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Ruffio Sepico
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Posted - 2005.08.23 14:02:00 -
[31]
 Originally by: Blood good
Many of my friends dont want to play this game because if you have played this game for 1 year and then someone else starts a new character he will never catch up to the veteran . 1 year SKILL training in this game is a alot.
An idea that i got is, why not make new characters able to train more then one skill at a time, make it 3 or 4 skills UNTIL they come to x number skillpoints, AND/OR they have reached lvl 4 on all skills OR x number skills, after that its normal training again. What do you guys think? whats does CCP think?
Please post your constructive ideas and suggestions.
Thanks.
Bloodgood
In an interview with CCP (which you an read at url under)
http://www.gamecloud.com/article.php?article_id=1088
Its being said that they got 7 year worth of material for expansions still for EVE. EVE isn't over tomorrow, so get with the program and work your way as everyone else did.
Look at what you CAN do, not what you cant do. EVE isn't the usual "grind to max level" type of game, so if your friends doesn't want to start play because they can't be "uber" right away, then maybe EVE would be better without those sort of players 
Home: http://www.hidden-agenda.co.uk
HiD Kills: http://eve.hidden-agenda.co.uk/kill_list.php
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Winterblink
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Posted - 2005.08.23 14:02:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Vilserx
Originally by: Winterblink
Originally by: Vilserx
Yet they're still expensive and unaffordable for new players whilst they're easy to get hold of for 'vets.'
Good.
I was just saying that citing implants as more of a benefit to new players rather than vets is wrong. (IMO)
Oh, then that's even better. :) It wasn't clear in your original statement.
Personally I've never understood why someone would want to use high end equipment as a new player anyway. It's like starting Everquest tomorrow and getting ticked that you can't use the best sword and armor in the game.
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theRaptor
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Posted - 2005.08.23 14:08:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Moghydin
The gap between vets and n00bs does matter. Why? Because in low sec this game IS Counterstrike in spaceships. And faster ISK acquiring and skill leaning can be a difference between putting some resistance and doing something interesting or grind and being a punching bag for gankers.
So? What do you want to be able to hit 80 million SP (which is about the maximum PVP skills) in a month like you can in most other MMO's? Hell lets just take away skill training entirely and give everyone access to all ships for free. Oh wait now im playing a flight sim which I don't remember signing up for.
You don't want to play an MMORPG, so don't. Go play one of the hundred of other games while the people like me that like MMORPG's play EVE. I like slowly increasing in skill. I like slowly getting access to new ships which forces me to explore them all instead of rushing to the handful of uber ships.
And in EVE a one day old noob can be useful in PVP. So you can jump in from day one unlike other MMO's where you need to spend months grinding to get all the uber equipment that the other highlevels have.
That is not dead which can eternal lie,
And with strange aeons even death may die.
-- Ancient "Dirt" Religious figure. |
Moghydin
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Posted - 2005.08.23 14:23:00 -
[34]
No. I don't want to be uber. All I want is to be less dependant on what a couple of griefers in the next system are deciding to do.
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Konietzko
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Posted - 2005.08.23 14:25:00 -
[35]
Edited by: Konietzko on 23/08/2005 14:27:21
It took me about 4 months to create a specialized alt that can hold its own against ceptors, assault frigs, battleships, and soon to be HACs. The key to progressing quickly is to pick one thing and stick with it. In my case I picked Amarr ships, and that's all my alt can fly. You can keep yourself busy during training by serving as a tackler or a hauler (if you choose to go the industrial route).
Additionally you'd be surprised at how few skillpoints some PVPers actually have =).
---
Konietzko
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Andrue
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Posted - 2005.08.23 14:27:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Blood good
Many of my friends dont want to play this game because if you have played this game for 1 year and then someone else starts a new character he will never catch up to the veteran.
They don't have to catch up. What you need to point out to them is that they can enjoy the game and participate in most of it after a week or two's training. There is no need to have millions of skill points.
If they genuinely don't want to join simply because of the numeric disparity then we're better off without them. That kind of "my ship's bigger than yours, nyah, nyah'" or "I want everything and I want it now" is not suited to Eve.
--
(Battle hardened miner)
[Brackley, UK]
WARNING:This post may contain large doses of reality. |
Andrue
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Posted - 2005.08.23 14:31:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Summersnow
if it armor tanks, dont train shield skills
..and of course if I'd known that when I started Andrue he wouldn't have wasted skillpoints getting those skills up to lvl 4. All he flies are Amarr ships.
And that's a big point.
Us veterans had to learn the useless skills the hard way. Nubs can be steered away from such probable lemons as "Tactical Shield Manipulation". Andrue has that to lvl 4. Go on, laugh. You know you want to 
--
(Battle hardened miner)
[Brackley, UK]
WARNING:This post may contain large doses of reality. |
Layrex
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Posted - 2005.08.23 14:31:00 -
[38]
You can catch up to the vets as long as you specialise. They will always be able to do more, but after a while they won't be better at your chosen role.
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Vilserx
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Posted - 2005.08.23 15:06:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Layrex
You can catch up to the vets as long as you specialise. They will always be able to do more, but after a while they won't be better at your chosen role.
That's not necessarily true. Every patch there seems to be loads of new skills to encourage 'specialisation' (timesinks really) which gives more for newbies to have to train.
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Avon
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Posted - 2005.08.23 15:08:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Vilserx
Originally by: Layrex
You can catch up to the vets as long as you specialise. They will always be able to do more, but after a while they won't be better at your chosen role.
That's not necessarily true. Every patch there seems to be loads of new skills to encourage 'specialisation' (timesinks really) which gives more for newbies to have to train.
Um, if they are new skills how do they disadvantage new players over older ones?
______________________________________________
Pay or pray..er..prey..yeah, pray you aren't prey. Er, just pay. |
RedlegSA
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Posted - 2005.08.23 15:08:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Moghydin
No. I don't want to be uber. All I want is to be less dependant on what a couple of griefers in the next system are deciding to do.
Avoiding them is possible - go arround is one method, but that is not always possible. An example is Grotheese. Other methods are to use a scout to see if the coast is clear or go though with enough other people to successfully overpower the pirates. Or simply not go through unsafe space I guess is another option .I can understand this is frustrating perhaps, but systems under .5 are defined as unsafe so I wouldent call them griefers really - not that I like what they do really, but pirate activity is part of the game.
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Waldo Barnstormer
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Posted - 2005.08.23 15:09:00 -
[42]
I've only been playing a couple of months and even I dont agree with giving new players a boost. For one thing.. what the hell would they do with the skills? They wouldn't be able to afford the tech 2 stuff.. and if they could (probably by supporting the macro-miners and buying the isk) all we'd get is people who aren't ready for it attacking other ships, and generally making a nuisance of themselves.. besides.. why should they get a bump on the learning curve of the game? not to mention it'd lead to an increase of kids being like "omfgwtf jo0 r sucha no0b!" in local every time you pass them by
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darth solo
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Posted - 2005.08.23 15:13:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Moghydin
The gap between vets and n00bs does matter. Why? Because in low sec this game IS Counterstrike in spaceships.
untrue..
i sometimes use a tempest with no defence only battleship offence... a couple of nOOb ships could kill me if they beat my shield recharge..
so no my friend, EVE is FAR FAR FAR from being counterstrike.
d solo.
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j0sephine
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Posted - 2005.08.23 15:29:00 -
[44]
I think the game wouldn't really get turned on its head if new characters were granted the basic learning/attributes skills pre-trained to lvl.5 when they start.
This effectively shaves ~month of most boring period in game when you sit and can't train anything that's "fun" just to be able to train these "fun" things faster... don't think there'd be any actual drawback to gameplay if it was removed.
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Winterblink
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Posted - 2005.08.23 15:34:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Avon
Um, if they are new skills how do they disadvantage new players over older ones?
This kind of intelligent logic has no place on an online forum, Avon. :)
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James Lyrus
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Posted - 2005.08.23 15:48:00 -
[46]
Edited by: James Lyrus on 23/08/2005 15:51:25
This comes around again and again.
I think I'll save the responses, to save time :).
New characters don't need to catch up with old ones. 20 million skillpoints isn't 4 times as good as 5 million skillpoints.
In many MMOs, higher level means 'they will win'. In EVE, it doesn't. Even the top notch pilots out there lose ships and even pods. And to players with less skills than them.
Skills give you an advantage, true, but it's not an overwhelming one by any means. Not everyone you meet is a hardcore PvPer. And no one you meet has _all_ their skillpoints in skills that are directly relevant to their combat ability. (Well, except maybe really young characters).
Skills cap at level 5. At level 5 in all relevant stuff, you _do_ equal the older player, except in game experience. At level 4, you are a few percent behind the level 5. Over 80% of the skillpoints of a level 5 skill are in that last 'notch' between 4 and 5.
With an identical skillset, you can have 1/5th of the skillpoints of an established character, and be 1 skill level behind.
EVE is a game where strategy and tactics mean more than skillpoints. Where intelligence and logistics win wars more than combat hardened veterans. These are all areas where 'character age' means nothing.
There's always someone with better skills, but there's never someone you can't beat in a fight.
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James Lyrus
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Posted - 2005.08.23 15:48:00 -
[47]
Edited by: James Lyrus on 23/08/2005 15:49:31
double post
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Liu Kaskakka
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Posted - 2005.08.23 15:52:00 -
[48]
I think that the gap needs to be made wider. It's totally unfair that my 21m+ SP char can be beaten by a 1m SP char.
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Critta
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Posted - 2005.08.23 15:56:00 -
[49]
Edited by: Critta on 23/08/2005 16:05:48
Originally by: j0sephine
I think the game wouldn't really get turned on its head if new characters were granted the basic learning/attributes skills pre-trained to lvl.5 when they start.
This effectively shaves ~month of most boring period in game when you sit and can't train anything that's "fun" just to be able to train these "fun" things faster... don't think there'd be any actual drawback to gameplay if it was removed.
But then it takes away the fundamental choice on starting a character of short-term vs long-term gain.
Nobody wants to train nothing else before doing their learning skills, so you get the choice of making do with what you have for the present and knowing that your character will be better off in the long run, or just training skills willy nilly and taking the SP hit in the long run for training lots of skills before doing the learning ones.
I took a route somewhere in the middle, trained the learning skills to 3, trained to tackle in a frig, then carried on training them.
Surely the whole point of this game is the breadth of options available to you, choosing what skills to train is part of this breadth, what you are saying here is that new characters should have a lot less choice of how they develop their characters.
Flexibility is one of eve's greatest strongpoints, any idea which cuts down your options in any part of the game for anything non-gamebreaking is fundamentally stupid IMO.
I can think of many more reasons why this would be a silly idea, however this is the main one.
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Andicuri Vas
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Posted - 2005.08.23 16:06:00 -
[50]
Edited by: Andicuri Vas on 23/08/2005 16:06:53
If new players were allowed to start with say...10 mil sp's, they would still get their ***es handed to them at every turn because they lack experience.
I know, because I have 18 mil sp's over 1.5 years and have just begun to really stick my head into low sec. What's that in my hand? Why, it's my a$$, of course!
The most attractive feature of EVE, IMO: SP < Experience
Bad idea.
A
V
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Vilserx
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Posted - 2005.08.23 16:06:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Avon
Originally by: Vilserx
Originally by: Layrex
You can catch up to the vets as long as you specialise. They will always be able to do more, but after a while they won't be better at your chosen role.
That's not necessarily true. Every patch there seems to be loads of new skills to encourage 'specialisation' (timesinks really) which gives more for newbies to have to train.
Um, if they are new skills how do they disadvantage new players over older ones?
It isn't but it is almost impossible for new players to get near older players, even when specialising due to the constant introduction of new skills to train (which the older players can train straight away whilst the new players have to train the earlier skills).
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Avon
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Posted - 2005.08.23 16:13:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Vilserx
It isn't but it is almost impossible for new players to get near older players, even when specialising due to the constant introduction of new skills to train (which the older players can train straight away whilst the new players have to train the earlier skills).
Didn't the older players have to train those earlier skills too?
______________________________________________
Pay or pray..er..prey..yeah, pray you aren't prey. Er, just pay. |
Winterblink
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Posted - 2005.08.23 16:19:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Vilserx
It isn't but it is almost impossible for new players to get near older players, even when specialising due to the constant introduction of new skills to train (which the older players can train straight away whilst the new players have to train the earlier skills).
You're missing out on a couple of fundamental points here.
1. Skill points != skill. Learn to fly your ship well and you will spank people who don't know how to fly theirs. Regardless of their skill points.
2. There are maximum levels skills can be trained to. Most veterans are trained up in their particular areas of expertise, but that didn't take them two years to accomplish. Not even close.
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j0sephine
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Posted - 2005.08.23 16:21:00 -
[54]
"But then it takes away the fundamental choice on starting a character of short-term vs long-term gain.
Nobody wants to train nothing else before doing their learning skills, so you get the choice of making do with what you have for the present and knowing that your character will be better off in the long run, or just training skills willy nilly and taking the SP hit in the long run for training lots of skills before doing the learning ones."
In a nutshell: if you train learning skills, you waste time spent on training them. If you don't train them, you waste time in smaller amounts whenever you train anything else.
Essentially, this makes the learning skills a choice between kick in the nuts or the one in the teeth. It's illusion of 'having options', since at the bottom of it your time is wasted no matter what you pick.
I really can't convince myself the game is somewhat better with this particular piece of mechanics... (implants/boosters with their cost and risk attached are another thing altogether and they're cool, but the learning skills are just... meh)
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SengH
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Posted - 2005.08.23 16:21:00 -
[55]
I'd say the easiest solution would be newbie boosters you could get from the intro missions. These would work up to 2million skillpoints and then stop working. The user getting a message reguarding something like your body has developed a too high tolerance for the booster or smth similar. However this might be exploited by macro miners so I dunno....
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Avon
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Posted - 2005.08.23 16:24:00 -
[56]
Originally by: j0sephine
[
In a nutshell: if you train learning skills, you waste time spent on training them. If you don't train them, you waste time in smaller amounts whenever you train anything else.
The real trick to learning learning is learining when learning learning will make learning something else faster than learning it without learning.
Couldn't be simpler.
______________________________________________
Pay or pray..er..prey..yeah, pray you aren't prey. Er, just pay. |
j0sephine
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Posted - 2005.08.23 16:28:00 -
[57]
"The real trick to learning learning is learining when learning learning will make learning something else faster than learning it without learning."
There's no trick; someone crunched all numbers in the skills forum and i can't be arsed to look it up, but it boils down to something like: if you plan to play for more than X months, train learning all the way, it'll pay off. If not, don't bother.
But yes, couldn't be simpler ;s
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ermo
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Posted - 2005.08.23 16:29:00 -
[58]
Aren't human beings amazing - you have a small group who pioneer and explore pushing the boundaries. Then you have the masses who follow behind and expect everything on a plate when they click their fingers!!
!!!NEWSFLASH!!!
EVE isn't your 24/7 hack and slash, get to level 60 in a week mmorpg - if thats how you want it, please just **** off back to wow.
New players have it easy enough already, they have access to over 2 years of older players experience and knowledge. so you don't have to make the same mistakes in character training as the vets may well have done.
New players have advanced training skills which mean you can train faster than the vets did when they first started, (in relation to) becuase there were no advanced training skills back then.
Eve is MASSIVE for a reason - you can't complete it in 24 hours you can't be the best in a week, you have to live in eve and learn, just like everybody else. Sometimes you'll win, sometimes you'll lose, but you'll gain experience along the way and with that knowledge you can evolve your character in any manner you choose.
The real time training system in EVE is the stuff of  genius because you don't have to rely on sitting at your pc xping mobs hour on end to level. You can go away and have a life and come back to the game where your character has evolved with a new skill level.
It doesn't need to be made 'new player' friendly it's fine the way it is!!
2004.06.12 23:05:27combatYour Neutron Blaster Cannon I perfectly strikes ********** wrecking for 1056.5 damage. |
Drunk Driver
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Posted - 2005.08.23 16:44:00 -
[59]
Skillpoints.....
Do I need those? |
Amaron Ghant
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Posted - 2005.08.23 16:50:00 -
[60]
Wahhh I dont have as many skilpoints as the ebil older guys.
Wahhh sticking down my spacebar "swing sword at wall" key wont increase my skills.
wahhh I cant use "reveal map" cheat code
wahhh wahhh wahhh
2 years playing. I got ganked by a squad of pilots who¦s total time in game was less than that. They had thier crap together and that day I didn¦t.
Skill points dont make the pilot. Sure they help A LOT, but teamwork and a certain amount of brainwork is all it takes to succeed.
Quit whining and play the damn game.
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