Can someone summarize the OP into a 140 char tweet?

Can someone summarize the OP into a 140 char tweet?

The industrialist doesn't mine.

Mining is peasant work.

As an Industrialist I don't undock. Ever.

Someone who really knew what they were doing would have defensive rigs, a damage control, an invuln and a small shield booster running permanently and would have laughed at the suicide gankers after they failed.

Staying aligned to a celestial and using D-Scan is a much better defense if you insist on mining. Plus it is a skill that will serve you well once you grow out of mining.

An in-corp (or in-duel) and in-fleet buddy with multiple webs (this can be another exhumer, incidentally) makes staying aligned (I'd suggest to a bm, not a celestial) almost painless, and makes it substantially more effective.

In-corp alts that sit in adjacent systems, and sound the dock-up-now alarm when a bunch of -10 pilots hit local are far more effective.

But doing this requires people who are willing to remain at the keyboard and pay attention.

Also requires alts who aren't *GASP* mining.

So, for a group who, as a whole isn't willing to drop 1 MLU to protect a 200m ISK investment to have non-mining alts...

We shall continue depriving them of those lovely, lovely 200m ISK ship hulls until they learn.

Because as we all know, making tech 2 cargo rigs for the carebears to fit to those hulls requires materials that can be hard to source any other way.

Anyway (since we seem to be playing the funny anecdote game), as an industrialist, I recently bought a Freighter because I was tired of taking multiple trips from my station to my POS in the Itty V... so there's that.

I notice how you use 'he' for the carebear, and 'she' for the mighty industrialist.

This implies that the vast majority of miners are carebears, and the industrialist is one of the elite few, as there are almost no real females in Eve.

I like your subtly insulting logic. Kudos Sir!

A bunch of stuff that's wrong.

I like how you're obviously a real life female, because you're reading between the lines to find hidden meanings that don't exist and then screeching at the poster like they actually said that.

You know highsec is intended to be a glorious paradise. I know you know this because of what you said.

Carebear checking in!

I dont even really understand why this is a discussion... Everyone (should) knows that there are really no "set" terms on a player, weather its carebear, pirate, empire hugger, 0.0 dweller or merc. The more people you ask what the different term "means" the more different answers you will get.

As an example.
Quite recently my corp got accused of being "naughty pirates". Why? Because we did not approve of someone coming into the WH we occupy and doing the sites. In my own opinion thats not piracy, thats defending your terretory and resourses. But for the person who got blown up, we are pirates. And believe me this is not the first time i have heard this one

So why do i call my self a carebear? Because i dont enjoy the idea of destroying someone elses ship/pixels.
This does not mean that no carebears likes to PVP, and it does not mean that there is no truth to the...ideas people have about what makes someone a carebear. But i would like to think that people would accept that just because one person they met acted like this, it does not mean that everyone else that has the same "title" thinks or feels the same way.

I like how you're obviously a real life female, because you're reading between the lines to find hidden meanings that don't exist and then screeching at the poster like they actually said that.

^^That.^^

All I've got to say!

(Aside from due props to the OP of course. Well done, sir/ma'am, well done.)

This is the internet, where 90% of the time, male characters are played by male players, female characters are played by male players, and young characters are played by the FBI.

I fit the 90%.

Can someone summarize the OP into a 140 char tweet?

Finally, she looks at the third question.

...there seems to be an epidemic of it. She considers the potential to profit from this increased demand for Catalysts, Small Neutron Blaster I's, Magnetic Stabilizer I's, Small Hybrid Burst Aerators, Warp Scrambler I's, Warp Disruptor I's and looks into what is involved in producing those.

Two people - a carebear and an EVE industralist - are mining in Mackinaws in high security space. Suddenly a fleet of ten Catalysts appears, piloted by outlaws. Each Mackinaw is targetted by five of them, pointed before they can warp out, and reduced to scrap metal. CONCORD arrives on the scene and gives the Catalysts a red card, blowing all of them to smithereens.


The Carebear Approach:

The carebear returns from their AFK and he sees himself in the clone bay in the station in the system. He complains loudly in local chat about the unfair treatment, sits in his pod in the local station, file GM petitions accusing the Catalyst pilots of cheating and logs off and posts a forum rant about being harrassed. etc etc

In other words, they are starting to band together make good on their threat to stop producing the stuff you're ganking them with.

That would be the ultimate retribution in all of this. For the price of a fitted Catalyst to skyrocket out of control to the point where it's no longer viable to use it as a suicide ganking ship, and the miners win, having never fired a shot.

I like how you're obviously a real life female, because you're reading between the lines to find hidden meanings that don't exist and then screeching at the poster like they actually said that.

In other words, they are starting to band together make good on their threat to stop producing the stuff you're ganking them with.

That would be the ultimate retribution in all of this. For the price of a fitted Catalyst to skyrocket out of control to the point where it's no longer viable to use it as a suicide ganking ship, and the miners win, having never fired a shot.

Marketing Online

Carebear checking in!

I dont even really understand why this is a discussion... Everyone (should) knows that there are really no "set" terms on a player, weather its carebear, pirate, empire hugger, 0.0 dweller or merc. The more people you ask what the different term "means" the more different answers you will get.

As an example.
Quite recently my corp got accused of being "naughty pirates". Why? Because we did not approve of someone coming into the WH we occupy and doing the sites. In my own opinion thats not piracy, thats defending your terretory and resourses. But for the person who got blown up, we are pirates. And believe me this is not the first time i have heard this one

So why do i call my self a carebear? Because i dont enjoy the idea of destroying someone elses ship/pixels.
This does not mean that no carebears likes to PVP, and it does not mean that there is no truth to the...ideas people have about what makes someone a carebear. But i would like to think that people would accept that just because one person they met acted like this, it does not mean that everyone else that has the same "title" thinks or feels the same way.

Two people - a carebear and an EVE industralist - are mining in Mackinaws in high security space.

Two people - a carebear and an EVE industralist - are mining in Mackinaws in high security space. Suddenly a fleet of ten Catalysts appears, piloted by outlaws. Each Mackinaw is targetted by five of them, pointed before they can warp out, and reduced to scrap metal. CONCORD arrives on the scene and gives the Catalysts a red card, blowing all of them to smithereens.

The carebear returns from their AFK

He complains loudly in local chat about the unfair treatment, sits in his pod in the local station, file GM petitions accusing the Catalyst pilots of cheating and logs off and posts a forum rant about being harrassed.

Sometimes he also does one of the following:
- Begs in local
- Threatens to get his nullsec main character to wardec the Catalyst pilots
- Threatens real life consequences against the Catalyst pilots or makes derogatory comments about the players involved (not the characters but the players)
- Gets into another Mackinaw and starts mining in the same place again
- Complains 'That ship was everything I owned'.
.

lost a 250m Mack fit

In other words, they are starting to band together make good on their threat to stop producing the stuff you're ganking them with.

That would be the ultimate retribution in all of this. For the price of a fitted Catalyst to skyrocket out of control to the point where it's no longer viable to use it as a suicide ganking ship, and the miners win, having never fired a shot.

Some gankers have indy alts. (the majority of gankers are alts anyway) Many pvpers have indy alts. Some indy players have ganker alts. Most intelligent indy players choose to produce the most valuable item. Many miners don't produce. Some miners and indy players view other miners and indy players as their competition - and they are.

An industrialist doesn't like pvp

Your post is what is conceived by the common riffraff and you as stereotypical carebear behavior and yet in a few lines I proved you incorrect in your assumptions. Stop trying to fit everyone in a box that is to your liking.

The rest TL;DR.

An EVE industrialist is just somebody who engages in the industrial aspects of the game. They may or may not engage in other aspects of the game, including PvP. I know plenty of industrialists (unless supercapital builders are suddenly not "industrialists") who engage in PvP regularly.

To me a much shorter explanation would be this:

A carebear doesn't like pvp and also feels they should be completely immune to it if they so choose and would perfer to only engage in activites with no risk.

An industrialist doesn't like pvp but recognizes it is a part of EvE. They weigh the pros and cons and take risks they believe will ultimately benefit them in the long run.

you completely missed the point of the OP.

Actually I believe YOU completely missed the point of the OP. S/he proposed no discussion and is simply trolling for another miner/ganker/hisec/null flamefest thread now that the other ones have fallen from the front page using stereotypes.

Besides, I wouldn't be using a Mack anyway, as it doesn't do much better than the Retriever. Much cheaper and still tanked enough worth two Carebear Macks.

Someone who really knew what they were doing wouldn't need to be mining in the first place, but if they did they would have defensive rigs, a damage control, an invuln and a small shield booster running permanently and would have laughed at the suicide gankers after they failed.

When I was very young, I mined in a Procurer. I got my money back from mining in less than 1 1/2 hours.

I never got ganked, but would have laughed if someone had.

It's a damn good ship to mine in, cheap to replace, tanks like a monster, mines as much as a Retriever,

no, it doesn't.

Of course they are not Industrialists.

Don't you read the forums, they are just risk free slackers choosing to do nothing but build supers in their super comfy chairs.

I personally would define you as an industrialist. There's nothing wrong with the playstyle, we need the industrial arm of EVE to keep us in ships and pewpewing. You play EVE, defend your territory, accept shiploss, etc. You don't whine to CCP for changes, you adapt and overcome. It's an honorable way to play, and I wish you many space-riches.

Now, a carebear, in my book, plays EVE like a single player game, and cries when someone forces some multiplayer action on them.They want the devs to adapt the game around them, rather than vice versa.

Take notes, friends. Be an awesome industrialist like NightCrawler 85. Don't be an annoying carebear.

no, it doesn't.

To me a much shorter explanation would be this:

A carebear doesn't like pvp and also feels they should be completely immune to it if they so choose and would perfer to only engage in activites with no risk.

An industrialist doesn't like pvp but recognizes it is a part of EvE. They weigh the pros and cons and take risks they believe will ultimately benefit them in the long run.

The industrialist doesn't mine.

Mining is peasant work.

Damn... and here I was expecting another "A carebear, a nullbear and a low sec pirate walk into a bar one day... " joke thread... leaving EXTREMELY disappointed.

Two people - a carebear and an EVE industralist - are mining in Mackinaws in high security space. Suddenly a fleet of ten Catalysts appears, piloted by outlaws. Each Mackinaw is targetted by five of them, pointed before they can warp out, and reduced to scrap metal. CONCORD arrives on the scene and gives the Catalysts a red card, blowing all of them to smithereens.


The Carebear Approach:

The carebear returns from their AFK and he sees himself in the clone bay in the station in the system. He complains loudly in local chat about the unfair treatment, sits in his pod in the local station, file GM petitions accusing the Catalyst pilots of cheating and logs off and posts a forum rant about being harrassed.

Sometimes he also does one of the following:
- Begs in local
- Threatens to get his nullsec main character to wardec the Catalyst pilots
- Threatens real life consequences against the Catalyst pilots or makes derogatory comments about the players involved (not the characters but the players)
- Gets into another Mackinaw and starts mining in the same place again
- Complains 'That ship was everything I owned'.

Three months later, he hasn't learned anything, and the net result of the Catalyst attack is that he lost a 250m Mack fit and a 300m pod.


The EVE industrialist

Firstly, our EVE industrialist follows the first rule of EVE - never undock in a ship you cannot afford to lose - and so the lost Mackinaw, whilst perhaps a painful loss, won't be more than a quarter of her assets. If she couldn't afford the loss, she'd have flown a tech 1 ship instead.
She also follows the third rule of EVE - never be AFK when not docked or behind a POS shield, so her pod warps out before anyone can pop her (much cheaper) implants.

She asks herself three questions.
"What could I have done to avoid this trap?"
"OK, I lost my ship, what's the most I can quickly salvage from this bad situation?".
And finally "Are there long-term profit opportunities in this for me?"

She addresses the second first - she warps to a nearby station, reships into a Myrmidon (the tankiest ship she has handy), fits Salvager 2 modules, and loots and salvages her destroyed ship, the Catalysts, and then salvages and finally loots the carebear's ship, invoking a yellow card from Crimewatch (but who will attack a suspect-flagged Myrmidon in an asteroid belt, looks like an obvious trap there). She then returns to station with a third of her losses recovered.

The EVE industrialist then asks around for help from other players as to how she could have avoided the Catalyst trap as she hasn't got the PVP experience to answer this herself. She is told 'check D-scan' and 'tank your Mack better' by more experienced players in local. So she puts training Cruiser Construction 5 on hold to train how to fit a Damage Control II module and, not understanding how D-scan would be useful, looks up a D-scan tutorial on Youtube and decides 'in future, 4 or more Catalysts within 5AU means I stop mining and insta-warp out'. Of course this lowers her mining yield somewhat as she is spooked by Catalysts that had other targets, but to save a 200m+ ship she thinks losing a small amount of yield is worth it.

Finally, she looks at the third question. Judging by the other comments in local chat, he and the carebear were not the only people to lose Mackinaws and Hulks to Catalyst gangs in this system recently - there seems to be an epidemic of it. She considers the potential to profit from this increased demand for Mackinaws, Hulks, Catalysts, Small Neutron Blaster I's, Magnetic Stabilizer I's, Small Hybrid Burst Aerators, Warp Scrambler I's, Warp Disruptor I's and looks into what is involved in producing those. After some quick research, she decides that making mining barges requires too much capital and so she decides to invest 60m ISK and a fortnight of her POS science slots to researching ten Catalyst BPOs. WIthin weeks she is selling 150 Catalysts a day in the system, with a cool 200k markup on each one, while her own mining operations (which increasingly she is less reliant upon as a source of income with all the Catalyst production) take place four jumps away in a quieter system where local seldom has more than eight people in it.

When the Catalyst sales start dropping off as the anti-mining gangs move to other systems, she then cashes out, selling her Catalyst BPOs for a tidy profit to other industrialists desparate to make ISK out of the miner extermination campaign. She then puts all of this ISK together and invests in what she could not afford before - a 2500m ISK well researched Retriever BPO - and offers a courier contract at a high price (with a 3b collateral) to take this BPO to the new site of the miner extermination campaign.

Within three months of the Catalyst gang attack, she's turned a painful loss into a massive business and is on the way to becoming spacerich.

A carebear, a nullbear, and a lowsec pirate walk into a bar and walk up to the barman.

GÇ£Why do you let these people into the bar?!GÇ¥, asks the carebear. GÇ£I pay you money to be able to sit down and drink my tea.GÇ¥ He then sits down and mutters about other people having the audacity to frequent the same public establishment he does.

GÇ£Why do you you only serve tea?!GÇ¥ asks the nullbear. GÇ£When I pay money in a bar, I expect it to serve me something more than that.GÇ¥ He then takes his cup of tea and sits down to compose a letter to the proprietor explaining why bars should serve strong drinks.

Finally, the lowsec pirate saunters up to the barman. GÇ£Give me all your money!GÇ¥

Still waiting.......

Both the carebear and the industrialist ask, Why do you so so badly at PvP that you have to gank exhumers that can't shoot back, just to grow your epeen?

Both the carebear and the industrialist ask, Why do you so so badly at PvP that you have to gank exhumers that can't shoot back, just to grow your epeen?

Real PvPers fight other players that are ready and looking for a fight.

I guess you salt snails and pull wings off flies, just to show you have some power over your miserable existence.

I wouldn't say that someone ganking Exhumers (or anything for that matter) is "bad" at PvP.

Yes, what they did was underhanded. Yes, it pisses people off. But what it doesn't (inherently) show is that the person is "bad" at PvP (they might be ... but killing exhumers doesn't prove they are).

I'm honestly 100% "bad" at FiS PvP. BUT that hasn't stopped me from looking for fights in low ... or stepping up if/when dec'd...

People who lose ships by an underhanded blow like a gank need to have something to hang their hat on. That they are cowardly has always been the go to self motivation tool for people who have been set upon by a more powerful force in real life and fiction.

Some people who do PvP in combat see it as a play style rather then an event and get to tout and enjoy their assumed superiority.

you completely missed the point of the OP.

I beg to differ, a Procuror with a Strip Miner I and an MLU I mines exactly the same m3 per cycle as a Retriever with 2 Strip Miner I and an MLU I, at least with my mining alts skills. The difference is in the Ore hold, not the quantity mined per cycle, I can but don't use crystals or Strip Miner IIs, not worth it in highsec tbh for the amount that I mine.

A carebear, a nullbear, and a lowsec pirate walk into a bar and walk up to the barman.

GÇ£Why do you let these people into the bar?!GÇ¥, asks the carebear. GÇ£I pay you money to be able to sit down and drink my tea.GÇ¥ He then sits down and mutters about other people having the audacity to frequent the same public establishment he does.

GÇ£Why do you you only serve tea?!GÇ¥ asks the nullbear. GÇ£When I pay money in a bar, I expect it to serve me something more than that.GÇ¥ He then takes his cup of tea and sits down to compose a letter to the proprietor explaining why bars should serve strong drinks.

Finally, the lowsec pirate saunters up to the barman. GÇ£Give me all your money!GÇ¥

As I didn't read the entire post that doesn't surprise me. But I believe I got my point across that putting people in nice neat little boxes especially in this game is almost pointless.

Your first and most glaring mistake is that industrialists are miners. The two are VASTLY different professions in-game, and to base your post on this flawed concept makes the entire post unreadable. I have multiple INDUSTRIALIST alts on different accounts, and NONE of them mine. I stopped reading the post at this mistake.

Re-think and re-post; I'll read the new version.

An industrialist is naturally a carebear by profession.

Yeah, but I don't think the idea is to say people are always in one of these two groups. It's just sticking a couple of example attitudes next to each other for comparison.

Quite the opposite: industrialists are, by virtue of their profession, not carebears. They wouldn't survive long in their profession if they wereGǪ

Your first and most glaring mistake is that industrialists are miners. The two are VASTLY different professions in-game, and to base your post on this flawed concept makes the entire post unreadable. I have multiple INDUSTRIALIST alts on different accounts, and NONE of them mine. I stopped reading the post at this mistake.

Re-think and re-post; I'll read the new version.

Sure they would. You don't need to travel or fight in combat to be an industrialist.

GǪand combat is not the only form of destructive conflict. Being industrialists, they engage in all the other kinds (many of them far more damaging to the opponent that just a ship going poof).

If the industrialists were carebears, they would end up with nothing (or at least very little), which goes rather against the goal of being an industrialist to begin with.

Industrialists like and want to build,-ácrush their enemies and take all their stuff, but do it on the market because it's a non combative form for profit. Combat is the vehicle that drives their market. I rarely see an industrialist flying his own(or her) ship into combat to make that profit. Whether that be a stockpile of ore or researching the blueprint used to create the ship.

Industrialists need the market, not-áand the combat, to make a profit. Combat is merely one way to facilitate that. Otherwise what you are saying is-áThey realise that without combat, a jump freighter would never be built.

Differentiating between carebear and industrialist is nothing but the spelling of the word. I'll show you.

Carebears like and want to build, because it's a non combative form for profit. Combat is the vehicle that drives their market, but they don't understand this critical detail. I rarely see an carebear flying his own(or her) ship into combat to make that profit. Whether that be a stockpile of ore or researching the blueprint used to create the ship.

Carebears believe they only need the market, not the combat, to make a profit. Combat is [s]merely one way to facilitate that[s]-ásome odd thing, in their view, that they believe happens elsewhere and which should be decoupled from their game experience. Otherwise what you are saying is a jump freighter would never be built.

See what I did there?

Carbears falsely believe that they live in a bubble and that what they do has no impact on anyone else and that, therefore, no-one should be allowed to have an impact on them.

carebears, people who mistakenly think that they're playing a single player game.

To me a much shorter explanation would be this:

A carebear doesn't like pvp and also feels they should be completely immune to it if they so choose and would perfer to only engage in activites with no risk.

An industrialist doesn't like pvp but recognizes it is a part of EvE. They weigh the pros and cons and take risks they believe will ultimately benefit them in the long run.

I'm kind of surprised we got to four pages on this thread without the blatantly obvious difference between a carebear and an industrialist.

An industrialist has a mining permit, purchased from any Agent of the New Order for 10,000,000 ISK, good for one year, and a carebear doesn't.

An industrialist who is mining in a gank prone area would make the economic calculation that 10 million ISK is much less than 40 million or 200 million ISK, not to mention the bother, and would eagerly sign up with the New Order. A carebear, if shaken from his slumber, will make statements regarding his "honor" and "the principle" and remain unprotected.

I know many miners make the calculation that they will not be the ones ganked, that somehow the hand of justice will pass them by, even that losing the occasional barge is calculated into the profit. I am sure each of the thousands of non compliant miners who have paid with their ships or their pods thought similarly.

What cannot be denied is that for the miner who just lost his ship, buying the 10,000,000 ISK permit would have been a better decision than the one he made.

One sign of an educated mind is the ability to learn from the mistakes of others rather than having to experience things yourself. Don't be a carebear. Buy a permit.

315 4 CSM8

Highsec is worth fighting for.

Bing Bangboom
Agent of the New Order of Highsec
Belligerent Undesirable

Two people - a carebear and an EVE industralist - are mining in Mackinaws in high security space. Suddenly a fleet of ten Catalysts appears, piloted by outlaws. Each Mackinaw is targetted by five of them, pointed before they can warp out, and reduced to scrap metal. CONCORD arrives on the scene and gives the Catalysts a red card, blowing all of them to smithereens.


The Carebear Approach:

The carebear returns from their AFK and he sees himself in the clone bay in the station in the system. He complains loudly in local chat about the unfair treatment, sits in his pod in the local station, file GM petitions accusing the Catalyst pilots of cheating and logs off and posts a forum rant about being harrassed.

Sometimes he also does one of the following:
- Begs in local
- Threatens to get his nullsec main character to wardec the Catalyst pilots
- Threatens real life consequences against the Catalyst pilots or makes derogatory comments about the players involved (not the characters but the players)
- Gets into another Mackinaw and starts mining in the same place again
- Complains 'That ship was everything I owned'.

Three months later, he hasn't learned anything, and the net result of the Catalyst attack is that he lost a 250m Mack fit and a 300m pod.


The EVE industrialist

Firstly, our EVE industrialist follows the first rule of EVE - never undock in a ship you cannot afford to lose - and so the lost Mackinaw, whilst perhaps a painful loss, won't be more than a quarter of her assets. If she couldn't afford the loss, she'd have flown a tech 1 ship instead.
She also follows the third rule of EVE - never be AFK when not docked or behind a POS shield, so her pod warps out before anyone can pop her (much cheaper) implants.

She asks herself three questions.
"What could I have done to avoid this trap?"
"OK, I lost my ship, what's the most I can quickly salvage from this bad situation?".
And finally "Are there long-term profit opportunities in this for me?"

She addresses the second first - she warps to a nearby station, reships into a Myrmidon (the tankiest ship she has handy), fits Salvager 2 modules, and loots and salvages her destroyed ship, the Catalysts, and then salvages and finally loots the carebear's ship, invoking a yellow card from Crimewatch (but who will attack a suspect-flagged Myrmidon in an asteroid belt, looks like an obvious trap there). She then returns to station with a third of her losses recovered.

The EVE industrialist then asks around for help from other players as to how she could have avoided the Catalyst trap as she hasn't got the PVP experience to answer this herself. She is told 'check D-scan' and 'tank your Mack better' by more experienced players in local. So she puts training Cruiser Construction 5 on hold to train how to fit a Damage Control II module and, not understanding how D-scan would be useful, looks up a D-scan tutorial on Youtube and decides 'in future, 4 or more Catalysts within 5AU means I stop mining and insta-warp out'. Of course this lowers her mining yield somewhat as she is spooked by Catalysts that had other targets, but to save a 200m+ ship she thinks losing a small amount of yield is worth it.

Finally, she looks at the third question. Judging by the other comments in local chat, he and the carebear were not the only people to lose Mackinaws and Hulks to Catalyst gangs in this system recently - there seems to be an epidemic of it. She considers the potential to profit from this increased demand for Mackinaws, Hulks, Catalysts, Small Neutron Blaster I's, Magnetic Stabilizer I's, Small Hybrid Burst Aerators, Warp Scrambler I's, Warp Disruptor I's and looks into what is involved in producing those. After some quick research, she decides that making mining barges requires too much capital and so she decides to invest 60m ISK and a fortnight of her POS science slots to researching ten Catalyst BPOs. WIthin weeks she is selling 150 Catalysts a day in the system, with a cool 200k markup on each one, while her own mining operations (which increasingly she is less reliant upon as a source of income with all the Catalyst production) take place four jumps away in a quieter system where local seldom has more than eight people in it.

When the Catalyst sales start dropping off as the anti-mining gangs move to other systems, she then cashes out, selling her Catalyst BPOs for a tidy profit to other industrialists desparate to make ISK out of the miner extermination campaign. She then puts all of this ISK together and invests in what she could not afford before - a 2500m ISK well researched Retriever BPO - and offers a courier contract at a high price (with a 3b collateral) to take this BPO to the new site of the miner extermination campaign.

Within three months of the Catalyst gang attack, she's turned a painful loss into a massive business and is on the way to becoming spacerich.

Does Carebear mean something different in this MMO than others? I had always understood it simply to mean a player who likes helping out other players, and is therefore more social if anything.

But carebears can be good players and industrialists can be bad players.

Approach to the game doesn't equal skill in that approach.

Alternatively, you can start as one and become the other.

Not to mention factoring the term "nullbear" into it either.

...it's like trying to split the terms "newb" and "rookie" and doesn't really warrant a full on description of the term imo.

Too much over analyzing.

The industrialist simply boycotts producing Catalysts, small blasters and antimatter hybrid ammo. Then they persuade others to do the same. Local costs for all of the above skyrockets. Lazy gankers move to greener pastures.

The industrialist simply boycotts producing Catalysts, small blasters and antimatter hybrid ammo. Then they persuade others to do the same. Local costs for all of the above skyrockets. Lazy gankers move to greener pastures.

How many alts does James have? If you win CSM would you promise not to post ever again on the forums?

Arrogant -10.0 going into suicide biomass and having to start from scratch all over while Jame's real main is sucking down martinis in the Jita VIP lounge until the sun burns out.

Application rejected. Application rejected. Application rejected. Sorry, Goonswarm doesn't want you - you're too big of an a-hole for our standards. Back to the carebare NPC corp for you forever. Arrogant -10.0 going into suicide biomass and having to start from scratch all over while Jame's real main is sucking down martinis in the Jita VIP lounge until the sun burns out.

what will become known as the greatest ponzi scheme in EvE history.

AND AGAIN STOP DEMANDIG THAT PEOPLE PLAY THIS GAME HOW YOU WANT TO PLAY THIS GAME
YOUR SHORTSIGHTED VERSION OF HOW THIS GAME WORKS IS FALSE AND WILL NEVER WORK
GET OVER IT

OMG James 315 is an absolute KING of emergent game play. look at all the butthurting people he's ticked off, and this thread didn't even start off as anything to do with minig or the new order etc.

When you can make people cry at the mere MENTION of your name or group (ie "New Order"), you've simply won EVE. Goons needed a whole allaince to tick people off, and james did it with some alts and a few friends. I find that amazing.

1-4 pilots is usually enough to tick off most bears.

It's surprising how _FAST_ a system clears out when 2 or 3 pilots go flashy red...

By the definitions presented in this thread the "industrialist" would hang around and wait to get ganked? yeah right, but if they do the sensible thing because a bunch of red carebears have waltzed into the system then suddenly they become the carebear?

Docking when gankers come into the system is simply a reduction of isk-losses, strangely enough the exact same reason gankers use cheap ships to gank in, the reduction of cost.

By the definitions presented in this thread the "industrialist" would hang around and wait to get ganked?

No. By the definitions presented in this thread, the GÇ£industrialistsGÇ¥ would have a back-up plan that they'd initiate, and would not be ticked off by it.

There's absolutely no need to dock up just because there are gankers in the system.

Tanking for a possible gank is just one way of dealing with the threat but lowers yield.

Fitting for yield increases the risk of losing a ship to gankers but this is mitigated somewhat by warping whenever red names appear in local.

Those are just two ways to deal with the threat of ganking, yet one gets called an "industrialist" and the other "carebear".

Yet I see more threads on these forums from gankers than I do miners whining about having the game changed to suit them.

Tanking for a possible gank is just one way of dealing with the threat but lowers yield.

Fitting for yield increases the risk of losing a ship to gankers but this is mitigated somewhat by warping whenever red names appear in local.

Those are just two ways to deal with the threat of ganking, yet one gets called an "industrialist" and the other "carebear".

No. By the definitions presented in this thread, the GÇ£industrialistsGÇ¥ would have a back-up plan that they'd initiate, and would not be ticked off by it.

There's absolutely no need to dock up just because there are gankers in the system.

The easiest solution to all issues is just mine in nullsec.


Iv always mined in nullsec, have never, ever, lost a single barge! And I have all the Veldspar I want to sell at high prices to super cap builders!

Don't let Malcanis and his null bear entourage see this post. There's still trying to convince us that null industry needs a buff.

Why the fascination with ganking indust... careb... barges and exhumers?


Does it somehow prove you are an awesome PvPer when you can suicide gank a ship that can't shoot back?

I just don't understand why SO many people seem to think that EVE will be horrible if they can't fly around blowing up indt... careb... mining barges and exhumers all day.

Are you really that fail at PvPing against ships that can shoot back?

Explain it to me why EVE will die if you can't get your jollies blowing up ships of people that just want to be left alone.

Do you also salt snails and pull the wings off flies for jollies?

Benny Ohu: Does it somehow prove you are an awesome PvPer when you can suicide gank a ship that can't shoot back?

Cleverbot: Your only 17 that is why. Go back to school infant.

Why the fascination with ganking indust... careb... barges and exhumers?


Does it somehow prove you are an awesome PvPer when you can suicide gank a ship that can't shoot back?

I just don't understand why SO many people seem to think that EVE will be horrible if they can't fly around blowing up indt... careb... mining barges and exhumers all day.

Are you really that fail at PvPing against ships that can shoot back?

Explain it to me why EVE will die if you can't get your jollies blowing up ships of people that just want to be left alone.

Do you also salt snails and pull the wings off flies for jollies?

Don't let Malcanis and his null bear entourage see this post. There's still trying to convince us that null industry needs a buff.

She also follows the third rule of EVE - never be AFK when not docked or behind a POS shield, so her pod warps out before anyone can pop her (much cheaper) implants.

Hey Op, here's that carebar you were talking about.

.

Both the carebear and the industrialist ask, Why do you so so badly at PvP that you have to gank exhumers that can't shoot back, just to grow your epeen?

Real PvPers fight other players that are ready and looking for a fight.

Yep. Its like how Somali pirates board defenseless oil tankers, instead of taking on a US destroyer like real men.

How is the OP of this thread not a rant? Why this strawmanning, pile of nothing still even open after 6 pages?


Why this fascination with killing mining ships. Why is EVE going to die if you can't spend your day blowing up mining ships?

You haven't been on the forums much, then. Just have a quick search for the bajillion GÇ£buff hulk/nerf gankingGÇ£ threads we've had.

Don't let Malcanis and his null bear entourage see this post. There's still trying to convince us that null industry needs a buff.

You mine, you sell your minerals to Mfg.
Mfg builds ship, and sells it on the market.
Combatant buys ship and uses it to replace losses incurred in war/lowsec/whatever.

Miner gets blown up, combatant doesn't get his ship.
Simple breaking of the logistics chain.

when high sec mining is more isk/hour than null sec mining, i'd say it does.

Null maybe. High sec? You don't have NEAR enough sec status to blow on suicide ganks to make a dent in the supply chain.

That is an issue of limited belts and the annoyance rocks in the clusters, and needs to be addressed by fixing null.. not by making it easier to gank high sec carebear miners.

no, not the entire chain ... but on the other hand, a lot of the "big time" mfg toons buy stuff outside of standard market channels... so, killing a few macks/hulks might be just enough to kill the chain ... at least for a day or two.

Nice comeback, but doesn't come close to answering the question.

Why the fascination with ganking mining ships?

Freighters.. sure. Could be mass value of stuff in there. But a mining ship? What are you going to get?

Why will EVE die, if it is not easy to gank a mining ship?

So, let me see if I understand...

EVE will die if it isn't easy and profitable to gank mining ships in high sec, because to survive as a game, EVE must make it possible to maybe, slightly, for a short time, possibly disrupt a manufacturing chain of someone that may or may not be supplying your enemy... possibly.

Gotcha

Don't agee... but okay.

Agreed.

If the situation in null space is such that too few find it attractive, than it makes logical sense to change the situation in null sec space so as to make it more attractive.

Making the situation in high sec space less attractive does nothing to improve the situation in null sec space, but only serves to add to the number of players not happy and to the amount of space not found to be fun by the players.

EO has done about as much as it can to make low and null sec space look horrible to new players. And the veterans who are used to it and like it are apparently thinning in their ranks.

Perhaps rather than continue to promote the image of how horrible, risky and little fun low and null sec space are, some effort might be made to help new players get over the instinctive avoidance of it.

GASP Maybe make it so they have a fair chance and are not just fuel to feed the egos of veterans?

Agreed.

If the situation in null space is such that too few find it attractive, than it makes logical sense to change the situation in null sec space so as to make it more attractive.

Making the situation in high sec space less attractive does nothing to improve the situation in null sec space, but only serves to add to the number of players not happy and to the amount of space not found to be fun by the players.

EO has done about as much as it can to make low and null sec space look horrible to new players. And the veterans who are used to it and like it are apparently thinning in their ranks.

Perhaps rather than continue to promote the image of how horrible, risky and little fun low and null sec space are, some effort might be made to help new players get over the instinctive avoidance of it.

GASP Maybe make it so they have a fair chance and are not just fuel to feed the egos of veterans?

Who, exactly said EVE would die? I don't think it would,

I think it should never ever become the kind of game you want, because what you want is foolish. Again, EVE isn't the problem, people playing it who don't like what it is (and constantly asking ccp to change it to something that make them comfortable), THAT is the problem.

Why the fascination with ganking indust... careb... barges and exhumers?


Does it somehow prove you are an awesome PvPer when you can suicide gank a ship that can't shoot back?

I just don't understand why SO many people seem to think that EVE will be horrible if they can't fly around blowing up indt... careb... mining barges and exhumers all day.

Are you really that fail at PvPing against ships that can shoot back?

Explain it to me why EVE will die if you can't get your jollies blowing up ships of people that just want to be left alone.

*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal

- Ruining people's day is fun.
- The biggest proponent of it, the goons, ALSO own most of the tech moons, the products of which are needed for T2 production. Exhumers are T2 ships; T2 modules as well.
- You can sell an unmolested miner a ship once. A ganked miner buys another, and the gankers buy their gank ships off you too.
- You can't expect someone sitting there mostly afk to be able to survive in a hostile galaxy.

Also, highsec mining is more profitable than nullsec mining because of high prices on low-end minerals, and logistics. The high-ends from null have to be jumped all the way back to jita as compressed ore, and sold there. The chain of jump gates, jump freighters, and/or titan jump bridges eats into your margins. So does the alt required to sell it yourself. Someone else shows up in the system you're mining in? Stop mining. Someone a system or two over? Stop mining. Lose your mining ship? Have another shipped in from highsec at great expense. You need defense, you have sov bills to pay, etc, etc.

In highsec, you mine, you refine, you sell. Lose a ship? Trade hub's right there. Your corp is you and your alts. You have an industrial for moving minerals around. And there's always a buy order handy.

"Ruining people's day is fun."

Some people have serious mental health issues.

I do not know who/what EO is.


Also, I think players come into EVE with two different play styles already set. They are either starting up an EVE account because they heard it offers great PvP... or,they are starting an EVE account because they heard about the complex resource harvesting, manufacturing, player driven market, research, etc. etc.

If you are someone that wants to engage in PvP against other players that want to PvP, well, there is ample opportunity for that in low, null, RvB, FacWar, etc. I'm sure there are lots of high sec PvP corps that will gladly fight when another high sec PvP corp war decs them.

In high sec, there is amply opportunities to gather resources, manufacture, play the market, etc.

So, these two main groups seem okay.


The issue, as I see it, are the players that suck so badly at PvPing against other players that are actually interested in PvP, that they decide the carebear industrialists should be their easy targets. They rant and rave and get all upset about how horrid a game it is because they can't fly around all day blowing up easy targets in mining ships. HINT: If you could do that, then you wouldn't be able to do that, because there would be no mining ships.


This whole notion that "if you could just get new players to experience the joy".... If they are interested in PvP, there is no shortage of ways for them to get exposed to PvP. If they have no interest in PvP and just want to harvest, manufacture, market, then there is no amount of "get them some exposure" that is going to suddenly turn them into a PvPer. When those industrialists go to null, it doesn't take long before an AFK cloaky shows up and locks them in station. Then they move back to high sec.

Everyone would be SO much happier with the game, if the PvPers would just be content to PvP against other PvPers and stopped thinking of the carebears as potential easy target if only CCP would.....

Whatever that suggestion is, if it makes it easier to kill carebears, then what you are really saying is... CCP should accept a massive revenue hit as carebears stop playing after they are driven from the game by changing.....

It is a rant that it must be easy and profitable to gank mining ships in high sec, and the people getting blown up should just HTFU and STFU about it.

You've obviously never worked in a call centre, ruining someone's day is the job description.

Mental health isn't the issue here, somebody who like explosions is playing with different rules and goals than you are, they're still within the parameters of the game, wanting immunity from other players interfering with you is not.

This thread is bad. All of you posting in it should feel bad.

Do you feel bad?

"- Ruining people's day is fun."

Some people have serious mental health issues.

1. Care Bear260 up, 42 down
1. Lightly derogatory term for an MMO player who avoids PVP combat, heavily preferring cooperative or solo PVE combat, chatting, or developing tradeskills/running quests. Depending on the game and the individual, this PVP avoidance can show up in several ways: by playing on strict non-PVP servers; by avoiding PVP areas or declining duels; or, by avoiding or condemning PVP players. Philosophically, they often cite unbalanced combat systems, overpowered guilds, ebayed characters, and ganking as reasons to prefer less aggressive play. The mindset can be self-sustaining in several ways: high-level "care bears" may have avatars that are tailored for PVE, not PVP; they may not network with skilled PVP players; or, they may morally refuse to learn aggressive PVP tactics. As an insult, the term applies less to players who merely prefer PVE to PVP and more to individuals who question the basic legitimacy of PVP or who greatly overreact to their avatars' deaths. Bear in mind that it is strictly incorrect to refer to the victims of heavy exploiters as Care Bears.

This seems to be a very common..misonception of pirates in general sadly. But i can understand it!
You would think that when someone gets their enjoyment from blowing up haulers and miners, war deccing industrial corps or young corps that cant defend them selfes..well that person must have some sick desires they cant exspress in real life right?

Well, this is far from the truth! Over my years in EVE i have always taken a stance as an anti pirate, never tolerated scamming, theft, spionage or similar (yea i know, silly isent it?) because i tought that someone who was a decent human beeing could never sink to that level.
I have been prooven wrong so many times! I can say without a shred of doubt that among the kindest people i have met in this game pirates and general "naughty" people covers a good part of that list. Many people are not willing to..differentiate a person ingame persona and their real life persona. Because of this its easy to take for granted that someone who is "cruel" in EVE has to be cruel in real life.

The simple truth is this.. Someone does not take EVE as seriusly as others, and dont understand why someone should be so upset that they send hate mail and similar just because they lost a ship. Honestly, sometimes i think "pirates" do it BECAUSE of the hate mail they recive (which i will admit can be very amusing) and it has nothing to do with padding their KB, or hoping that the person will be so angry and upset that it damages them in real life in any way or form.

This seems to be a very common..misonception of pirates in general sadly. But i can understand it!
You would think that when someone gets their enjoyment from blowing up haulers and miners, war deccing industrial corps or young corps that cant defend them selfes..well that person must have some sick desires they cant exspress in real life right?

Well, this is far from the truth! Over my years in EVE i have always taken a stance as an anti pirate, never tolerated scamming, theft, spionage or similar (yea i know, silly isent it?) because i tought that someone who was a decent human beeing could never sink to that level.
I have been prooven wrong so many times! I can say without a shred of doubt that among the kindest people i have met in this game pirates and general "naughty" people covers a good part of that list. Many people are not willing to..differentiate a person ingame persona and their real life persona. Because of this its easy to take for granted that someone who is "cruel" in EVE has to be cruel in real life.

The simple truth is this.. Someone does not take EVE as seriusly as others, and dont understand why someone should be so upset that they send hate mail and similar just because they lost a ship. Honestly, sometimes i think "pirates" do it BECAUSE of the hate mail they recive (which i will admit can be very amusing) and it has nothing to do with padding their KB, or hoping that the person will be so angry and upset that it damages them in real life in any way or form.

This thread is bad. All of you posting in it should feel bad.

Scamming, Blowing up Ships, all the bad stuff that's within the rules of the game has all the bearing on the moral/mental health status of the person doing it as taking a pawn in Chess does.

I've known right pricks who are carebears, I've known right pricks who are pirates/griefers.
I've known great people who are carebears, I've known great people who are pirates/griefers.

What you do in a game has no relation with whether or not you are a good person.

The difference according to my definition is as follows.

Carebears:

Seek a solution from CCP instead of solving it themselves, as is the way of the sandbox.

Don't want to work together and try to pretend MMOs are single player games.

Hate risk, but still expect a reward.

Never want the actions of other people to have any effect on them. Again, playing it like it's single player.

Pretend to be bots and play AFK 90% of the time. Die to easily preventable situations and then cry about it.

Industrialists:

Seek player-based solutions to problems.

Have well organized corps.

Take risks and can handle when those risks don't work out. Earn their rewards.

Enjoy the excitement and unpredictability of other people being able to interact with them, even though it's sometimes not in a nice way.

Actually play the game and pay attention. Saw the ganker coming and lived. Didn't have anything to complain about.

As for me...

uh a carebear is just someone who almost always avoids PvP for whatever reason. it says nothing about their attitude to loss.

i'm feeling reasonably good about posting this snappy definition.