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Detshni
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Posted - 2005.08.20 10:21:00 -
[1]
We should implement an extra attribute to all skills when lvl 5 has been achieved. This to give each player that extra reward for spending the large amount of time it takes to train lvl 5.
CCP shouldn't be greedy here.
Percentage should be at least 15%
For example: Strip mining lvl 5 reached:
"Strip miners granted 20% extra yeld."
or: Gallente Battleship lvl 5 reached:
"One extra high slot, 300+ to cpu, 60+powercore granted"
The writing in the brackets don't appear on the skills till lvl 5 and this writing is in blue.
This will dramatically change the game, and make each player feel more welcome with training all skills to lvl 5.
Please agree or disagree below.
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Gibson Grey
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Posted - 2005.08.20 11:08:00 -
[2]
Hmm...
Not sure how i feel about this. My gut reaction though is that the standard bonus per lvl (small though it may be) is reward enough. Eve seems to be more a game of patience and reinforcing the idea that every last bit counts, it's about finding a way to get that little extra bit out of your ship, gaining even the smallest advantage over your opponent.
To take the mining example, spending days to go from lvl 4 to 5 in any of the mining skills is going to come out to lots of more ore mined in the long run. And really you'll find that in most of the other skills.
While I wouldn't personally balk at the idea of giving my character huge bonuses for reaching lvl 5's (obviously) maybe the regular bonus for going another lvl is reason enough to get to lvl 5's.
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Lagar
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Posted - 2005.08.20 11:08:00 -
[3]
nice idea but the real problem TBH is the fact that compared to peeps who dont have it maxed they are screwed unless they have the same.. altho the idea realy should be nice.. i think yer wanting it to be bosted to much... but using a lesser version of what you sugest i'd actualy like big time.. but skip the lvl 5= extra slot.. please 
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Lagar
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Posted - 2005.08.20 11:16:00 -
[4]
in my opinion the bonuses at lvl 5 dont have to be 15%..
personaly if a skill has a 5% damage per level.. at lvl 5 the bonus could be something in the line of adding another 2.5-5% nothing utterly mental.. just think of all the PVP'ers who have maxed their gunnery skills.. lol
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Joshua Foiritain
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Posted - 2005.08.20 11:48:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Joshua Foiritain on 20/08/2005 11:49:59
I admit it would be nice, however in eves current system someone with lvl 4 can reach almoast the same performance as someone with level 5.
The person with level 5 spends a lot of time for a small advantage, which is great as it allows new players to compete while still giving older players a head start.
If Level 5 would suddenly offered major bonuses it would become quite a kick in the balls to newer players, as they could no longer compete at all with those who have level 5 skills.
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[Coreli Corporation Mainframe] |
Daxes
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Posted - 2005.08.20 14:41:00 -
[6]
new players are already screwed due to lvl5 requirements for T2 items no need to make it even worse.
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Kotori
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Posted - 2005.08.20 15:34:00 -
[7]
 Originally by: Daxes
new players are already screwed due to lvl5 requirements for T2 items no need to make it even worse.[/quote
i do not agree with this in the slightest. All of us were new once, and had to work up to what we are today. New players are not expected and should not expect to be as powerful as a veteran player. This game takes dedication. Added to the fact that it takes very little time to get a Tech 2 small gun or simialar, its really not too bad for the new players
In regards to the level 5 bonus. I feel that there are many pros and cons to the idea. The Con that i see could cause most harm is that it will be a real kick in teh arse for veteran players who have been playing for a long time and havent had the benefit of the bonus, but on the contrary, there does need to be more of a bonus for maxing out skills, other than simply being able to use tech 2 stuff and so a little more than a normal person with level 4s would. But it definitely should nto be as extreme as adding an extra 15% or so. Maybe adding an extra 5% would work... i.e. by training the skill to level 5, it is effectively giving the same bonus as level 6 would. So if the skill gives 10% per level, then level 5 should give 20% to make a total of 60%
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Kotori
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Posted - 2005.08.20 15:34:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Kotori on 20/08/2005 15:34:17
Originally by: Daxes
new players are already screwed due to lvl5 requirements for T2 items no need to make it even worse.
i do not agree with this in the slightest. All of us were new once, and had to work up to what we are today. New players are not expected and should not expect to be as powerful as a veteran player. This game takes dedication. Added to the fact that it takes very little time to get a Tech 2 small gun or simialar, its really not too bad for the new players
In regards to the level 5 bonus. I feel that there are many pros and cons to the idea. The Con that i see could cause most harm is that it will be a real kick in teh arse for veteran players who have been playing for a long time and havent had the benefit of the bonus, but on the contrary, there does need to be more of a bonus for maxing out skills, other than simply being able to use tech 2 stuff and so a little more than a normal person with level 4s would. But it definitely should nto be as extreme as adding an extra 15% or so. Maybe adding an extra 5% would work... i.e. by training the skill to level 5, it is effectively giving the same bonus as level 6 would. So if the skill gives 10% per level, then level 5 should give 20% to make a total of 60%
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Tetron Firestorm
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Posted - 2005.08.20 21:18:00 -
[9]
I think that skills should stay the way they are. For one thing its more realistic. Each skill has a set bonus, the higher you go in something the longer it takes to gain the same bonus. Think like working out in a gym. The first 5% increase to your strenth is pretty fast, but after that it gets slower and slower to get the same result. Also this game is very focused on that little extra bit. What i mean by this is, yeah you can take your skill to 4 and have pretty much the same as someone at 5 but that person at 5 has that little extra bit that might save them or doom you, if it was a huge bonus, then it would mess up that part of the game, and also it would be really mean to new players like was mentioned earlier who havnt had the time to develop all these skills. I by the way am not a new player, im at 36M sp, and i like how they work now.
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Xandria Bogard
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Posted - 2005.08.21 03:38:00 -
[10]
Lv 5 bonus = agreed
most of all my skills are : Lv 4 except the guns and mining stuff...42 days to train a skill to Lv 5 why for a 5% bonus..., 15% - 20% ok, but not a 5%
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Detshni
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Posted - 2005.08.22 12:09:00 -
[11]
Ok, so maybe I took it a little too far when saying 15%. Any bonus to lvl 5 would be welcome! Because it would give each skill that more depth to "specialize" in.
Of course there is a few cons to the idea, but the cons are so small compared to what we get in return.
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Zaldiri
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Posted - 2005.08.22 12:23:00 -
[12]
No. Eve has diminishing returns on skill training for a reason.
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Admiral of King Frieza's Super Saiyan fleet.
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Detshni
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Posted - 2005.08.22 12:34:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Zaldiri
No. Eve has diminishing returns on skill training for a reason.
oh yeah? and what reason is that?
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Clowdancer
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Posted - 2005.08.22 15:57:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Daxes
new players are already screwed due to lvl5 requirements for T2 items no need to make it even worse.
new players need to play the game and become old players.
it is natural that rift exists between new and old, it should be there, you are new - so learn, dont excpect to do anithing withing 1 year, its your learning time, life begins when you have passed the 1 year game time barrier.
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Gretchen Dawntreader
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Posted - 2005.08.22 17:12:00 -
[15]
I think this would take the gap from 4 to 5 from being a big difference to being a staggering difference. As it is, it is possible to skill things to 4 and still get by passably, if not excellent, at least good. If some people were running around with huge bonuses due to skilling to 5, then it would basically be mandatory to stay at a reasonable level of competency.
I think it's more likely they will extend the skill trees in more advanced/specialized directions rather than introduce potentially unbalancing mega-bonuses to existing skills. IMO.
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Discorporation
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Posted - 2005.08.22 17:26:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Detshni
Originally by: Zaldiri
No. Eve has diminishing returns on skill training for a reason.
oh yeah? and what reason is that?
I have 52 skills at level 5. Compared with someone with exactly the same skillset, only those skills at lvl 4, I'm -marginally- better.
If I'd get superpowers for every lvl 5 skill, the balance between the two chars is thrown out of the window.
[23]
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Noriath
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Posted - 2005.08.22 17:32:00 -
[17]
I think level 5 skills are fine as they are, since they are requirements for other skills
Look at drones & drone interfacing for example. You get drones to 5 and interfacing opens up, which allows you to train 3 more levels in a day - so the payout for getting level 5 drones was more like +4 drones controlled then just one...
I think there should be more stuff like that, level 5s that directly lead to higher skills that offer similar bonueses...
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Detshni
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Posted - 2005.08.22 18:23:00 -
[18]
I just think that adding an extra bonus to training skills to lvl 5, would also make those who see no point in "wasting time" in training lvl 5, look twice.
I am not saying that adding this bonus will have it's ups and downs, I am just saying that the ups are far better than the downs. Also, it will help the game in the long run, and make it more interesting for new players to train skills they like, to lvl 5. 
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TuRtLe HeAd
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Posted - 2005.08.22 18:36:00 -
[19]
i dont think its needed at all.
There certainly is skills that you dont need at level 5, But when they are at level 5 You notice the slight difference nonetheless.
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Russo
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Posted - 2005.08.22 20:35:00 -
[20]
Really bad idea. REALLY BAD.
I dont feel like explaining why...anyone?
Russo - CEO Amarria Auxilia
XL pod for an XL personality
'Russo, what exactly do you feed your ego to keep it that big?.'
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Skull Bunny
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Posted - 2005.08.22 20:44:00 -
[21]
Im sorry, but i have to disagree.
Forever, the advantage of flying a ship at level 5 is that you get the advantage of flying a ship at 5% better than most other pilots. If a GankGeddon pilot has LVL 5 in: Amarr BS, all reletive Gunny skills (including Large Pulse Spec.) and heavy Drones 5, then he will be 20%+ more effective than a pilot able to fly the same at lvl 4, and another ship/weapon type.
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Skull Bunny
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Posted - 2005.08.22 20:54:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Skull Bunny on 22/08/2005 20:54:30
Double Posts 4 teh Luze!
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Detshni
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Posted - 2005.08.23 07:29:00 -
[23]
But giving that extra boost at lvl 5 will make people think more before they train skills to lvl 5. It will make people focus more on specific trees rather than all skills in all branches. It will make a corp more role oriented.
One guy has specialized in mining, another in fighting.
EvE is multiplayer based, not based on one character training everything to lvl 4 and going gung ho..
With this new system, people will want to specialize in their favorite thing, getting that extra bonus at lvl 5 on their favored area.
Of course we have to have this system, it's a must. It is.
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Ruato
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Posted - 2005.08.23 08:51:00 -
[24]
No thanks.
Simple reason being that it would greatly increase the time for new players to get competitive skills.
Its bad enough now, no need to make it harder.
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Detshni
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Posted - 2005.08.23 10:02:00 -
[25]
so maybe new players should stay away from 04 and under then, till they are ready. 
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Daxes
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Posted - 2005.08.23 12:43:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Kotori
Edited by: Kotori on 20/08/2005 15:34:17
Originally by: Daxes
new players are already screwed due to lvl5 requirements for T2 items no need to make it even worse.
i do not agree with this in the slightest. All of us were new once, and had to work up to what we are today. New players are not expected and should not expect to be as powerful as a veteran player. This game takes dedication. Added to the fact that it takes very little time to get a Tech 2 small gun or simialar, its really not too bad for the new players
In regards to the level 5 bonus. I feel that there are many pros and cons to the idea. The Con that i see could cause most harm is that it will be a real kick in teh arse for veteran players who have been playing for a long time and havent had the benefit of the bonus, but on the contrary, there does need to be more of a bonus for maxing out skills, other than simply being able to use tech 2 stuff and so a little more than a normal person with level 4s would. But it definitely should nto be as extreme as adding an extra 15% or so. Maybe adding an extra 5% would work... i.e. by training the skill to level 5, it is effectively giving the same bonus as level 6 would. So if the skill gives 10% per level, then level 5 should give 20% to make a total of 60%
u really dont get it or?
When T2 items came out a lot of ppl had already those requirements or were very close to it, most of us never had to start the game with such a big disadvantage compared to the older players.
A new player now is not only behind in skills but now also WAY behind in the stuff he can use.
There is really no need for those skill requirements for T2 items besides keeping ppl longer busy with learning skills and maybe making em to pay more money to CCP.
The use of T2 items should have never been linked with addtional lvl5 skill requirements
T2 lvl4 requirements widen the gap and i ask me hhy someone new should start playing Eve in 1-2 years when the gap (maybe with new Tē item requirements) becomes so big that u would be hopelessly behind.
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Noriath
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Posted - 2005.08.23 16:18:00 -
[27]
New people know what the requirements are. Older people didn't know what they had to train for to get tech 2 ships, a new player can just look it up and start training in the right direction.
A new player can use Advanced learning skills. Those were introduced less then a year ago, so older Players couldn't use them to cut their training times significantly.
Overall new players have to spend a lot less time now to get good skills then people had to back in the day. There is just no reason to say that you're disadvantaged, people who played the game for a long time had to spend a lot more time to get decent skills. (Not even to mention that there was a time in Eve where the amount of money you could earn was directly related to personal initiative and ruthless profiteering and not the amount of time in your day you could devote to grinding missions)
New players are not at a disadvantage. They have to spend less time then old people to get the same neat toys, and acting like its unfair that someone who played the game for years has more skills then someone who just joined is just nuts.
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Zzazzt
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Posted - 2005.08.23 16:47:00 -
[28]
Whilst I don't agree that any change to the skill system "is a must", I have always felt that the time needed to lvl5 a skill is a lil harsh (irrespective of the reasoning behind it). I mean - 40 days for BS5 & all you get is the same as you spent 6 days on for lvl4 + a dread prereq? The diminishing returns thing is perfectly valid, ofc, and completely acceptable in the low ranks. However, once you're up to rank 5 & beyond, training times are a too steep, and you end up getting players offline playing WoW or something whilst they wait for it to train. Many just don't bother, and leave the big lvl5s until there's nothing left to train, or it becomes a prereq for something they want (which is what I did with my 195 skills). I think lvl5ing a skill should provide something more that just another rung on that skills' ladder, because you've reached the top of that ladder - even the char sheet says "training complete".
The idea I always favoured was a time bonus (a la the learning skill) for skills that use the l5 skill in question as a primary prereq.
Example: Having gunnery 5 would act like (another) learning 5 for all the gunnery skills.
Nice things about this:
- instantly benefits everybody equally, n00b & vet alike
- cut down the time on these new vast rank stupid skills
- allow new players to become competitive more quickly (but not too quickly)
- gives n00bs a hand, but preserves the vets' superiority
- promotes specialisation by encouraging time investment in lvl5ing key skills
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http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=202351 |
Noriath
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Posted - 2005.08.23 17:00:00 -
[29]
The fact that Gunnery 5 is a prerequisite for large turrets makes it not worthwhile getting?
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Kiithnaras
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Posted - 2005.08.23 17:28:00 -
[30]
Okay, this idea, while interesting, holds little water. I have to agree with Josh and the others: the marginalized bonus from lvl 5 skills as opposed to lvl 4 is really there for new players to be able to compete with old veterans. you suddenly give the veterans superpowers, and either the new players quit, giving the older players no easy targets, or the new players hide out and just skill for several months.
While on _SOME_ NON-COMBAT and NON-SHIP skills, this wouldn't be such a bad idea IN SMALL AMOUNTS, like an extra 5% shield capacity for skilling shield management to lvl 5, or getting an extra 5% mining yeild bonus on both mining and astrogeology lvl 5. Having several research-necessary science skills at lvl 5 would unlock reverse engineering and item duplication, though among those lvl 5 skills necessary would have to inclue the research field type (like minmatar starship engineering to reverse engineer min starships)
Rebalance and General Idea thread. Feel free to respond or post your own ideas. |
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