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Bi-Mi Lansatha
Tactical Universal Research and Development Caldari Industrialist Association
7
|
Posted - 2013.03.13 13:17:00 -
[61] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Jonah Gravenstein wrote:It's a damn good ship to mine in, cheap to replace, tanks like a monster, mines as much as a Retriever, no, it doesn't. The ore hold was smaller than a retriever, so overall my ability to mine was less per hour... but it was a good ship. I never really felt threatened in that ship: it was too in-expensive and to 'tanked' to be attractive to 'gankers'.
I always wanted a Skiff, but got out of mining and into L4s before I had the skills. |

Beckie DeLey
Living From Scraps
353
|
Posted - 2013.03.13 13:38:00 -
[62] - Quote
Friggz wrote:To me a much shorter explanation would be this:
A carebear doesn't like pvp and also feels they should be completely immune to it if they so choose and would perfer to only engage in activites with no risk.
An industrialist doesn't like pvp but recognizes it is a part of EvE. They weigh the pros and cons and take risks they believe will ultimately benefit them in the long run.
Didn't completely read the OP because TL;DR, but this is pretty much spot on.
Haulie Berry wrote:The industrialist doesn't mine.
Mining is peasant work.
Also this. So... i started an industry blog at www.derbk.com/eve There i am preparing a guide to all things related to manufacturing. Check it out!
|

Felicity Love
STARKRAFT
322
|
Posted - 2013.03.13 13:40:00 -
[63] - Quote
Damn... and here I was expecting another "A carebear, a nullbear and a low sec pirate walk into a bar one day... " joke thread... leaving EXTREMELY disappointed. 
Proud Beta Tester for "Bumping Uglies for Dummies" |

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
13213
|
Posted - 2013.03.13 13:53:00 -
[64] - Quote
Felicity Love wrote:Damn... and here I was expecting another "A carebear, a nullbear and a low sec pirate walk into a bar one day... " joke thread... leaving EXTREMELY disappointed.  A carebear, a nullbear, and a lowsec pirate walk into a bar and walk up to the barman.
GÇ£Why do you let these people into the bar?!GÇ¥, asks the carebear. GÇ£I pay you money to be able to sit down and drink my tea.GÇ¥ He then sits down and mutters about other people having the audacity to frequent the same public establishment he does.
GÇ£Why do you you only serve tea?!GÇ¥ asks the nullbear. GÇ£When I pay money in a bar, I expect it to serve me something more than that.GÇ¥ He then takes his cup of tea and sits down to compose a letter to the proprietor explaining why bars should serve strong drinks.
Finally, the lowsec pirate saunters up to the barman. GÇ£Give me all your money!GÇ¥ Vote Malcanis for CSM8. |

HollyShocker 2inthestink
State War Academy Caldari State
175
|
Posted - 2013.03.13 14:03:00 -
[65] - Quote
Sabriz Adoudel wrote:Two people - a carebear and an EVE industralist - are mining in Mackinaws in high security space. Suddenly a fleet of ten Catalysts appears, piloted by outlaws. Each Mackinaw is targetted by five of them, pointed before they can warp out, and reduced to scrap metal. CONCORD arrives on the scene and gives the Catalysts a red card, blowing all of them to smithereens.
The Carebear Approach:
The carebear returns from their AFK and he sees himself in the clone bay in the station in the system. He complains loudly in local chat about the unfair treatment, sits in his pod in the local station, file GM petitions accusing the Catalyst pilots of cheating and logs off and posts a forum rant about being harrassed.
Sometimes he also does one of the following: - Begs in local - Threatens to get his nullsec main character to wardec the Catalyst pilots - Threatens real life consequences against the Catalyst pilots or makes derogatory comments about the players involved (not the characters but the players) - Gets into another Mackinaw and starts mining in the same place again - Complains 'That ship was everything I owned'.
Three months later, he hasn't learned anything, and the net result of the Catalyst attack is that he lost a 250m Mack fit and a 300m pod.
The EVE industrialist
Firstly, our EVE industrialist follows the first rule of EVE - never undock in a ship you cannot afford to lose - and so the lost Mackinaw, whilst perhaps a painful loss, won't be more than a quarter of her assets. If she couldn't afford the loss, she'd have flown a tech 1 ship instead. She also follows the third rule of EVE - never be AFK when not docked or behind a POS shield, so her pod warps out before anyone can pop her (much cheaper) implants.
She asks herself three questions. "What could I have done to avoid this trap?" "OK, I lost my ship, what's the most I can quickly salvage from this bad situation?". And finally "Are there long-term profit opportunities in this for me?"
She addresses the second first - she warps to a nearby station, reships into a Myrmidon (the tankiest ship she has handy), fits Salvager 2 modules, and loots and salvages her destroyed ship, the Catalysts, and then salvages and finally loots the carebear's ship, invoking a yellow card from Crimewatch (but who will attack a suspect-flagged Myrmidon in an asteroid belt, looks like an obvious trap there). She then returns to station with a third of her losses recovered.
The EVE industrialist then asks around for help from other players as to how she could have avoided the Catalyst trap as she hasn't got the PVP experience to answer this herself. She is told 'check D-scan' and 'tank your Mack better' by more experienced players in local. So she puts training Cruiser Construction 5 on hold to train how to fit a Damage Control II module and, not understanding how D-scan would be useful, looks up a D-scan tutorial on Youtube and decides 'in future, 4 or more Catalysts within 5AU means I stop mining and insta-warp out'. Of course this lowers her mining yield somewhat as she is spooked by Catalysts that had other targets, but to save a 200m+ ship she thinks losing a small amount of yield is worth it.
Finally, she looks at the third question. Judging by the other comments in local chat, he and the carebear were not the only people to lose Mackinaws and Hulks to Catalyst gangs in this system recently - there seems to be an epidemic of it. She considers the potential to profit from this increased demand for Mackinaws, Hulks, Catalysts, Small Neutron Blaster I's, Magnetic Stabilizer I's, Small Hybrid Burst Aerators, Warp Scrambler I's, Warp Disruptor I's and looks into what is involved in producing those. After some quick research, she decides that making mining barges requires too much capital and so she decides to invest 60m ISK and a fortnight of her POS science slots to researching ten Catalyst BPOs. WIthin weeks she is selling 150 Catalysts a day in the system, with a cool 200k markup on each one, while her own mining operations (which increasingly she is less reliant upon as a source of income with all the Catalyst production) take place four jumps away in a quieter system where local seldom has more than eight people in it.
When the Catalyst sales start dropping off as the anti-mining gangs move to other systems, she then cashes out, selling her Catalyst BPOs for a tidy profit to other industrialists desparate to make ISK out of the miner extermination campaign. She then puts all of this ISK together and invests in what she could not afford before - a 2500m ISK well researched Retriever BPO - and offers a courier contract at a high price (with a 3b collateral) to take this BPO to the new site of the miner extermination campaign.
Within three months of the Catalyst gang attack, she's turned a painful loss into a massive business and is on the way to becoming spacerich.
I know this is fiction right off the bat. The OP reference the smart industrialist as gender specific GÇ£sheGÇ¥ |

HollyShocker 2inthestink
State War Academy Caldari State
175
|
Posted - 2013.03.13 14:04:00 -
[66] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Felicity Love wrote:Damn... and here I was expecting another "A carebear, a nullbear and a low sec pirate walk into a bar one day... " joke thread... leaving EXTREMELY disappointed.  A carebear, a nullbear, and a lowsec pirate walk into a bar and walk up to the barman. GÇ£Why do you let these people into the bar?!GÇ¥, asks the carebear. GÇ£I pay you money to be able to sit down and drink my tea.GÇ¥ He then sits down and mutters about other people having the audacity to frequent the same public establishment he does. GÇ£Why do you you only serve tea?!GÇ¥ asks the nullbear. GÇ£When I pay money in a bar, I expect it to serve me something more than that.GÇ¥ He then takes his cup of tea and sits down to compose a letter to the proprietor explaining why bars should serve strong drinks. Finally, the lowsec pirate saunters up to the barman. GÇ£Give me all your money!GÇ¥
Still waiting....... |

Athena Maldoran
Special Nymphs On A Mission
150
|
Posted - 2013.03.13 14:08:00 -
[67] - Quote
CONFIRMING I AM A CAREBEAR  |

Notorious Fellon
Republic University Minmatar Republic
19
|
Posted - 2013.03.13 14:50:00 -
[68] - Quote
Why the need to label people? Everyone is unique and exists in gray areas on all scales. Placing the label "carebear" or "nullbear" on anyone is childish at best. I am certain I may have done it in the past, but I try to avoid it. Starting a thread over it? Move on people...move on. |

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
13215
|
Posted - 2013.03.13 14:58:00 -
[69] - Quote
HollyShocker 2inthestink wrote:Still waiting....... See? Hilarious! 
Vote Malcanis for CSM8. |

LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
521
|
Posted - 2013.03.13 15:21:00 -
[70] - Quote
Both the carebear and the industrialist ask, Why do you so so badly at PvP that you have to gank exhumers that can't shoot back, just to grow your epeen?
Real PvPers fight other players that are ready and looking for a fight.
I guess you salt snails and pull wings off flies, just to show you have some power over your miserable existence. |

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
13216
|
Posted - 2013.03.13 15:25:00 -
[71] - Quote
LHA Tarawa wrote:Both the carebear and the industrialist ask, Why do you so so badly at PvP that you have to gank exhumers that can't shoot back, just to grow your epeen?
GǪwhereas the industrialist rubs his hands with glee at the increased sales.  Vote Malcanis for CSM8. |

Velicitia
Open Designs
1233
|
Posted - 2013.03.13 15:27:00 -
[72] - Quote
LHA Tarawa wrote:Both the carebear and the industrialist ask, Why do you so so badly at PvP that you have to gank exhumers that can't shoot back, just to grow your epeen?
Real PvPers fight other players that are ready and looking for a fight.
I guess you salt snails and pull wings off flies, just to show you have some power over your miserable existence.
I wouldn't say that someone ganking Exhumers (or anything for that matter) is "bad" at PvP.
Yes, what they did was underhanded. Yes, it pisses people off. But what it doesn't (inherently) show is that the person is "bad" at PvP (they might be ... but killing exhumers doesn't prove they are).
I'm honestly 100% "bad" at FiS PvP. BUT that hasn't stopped me from looking for fights in low ... or stepping up if/when dec'd... One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia Malcanis for CSM8 |

Alara IonStorm
4561
|
Posted - 2013.03.13 15:41:00 -
[73] - Quote
Velicitia wrote: I wouldn't say that someone ganking Exhumers (or anything for that matter) is "bad" at PvP.
Yes, what they did was underhanded. Yes, it pisses people off. But what it doesn't (inherently) show is that the person is "bad" at PvP (they might be ... but killing exhumers doesn't prove they are).
I'm honestly 100% "bad" at FiS PvP. BUT that hasn't stopped me from looking for fights in low ... or stepping up if/when dec'd...
People who lose ships by an underhanded blow like a gank need to have something to hang their hat on. That they are cowardly has always been the go to self motivation tool for people who have been set upon by a more powerful force in real life and fiction.
Some people who do PvP in combat see it as a play style rather then an event and get to tout and enjoy their assumed superiority. |

Mehashi 'Kho
Idiot with a gun
62
|
Posted - 2013.03.13 15:43:00 -
[74] - Quote
An industrialist knows that ships blowing up is a good thing, and sometimes that ship will be his own. *
A carebear as I understand the term is more someone who wishes they wouldn't blow up at all. Or would respawn like in that star trek mmo or something. I see no causal connection between being an industrialist and not being interested in the pvp elements of the game.
* true story, when I first started playing I used to sit an alt in a belt in arnon mining, on this particular occasion a noctis warped into belt and started salvaging wrecks and then promptly turned red having heartlessly stolen the 100 antimatter I left in a wreck. I swapped to a frigate and destroyed him, at that age even shooting an unarmed ship felt like an acheivement. So I was pretty happy with my day at this point, when lo and behold 2 minutes later someone buys one of my noctis' and 3 salvager rigs. No it couldn't be... but it was! The very same thief, buying his redemption from me.
From that moment on I always knew my desire to learn pvp and skills at manufacturing and trading would become inextricably linked. |

Velicitia
Open Designs
1233
|
Posted - 2013.03.13 15:46:00 -
[75] - Quote
Alara IonStorm wrote:Velicitia wrote: I wouldn't say that someone ganking Exhumers (or anything for that matter) is "bad" at PvP.
Yes, what they did was underhanded. Yes, it pisses people off. But what it doesn't (inherently) show is that the person is "bad" at PvP (they might be ... but killing exhumers doesn't prove they are).
I'm honestly 100% "bad" at FiS PvP. BUT that hasn't stopped me from looking for fights in low ... or stepping up if/when dec'd...
People who lose ships by an underhanded blow like a gank need to have something to hang their hat on. That they are cowardly has always been the go to self motivation tool for people who have been set upon by a more powerful force in real life and fiction. Some people who do PvP in combat see it as a play style rather then an event and get to tout and enjoy their assumed superiority.
They can sell the ganker a new catalyst?  One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia Malcanis for CSM8 |
|

CCP Gargant
C C P C C P Alliance
487

|
Posted - 2013.03.13 15:58:00 -
[76] - Quote
Thread cleaned up further. Please don't troll or flame just because you have another opinion, kthx. CCP Gargant | Community Representative | EVE Illuminati |
|

T'Laar Bok
72
|
Posted - 2013.03.13 16:01:00 -
[77] - Quote
Benny Ohu wrote:T'Laar Bok wrote:Your post is what is conceived by the common riffraff and you as stereotypical carebear behavior and yet in a few lines I proved you incorrect in your assumptions. Stop trying to fit everyone in a box that is to your liking.
The rest TL;DR.
you completely missed the point of the OP.
As I didn't read the entire post that doesn't surprise me. But I believe I got my point across that putting people in nice neat little boxes especially in this game is almost pointless. Amphetimines are your friend.
http://eveboard.com/pilot/T'Laar_Bok |

Dave Stark
1983
|
Posted - 2013.03.13 16:04:00 -
[78] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Jonah Gravenstein wrote:It's a damn good ship to mine in, cheap to replace, tanks like a monster, mines as much as a Retriever, no, it doesn't. I beg to differ, a Procuror with a Strip Miner I and an MLU I mines exactly the same m3 per cycle as a Retriever with 2 Strip Miner I and an MLU I, at least with my mining alts skills. The difference is in the Ore hold, not the quantity mined per cycle, I can but don't use crystals or Strip Miner IIs, not worth it in highsec tbh for the amount that I mine.
except you won't leave the retriever's third low slot empty, you'll put another mlu in there, so it'll mine more than a procurer. you're tired, stop posting. |

Roime
Shiva Furnace
2224
|
Posted - 2013.03.13 16:10:00 -
[79] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Felicity Love wrote:Damn... and here I was expecting another "A carebear, a nullbear and a low sec pirate walk into a bar one day... " joke thread... leaving EXTREMELY disappointed.  A carebear, a nullbear, and a lowsec pirate walk into a bar and walk up to the barman. GÇ£Why do you let these people into the bar?!GÇ¥, asks the carebear. GÇ£I pay you money to be able to sit down and drink my tea.GÇ¥ He then sits down and mutters about other people having the audacity to frequent the same public establishment he does. GÇ£Why do you you only serve tea?!GÇ¥ asks the nullbear. GÇ£When I pay money in a bar, I expect it to serve me something more than that.GÇ¥ He then takes his cup of tea and sits down to compose a letter to the proprietor explaining why bars should serve strong drinks. Finally, the lowsec pirate saunters up to the barman. GÇ£Give me all your money!GÇ¥

-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |

De'Veldrin
East India Ore Trade The East India Co.
1163
|
Posted - 2013.03.13 16:14:00 -
[80] - Quote
A carebear and an industrialist walk into an over-generalized forum thread...
Malcanis for CSM 8
Eve Online: The full-contact sport for your brain. Twitter --á@DeVeldrin |

Ginger Barbarella
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
1209
|
Posted - 2013.03.13 16:30:00 -
[81] - Quote
Your first and most glaring mistake is that industrialists are miners. The two are VASTLY different professions in-game, and to base your post on this flawed concept makes the entire post unreadable. I have multiple INDUSTRIALIST alts on different accounts, and NONE of them mine. I stopped reading the post at this mistake.
Re-think and re-post; I'll read the new version. "Blow it all on Quafe and strippers." --- Sorlac |

Benny Ohu
Chaotic Tranquility Casoff
911
|
Posted - 2013.03.13 16:35:00 -
[82] - Quote
T'Laar Bok wrote:As I didn't read the entire post that doesn't surprise me. But I believe I got my point across that putting people in nice neat little boxes especially in this game is almost pointless. Yeah, but I don't think the idea is to say people are always in one of these two groups. |

Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami No Value
270
|
Posted - 2013.03.13 16:46:00 -
[83] - Quote
Carebears are simply people who do not seek retaliation when something happens they do not agree with, or seek someone else out to do their retaliating.
Hence why "nullbears" exist as well.
An industrialist is naturally a carebear by profession.
Being a "carebear" is only a slight from those who thrive on misery and wanton destruction/grief.
Otherwise it's merely a description. There will always be "exception to the rule" because well, it isn't a rule.
It's a word. "I say tomato, you say tomaCCP BAN ALL TOMATOES THEY ARE HARASSING ME I WANT TOMATO FREE HIGHSEC."-á -TheGunslinger42 Proud enforcer of the Code, see [url]http://www.minerbumping.com[/url]-á for details. |

Benny Ohu
Chaotic Tranquility Casoff
912
|
Posted - 2013.03.13 16:47:00 -
[84] - Quote
Ginger Barbarella wrote:Your first and most glaring mistake is that industrialists are miners. The two are VASTLY different professions in-game, and to base your post on this flawed concept makes the entire post unreadable. I have multiple INDUSTRIALIST alts on different accounts, and NONE of them mine. I stopped reading the post at this mistake.
Re-think and re-post; I'll read the new version. *spoken very slowly* the post is not saying all industrialists are miners, it's just labelling one of the example characters. jesus. |

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
13219
|
Posted - 2013.03.13 16:52:00 -
[85] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote:An industrialist is naturally a carebear by profession. Quite the opposite: industrialists are, by virtue of their profession, not carebears. They wouldn't survive long in their profession if they wereGǪ
Vote Malcanis for CSM8. |

Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami No Value
270
|
Posted - 2013.03.13 16:54:00 -
[86] - Quote
Benny Ohu wrote:T'Laar Bok wrote:As I didn't read the entire post that doesn't surprise me. But I believe I got my point across that putting people in nice neat little boxes especially in this game is almost pointless. Yeah, but I don't think the idea is to say people are always in one of these two groups. It's just sticking a couple of example attitudes next to each other for comparison.
The example given could also be the same person at different points in their eve career as well. "I say tomato, you say tomaCCP BAN ALL TOMATOES THEY ARE HARASSING ME I WANT TOMATO FREE HIGHSEC."-á -TheGunslinger42 Proud enforcer of the Code, see [url]http://www.minerbumping.com[/url]-á for details. |

Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami No Value
270
|
Posted - 2013.03.13 16:55:00 -
[87] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:An industrialist is naturally a carebear by profession. Quite the opposite: industrialists are, by virtue of their profession, not carebears. They wouldn't survive long in their profession if they wereGǪ
Sure they would. You don't need to travel or fight in combat to be an industrialist. "I say tomato, you say tomaCCP BAN ALL TOMATOES THEY ARE HARASSING ME I WANT TOMATO FREE HIGHSEC."-á -TheGunslinger42 Proud enforcer of the Code, see [url]http://www.minerbumping.com[/url]-á for details. |

Velicitia
Open Designs
1233
|
Posted - 2013.03.13 16:56:00 -
[88] - Quote
Ginger Barbarella wrote:Your first and most glaring mistake is that industrialists are miners. The two are VASTLY different professions in-game, and to base your post on this flawed concept makes the entire post unreadable. I have multiple INDUSTRIALIST alts on different accounts, and NONE of them mine. I stopped reading the post at this mistake.
Re-think and re-post; I'll read the new version.
all swans are white birds, but not all white birds are swans...
all miners are industrialist toons, though not all industrialist toons are miners.
Since you're only a few months old, I assume you're new (and not just a forum alt). Quick history lesson here -- used to be that the two camps were "carebears" and "pvpers". Now, at some point, it would seem that the whining of a very specific subset of carebears got vocal enough about the "unfairness" of eve that the current "industrialist" class of players wanted to distance themselves from the "petulant little child" image that this subset of players was creating for the "carebears".
As for the argument against "we shouldn't pigeonhole people into a few groups", we pretty much have that just because it's easier to use large/general group than try and use the exact thing we're doing at the time...
PvPer (Includes combat pilot, marketeer/trader, etc) Missioner (includes Incursion runner, explorer, etc) Industrialist (includes miners, manufacturers, inventors, etc) Carebear (mostly seems to be made up of miners ... though any whiny person in any general group could be a carebear) One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia Malcanis for CSM8 |

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
13220
|
Posted - 2013.03.13 17:00:00 -
[89] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote:Sure they would. You don't need to travel or fight in combat to be an industrialist. GǪand combat is not the only form of destructive conflict. Being industrialists, they engage in all the other kinds (many of them far more damaging to the opponent that just a ship going poof).
If the industrialists were carebears, they would end up with nothing (or at least very little), which goes rather against the goal of being an industrialist to begin with.
Vote Malcanis for CSM8. |

Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami No Value
270
|
Posted - 2013.03.13 17:12:00 -
[90] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:Sure they would. You don't need to travel or fight in combat to be an industrialist. GǪand combat is not the only form of destructive conflict. Being industrialists, they engage in all the other kinds (many of them far more damaging to the opponent that just a ship going poof). If the industrialists were carebears, they would end up with nothing (or at least very little), which goes rather against the goal of being an industrialist to begin with.
Too many absolutes for such loosely used terms.
Industrialists like and want to build, because it's a non combative form for profit. Combat is the vehicle that drives their market. I rarely see an industrialist flying his own(or her) ship into combat to make that profit. Whether that be a stockpile of ore or researching the blueprint used to create the ship.
Industrialists need the market, not the combat, to make a profit. Combat is merely one way to facilitate that. Otherwise what you are saying is a jump freighter would never be built.
Differentiating between carebear and industrialist is nothing but the spelling of the word. I'll show you.
Carebears like and want to build, because it's a non combative form for profit. Combat is the vehicle that drives their market. I rarely see an carebear flying his own(or her) ship into combat to make that profit. Whether that be a stockpile of ore or researching the blueprint used to create the ship.
Carebears need the market, not the combat, to make a profit. Combat is merely one way to facilitate that. Otherwise what you are saying is a jump freighter would never be built.
See what I did there? Both statements are true. "I say tomato, you say tomaCCP BAN ALL TOMATOES THEY ARE HARASSING ME I WANT TOMATO FREE HIGHSEC."-á -TheGunslinger42 Proud enforcer of the Code, see [url]http://www.minerbumping.com[/url]-á for details. |
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