have all of those users distribute to each other and increase the effective bandwidth by orders a magnitude while putting less load on the Internet and saving Google money by reducing ingress and egress bandwidth. P2P is just a way to horizontally scale bandwidth since it is very hard to scale bandwidth vertically.
It is not coming down to an issue of bandwidth for CCP, either.
CCP uses the Limelight Content Delivery Network, a third party service that hosts your files on multiple servers across multiple regions across the globe, ensuring that any end-user can get a good connection and download speeds.
As stated in the blog, the reason for bit-torrent is because it offers better download control, error checking, and redundancy than the system currently used. |
Barakach
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
153
|
Posted - 2013.03.12 20:57:00 -
[134] - Quote
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:I can understand the benefit of using the bittorrent protocol and for those on sketchy connections that have been experiencing failed install after failed install. It should be a big benefit.
However there are some security concerns due to the very nature of how it works. And atleast personally I would like to remain with HTTP until the system is well vetted by time.
So please.
#1 Have a checkbox in the installer to enable HTTP only transfers (I don't want to even connect to it once before I disable it)
#2 have the option put into the current launcher BEFORE you put in bittorrent so that we can disable it before an update has it on by default.
I have no problems with your #1/#2, but saying bit torrent has security concerns and that it hasn't been "vetted" by time is not understanding how the protocol works. The protocol is 12 years old, that is as "vetted by time" as you will ever get for technology.
The protocol itself is safe, it's how loosely the developer implements the security that dedicates if there will be issues, but that can be said about anything, especially HTTP.
The only valid "security" argument against not using P2P, is that someone can get your IP address, but it still does not mean they know who you are or which characters you play. You're just another IP address in the list. That is border-lining tinfoil hattery, but it can be a valid argument if you have a special situation.
One specific example would be if your from Australia or another country will strong data caps, and someone sees your IP address in the P2P list, so they decide to send you unsolicited data. Even if it isn't enough to DOS your connection, they could easily consume your entire monthly data cap in short order.
In this case, knowing someones IP address, irreverent of who they are, can allow an attack against a random EvE player where there is a high chance of a datacap. |
Endeavour Starfleet
853
|
Posted - 2013.03.12 21:35:00 -
[135] - Quote
Is it a bit of Tin foil? Yes. However that is just the way I am and the requests reflect that. Anyone can be hacked. The other day the news reported that MSNBC's news site was hacked into installing pretty bad malware on computers that went to the site.
Thus IP being shown even in a bunch of lists is indeed a security risk. If a minor one.
HTTP works for me. It does not work for everyone so I am glad to see CCP implementing better options. And I am glad that if worse comes to worse I can use the bittorrent protocol to get the client downloaded. The only thing I do not like is it being on by default.
I know it has to be on by default or most users simply wont use it and there will continue to be problems. All I am asking for is the ability to preset the client to NOT use it before the patch goes live. Even if I must edit a config file or something. |
Barakach
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
153
|
Posted - 2013.03.12 21:40:00 -
[136] - Quote
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:Is it a bit of Tin foil? Yes. However that is just the way I am and the requests reflect that. Anyone can be hacked. The other day the news reported that MSNBC's news site was hacked into installing pretty bad malware on computers that went to the site.
Thus IP being shown even in a bunch of lists is indeed a security risk. If a minor one.
HTTP works for me. It does not work for everyone so I am glad to see CCP implementing better options. And I am glad that if worse comes to worse I can use the bittorrent protocol to get the client downloaded. The only thing I do not like is it being on by default.
I know it has to be on by default or most users simply wont use it and there will continue to be problems. All I am asking for is the ability to preset the client to NOT use it before the patch goes live. Even if I must edit a config file or something.
Most web sites get "hacked" because of horrible coding practices. I've done a lot with network/server security and secure application designs, and there is no security through obscurity.
That being said, the average person probably doesn't know how to remain safe and typically opens holes in their firewalls for convinces every time an app asks for permission.
Like I said before, it's a grey area. Knowing an IP address is the first step to attacking someone, but at the same time, IP addresses are easy to get just from IP scanning the Internet, which can be done in less than a day. Come on IPv6. |
Soldarius
Deadman W0nderland Tribal Band
306
|
Posted - 2013.03.12 22:58:00 -
[137] - Quote
Came expecting devblog about improving missile launchers. Left disappointed.
You know what would be cool? A unified launcher for TQ, SiSi, Duality, and Buckingham. Just select the server and go.
Have an option to check the validity of your current install for that server and, if necessary, fix/update it. Or even remove it. "How do you kill that which has no life?" |
Caesar Rae
Legio VIII Augusta The Ancients.
1
|
Posted - 2013.03.12 23:48:00 -
[138] - Quote
BitTorrent may be good for the rest of the planet , however , the copyright ****'s , aka Hollywood , have the ISP's in the USA monitoring the ports that application uses and some outright block them.
Also , as I am part of a College staff Desktop Support Department , BitTorrent ports are disabled and anything doing with that format is blocked. Most businesses do that as well.
Just an FYI as you think about moving forward with this.
http://torrentfreak.com/att-starts-six-strikes-anti-piracy-plan-next-month-will-block-websites-121012/ |
Caesar Rae
Legio VIII Augusta The Ancients.
1
|
Posted - 2013.03.12 23:52:00 -
[139] - Quote
Soldarius wrote:Came expecting devblog about improving missile launchers. Left disappointed.
You know what would be cool? A unified launcher for TQ, SiSi, Duality, and Buckingham. Just select the server and go.
Have an option to check the validity of your current install for that server and, if necessary, fix/update it. Or even remove it.
Balls on beautiful . . . . . and the client PC should be able to edit the location of the ".exe" for that server if it is installed. Or maybe the launcher could assist with that ( aka: Download Assistant ) |
Sodohm
Black Thorne Corporation Black Thorne Alliance
7
|
Posted - 2013.03.13 00:00:00 -
[140] - Quote
My only wish is that wont break playing on linux as much as when the launcher was created (which was a shitstorm for us)... |
|
Caesar Rae
Legio VIII Augusta The Ancients.
1
|
Posted - 2013.03.13 00:02:00 -
[141] - Quote
Oh and as mentioned by earlier posts , if this opens my PC via the downloader to other systems , no thank you.
I believe someone else mentioned how to set the torrent to draw from CCP locations only , as long as there isn't a way to spoof those , sure.
|
Accan
ExoGen Foundation The DEAD Alliance
0
|
Posted - 2013.03.13 00:33:00 -
[142] - Quote
I would like to say thx to CCP Aporia and his team for their hard work on the launcher update / reroll issue , you and the rest of CCP staff that provide a customer service no other game producer / deployer can deliver and thx to you dedicated eve pilots that contribute with the different angels / issues that might be overseen.
This community is vasly unseen but it makes me want to contribute in the best ways i can.
Over and Out Accan |
Accan
ExoGen Foundation The DEAD Alliance
0
|
Posted - 2013.03.13 00:42:00 -
[143] - Quote
BigDaddyMcFatSacks wrote:want nothing to do with bit torrent or anything like that.
If I cant disable it completely and download from EVE servers, well this is where we are gonna part ways after all these years.
From common experienes : There has almost everytime been an option in the download option section to turn off p2p sharing to get the orginal content from the distrubitors servers only, but as stated above p2p sharing is the future to optmize youre download speeds to quicker be able to take part of major (big) updates quicker than to download the patch from one single strained server (CCP) ( CCP might have more servers to distribute the patch but i hope you see my point) |
m0v3rs
Sneaky Bastards. Mildly Intoxicated
0
|
Posted - 2013.03.13 01:57:00 -
[144] - Quote
Please add the in-game time to the launcher. |
Endeavour Starfleet
853
|
Posted - 2013.03.13 02:00:00 -
[145] - Quote
P2P is not the future in the least. As stated before CCP already has distribution networks so that you can get the file from a location near you. The weakness is in the HTTP use for some users.
P2P is going to shave just a tiny tiny tiny amount of bandwidth cost off the total. The benefit from the bittorrent protocol is reliability of the data transferred to prevent corrupted installs.
Steam is the future far more than P2P ever will be. |
Rammix
FreeWorkers HeII Gate Alliance
45
|
Posted - 2013.03.13 03:33:00 -
[146] - Quote
CCP Guard wrote:CCP Aporia and friends are working on the launcher and how updates are delivered to your EVE client. Please check out their latest dev blog right here and don't hesitate to launch your comments and questions our way! Just don't break its usability with WINE (on linux). Please. Would be very awful if linux users had to reboot to windows just to update EVE. Please, keep this in mind, if possible. OpenSUSE 12.2, wine 1.5 |
mybeter
Inglourious Squirrels
5
|
Posted - 2013.03.13 08:25:00 -
[147] - Quote
@ CCP Aporia Are you thinking about an option to backup the Eve client? Things like the folders where the bookmarks are in, overview settings, graphic settings, window positions and such? That would be very nice! |
|
CCP Aporia
C C P C C P Alliance
66
|
Posted - 2013.03.13 10:54:00 -
[148] - Quote
Charadrass wrote:Quote:In short and among other things we are working on improving the self-update mechanism for the EVE Launcher, as well as its ability to download and update your EVE client, integration with digital distribution platforms like Steam and support for multi-box and test-client installations. i'm asking what the Support for multi-box is. because i'm using isboxer and it would be awesome to get more Options.
What we would like to offer is two fold, and could be along these lines: 1) You just have some UI in the launcher where you see the different servers with their versions available and you can get these versions installed parallel to each other. 2) Be able to run the multiple client instances from the same installation.
Vortos Yvormes wrote:I've only had a few issues with the launcher, but still been able to run the Eve client manually for a time. Downloading the entire (gargantuan) client is a pain, and a poor solution to a simple problem. I don't see why a separate (smaller) launcher download isn't (or perhaps can't be?) available, especially for people who are savvy enough to unpack a zip file and over-write the requisite directory.
This is actually something we plan have happening with this as well. You download a small launcher, which then goes and downloads the big client.
Sodohm wrote:My only wish is that wont break playing on linux as much as when the launcher was created (which was a shitstorm for us)...
Rammix wrote:CCP Guard wrote:CCP Aporia and friends are working on the launcher and how updates are delivered to your EVE client. Please check out their latest dev blog right here and don't hesitate to launch your comments and questions our way! Just don't break its usability with WINE (on linux). Please. Would be very awful if linux users had to reboot to windows just to update EVE. Please, keep this in mind, if possible.
No promises because Wine/Linux is not officially supported by us. However, nothing stops you from using the test version we are going to roll out soon and then providing feedback which we may or may not be able to react to. ;-)
m0v3rs wrote:Please add the in-game time to the launcher.
That should be easy, added to our backlog.
mybeter wrote:@ CCP Aporia Are you thinking about an option to backup the Eve client? Things like the folders where the bookmarks are in, overview settings, graphic settings, window positions and such? That would be very nice!
Not directly, no. We do however have ideas for improving the cache and settings storage used by the EVE client. More details will follow as they become available. Senior Programmer Team Special Circumstances |
|
|
CCP Atropos
C C P C C P Alliance
184
|
Posted - 2013.03.13 11:14:00 -
[149] - Quote
BigDaddyMcFatSacks wrote:want nothing to do with bit torrent or anything like that.
If I cant disable it completely and download from EVE servers, well this is where we are gonna part ways after all these years. Can you elaborate on why you don't want to be part of it. We can't account for this response if it's just "because". Product Owner, EVE Launcher | Team Special Circumstances |
|
Hannott Thanos
Notorious Legion
463
|
Posted - 2013.03.13 11:20:00 -
[150] - Quote
Quote:i'm asking what the Support for multi-box is. because i'm using isboxer and it would be awesome to get more Options. Quote: What we would like to offer is two fold, and could be along these lines: 2) Be able to run the multiple client instances from the same installation.
What do you mean by this? I only have one installation of Eve, and I run 3 clients at once from that install. 1: Run launcher. 2: Press Play. 3: Wait for Play button to become yellow again 4: Press Play to open another instance of Eve |
|
Phext
SIGBUS
1
|
Posted - 2013.03.13 11:56:00 -
[151] - Quote
CCP Aporia wrote:Sarmatiko wrote:And what about Launcher 1.4x with integrated login/advanced client settings? This has been used on Serenity for some time but there is no plans to use it on TQ anymore? This is currently on ice until we are done with more pressing aspects. Eventually we would like to see the launcher managing all your EVE installations and no longer have the "one launcher per installation" as it currently is the case.
Why force players to have more than one installation at all? Launcher should be able to manage profiles for different Accounts. |
Hannott Thanos
Notorious Legion
464
|
Posted - 2013.03.13 12:09:00 -
[152] - Quote
Am I the only one running several instances of eve from the same installation and launcher?? Or are we talking about running TQ and Sisi from the same launcher? I has confuse... |
Claire Raynor
NovaGear Limitless Inc.
93
|
Posted - 2013.03.13 12:56:00 -
[153] - Quote
I'm wondering about the above two posts - I use two machines using Synergi and run two instances on each machine. All I'd want was something that could maybe allow me to get a profile - as I always have to do graphics settings to aim one instance on each machine at the other monitor.
I assume the Dev is talking about different installations for maybe the Live and Test servers? |
Red Frog Rufen
Red Frog Freight Red-Frog
212
|
Posted - 2013.03.13 13:18:00 -
[154] - Quote
CCP Aporia wrote: 2) Be able to run the multiple client instances from the same installation.
are you talking about different server? (TQ + Sisi + Duality?)
Because I don't even use the launcher to play the game, and I pop up multiple instances of TQ with a single installation.
|
Scaugh
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
48
|
Posted - 2013.03.13 13:28:00 -
[155] - Quote
CCP Aporia wrote:Scaugh wrote:is there any information on what additional/extra bandwith useage we should be expecting with these changes. I'm on a fairly limited data package as it is, with large charges for execeeding it.
I know any answer would probably be dependant on hours played but surely with a change like this you have some sort of calcuations done (even if its on your ownserver side). So, because of the way we are changing things the amount of data downloaded for a fresh client install is round about 11 GB. This is roughly double the amount of the current installer, but this should only be happening if you have absolutely no files installed, or everything in your installation is corrupted our outdated. Since you already have an installation then this case should be of no immediate concern to you. From measuring the differences of 13 EVE client updates we ended up with the smallest patch size being about 9 MB and the largest 2.4 GB. The extra bandwidth on your end that might be opposed by seeding files depends upon the speed at which you seed. A simple calculation: If you upload at 1/10th of the speed you are downloading, and the client update is 2 GB, then the extra bandwidth is pretty much 200 MB. Hope this helps. :-)
200mb of a difference seems reasonable enough. Thank you for the reply. |
Phext
SIGBUS
1
|
Posted - 2013.03.13 13:38:00 -
[156] - Quote
Hannott Thanos wrote:Am I the only one running several instances of eve from the same installation and launcher?? Or are we talking about running TQ and Sisi from the same launcher? I has confuse...
Multiple instances running from a single installation are sharing Client Cache and Client Settings which is not always desired or may lead to confusing results.
Masterplan should be one launcher handling a installation for Tranquility with profiles for client startup with different settings. I would like to see the ability to create a new profile based on an existing one. Singularity and other Test-Environments should be handled by this single launcher also. Deltas should be placed in a subfolder of main installation.
One launcher to rule them all, so to speak. |
Phext
SIGBUS
1
|
Posted - 2013.03.13 14:11:00 -
[157] - Quote
CCP Atropos wrote:BigDaddyMcFatSacks wrote:want nothing to do with bit torrent or anything like that.
If I cant disable it completely and download from EVE servers, well this is where we are gonna part ways after all these years. Can you elaborate on why you don't want to be part of it. We can't account for this response if it's just "because".
Can't speak for BigDaddyMcFatSacks. I'm usually downloading huge things at night using wget or curl on a tiny gateway box for several reasons. One reason is that running the power hungry main client waiting forever to get several GB through a 2Mbit downstream is not very efficient. Nearly everyone has NAS Devices with download managers for tasks like that. Lightweight setup executables downloading everything after they have been doubleklicked or using there own PtP mechanism are not always the best choice (from users perspective)
That said, having a full client install available has advantages. i.e. If you want to install it on more than one physical machine or - for whatever reason - reinstall OS etc. very often and if copying a installation from one machine to another - or from a backup to your shiny new OS installation isn't possible due to technical limitations / copy protection and whatnot. Admitted that copy protection isn't an issue at EO. |
Caesar Rae
Legio VIII Augusta The Ancients.
1
|
Posted - 2013.03.13 14:14:00 -
[158] - Quote
CCP Atropos wrote:BigDaddyMcFatSacks wrote:want nothing to do with bit torrent or anything like that.
If I cant disable it completely and download from EVE servers, well this is where we are gonna part ways after all these years. Can you elaborate on why you don't want to be part of it. We can't account for this response if it's just "because".
My Posts earlier may be of help. . .
"Oh and as mentioned by earlier posts , if this opens my PC via the downloader to other systems , no thank you.
I believe someone else mentioned how to set the torrent to draw from CCP locations only , as long as there isn't a way to spoof those , sure. "
I also included another showing AT&T out there monitoring the Torrent ports as part of the idiotic plan by the "thought Police" to "prevent" piracy of copyrighted materials.
|
Red Frog Rufen
Red Frog Freight Red-Frog
212
|
Posted - 2013.03.13 14:28:00 -
[159] - Quote
Phext wrote:Hannott Thanos wrote:Am I the only one running several instances of eve from the same installation and launcher?? Or are we talking about running TQ and Sisi from the same launcher? I has confuse... Multiple instances running from a single installation are sharing Client Cache and Client Settings which is not always desired or may lead to confusing results.
I guess it depends on everyone, but I like my settings shared!
beside the settings and browser favorite, there isn't a lot of things shared tho. (and never had any problem with 7-8 clients running at the same time) |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
1207
|
Posted - 2013.03.13 15:30:00 -
[160] - Quote
Phext wrote:Hannott Thanos wrote:Am I the only one running several instances of eve from the same installation and launcher?? Or are we talking about running TQ and Sisi from the same launcher? I has confuse... Multiple instances running from a single installation are sharing Client Cache and Client Settings which is not always desired or may lead to confusing results. Masterplan should be one launcher handling a installation for Tranquility with profiles for client startup with different settings. I would like to see the ability to create a new profile based on an existing one. Singularity and other Test-Environments should be handled by this single launcher also. Deltas should be placed in a subfolder of main installation. One launcher to rule them all, so to speak.
While it's not perfect, if you junction your install, you can have multiple 'installs' taking up no additional space and requiring updated only once. And it maintains settings based on where you started it from, so each junction is a new install.
(look at the wiki page on multiple clients for instructions)
I use this to maintain 4 sets of settings. fixed windowed on each of the three screens, and one across all of them. FuzzWork Enterprises http://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/ Blueprint calculator, invention chance calculator, isk/m3 Ore chart-á and other 'useful' utilities.As well as mysql and CSV/XLS conversions of the Static Data Extract. |
|
Phext
SIGBUS
1
|
Posted - 2013.03.13 15:44:00 -
[161] - Quote
Of course. Sharing settings between instances is a matter of personal taste.
The ability to run any number of clients with varying screen resolutions and modes, sound and graphic settings from one binary installation would be my use case. I don't think that's possible with the current launcher. Being able to do it with 3rd party tools using junctions IMO is a workaround for the lack of function in the launcher / application. It shouldn't be too hard to implement basic profile handling and keep it simple for the uninitiated.
Sharing settings may be problem if concurrent access on the same resource isn't handled properly. i.e.: changing a keyboard shortcut in instance A and alt-tabbing to instance B afterwards. It all depends on when this kind of configuration is loaded and if it's getting monitored to be updated.
It's nice to see that the launcher is getting a bit more of attention. In it's current state the launcher is not as feature rich as it could be. |
The Groundskeeper
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
163
|
Posted - 2013.03.13 15:46:00 -
[162] - Quote
CCP Atropos wrote:BigDaddyMcFatSacks wrote:want nothing to do with bit torrent or anything like that.
If I cant disable it completely and download from EVE servers, well this is where we are gonna part ways after all these years. Can you elaborate on why you don't want to be part of it. We can't account for this response if it's just "because".
I can kinda back him up on this: post-patch, if I am looking at bittorrent being the only option I'm not going to wait there for two days for Virgin National's throttled traffic on all available P2P ports. I speak from experience as I already unsubbed from WoW because of the ultra-slow patching speeds: it was just too much hassle. Do a search for "WoW P2p Patch" for a blizzard (heh" of dissatisfied customers.
Before anyone suggests "get a new ISP" they're otherwise great (unlimited bandwidth, fast connection) but they traffic shape heavily on P2P ports, which is fine by me as I don't use bittorrent. I have to use the backup Eve port since the default one is a targeted port for shaping and deep packet sniffing and taking 30 seconds to load a system kinda sucks. |
BigDaddyMcFatSacks
Space Olympics LLC
27
|
Posted - 2013.03.13 16:22:00 -
[163] - Quote
Accan wrote:BigDaddyMcFatSacks wrote:want nothing to do with bit torrent or anything like that.
If I cant disable it completely and download from EVE servers, well this is where we are gonna part ways after all these years. From common experienes : There has almost everytime been an option in the download option section to turn off p2p sharing to get the orginal content from the distrubitors servers only, but as stated above p2p sharing is the future to optmize youre download speeds to quicker be able to take part of major (big) updates quicker than to download the patch from one single strained server (CCP) ( CCP might have more servers to distribute the patch but i hope you see my point)
Already have farely fast speeds. Can D/L eve in about 30 mins if necessary. I have yet to have a problem downloading eve that lasted more than a few hours, and that was when eve was down so i fail to see how p2p is gonna help.
I have no problems if its better for others or whatever. But I want no part of p2p. Reading thru some of the read, apparently you can snatch peoples ips via bittorent. So that should be reason enough to not do it. |
BigDaddyMcFatSacks
Space Olympics LLC
27
|
Posted - 2013.03.13 16:27:00 -
[164] - Quote
CCP Atropos wrote:BigDaddyMcFatSacks wrote:want nothing to do with bit torrent or anything like that.
If I cant disable it completely and download from EVE servers, well this is where we are gonna part ways after all these years. Can you elaborate on why you don't want to be part of it. We can't account for this response if it's just "because".
Sure
1) Security. IP being able to be known by others, fake files, viruses, etc. Sorry i know about cheksums and all that but Im just not convinced its safe if it comes off someone besides an official eve server.
2) False flagging of ISP for torrents
3) No problems the way it is currently.
4) Throttling of my connection when P2P is detected
5) Being somewhere with P2P is not available (port blocked, univeristies, etc) making it worthless. |
Phext
SIGBUS
1
|
Posted - 2013.03.13 16:37:00 -
[165] - Quote
BigDaddyMcFatSacks wrote: 1) Security. IP being able to be known by others
Not an issue at all. Generally speaking, without the other side knowing your IP, the Net would be a boring place... |
BigDaddyMcFatSacks
Space Olympics LLC
27
|
Posted - 2013.03.13 16:40:00 -
[166] - Quote
Phext wrote:BigDaddyMcFatSacks wrote: 1) Security. IP being able to be known by others
Not an issue at all. Generally speaking, without the other side knowing your IP, the Net would be a boring place...
I think you misunderstand. As stated a few posts above someone could find out your ip thru P2P and then flood you rendering your connection basically useless. Maybe that is extreme, but it is certainly an issue. |
Red Frog Rufen
Red Frog Freight Red-Frog
212
|
Posted - 2013.03.13 16:48:00 -
[167] - Quote
BigDaddyMcFatSacks wrote:Phext wrote:BigDaddyMcFatSacks wrote: 1) Security. IP being able to be known by others
Not an issue at all. Generally speaking, without the other side knowing your IP, the Net would be a boring place... I think you misunderstand. As stated a few posts above someone could find out your ip thru P2P and then flood you rendering your connection basically useless. Maybe that is extreme, but it is certainly an issue.
anyone can flood any IP at their wishes. Why would they target you when there are tens of thousand IP downloading at the same time? |
BigDaddyMcFatSacks
Space Olympics LLC
27
|
Posted - 2013.03.13 17:05:00 -
[168] - Quote
Red Frog Rufen wrote:BigDaddyMcFatSacks wrote:Phext wrote:BigDaddyMcFatSacks wrote: 1) Security. IP being able to be known by others
Not an issue at all. Generally speaking, without the other side knowing your IP, the Net would be a boring place... I think you misunderstand. As stated a few posts above someone could find out your ip thru P2P and then flood you rendering your connection basically useless. Maybe that is extreme, but it is certainly an issue. anyone can flood any IP at their wishes. Why would they target you when there are tens of thousand IP downloading at the same time?
To gain an advantage in eve? Still doesnt adress the other points. |
Phext
SIGBUS
1
|
Posted - 2013.03.13 17:27:00 -
[169] - Quote
It's impossible to make a relationship between IP and Account / Character if this is your concern.
Using the ingame browser visiting trusted websites is much more dangerous in this context. The website owner, or whoever is permitted to read access logs, is able to make a direct relationship of address and character name (besides tons of other data). All data one needs for a denial of service targeted at a specific player. |
BigDaddyMcFatSacks
Space Olympics LLC
27
|
Posted - 2013.03.13 17:30:00 -
[170] - Quote
Phext wrote:It's impossible to make a relationship between IP and Account / Character if this is your concern. Using the ingame browser visiting trusted websites is much more dangerous in this context. The website owner, or whoever is permitted to read access logs, is able to make a direct relationship of address and character name ( besides tons of other data). All data one needs for a denial of service targeted at a specific player.
That is my concern as far the ip thing goes. |
|
Barakach
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
153
|
Posted - 2013.03.13 17:53:00 -
[171] - Quote
BigDaddyMcFatSacks wrote:
1) Sorry i know about cheksums and all that but Im just not convinced its safe if it comes off someone besides an official eve server.
They only way to know if it's coming from the CCP is via checksums in the first place.
How do you think EvE knows the files have not be corrupted during the transfer? How do you think the encrypted connection to CCP works? Checksums. |
Phext
SIGBUS
1
|
Posted - 2013.03.13 18:25:00 -
[172] - Quote
BigDaddyMcFatSacks wrote: 1) ....fake files, viruses, etc. Sorry i know about cheksums and all that but Im just not convinced its safe if it comes off someone besides an official eve server.
"Official" servers: you simply can't be sure that your download location is under exclusive control of one specific entity (which doesn't make things more secure always anyway). Even if you download from content.eveonline.com you can't be sure that it's not just a node of Akamai's or Limelight Content Delivery Network. This is by design.
File fragments with evil payload on torrent peers? Technical possible for sure but unlikely because of the cost of collision attacks on SHA-1 which is used for torrents AFAIR. |
Kronanius
Thunder-Struck
0
|
Posted - 2013.03.13 18:26:00 -
[173] - Quote
So I'm gonna be "that linux guy". It's my duty to say the following: please don't screw it up for us!
I have no *inherent* issues with bittorrent. In fact, I think the protocol is great for this type of client distribution. My problem lies with something mentioned earlier called the "Pando Media Booster". Getting that product running under WINE is a gigantic nightmare. Since you are a team of 3 people, trying to do a big, probably thankless, and seemingly peripheral job, with an awful lot of potential technical issues to deal with, I can completely understand that the tiny minority of us who have to (read: MUST) emulate the windows API in order to play are [probably] at the bottom of the list.
But I would request, on behalf of the people in my particular situation, that you Devs keep in mind that an overly-complex launcher (something with a lot of proprietary or non-standard integration protocols) WILL break the entire EVE client for some of us. Worst-case scenario, a work-around (like a parallel, technically simple launcher that uses a standards-based bittorrent protocol) would be hugely appreciated. In fact, depending on how you do your workflow, you might get something like this running and then try adding features to it until it turns out how you want it. If that's the case, please just save the old, simple version for those of us who need it!
Thanks for your time! ~Kronanius |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
3949
|
Posted - 2013.03.13 18:56:00 -
[174] - Quote
CCP Atropos wrote:The EVE Launcher uses a module in the Python standard library called webbrowser, to find and open the relevant browser. It does this by examining your computers system path for known browsers, and failing that simply uses IE. I would imagine that it's unable to find your chosen browser. The irony is that we used to simply delegate the call to the operating system, by using the OS to open the associated application for the URL (ie: equivalent to going Windows -> Run -> http://eveonline.com) but we removed it in favour of the webbrowser module, for precisely the reason you list; in some cases we were incorrectly loading using IE rather than the users installed (and preferred) browser.
Apparently that Python module limits itself to searching for C:\.
Too bad everybody who tries to optimize performance or to make for easier backups or wants to use a combo of traditional + SDD hard disks will have their stuff on two different disks. It's my case, IE sits on C:\ because it's where Win7 sits, but the other browsers are in E:\ Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
3949
|
Posted - 2013.03.13 19:03:00 -
[175] - Quote
Caesar Rae wrote:BitTorrent may be good for the rest of the planet , however , the copyright ****'s , aka Hollywood , have the ISP's in the USA monitoring the ports that application uses and some outright block them.
Post after post it becomes clear that USA residents have a common issue: they keep voting the wrong people.
Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Anun Hen
Justified Chaos
7
|
Posted - 2013.03.13 21:43:00 -
[176] - Quote
Please provide an option to download directly through HTTP.
FYI, some ISPs filter/throttle completely any bittorrent traffic during certain periods of the day (BT in the UK for example).
If you make bittorrent compulsory for updating the client, it will make it impossible for me to do so during "normal" hours. Changing ISP is not an option right now. |
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University Ivy League
1232
|
Posted - 2013.03.13 22:50:00 -
[177] - Quote
Karl Mattar wrote:Is there any way you can set the launcher to launch multiple eve windows for those of us who run two (or more) accounts at the same time? Configurable with different settings for monitors?
I have two monitors. They are different sizes. It is quite the pain to start everything up because the settings don't hold over from session to session. Whichever session I closed last is how it all starts up again.
Otherwise, I have no issues with this proposal at all.
The solution there is to setup each client that you want at a different resolution / graphical settings with it's own hard-link path. That way EVE stores the settings in different locations for each client.
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Multiple_clients#Method_1_-_Junctions
Basically, one hard-link for the 1024x768 client window, another for the 1400x900 window and a third for that 1920x1080 window. |
Endeavour Starfleet
853
|
Posted - 2013.03.13 23:50:00 -
[178] - Quote
The launcher should do that for you in my opinion. |
The Groundskeeper
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
163
|
Posted - 2013.03.14 08:40:00 -
[179] - Quote
Kronanius wrote:My problem lies with something mentioned earlier called the "Pando Media Booster". Getting that product running under WINE is a gigantic nightmare. ~Kronanius
I didn't spot that Pando was being considered. If it's that dross then definitely count me out. |
Hosedna
FumbleFamily Corp
13
|
Posted - 2013.03.14 09:44:00 -
[180] - Quote
BigDaddyMcFatSacks wrote:Phext wrote:BigDaddyMcFatSacks wrote: 1) Security. IP being able to be known by others
Not an issue at all. Generally speaking, without the other side knowing your IP, the Net would be a boring place... I think you misunderstand. As stated a few posts above someone could find out your ip thru P2P and then flood you rendering your connection basically useless. Maybe that is extreme, but it is certainly an issue.
You know, if you have absolutely no knowledge of how a network works and network security, you just shouldn't speak of it. Otherwise you appear as a superstitious medieval peasant speaking of technology... |
|
Hannott Thanos
Notorious Legion
466
|
Posted - 2013.03.14 09:53:00 -
[181] - Quote
The Groundskeeper wrote:Kronanius wrote:My problem lies with something mentioned earlier called the "Pando Media Booster". Getting that product running under WINE is a gigantic nightmare. ~Kronanius I didn't spot that Pando was being considered. If it's that dross then definitely count me out. Except it wasn't considered |
|
CCP Atropos
C C P C C P Alliance
184
|
Posted - 2013.03.14 11:05:00 -
[182] - Quote
We're not using Pando Media Booster. I hope that clears things up Product Owner, EVE Launcher | Team Special Circumstances |
|
Vedrea
The Shahi Balti
17
|
Posted - 2013.03.14 11:08:00 -
[183] - Quote
Request:
Auto-Play tick box.
Thank you please. Come again.
Also, my ISP (British Telecom Infinity) do arbitrary traffic shaping with deep packet inspection for torrents until after midnight. I would seriously like the option to use HTTP over BitTorrent if possible.
Ta.
|
Valkyrs
Deep Vein Trading
56
|
Posted - 2013.03.14 11:51:00 -
[184] - Quote
I'm good with it, would you be encrypting the traffic to try to avoid the bittorrent traffic shaping?
Also it would be nice if you guys could provide an RSS feed for updates, so I can get the updates from my native BitTorrent client and the download started right away, before I log in to EVE and rather than having another daemon running for updates. |
|
CCP Aporia
C C P C C P Alliance
68
|
Posted - 2013.03.14 13:31:00 -
[185] - Quote
Valkyrs wrote:I'm good with it, would you be encrypting the traffic to try to avoid the bittorrent traffic shaping?
Also it would be nice if you guys could provide an RSS feed for updates, so I can get the updates from my native BitTorrent client and the download started right away, before I log in to EVE and rather than having another daemon running for updates.
You won't be able to use a native bittorrent client. While we do use the BitTorrent protocol then we do some post-processing of the files we receive in order to make them usable by the EVE client. Senior Programmer Team Special Circumstances |
|
loquacious7
Pawnstars INC The Fendahlian Collective
0
|
Posted - 2013.03.15 01:34:00 -
[186] - Quote
CCP Aporia wrote:Aethlyn wrote:Sounds interesting. I just hope you include your own torrent handling and don't use any abomination such as that dreaded Pando Media Booster. :)
Also, I'd suggest by default the launcher should ask on first start, whether it should use bittorrent connections or just classic HTTP, because at least in Germany, some ISPs (like universities or some mobile providers) don't like to see P2P traffic and will rightout block, slowdown or sanctionize it (e.g. by cutting your internet access if there're too high P2P Transfers). Always think of unaware/non-savy computer users/players. We are not using Pando Media Booster or anything like that. The launcher is using it's own mechanism, which is based on a publically available torrent client library. By default it will use HTTP as transport as well as BitTorrent, so you should be all good even when you cannot use any P2P traffic. This is also one of the reasons why we want to bring it to a test server near you soon, so that we can gain more experience with how the mechanism would perform for people behind restrictive firewalls / ISPs.
Speaking of Test Server, Why my Windows 7 hates my sisi launcher is beond me. I have followed every instruction several times but still can only manage to have two sisi launchers or two Retribution launchers. ie they can be named something else and be created rom seperate folders but will auto rename the destination of the other launcher when used. So I can clean up my files and reinstal all 5.3 GB of game and start over or I can just play on sisi :-) what a great trick if CCP could make a seperate launcher to sisi from the Retribution Launcher or a link. |
Axhind
Eternity INC. Goonswarm Federation
9
|
Posted - 2013.03.15 02:28:00 -
[187] - Quote
Karl Mattar wrote:Is there any way you can set the launcher to launch multiple eve windows for those of us who run two (or more) accounts at the same time? Configurable with different settings for monitors?
I have two monitors. They are different sizes. It is quite the pain to start everything up because the settings don't hold over from session to session. Whichever session I closed last is how it all starts up again.
Otherwise, I have no issues with this proposal at all.
Use junction (free download from MS). makes life a lot easier with several clients ;) |
LiKuei
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2013.03.15 05:44:00 -
[188] - Quote
If there is going top be a way to "Opt OUT" of using your proposed Torrent set-up, you will keep me as a customer.
I do not buy games that use internet sites to validate them (i.e Steam) nor do I use Torrent sites. A partial reason for this is that most of the ISPs I have at my disposal do not let you use these. A secondary reason is that I do not want my computer talking to the world 24/7. |
Malifae
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
45
|
Posted - 2013.03.15 06:28:00 -
[189] - Quote
By design, the Bit Torrent protocol exposes the IP address of every peer to which you send or receive data, regardless of any encryption. Sounds like a great mechanism for someone to compile a database of IP addresses of known EVE players. I can't imagine anyone would ever do something nefarious with that information.
Yeah. |
Primary This Rifter
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
1
|
Posted - 2013.03.15 07:52:00 -
[190] - Quote
Malifae wrote:By design, the Bit Torrent protocol exposes the IP address of every peer to which you send or receive data, regardless of any encryption. Sounds like a great mechanism for someone to compile a database of IP addresses of known EVE players. I can't imagine anyone would ever do something nefarious with that information.
Yeah. What exactly do you expect someone to do with your IP address? Yes, I'm an alt. Congratulations. |
|
MainDrain
7th Deepari Defence Armada
163
|
Posted - 2013.03.15 10:02:00 -
[191] - Quote
Primary This Rifter wrote:Malifae wrote:By design, the Bit Torrent protocol exposes the IP address of every peer to which you send or receive data, regardless of any encryption. Sounds like a great mechanism for someone to compile a database of IP addresses of known EVE players. I can't imagine anyone would ever do something nefarious with that information.
Yeah. What exactly do you expect someone to do with your IP address?
Eat his firstborn? its a worry I have anyway.
Serious note, like the idea of this. Mainly because my work wifi doesnt restrict torrent traffic (limits speed rather than wholesale blocking) so I should be able to patch at work |
Malifae
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
45
|
Posted - 2013.03.15 11:11:00 -
[192] - Quote
Primary This Rifter wrote:Malifae wrote:By design, the Bit Torrent protocol exposes the IP address of every peer to which you send or receive data, regardless of any encryption. Sounds like a great mechanism for someone to compile a database of IP addresses of known EVE players. I can't imagine anyone would ever do something nefarious with that information.
Yeah. What exactly do you expect someone to do with your IP address?
If you have to ask, there is no point trying to explain it to you. |
Whitehound
1210
|
Posted - 2013.03.15 11:42:00 -
[193] - Quote
A nice read. Sounds great all in all. I am looking forward to the new launcher. Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling. |
KIller Wabbit
The Scope Gallente Federation
329
|
Posted - 2013.03.15 16:13:00 -
[194] - Quote
CCP Aporia wrote:Scaugh wrote:is there any information on what additional/extra bandwith useage we should be expecting with these changes. I'm on a fairly limited data package as it is, with large charges for execeeding it.
I know any answer would probably be dependant on hours played but surely with a change like this you have some sort of calcuations done (even if its on your ownserver side). So, because of the way we are changing things the amount of data downloaded for a fresh client install is round about 11 GB. This is roughly double the amount of the current installer, but this should only be happening if you have absolutely no files installed, or everything in your installation is corrupted our outdated. Since you already have an installation then this case should be of no immediate concern to you. From measuring the differences of 13 EVE client updates we ended up with the smallest patch size being about 9 MB and the largest 2.4 GB. The extra bandwidth on your end that might be opposed by seeding files depends upon the speed at which you seed. A simple calculation: If you upload at 1/10th of the speed you are downloading, and the client update is 2 GB, then the extra bandwidth is pretty much 200 MB. Hope this helps. :-)
Here's a thought - stop making the client grow to unwieldy sizes! For example - adding code so that character make can be run while the rest of the download is in progress. Creating a character is such an incredibly small part of the EVE experience, in terms of time, that adding yet more bloated code to the package is ridiculous. We expect to have to wait for the download to complete before we start using it.
Drop code that isn't needed. CQ - serves no purpose. Drop it.
Implement better coding practices. Companies can do better at squeezing code. They just put the thought of code bloat aside until they hit the bandwidth/disk image wall. Then they are trapped by a mountain of bloated legacy code.
THE last thing I want on my PC is BitTorrent.
Do something we really want - toon switching without re-launch of client. THAT would be useful.
CCP Punkturis-á "I want to get in on the goodposter circle jerk!"
|
Wodensun
ZeroSec
65
|
Posted - 2013.03.15 16:35:00 -
[195] - Quote
Primary This Rifter wrote:Malifae wrote:By design, the Bit Torrent protocol exposes the IP address of every peer to which you send or receive data, regardless of any encryption. Sounds like a great mechanism for someone to compile a database of IP addresses of known EVE players. I can't imagine anyone would ever do something nefarious with that information.
Yeah. What exactly do you expect someone to do with your IP address?
DoS. DDoS. Exploiting your Router/Modem. Possibly Man in the Middle attacks. Messing with your EvE client since we know what ports it listens on.
I might be able to think of more but i'd need to run a nmap vs your IP first... Which incidentally was handed to me by CCP... |
Wanderer Unknown
Trust N1
0
|
Posted - 2013.03.15 16:55:00 -
[196] - Quote
// deleted |
Primary This Rifter
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
2
|
Posted - 2013.03.15 18:27:00 -
[197] - Quote
Wodensun wrote:Primary This Rifter wrote:Malifae wrote:By design, the Bit Torrent protocol exposes the IP address of every peer to which you send or receive data, regardless of any encryption. Sounds like a great mechanism for someone to compile a database of IP addresses of known EVE players. I can't imagine anyone would ever do something nefarious with that information.
Yeah. What exactly do you expect someone to do with your IP address? DoS. DDoS. Exploiting your Router/Modem. Possibly Man in the Middle attacks. Messing with your EvE client since we know what ports it listens on. I might be able to think of more but i'd need to run a nmap vs your IP first... Which incidentally was handed to me by CCP... None of which anyone on the internet who was determined to exploit couldn't exploit without using a bittorrent client.
My point is that the torrent doesn't provide any vulnerabilities that aren't already there. Yes, I'm an alt. Congratulations. |
AenS
Jadablade S E D I T I O N
1
|
Posted - 2013.03.15 18:30:00 -
[198] - Quote
BitTorrent: Ok why not. And Thanks for keeping the old way as well! Just one little thing, -its not mentioned anywhere in the devblog nor this topic-
Implement : Proxy settings !!!
I can't use the current launcher at work because of that...My only workaround is this:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2047931#post2047931
with this: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1689275#post1689275 (when the links in the thread are actually up to date)
SO please, make the life easy for everyone :)
Thank you for your attention! |
Korgan Nailo
5ER3NITY INC Apocalypse Now.
119
|
Posted - 2013.03.15 20:22:00 -
[199] - Quote
A great move in the right direction.
It does amuses me the amount of idiotic comments and "concerns" in this thread though.
Looking forward to the new launcher. --== EvE Online Quick Reference Sheet: E-Uni Forums Link / EvE Forums Link ==-- |
Sierra Mackenzie
Black Widow Logistics
0
|
Posted - 2013.03.15 22:55:00 -
[200] - Quote
So glad you're dedicating programming time to improving the launcher than improving the actual game. Instead of improving the experience for existing players, they're improving it to draw in new players. Why else would they need to improve Steam integration?
...
Edit: Also, all of the tinfoil hat wearers in this thread crack me up. Oh noes, BitTorrent is going to eat my computer and malicious users are going to have my IP! Whatever shall I do!? |
|
Luna Moonraker
LUNA-CORP
7
|
Posted - 2013.03.16 00:42:00 -
[201] - Quote
CCP Aporia wrote:Luna Moonraker wrote: [...] There is some concern with the Mac EVE Online client which does seem to have an issue running with torrents running in the background and if this same traffic causes similar hanging issues then it means that specific issue needs addressing with even more urgency. I guess we will see from Sisi testing.
And any potential issues arising from the permissions/ user rights for additional file/ folder data checking that will be required. Not all users will have Admin privileges. [...]
The Mac issue reported in this thread cannot be caused by torrents because there is no launcher available that uses torrents at the moment. While there might be issues then they are unlikely to be the same problem as what was reported. Though we are of course aware that the Mac client does behave a bit special at times. About the admin privileges: We actually are looking into ways of mitigating these by eventually moving the installation of the EVE client into a more appropriate place, fitting with the various operating system guidelines on where this data should live, mostly because that will also take away some pain on our end when it comes to maintaining the update mechanism. Requiring admin privileges is really a bad habit but was not really frowned upon in the Windows world until Microsoft introduced UAC; and as we all know it takes a while for some things to get adopted properly. Thanks for the detailed reply Aporia.
The issue with Torrents I was referring to is not related directly to the current download mechanic but to anecdotal accounts which appear to confirm that running torrents 'at the same time as' the Mac EVE Online client seems to cause an increase in the freeze/ hang without any error log generated issue that has been ongoing for a long time. An recent example post (of many) noting this link would be here and are generally found in the long running 'Constantly freezing up' Mac forum thread
So, although there is no current torrent element to the download, if patches and downloads moved to a torrent based method, perhaps this issue could be exacerbated because it is an option for users to simply not run torrents when playing EVE on the Mac but unavoidable if it is an integral part of the Launcher.
Being that the Launcher would generally be run prior to play (i.e. to patch or update the game) then it is perhaps a non-issue. But if a torrent share was continued after the download is completed, then this may be an issue.
I am glad you are already considering the permissions issue at this stage. You hands are tied to a degree with the Mac EVE client utilising a Transgaming port and subsequent file hierarchy. But, given the current security systems in place now in OS X, traversing the array of such features, including permissions is more important than ever to avoid end user issues. |
Cpt Bogus
Whimsical Mining Refining and Exploration
8
|
Posted - 2013.03.16 02:45:00 -
[202] - Quote
Personally, I like it when companies aren't afraid to use BT distribution. The IP address thing is a valid concern but as others have said anyone determined to get players' IPs already has ways of doing this so it's kind of irrelevant. |
Wanderer Unknown
Trust N1
0
|
Posted - 2013.03.16 07:44:00 -
[203] - Quote
@ CCP/Team Special Circumstances
I'm a little bit curious what exactly in your existing implementation was so hard to fix that you considered to do a full re-write using a different, 3rd party library. You already have a resource server mapped to CDN. Now you need like two APIs - get metadata and get the resource.
Get metadata takes things like market, reseller id, etc plus a rounded down timestamp like ts=20130316 to break the CDN cache. It then returns the most recent list of downloadable resources or resource chunks with CRCs as published under some versioned folder on your resource server.
Then the second API is called by the clients to download the parts they are missing. If the resource is too big - OK it could be concatenated and served in chunks spanning across multiple files.
Then the client side is relatively easy - just make the calls, download stuff, CRC, apply.
I would think it's rather risky to switch to a different implementation with no huge benefits (other than being able to prioritize character data loading over world data).
Possibly I'm missing something like a need to support lots of client platforms... (PC, Mac OS, now PS3).
|
Primary This Rifter
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
2
|
Posted - 2013.03.16 08:36:00 -
[204] - Quote
Sierra Mackenzie wrote:So glad you're dedicating programming time to improving the launcher than improving the actual game. Instead of improving the experience for existing players, they're improving it to draw in new players. Why else would they need to improve Steam integration?
...
Edit: Also, all of the tinfoil hat wearers in this thread crack me up. Oh noes, BitTorrent is going to eat my computer and malicious users are going to have my IP! Whatever shall I do!? Tinfoil accuser should look in the mirror. CCP is perfectly capable of devoting developer resources to several areas of the game at once, including things like the launcher. And as for improving the experience for existing players, the devblog and subsequent posts indicated an issue with the current downloader implementation where if a download was interrupted, sometimes the entire installation would be corrupted. Many EVE players have had this problem before and while I personally haven't I can imagine it's extremely frustrating. Adding a bittorrent protocol would prevent this from happening for the majority of players. Yes, I'm an alt. Congratulations. |
Jane Travelstar
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
25
|
Posted - 2013.03.16 11:24:00 -
[205] - Quote
Hey there CCP.
1. Please don't make it like Blizzard's awful BitTorrent-based launcher. They don't let people change the speed at which they upload to the swarm.
2. There are so many ISPs out there who still throttle BitTorrent bandwidth, making those things crawl down to a halt.
|
Othran
Route One
457
|
Posted - 2013.03.16 11:55:00 -
[206] - Quote
As long as its only running while the launcher is open/downloading that's cool.
Anything else isn't acceptable to me I'm afraid.
I've heard all the "it won't affect your internet use" bollox before. On multiple games and from multiple companies.
It most certainly will as unless you've hand-tweaked your router (exceptionally unlikely for most of you), once the upload nears saturation then you aren't going to be able to push enough ACKs back to maintain the d/l speed of other users on your LAN.
Also of course you'll end up with lost UDP packets which is just lovely for other people gaming on your connection
I note that upload will be "limited". Heard all that before too, sooner or later you end up with a patch that maxes out upload and fucks up everyone else using the connection. Again multiple games and multiple companies have all done this.
I've also heard all the arguments about how this will make things "better" for users. It's only ever better for the company concerned who can reduce their CDN fees and hence increase their profits.
tl;dr fine as long as the P2P process terminates when the launcher closes/isn't downloading. Not fine otherwise. |
I Love Boobies
All Hail Boobies
388
|
Posted - 2013.03.16 11:58:00 -
[207] - Quote
Will be looking for the number of share upload connections when this comes out and setting it to zero. Or if that doesn't work, will just block it via my security software so it cannot be shared from my computer. ( o Y o ) ( o Y o ) ( o Y o ) ( o Y o ) ( o Y o ) ( o Y o ) ( o Y o ) ( o Y o ) ( o Y o ) ( o Y o ) ( o Y o ) ( o Y o )
The world would be a better place if boobies ran the world instead of boobs. |
xxxTRUSTxxx
Galactic Rangers R O G U E
129
|
Posted - 2013.03.16 12:32:00 -
[208] - Quote
I don't wish to share my details nor my network.
give us an off button in the options of the launcher for torrents i will not be allowing uploads from my network.
I'll stick with the HTML download I've always used thanks.
|
Dyvim Slorm
Spaceriders Inc.
114
|
Posted - 2013.03.16 12:43:00 -
[209] - Quote
xxxTRUSTxxx wrote:I don't wish to share my details nor my network.
give us an off button in the options of the launcher for torrents i will not be allowing uploads from my network.
I'll stick with the HTML download I've always used thanks.
Pretty much my view as well |
Stray Bullets
Perkone Caldari State
15
|
Posted - 2013.03.16 12:50:00 -
[210] - Quote
Primary This Rifter wrote:Wodensun wrote:Primary This Rifter wrote:Malifae wrote:By design, the Bit Torrent protocol exposes the IP address of every peer to which you send or receive data, regardless of any encryption. Sounds like a great mechanism for someone to compile a database of IP addresses of known EVE players. I can't imagine anyone would ever do something nefarious with that information.
Yeah. What exactly do you expect someone to do with your IP address? DoS. DDoS. Exploiting your Router/Modem. Possibly Man in the Middle attacks. Messing with your EvE client since we know what ports it listens on. I might be able to think of more but i'd need to run a nmap vs your IP first... Which incidentally was handed to me by CCP... None of which anyone on the internet who was determined to exploit couldn't exploit without using a bittorrent client. My point is that the torrent doesn't provide any vulnerabilities that aren't already there.
It does provide any ill intention'd subject with a list of IP addresses that are known to run the EVE client. Basically, you're getting a very narrow list of people to scan down for vulnerabilities. These vulnerabilities are, at the moment, secure by obscurity. |
|
Stray Bullets
Perkone Caldari State
15
|
Posted - 2013.03.16 12:52:00 -
[211] - Quote
Cpt Bogus wrote:Personally, I like it when companies aren't afraid to use BT distribution. The IP address thing is a valid concern but as others have said anyone determined to get players' IPs already has ways of doing this so it's kind of irrelevant.
What ways are that? I can see no way to get a list of IP addresses from people that are sure to be playing EVE without those people using either a third party forum of some sort or third party software. If you merely downloaded EVE and never posted in any related site or used any third party application, your IP address is never shown to the public in a context that relates you to EVE, thus being just another IP address and making it unlikely for targeted attacks. |
Stray Bullets
Perkone Caldari State
15
|
Posted - 2013.03.16 13:00:00 -
[212] - Quote
This feature needs to be off by default.
Posted this on another thread in GD, where the OP was basically saying that he wanted to control what used his bandwidth, as in, he could turn it off if he choose so.
Stray Bullets wrote:Even though it makes no difference to me personally, I do believe this needs to be set as OPT IN, as in, it's off by default. Why?
Because the OP does have a point where he does not have to share his own connection, regardless of protocol used or if everyone else in the industry is doing it or not. The why he doesn't want to share his bandwidth is irrelevant as he's paying for it, he decides where it's used and how.
If you do decide to opt in on the BT download, getting faster downloads, you also upload while doing so, which seems logic.
If CCP does go with BT and it actually eats up my upload in any way noticeable, I'll simply limit it's port to 0kb/s on the upload on my router.
TL;DR This needs to be OPTIONAL, with default being OFF! :)
Like I said, this should be OFF by default, with the option of turning it on for a better download performance along with the option to keep seeding.
After reading some of the other posts regarding security, and having the launcher basically connect to other piers, making my IP "public", the OFF by default makes ever more sense.
Regarding CCP having another medium on which to distribute the client, it's irrelevant to this discussion in my opinion, as it's not my responsibility to distribute their product. My bandwidth should be used only when I allowed it to be used and never used in a "by default" way. |
Dizirgee
UnaLaLuna Inc.
1
|
Posted - 2013.03.16 13:58:00 -
[213] - Quote
I'm for torrent launcher. As for people that have ISP that shape/block torrent trafic well try to change your provider. I mean by giving them your money you support they policy and thus make them think that thats what people want, no torrent trafic...
I also like that you put there option to keep seeding after download cause as I'm not greedy leecher I may want to go for at least 1:1 ratio. And what about full eve client installation ? If client launcher will be uploading only patch data how someone can download/install whole client? Will there be option like if I want to seed patch data only or whole client data?
edit: and yes torrent download should be ON by default (at least for patch data). |
Djana Libra
The Black Ops Black Core Alliance
80
|
Posted - 2013.03.16 15:00:00 -
[214] - Quote
Ryunosuke Kusanagi wrote:a serious concern here in the US.
With CAS/Six Strikes rolled out, and obviously already claiming false positives on LEGAL files, how can i possibly be affected with EVE Online files essentially "Copyrighted material". I don't really want to start a political debate here, but politics in the US are veering towards the technophobe stage, if it hasn't already, and it is affecting P2P network traffic among other things.
Move to a civilized country?
Nah but really it should be no problem at all if the files aren't marked as copyright protected with a specific origin allowance |
Red Frog Rufen
Red Frog Freight Red-Frog
213
|
Posted - 2013.03.16 15:54:00 -
[215] - Quote
If you are still worried, in 2013, by DDoS Attack and other kind of IP troublemaking, you should not be playing online games.
There are numerous easy way to protect yourself against those attack, the easiest one is : Reset you IP.
and as mentionned, you can set the upload speed yourself, so just set it to 0, and you wont share anything.
|
Acac Sunflyier
Burning Star L.L.C.
547
|
Posted - 2013.03.16 20:40:00 -
[216] - Quote
Origin has a very small line written into its EULA that says origin to allow them to view any information on or bout your machine that they deem relevant and necessary. I feel as if the dev blog that C.C.P. released about the change to torrents.
Quote:by default the new EVE Launcher will only make you share the data required for installing the client
I am wondering what kind of oversight is happening to guarantee this? Many of C.C.P.'s customers are out of country. Except for England and the United States (where the company has a physical presence and maintains servers) it would be very difficult for other countries to prosecute C.C.P. as a company. It'd be even more difficult if it were a rouge Icelander. In some sense we're having to take C.C.P.'s "word for it." and it'd be comforting to make sure nothing bad happens.
Maybe i'm just a privacy freak and won't install software that takes information without my knowledge. Maybe if there was a way for us to track what's being taken.
Oh and about the EULA bit; by downloading and clicking play we "accept all terms of the EULA" and that we're informed and consented. I find it hard to express that i give my informed consent when i don't even know what's being taken. I feel as if C.C.P. should be very explicit what's being done.
Also a link to the dev blog CCP don't make us wait another decade for a drone overhaul; DRONE OVERHAUL NOW! |
Acac Sunflyier
Burning Star L.L.C.
547
|
Posted - 2013.03.16 20:44:00 -
[217] - Quote
Beekeeper Bob wrote:Oversight? Are you kidding.....
Some of us want to be very very careful of what can be data mined from the internet.
Also you'd just make something that can "look" at your customer's computers (random people across the internet) and then not look in to see that the guys running it aren't being shady? kinda ignorant CCP don't make us wait another decade for a drone overhaul; DRONE OVERHAUL NOW! |
Beekeeper Bob
Beekeepers Anonymous
491
|
Posted - 2013.03.16 20:47:00 -
[218] - Quote
Acac Sunflyier wrote:Beekeeper Bob wrote:Oversight? Are you kidding..... Some of us want to be very very careful of what can be data mined from the internet.
I'm not arguing the point, I'm simply saying CCP isn't capable of fixing things that have been broken for years, expecting them to actually provide oversight, and security may be asking too much....
Remember BOOT.INI!
The single biggest danger to EVE is the proliferation of ALTS! Kill an alt today!
Petition for a Minimum bounty of 10 mil. Prevent useless bounties!
|
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
13262
|
Posted - 2013.03.16 20:59:00 -
[219] - Quote
Acac Sunflyier wrote:Quote:by default the new EVE Launcher will only make you share the data required for installing the client I am wondering what kind of oversight is happening to guarantee this? Just install a detailed bandwidth monitor and check if it's sharing tons of data after the download is complete.
Quote:Maybe i'm just a privacy freak and won't install software that takes information without my knowledge. It's not taking any information at all. It's making sure you're sharing the data you've already downloaded, because that's how the protocol works.
Vote Malcanis for CSM8. |
Solstice Project
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
2931
|
Posted - 2013.03.16 21:01:00 -
[220] - Quote
If you try to avoid giving any data about you, you'll just make yourself look even more suspicious, because you obviously have to hide something.
Paranoia is bad, okay ? |
|
Ai Shun
911
|
Posted - 2013.03.16 21:06:00 -
[221] - Quote
Acac Sunflyier wrote:Some of us want to be very very careful of what can be data mined from the internet.
How do you avoid using search engines?
Malcanis for CSM7 - here Malcanis on High-sec - here |
iskflakes
355
|
Posted - 2013.03.16 21:08:00 -
[222] - Quote
Acac Sunflyier wrote:Maybe i'm just a privacy freak and won't install software that takes information without my knowledge. Maybe if there was a way for us to track what's being taken.
CCP has said in the past they only take non-personally identifying information from your computer, e.g. computer specifications (graphics card, memory, processor, etc), computer name, operating system version, etc. This is probably done to let them work out what kind of hardware their customers have (no point in writing new graphics code that requires a graphics card 90% of users don't have), the data is probably also used to identify botters, though team security doesn't say anything obviously.
There is no way to monitor what is being sent so you'll have to take their word for it. If you don't like the idea that this information is being sent to CCP then don't play EVE :) - |
Wodensun
ZeroSec
66
|
Posted - 2013.03.16 21:27:00 -
[223] - Quote
just make a bloody capture of the network trafic with wireshark |
iskflakes
355
|
Posted - 2013.03.16 21:36:00 -
[224] - Quote
Wodensun wrote:just make a bloody capture of the network trafic with wireshark
It's against the EULA to decode the network traffic.. CCP already thought of that one :P - |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
13262
|
Posted - 2013.03.16 22:27:00 -
[225] - Quote
Wodensun wrote:just make a bloody capture of the network trafic with wireshark GǪor just read the line in full and understand that no information is being shared anyway. Either way works. Vote Malcanis for CSM8. |
Stray Bullets
Perkone Caldari State
17
|
Posted - 2013.03.16 22:37:00 -
[226] - Quote
Haven't seen a single point as to why this should be enabled by default.
Either CCP presents a valid point on why I have to share my bandwidth or I'm just blocking it's peer to peer outgoing traffic. I really don't care about faster download ... it's fast enough as it is. If it's for cutting costs on the expense of bandwidth I paid for personal use, then it's a simple no.
The issues this "feature" raises versus the advantages this presents to the user are completely crap. All the technical aspect of the new launcher can be achieved without using P2P. P2P is just convenient as it allows to shave some costs of publishing the end product. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
13262
|
Posted - 2013.03.16 23:29:00 -
[227] - Quote
Stray Bullets wrote:Either CCP presents a valid point on why I have to share my bandwidth or I'm just blocking it's peer to peer outgoing traffic. I really don't care about faster download ... it's fast enough as it is. You don't have to. That said, are you paying by the byte? How much of your upstream are you using? Why don't you want people to get their patches quicker?
Quote:The issues this "feature" raises versus the advantages this presents to the user are completely crap. What issues are that? People getting your IP? Big whoop GÇö that's not an issue; it's just the internet.
Vote Malcanis for CSM8. |
xxxTRUSTxxx
Galactic Rangers R O G U E
131
|
Posted - 2013.03.17 00:05:00 -
[228] - Quote
Dizirgee wrote:I'm for torrent launcher. As for people that have ISP that shape/block torrent trafic well try to change your provider. I mean by giving them your money you support they policy and thus make them think that thats what people want, no torrent trafic...
I also like that you put there option to keep seeding after download cause as I'm not greedy leecher I may want to go for at least 1:1 ratio. And what about full eve client installation ? If client launcher will be uploading only patch data how someone can download/install whole client? Will there be option like if I want to seed patch data only or whole client data?
edit: and yes torrent download should be ON by default (at least for patch data).
man you can't tell people to just change ISP's some people live in areas where there is only one available to them, not only that, what if the one they are with is very stable but does not allow torrent traffic and they are happy to keep them so they have a stable game playing enviroment. i feel safe knowing the software i download from CCP's servers is secure and can be in no way changed before i allow it onto my machine.
CCP need to give people a choice on this one, mine is still with off on torrents and sticking with the way i like and trust. |
Rammix
FreeWorkers HeII Gate Alliance
45
|
Posted - 2013.03.17 01:40:00 -
[229] - Quote
Hannott Thanos wrote:Am I the only one running several instances of eve from the same installation and launcher?? Or are we talking about running TQ and Sisi from the same launcher? I has confuse... For example, I run 3 clients and for 2 of them I use my second monitor with different screen size/resolution, and lowered graphics. So, sometimes you just have to copy eve client to use different settings. Btw, in my case (on linux), I don't copy the client and don't update them separately. Instead, I linked 2nd folder to the first and thus updating 'main' client also updates the 2nd. For windows there also must be some way to link folders. I just don't remember. OpenSUSE 12.2, wine 1.5 |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
1219
|
Posted - 2013.03.17 02:37:00 -
[230] - Quote
Rammix wrote:Hannott Thanos wrote:Am I the only one running several instances of eve from the same installation and launcher?? Or are we talking about running TQ and Sisi from the same launcher? I has confuse... For example, I run 3 clients and for 2 of them I use my second monitor with different screen size/resolution, and lowered graphics. So, sometimes you just have to copy eve client to use different settings. Btw, in my case (on linux), I don't copy the client and don't update them separately. Instead, I linked 2nd folder to the first and thus updating 'main' client also updates the 2nd. For windows there also must be some way to link folders. I just don't remember.
Pretty much the same way. It's called Junctioning, with windows. uses mklink
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Multiple_clients#Method_1_-_Junctions
Works well. Steve Ronuken for CSM 8 Handy tools and SDE conversions Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter |
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The Baby-sitter
Vitriol Ventures Tribal Band
0
|
Posted - 2013.03.17 06:41:00 -
[231] - Quote
I am glad that you guys take interest in improvements at CCP. It kinda also hacked me off when actual features that aims to improved are simply ignored. CCP can give us Go/No-Go on suggestions.
Several threads over time have been lodged for:
Re-logging instead of Log-off and On. Such as this Monitor selection to avoid the settings menu click-fest, like this
|
Stray Bullets
Perkone Caldari State
17
|
Posted - 2013.03.17 09:29:00 -
[232] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Stray Bullets wrote:Either CCP presents a valid point on why I have to share my bandwidth or I'm just blocking it's peer to peer outgoing traffic. I really don't care about faster download ... it's fast enough as it is. You don't have to. That said, are you paying by the byte? How much of your upstream are you using? Why don't you want people to get their patches quicker? Quote:The issues this "feature" raises versus the advantages this presents to the user are completely crap. What issues are that? People getting your IP? Big whoop GÇö that's not an issue; it's just the internet.
It's irrelevant if I'm paying by the bit, byte, megabyte, gigabyte. The point is, I'm paying for it. Is there any upside to this besides CCP getting it's distribution costs shaved off a bit?
I see no upside for me, the customer. They say better speed. I've never complained about the speed. It was never awesome, but it was never terrible.
So if their bandwidth is actually enough, why add the BT? It's not the technical part. You can have a distribution like the one they mentioned (only synchronizing the files that were changed) without BT. Hell, what they are basically doing is a SVN for the compiled files and wrapping it in a neat package for the customer.
I really don't need to argue on why I should allow my connection to be used. They should argue on how it's beneficial for me to allow it to be used. I only see a cost reduction for them with nothing relevant for me.
It's a win-win, for them. For me ... I just end up serving CCP and getting the same product in the end. |
Revenald Blackthorne
S.I.D.H.E. Corporation LLIC
2
|
Posted - 2013.03.17 09:53:00 -
[233] - Quote
Why don't you guys do something ground-breaking, game-changing before Steam (or Bungie) launch it? Being able to play EVE without "installation" and download waiting times, or on a tablet or smartphone with gesture virtualization?
http://vimeo.com/numecent/review/50801144/4d16521791
|
Tribe O' Brute
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2013.03.17 10:22:00 -
[234] - Quote
@CCP: My concern lies with Steam. Let there be user choice to use Steam (as it is now). If Steam becomes the only option for distributing EVE, I have to say EVE goodbye. I don't like to have their spyware on my PC and I don't like them controlling what I can and can't do with my software. I'm not a hacker or cheater but I know of reports of users tweaking one game and losing all the games they ever bought through steam. |
Tribe O' Brute
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2013.03.17 10:28:00 -
[235] - Quote
Revenald Blackthorne wrote:Why don't you guys do something ground-breaking, game-changing before Steam (or Bungie) launch it? Being able to play EVE without "installation" and download waiting times, or on a tablet or smartphone with gesture virtualization? No downloads of updates required, ever? Shave your download/upload costs on app delivery by 95%? Shave MY download/upload costs by 95%? Here's a win-win: http://vimeo.com/numecent/review/50801144/4d16521791
This doesn't really work well for CCP for 2 reasons.
1) Long term data transfer would go up because of video transfer vs dry game data. 2) CCP has to pay for the game hardware. Calculations have to be made somewhere.
|
Revenald Blackthorne
S.I.D.H.E. Corporation LLIC
2
|
Posted - 2013.03.17 11:25:00 -
[236] - Quote
Tribe O' Brute wrote:Revenald Blackthorne wrote: This doesn't really work well for CCP for 2 reasons. 1) Long term data transfer would go up because of video transfer vs dry game data. 2) CCP has to pay for the game hardware. Calculations have to be made somewhere.
1) You are making the forgivable mistake of thinking this is streaming. It isn't, hard as it may be to believe. Hence, an immense data transfer decrease (up to 95%). Your data is stored locally, and the app is run as if local, despite being parsed from the Cloud. Hence, the words "game changing" (pardon the pun) 2) This is a software solution. In fact, no hardware need be purchased at all. Additional in fact, because no streaming is involved, hardware utilization is 10x as effective.
|
Messoroz
AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse
357
|
Posted - 2013.03.17 20:37:00 -
[237] - Quote
Thank you CCP, I will be requesting a refund for my subscriptions. You know why? My college campus blocks ALL torrent packets unless they are encrypted(so their ****** filter system cannot detect them). So seeing how I won't be able to update...I believe I won't be able to play. I also don't think mine is the only campus with ridiculous filtering systems. They don't care if it's legitimate files or not, the entire protocol is filtered. Even IRC is filtered out. |
Radius Prime
Tax Evading Ass.
32
|
Posted - 2013.03.17 21:07:00 -
[238] - Quote
Haven't experienced a single problem since you revamped the launcher. Wonder what other people are doing to cause these issues. Anyway, better investigate the validity of their complaints before making changes. Humans, their hardware and their software are more fallible then your launcher so don't try and fix what ain't broken.
Cheers,
Radius Reopen the EVE gate so we can invade Serenity. Goons can go first. |
Barakach
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
153
|
Posted - 2013.03.18 01:56:00 -
[239] - Quote
Sierra Mackenzie wrote:So glad you're dedicating programming time to improving the launcher than improving the actual game. Instead of improving the experience for existing players, they're improving it to draw in new players. Why else would they need to improve Steam integration?
...
Edit: Also, all of the tinfoil hat wearers in this thread crack me up. Oh noes, BitTorrent is going to eat my computer and malicious users are going to have my IP! Whatever shall I do!?
Hard to enjoy the game when it won't load because the launcher needs fixing.
I know, we should stop funding schooling because there are people in Africa that have no food. /sarc
There are priorities, but you can't just stop everything to work on one issue, that's why you have several teams working on different issues. |
Barakach
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
153
|
Posted - 2013.03.18 01:58:00 -
[240] - Quote
xxxTRUSTxxx wrote:I don't wish to share my details nor my network.
give us an off button in the options of the launcher for torrents i will not be allowing uploads from my network.
I'll stick with the HTML download I've always used thanks.
You still upload. If you're using TCP, you're uploading. Best you learn how the Internet works. |
|
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CCP Atropos
C C P C C P Alliance
185
|
Posted - 2013.03.18 10:46:00 -
[241] - Quote
KIller Wabbit wrote:Here's a thought - stop making the client grow to unwieldy sizes! For example - adding code so that character make can be run while the rest of the download is in progress. Creating a character is such an incredibly small part of the EVE experience, in terms of time, that adding yet more bloated code to the package is ridiculous. We expect to have to wait for the download to complete before we start using it.
Drop code that isn't needed. CQ - serves no purpose. Drop it.
Implement better coding practices. Companies can do better at squeezing code. They just put the thought of code bloat aside until they hit the bandwidth/disk image wall. Then they are trapped by a mountain of bloated legacy code.
THE last thing I want on my PC is BitTorrent.
Do something we really want - toon switching without re-launch of client. THAT would be useful. I understand your point, but I have to point out that the code part that you keep referring to is actually very small, in the region of ~6MB for the code we've written. There are of course other code resources but the majority of the client is art and audio assets (approximately 11GB) Product Owner, EVE Launcher | Team Special Circumstances |
|
|
CCP Atropos
C C P C C P Alliance
185
|
Posted - 2013.03.18 10:46:00 -
[242] - Quote
This is actually a very good point. Product Owner, EVE Launcher | Team Special Circumstances |
|
|
CCP Atropos
C C P C C P Alliance
185
|
Posted - 2013.03.18 11:05:00 -
[243] - Quote
Stray Bullets wrote:Haven't seen a single point as to why this should be enabled by default.
Either CCP presents a valid point on why I have to share my bandwidth or I'm just blocking it's peer to peer outgoing traffic. I really don't care about faster download ... it's fast enough as it is. If it's for cutting costs on the expense of bandwidth I paid for personal use, then it's a simple no.
The issues this "feature" raises versus the advantages this presents to the user are completely crap. All the technical aspect of the new launcher can be achieved without using P2P. P2P is just convenient as it allows to shave some costs of publishing the end product. There are a few reasons why I wanted to go with Bittorrent, and none of them revolve around cost.
To explain, every time we patch, there are many people who exist behind restrictive proxies or bad networks that simply can't update their EVE client, with the only recourse being to fully re-download the entire thing. You can see what I mean if you take a spin through some of the other forums, for example here (21 pages), here (16 pages) and here (5 pages).
We have also seen people in various parts of the world getting low transfer rates, which compound the problem for a large client download. By implementing BitTorrent we can work towards solving both of these problems by using a protocol and framework that has been designed and tested for distributing large amounts of data. We no longer have to maintain a custom library, and can benefit from the wisdom of others, whilst also reducing my own burden of having to provide patches as a fallback for people (which is an imperfect solution as it is).
We also have a nice technical benefit of being able to phase out the Repair Tool and SisiLauncher, further reducing our technical burden, since the single EVE Launcher will be able to service all these roles.
I understand that you don't want to help out other players, or open yourself up to any perceived vulnerabilities, but we're trying to help all the players, including the large quantity of people who simply don't read or comment on these forums. Those saying that "this will do nothing for me" are the lucky ones who are currently in a position where everything works as intended. I wish all our customers would be there, but unfortunately they aren't, and we have to provide a solution to help them play the game. Product Owner, EVE Launcher | Team Special Circumstances |
|
Wodensun
ZeroSec
66
|
Posted - 2013.03.18 13:15:00 -
[244] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Wodensun wrote:just make a bloody capture of the network trafic with wireshark GǪor just read the line in full and understand that no information is being shared anyway. Either way works.
I'd consider a list of IPs that run eve clients information. I'd also consider a IP personally identifiable information the fact that you cant think of a attack scenario doesnt make it any less valid of a concern.
because no one ever tied a IP to a person and used it to dox/dos/ect him Theres a reason most BT clients do protocol encryption and bind to different ports on startup
Quote:Protocol encryption (PE), message stream encryption (MSE), or protocol header encrypt (PHE)[1] are related features of some peer-to-peer file-sharing clients, including BitTorrent clients. They attempt to enhance privacy and confidentiality. In addition, they attempt to make traffic harder to identify by third parties including internet service providers (ISPs).
Now dont get me wrong I'm not against using the BT protocol since it definetly enhances the launcher but i'd like to see protocol encryption ect enabled by default.
Say I wanted to tie a IP to a eve character.. I'd harvest all IPs during patch day and subsequent days this would give me a list of all active clients.. I'd then wait for you to come online and start sending custom packets containing a desync to that whole list if I suddenly see you drop I know i hit your IP. I'd then wait for you to come back online and do it again only this time targeted against your IP only to make sure I'm hitting the right adress..
Still not seeing the issue here? |
Stray Bullets
Perkone Caldari State
18
|
Posted - 2013.03.18 19:58:00 -
[245] - Quote
CCP Atropos wrote:Stray Bullets wrote:Haven't seen a single point as to why this should be enabled by default.
Either CCP presents a valid point on why I have to share my bandwidth or I'm just blocking it's peer to peer outgoing traffic. I really don't care about faster download ... it's fast enough as it is. If it's for cutting costs on the expense of bandwidth I paid for personal use, then it's a simple no.
The issues this "feature" raises versus the advantages this presents to the user are completely crap. All the technical aspect of the new launcher can be achieved without using P2P. P2P is just convenient as it allows to shave some costs of publishing the end product. There are a few reasons why I wanted to go with Bittorrent, and none of them revolve around cost. To explain, every time we patch, there are many people who exist behind restrictive proxies or bad networks that simply can't update their EVE client, with the only recourse being to fully re-download the entire thing. You can see what I mean if you take a spin through some of the other forums, for example here (21 pages), here (16 pages) and here (5 pages). We have also seen people in various parts of the world getting low transfer rates, which compound the problem for a large client download. By implementing BitTorrent we can work towards solving both of these problems by using a protocol and framework that has been designed and tested for distributing large amounts of data. We no longer have to maintain a custom library, and can benefit from the wisdom of others, whilst also reducing my own burden of having to provide patches as a fallback, for people (which is an imperfect solution as it is). We also have a nice technical benefit of being able to phase out the Repair Tool and SisiLauncher, further reducing our technical burden, since the single EVE Launcher will be able to service all these roles. I understand that you don't want to help out other players, or open yourself up to any perceived vulnerabilities, but we're trying to help all the players, including the large quantity of people who simply don't read or comment on these forums. Those saying that "this will do nothing for me" are the lucky ones who are currently in a position where everything works as intended. I wish all our customers would be there, but unfortunately they aren't, and we have to provide a solution to help them play the game.
Well, this actually doesn't addressed anything of what I said. There's still no valid point, for me, to have this enabled by default. Ok, so you have a customers who can't use the current launcher and BT will solve their problem. That's fine and very cool of you guys to figure out a solution for them. That solution however can't be using someone elses bandwidth to do so.
In all honesty, I don't care about CCPs burden, nor do I care about the problems of anyone else. It's their problem. I'm not their product publisher. I'm not responsible for the gaming experience that they have. What do I get out of allowing CCP access to my bandwidth? Nothing? The warm fuzzy feeling of helping out a fellow player?
All the technical details are valid but don't require you to enable BT by default on the launcher. It's a simple point. You put the option in, you seed whatever is needed. Anyone who wants to use BT, gets the added bonus of "sharing" bandwidth with anyone else that's either downloading using BT or explicitly said "I want to seed!".
I think that your description of the new launcher, working almost as a source control for the binaries, is awesome. I thank you for all the work you guys put into it, but I can't see one single reason as to why the BT part is ON by default.
Even though I have no lack of bandwidth or have any privacy issues, the lack of "real reasoning" from CCPs part, besides "helping out", leads to say I will be blocking all BT traffic on my computer. It will simply have to behave as if I'm in some campus and have no BT.
Sorry mate :)
Funny thing is, if it were off by default, I'd probably have it seeding permanently ;) It's basically my way of saying "I don't agree with the way this is being "forced"". |
KIller Wabbit
The Scope Gallente Federation
331
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Posted - 2013.03.18 20:51:00 -
[246] - Quote
CCP Atropos wrote:KIller Wabbit wrote:Here's a thought - stop making the client grow to unwieldy sizes! For example - adding code so that character make can be run while the rest of the download is in progress. Creating a character is such an incredibly small part of the EVE experience, in terms of time, that adding yet more bloated code to the package is ridiculous. We expect to have to wait for the download to complete before we start using it.
Drop code that isn't needed. CQ - serves no purpose. Drop it.
Implement better coding practices. Companies can do better at squeezing code. They just put the thought of code bloat aside until they hit the bandwidth/disk image wall. Then they are trapped by a mountain of bloated legacy code.
THE last thing I want on my PC is BitTorrent.
Do something we really want - toon switching without re-launch of client. THAT would be useful. I understand your point, but I have to point out that the code part that you keep referring to is actually very small, in the region of ~6MB for the code we've written. There are of course other code resources but the majority of the client is art and audio assets (approximately 11GB)
"My part of EVE is special and should be included, everyone else is the problem" 6MB here, another 12MB there and whatdya know - code bloat.
"Create while download" will be yet another "Special feature" that will require downloading, updating, and bug fixing - a new support drain while there are many urgently needed new features and other bugs in existing features that are more highly utilized in everyday EVE play.
I say work on getting the game out of the way so we can play.
CCP Punkturis-á "I want to get in on the goodposter circle jerk!"
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CCP Atropos
C C P C C P Alliance
194
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Posted - 2013.03.19 08:45:00 -
[247] - Quote
Stray Bullets wrote:Funny thing is, if it were off by default, I'd probably have it seeding permanently ;) It's basically my way of saying "I don't agree with the way this is being "forced"". And this is why we're providing the option to disable it. If we were truly forcing it, there wouldn't even be that option Product Owner, EVE Launcher | Team Special Circumstances |
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coolzero
The Replicators Orchestrated Alliance
67
|
Posted - 2013.03.19 08:52:00 -
[248] - Quote
another option i like to see is when you have multy instals of the clients(like i have) that the launcher will download the update file to a central point so when you launch another client(launcher) it will see the updated file to use instead of they way its like now where it wont check and downloads the file again just for the other clients... |
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CCP Atropos
C C P C C P Alliance
194
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Posted - 2013.03.19 08:53:00 -
[249] - Quote
coolzero wrote:another option i like to see is when you have multy instals of the clients(like i have) that the launcher will download the update file to a central point so when you launch another client(launcher) it will see the updated file to use instead of they way its like now where it wont check and downloads the file again just for the other clients... You can do this in the current EVE Launcher, on Windows, by using the import/export functionality in the settings menu. We actually want to move away from multiple installs so that this won't be something that you need to do. Product Owner, EVE Launcher | Team Special Circumstances |
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coolzero
The Replicators Orchestrated Alliance
67
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Posted - 2013.03.19 09:13:00 -
[250] - Quote
CCP Atropos wrote:coolzero wrote:another option i like to see is when you have multy instals of the clients(like i have) that the launcher will download the update file to a central point so when you launch another client(launcher) it will see the updated file to use instead of they way its like now where it wont check and downloads the file again just for the other clients... You can do this in the current EVE Launcher, on Windows, by using the import/export functionality in the settings menu. We actually want to move away from multiple installs so that this won't be something that you need to do.
ok didnt know about this option(i cant know everything right and any laucher/updater should do that by default :P )
and doing away with multible installs is fine with me as long as why i do it now is that the different installs have different graphics options(my booster doesnt need all the shiny graphics)
less install = also less room taken on HD
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Kenpachi Viktor
Gradient Electus Matari
247
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Posted - 2013.03.19 09:41:00 -
[251] - Quote
I currently have a steam install, and an non steam install. How will you enable the functionality to run Eve with or without steam using the same client install? A war that wouldGÇÖve involved 20,000 players, 75% of nullsec space, and hundreds of supercapitals was halted not by diplomacy, but by a game mechanic so dreadful that those who have experienced it previously have no desire to do so again. - Fix POS & SOV |
Sinq Arnolles
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
8
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Posted - 2013.03.19 10:15:00 -
[252] - Quote
CCP Atropos wrote:coolzero wrote:another option i like to see is when you have multy instals of the clients(like i have) that the launcher will download the update file to a central point so when you launch another client(launcher) it will see the updated file to use instead of they way its like now where it wont check and downloads the file again just for the other clients... You can do this in the current EVE Launcher, on Windows, by using the import/export functionality in the settings menu. We actually want to move away from multiple installs so that this won't be something that you need to do.
Make it so I can set the client to a different monitor with a command line switch so I don't have to have a separate client so the settings are saved differently and I wouldn't be using multiple installations anymore.
You could do this before but I couldn't remember how to do it after I came back to the game. |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
1226
|
Posted - 2013.03.19 10:57:00 -
[253] - Quote
Sinq Arnolles wrote:CCP Atropos wrote:coolzero wrote:another option i like to see is when you have multy instals of the clients(like i have) that the launcher will download the update file to a central point so when you launch another client(launcher) it will see the updated file to use instead of they way its like now where it wont check and downloads the file again just for the other clients... You can do this in the current EVE Launcher, on Windows, by using the import/export functionality in the settings menu. We actually want to move away from multiple installs so that this won't be something that you need to do. Make it so I can set the client to a different monitor with a command line switch so I don't have to have a separate client so the settings are saved differently and I wouldn't be using multiple installations anymore. You could do this before but I couldn't remember how to do it after I came back to the game.
Easiest option is to junction the client to a new location. No extra space, but you're starting it from a new location, which means a new set of settings. http://wiki.eveonline.com/wiki/Multiple_clients Steve Ronuken for CSM 8 Handy tools and SDE conversions Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter |
Sinq Arnolles
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
8
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Posted - 2013.03.19 15:02:00 -
[254] - Quote
Steve Ronuken wrote:Sinq Arnolles wrote:CCP Atropos wrote:coolzero wrote:another option i like to see is when you have multy instals of the clients(like i have) that the launcher will download the update file to a central point so when you launch another client(launcher) it will see the updated file to use instead of they way its like now where it wont check and downloads the file again just for the other clients... You can do this in the current EVE Launcher, on Windows, by using the import/export functionality in the settings menu. We actually want to move away from multiple installs so that this won't be something that you need to do. Make it so I can set the client to a different monitor with a command line switch so I don't have to have a separate client so the settings are saved differently and I wouldn't be using multiple installations anymore. You could do this before but I couldn't remember how to do it after I came back to the game. Easiest option is to junction the client to a new location. No extra space, but you're starting it from a new location, which means a new set of settings. http://wiki.eveonline.com/wiki/Multiple_clients I already do this. |
KIller Wabbit
The Scope Gallente Federation
332
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Posted - 2013.03.19 16:28:00 -
[255] - Quote
Kenpachi Viktor wrote:I currently have a steam install, and an non steam install. How will you enable the functionality to run Eve with or without steam using the same client install?
I have the exact schzoid installation as well. Will the be a migration path spelled out? I don't care whether I stay on Steam or completely off of it.
CCP Punkturis-á "I want to get in on the goodposter circle jerk!"
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Oxigun
Galt Innovations Eve Engineering
12
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Posted - 2013.03.19 17:15:00 -
[256] - Quote
Please:
1) Put a PERMANENT LINK on the launcher for Patch Notes. 2) Post Patch Notes EVERY TIME you update the client. I don't care if it's DUST only, put a blurb in there.
It's not my job to find out what you did to the game, it's your job to tell me what you did!
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Stray Bullets
Perkone Caldari State
22
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Posted - 2013.03.19 19:09:00 -
[257] - Quote
CCP Atropos wrote:Stray Bullets wrote:Funny thing is, if it were off by default, I'd probably have it seeding permanently ;) It's basically my way of saying "I don't agree with the way this is being "forced"". And this is why we're providing the option to disable it. If we were truly forcing it, there wouldn't even be that option
You better than any player know that 95% of the community doesn't read blogs, doesn't read the forum and simply doesn't care. Enabling it by default is basically taking advantage of all those people to solve your distribution problems. Seems like a sleazy move any way you slice it.
If it's good, people will enable it and use it. There's no need to basically "sneak" this into the launcher.
My 2 cents. I'll still be blocking all BT traffic in my computer just in case ... I'm too lazy to actually check if your launcher is doing what you say it's doing! |
The Baby-sitter
Vitriol Ventures Tribal Band
2
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Posted - 2013.03.19 23:59:00 -
[258] - Quote
CCP Atropos wrote:Stray Bullets wrote:Funny thing is, if it were off by default, I'd probably have it seeding permanently ;) It's basically my way of saying "I don't agree with the way this is being "forced"". And this is why we're providing the option to disable it. If we were truly forcing it, there wouldn't even be that option
C'Mon - we all know how this plays out. You default it - uninformed users don't switch it off. You get the benefit.
The ethical thing to do here is default to off and educate your user base.
Please don't play the big-brother game with your users!
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Acks
RONA Corporation RONA Directorate
39
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Posted - 2013.03.20 03:03:00 -
[259] - Quote
CCP Atropos wrote:BigDaddyMcFatSacks wrote:want nothing to do with bit torrent or anything like that.
If I cant disable it completely and download from EVE servers, well this is where we are gonna part ways after all these years. Can you elaborate on why you don't want to be part of it. We can't account for this response if it's just "because".
Ok ... This right here is where you (CCP) have fallen down so so so many times before.
If you are going to still have the current HTTP patch method for when the Torrent does not work, simply add a check box allowing users to "opt out" of the use of torrent technology.
It does not matter if a user has a solid technical reason why they do not want to use torrent technology, have some moral issue with it, or (as far as you may be concerned) are a member of the tinfoil hat club. If you give the users the option to opt out and use the tech that they already do and that you are planning on still supporting, you end all debate, push back, rabble rousing, or pitchfork wielding.
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Tanegra
Bite Me inc Bitten.
1
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Posted - 2013.03.20 22:46:00 -
[260] - Quote
Please include the ability to turn it off -- some of us live under repressive network administrators who block every port known to man... :-). |
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Melithan
Cascadia Corporation
0
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Posted - 2013.03.21 22:22:00 -
[261] - Quote
I'm sure this has been said before, but since I haven't been able to read the entire thread yet (there's a lot!) I'll risk restating the sentiment of others:
I know that CCP does not officially support Linux anymore, but a lot of Linux users run Eve under Wine, myself included. For the most part it works pretty well.
As you're probably aware, updates are a nuisance due to the need to run winecfg and switch the builtin|native Wine settings for the MSVCRT (Visual C++ Runtime) during the patch process. This often results in the need to download and run the full installer. That ain't quick or convenient.
I saw that the updater was being rewritten to work more smoothly and I hope that you'll consider making the Linux via Wine experience more convenient. The number of Linux players of Eve is probably under-reported because most of us run via Wine or Virtualbox but in any case is probably a tiny fraction of your userbase. Even so, I hope you'll take us into consideration with the rewrite. |
xxxTRUSTxxx
Galactic Rangers R O G U E
131
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Posted - 2013.03.22 12:23:00 -
[262] - Quote
Barakach wrote:xxxTRUSTxxx wrote:I don't wish to share my details nor my network.
give us an off button in the options of the launcher for torrents i will not be allowing uploads from my network.
I'll stick with the HTML download I've always used thanks. You still upload. If you're using TCP, you're uploading. Best you learn how the Internet works.
wow, i never knew that ffs
anyway there will be an option to disable, i'm happy. |
xxxTRUSTxxx
Galactic Rangers R O G U E
131
|
Posted - 2013.03.22 12:39:00 -
[263] - Quote
CCP Atropos wrote: And this is why we're providing the option to disable it. If we were truly forcing it, there wouldn't even be that option
thank you |
Haifisch Zahne
Hraka Manufacture GmbH
199
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Posted - 2013.03.22 21:45:00 -
[264] - Quote
There was no further mention in the devblog, and I haven't finished reading the comments (yeah, barely started), but was there any talk about the Steam aspect of the new launcher which was mentioned but glossed over? When I read the header, "WTF?", I thought it would have to do with this.
So, WTF? Steam now?! |
Caesar Rae
Legio VIII Augusta The Ancients.
2
|
Posted - 2013.03.23 16:22:00 -
[265] - Quote
Hosedna wrote:BigDaddyMcFatSacks wrote:Phext wrote:BigDaddyMcFatSacks wrote: 1) Security. IP being able to be known by others
Not an issue at all. Generally speaking, without the other side knowing your IP, the Net would be a boring place... I think you misunderstand. As stated a few posts above someone could find out your ip thru P2P and then flood you rendering your connection basically useless. Maybe that is extreme, but it is certainly an issue. You know, if you have absolutely no knowledge of how a network works and network security, you just shouldn't speak of it. Otherwise you appear as a superstitious medieval peasant speaking of technology...
What he speaks of (BigDaddy) is technically plausible Hosenda, however, who is going to spend the time and effort to do that for a single resident user. Highly unlikely. |
Caesar Rae
Legio VIII Augusta The Ancients.
2
|
Posted - 2013.03.23 16:36:00 -
[266] - Quote
Melithan wrote:I'm sure this has been said before, but since I haven't been able to read the entire thread yet (there's a lot!) I'll risk restating the sentiment of others:
I know that CCP does not officially support Linux anymore, but a lot of Linux users run Eve under Wine, myself included. For the most part it works pretty well.
As you're probably aware, updates are a nuisance due to the need to run winecfg and switch the builtin|native Wine settings for the MSVCRT (Visual C++ Runtime) during the patch process. This often results in the need to download and run the full installer. That ain't quick or convenient.
I saw that the updater was being rewritten to work more smoothly and I hope that you'll consider making the Linux via Wine experience more convenient. The number of Linux players of Eve is probably under-reported because most of us run via Wine or Virtualbox but in any case is probably a tiny fraction of your userbase. Even so, I hope you'll take us into consideration with the rewrite.
Although I have not taken the time to do a Linux toy box yet. I would like to be able to know that my favorite toy, Eve, works well in it too. |
Margaret Croke
East Eve Trading Co Moist.
0
|
Posted - 2013.04.01 17:18:00 -
[267] - Quote
Any estimate on when is it coming up? Along with Odyssey? |
Pumuckel Bygderocker
Indy Tycoons
0
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Posted - 2013.04.28 15:03:00 -
[268] - Quote
What about Adding to the Eve launcher Window
Eve Influence map Of the Allinces and Faction Warfare ;) |
Lithorn
The Dark Tribe
22
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Posted - 2013.05.01 01:07:00 -
[269] - Quote
CCP Guard wrote:CCP Aporia and friends are working on the launcher and how updates are delivered to your EVE client. Please check out their latest dev blog right here and don't hesitate to launch your comments and questions our way! This is perhaps the wrong place to post it but there appears to be a major problem (for me maybe) with the procedure for making a SISI client out of the TQ client VIA copying it or just installing another one from scratch. The patching tool from the launcher blindly patches EVERY instance of the eve client on my machine reguardless of what server each instance is patched for. IE: If I run the patcher for SISI it patches TQ , If I need to run TQ and I run the patcher and it patches SISI client also, etc. I forgot to mention this at FF. Could get someone to look into this please? (yes I use seperate directory trees and seperate launcher paths for the clients before anyone bothers to ask. Using Win 7 64 Ult) |
loquacious7
Pawnstars INC The Fendahlian Collective
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.06 23:39:00 -
[270] - Quote
I have almost the same problem with sisi "skyneting" my TQ launcher. separate launchers from separate folders ending terribly with 5 gb+ download because I had to wipe both folders clean to log back into TQ :-( And wow what a slow speed todays patch's were. Have we already changed to BT? felt very familiar like my machine could find no seed to stream from. Barren for no seed to find purchase :-)
Lithorn wrote:CCP Guard wrote:CCP Aporia and friends are working on the launcher and how updates are delivered to your EVE client. Please check out their latest dev blog right here and don't hesitate to launch your comments and questions our way! This is perhaps the wrong place to post it but there appears to be a major problem (for me maybe) with the procedure for making a SISI client out of the TQ client VIA copying it or just installing another one from scratch. The patching tool from the launcher blindly patches EVERY instance of the eve client on my machine reguardless of what server each instance is patched for. IE: If I run the patcher for SISI it patches TQ , If I need to run TQ and I run the patcher and it patches SISI client also, etc. I forgot to mention this at FF. Could get someone to look into this please? (yes I use seperate directory trees and seperate launcher paths for the clients before anyone bothers to ask. Using Win 7 64 Ult)
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