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Laurela Mangers
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Posted - 2005.08.27 17:37:00 -
[31]
Part of the problem with oversized plates, is that some ships can fit them far better than others, and the ones that can't stand no chance.
A thorax can use all 8 heavy drones and it's 1600mm and still have great damage output, where an Omen with 1600mm plate only has it's frig sized weapons to deal damage.
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BlackDog Rackh'am
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Posted - 2005.08.27 17:58:00 -
[32]
I think plate setups are a nice touch of versatility.The balance problems come from a couple of ships mostly.One is the claw,since it's got the most (i think,not sure) low slots of all ceptors,which means you can fit grid enhancing modules AND plate AND a small armor rep,provided you use short range guns (autocannons).
The other is the Thorax,because in contrast to other cruisers,it doesn't really hurt in the damage dealing department when plated.Like every other cruiser it has to stick to frig sized guns,but the rax has an extra 8 heavy drones to buff up the firepower.Sure drones are clumsy and get destroyed,but it's the only cruiser that doesn't really have to trade damage for tanking.
Maller might be too much as well if it can fit 2x1600mm plates.Don't know if it can,but i suspect that with the high grid on amarr ships and the new adv weapon upgrades skill it might be possible.
The way to go here is compare ships between the same class and see the results.As long as the ship suffers from some kind of penalty(not necessarily a penalty affecting stats and mentioned in the plate description),it's ok.
For example,i remember than the claw needed to downgrade from 200mm to 150mm autocannons for plate+rep to fit(mind you,before adv weapon upgrades came into play,i don't fly ceptors much).Also,most cruisers have to settle for lower damage output when fitting big tank setups with plates.
I don't wanna hijack this thread,but i believe it would be silly to nerf an item that's just been boosted,thus moving in a vicious circle,just because we're afraid to do some tweaking with the rax's bay(that's where most of the plate issues stem from imho).Cruisers are the middle ground,they should be highly customizable ships,jack of all trades and master of none.We should be able to fit them for either a little of everything,or max tanking or max damage,but not more than one of the above at the same time. No cruiser should be able to go full tank without suffering in damage dealing,or vice versa.
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theRaptor
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Posted - 2005.08.27 18:07:00 -
[33]
 Originally by: j0sephine
This whole "i can fit it, they are not oversized" thing is kinda like sitting in one room with elephant and pretending it's not there... everyone knows they're mounting oversized modues, that's exactly what makes these modules so useful after all. ;s
One of my plate ships is oversized (Rax of course ;))
Whats the big deal with oversizing? CCP obviously want it in the game or they would make the modules only fit on the "proper" size ship. Its just retarded to change it when they just buffed the frigging plates in the last patch. But as usual people can't be arsed to develop new tactics.
Its even funnier when half the forum is crying for damage mod nerfs and the other half for plate nerfs. 
That is not dead which can eternal lie,
And with strange aeons even death may die.
-- Ancient "Dirt" Religious figure. |
DARTHxFREE
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Posted - 2005.08.27 18:10:00 -
[34]
Edited by: DARTHxFREE on 27/08/2005 18:10:59
the problem is that some ship's can't fit plate better than others
Omen being one
but then some ships fit gank's better than others, eg Omen
>:-E3 |
Naughty Boy
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Posted - 2005.08.27 18:14:00 -
[35]
Originally by: theRaptor
Its even funnier when half the forum is crying for damage mod nerfs and the other half for plate nerfs.
Quoted for the truth.
Double ship hp accross the board, cut shield recharge rate in half, and see what happens (on the test server naturally).
Double hp will more than double fight duration, and ganksetup will be upset by manoeuvring and ew. The game becomes more tactical. Oversized plates will be more penalized as a plate is only a buffer, longer fight will rely more on repairing/boosting. A first step, not the cure for everything but a nice first step in the right direction.
Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy.
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I have the scientific evidence that some people can write but cannot read. |
theRaptor
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Posted - 2005.08.27 18:15:00 -
[36]
Originally by: BlackDog Rackh'am
I don't wanna hijack this thread,but i believe it would be silly to nerf an item that's just been boosted,thus moving in a vicious circle,just because we're afraid to do some tweaking with the rax's bay(that's where most of the plate issues stem from imho).
Rax would not be significantly weakend by a reduced drone bay. It would probably lose its ability to gank BS, but in Cruiser on Cruiser I still see it being king. With blasters you really don't lose that much damage using smalls, and range doesn't matter.
That is not dead which can eternal lie,
And with strange aeons even death may die.
-- Ancient "Dirt" Religious figure. |
Vathar
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Posted - 2005.08.27 19:10:00 -
[37]
Errrm, take out the rax's drones, and it will have a lot of trouble vs. a plated rupture (which, incidentally, CAN fit plates+mwd+cruiser guns)...
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Space Shaman
Don't take life seriously, you'll not survive it anyway
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Shin Ra
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Posted - 2005.08.27 19:18:00 -
[38]
Such a change in all ship hp would need to be supplemented by an increase in the agression timer.
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wts all new "burberry" warp core stab II's |
Meridius
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Posted - 2005.08.27 19:25:00 -
[39]
Originally by: theRaptor
Its even funnier when half the forum is crying for damage mod nerfs and the other half for plate nerfs.
Yeah it is funny, people don't know what they want because they never really think things through.
'More defense pls ganking is lame!! Longer battles!!!1111"
Heh.
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Darkside101
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Posted - 2005.08.27 20:14:00 -
[40]
The easiest way for me to prove that armour plates are overpowered is that only one race realy shield tanks anymore, and thats cos we caldari have such poor armour in the first place, plates give you more hp than the same size extenders and for a lot less cpu.
Low slots seem to have been thought of as weaker than mid slots when eve started and as a result many ships have 6 or more of them, which isnt the case for mid slots as very few ships have 6 or more and they are normaly ew ships
my point is that a fully armour tanked geddon using 8 low slots is simply much much tougher than a fully tanked scorp or raven, there is no contest.
sheild tanking must be made a little better or it will vanish from the game, it seems a little strange to me that in the advanced universe of EVE big chuncks of metal bolted onto the side of ships is still being used
yarr
DS101 |
j0sephine
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Posted - 2005.08.27 20:15:00 -
[41]
"Whats the big deal with oversizing? CCP obviously want it in the game or they would make the modules only fit on the "proper" size ship."
There's nothing wrong with mounting oversized modules per se: for example, it is possible to mount a single low-end large turret on a cruiser, if you sacrifice most of the grid. So why there's no cruisers around running with single large gun? Simple, because you can't wtfpwn people with this kind of setup.
The problems only start when mounting oversized module gives one so much edge against ships not mounting that module, that it makes fitting it pretty much mandatory. It might be also indicator for the devs that default attributes of the ships are found inadequate, if everyone and their dog runs around with oversized modules... but that's another story.
as for the "CCP wants it" thing.. yeah, that's why the armour plates are about the last remaining "oversized" module in game you can mount and gain considerable benefit... and everything else is either "one size kind of fits all", or had been tweaked to have requirements/drawbacks high enough to ensure you won't put something 'too big' on your ship. ¼¼;;
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Tido Maliyu
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Posted - 2005.08.27 20:31:00 -
[42]
 I hate when ppl do this... your ruining what ppl have trained and addapted for... like now the missiles got a nerf and all the ppl who used missiles had to find out how to make everything fit again and train even more skills.
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Draximus Cane
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Posted - 2005.08.27 21:50:00 -
[43]
Thing is 1600mm plate normally gimps somthing else in your set up, with the Rax it has an advantage of huge drone bay, and then it makes a Jammer and a wep disrupter useless as defense.
I don't think on the whole its a problem, with the exeption of Rax + Drones = Death for most <Battleship set ups
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SFX Bladerunner
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Posted - 2005.08.27 22:25:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Bazman
Even so they should be pretty easy to fix, they just need a grid increase. 500MW for a 1600 plate is litterally a drop in the ocean for battleships, 1000MW wouldn't hurt them that much
right... do keep in mind this is (a bit of) a realistic game.
and since when does pure metallic armour plates drain powergrid?
keep it real plz, plates r fine 
__________________________________________________
History is much like an endless waltz, the three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever.. |
Fuazzole
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Posted - 2005.08.27 23:01:00 -
[45]
when "oversized" plate's get nerf'd, then so shall "oversized" shield booster's
i mean a "large" shield boost on a cruiser?...that's just nerfable
just look at the fitting's
large 'accom' 46 cpu / 2000 pg
large C5-L 85cpu / 150 pg
a caracal can fit a large shield booster + 5 heavy launchers....*shock*,..and it get's to use all it's cap on boosting
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Arimas Talasko
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Posted - 2005.08.27 23:32:00 -
[46]
It's just the Thorax's massive drone bay that needs a good nerfing, to be honest. Plates are okay.
Supremacy Keepin it Real
Originally by: Daniel Jackson
PLEASE TELL US WHY, WHY DO U WANT US TO DIE,
I AM JUST GOING FRIGGEN INSAIGN
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Denmor Aldase
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Posted - 2005.08.27 23:35:00 -
[47]
Personally I think plates are fine. They extend battle times and thats always a good thing. I think that a few gank setups should be adjusted a little bit because gate camping is lame. (weee for party line!) 
What is a man if he acts like an ape?
[url=http://profile.xfire.com/denmoraldase][/url] |
j0sephine
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Posted - 2005.08.28 10:47:00 -
[48]
Edited by: j0sephine on 28/08/2005 10:48:28
"a caracal can fit a large shield booster + 5 heavy launchers....*shock*,..and it get's to use all it's cap on boosting"
Caracal can use large shield booster for 20 seconds, regaining ~800 hp of shield.
Then it runs out of cap.
In addition, "large" shield boosters aren't battleship equipment, x-large boosters are.
(you can mount x-large booster on cruiser since it has similar fitting requirement to 1600mm plate, grid-wise anyway, but it'll kill your cap literally in 2 cycles i.e. in less than 10 seconds, and regain you 1/3rd of hp the 1600mm plate gives. That's why you see people with oversized plates, but not with x-large shield boosters -- oversized shield boosters are just intricate way to commit suicide)
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Hephaesteus
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Posted - 2005.08.28 10:55:00 -
[49]
Here we go again  |
Dexter Rast
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Posted - 2005.08.28 11:17:00 -
[50]
Edited by: Dexter Rast on 28/08/2005 11:18:08
simple way to balance things out a little, without crying nerf, give the sheild extenders a little boost, they are a bit weak in comparison, and i know that they do regenerate themselves but the numbers of hp`s you gain for a large extender are a bit low in comparison to armor plates.
more sheild hp`s would also bring more moa`s/caracals back into pvp whilst also leaving the armor ships thorax/rupture unchanged and still effective agaisnt the larger ship classes.
just my 2p worth.
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Ilmonstre
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Posted - 2005.08.28 11:20:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Shin Ra
Originally by: Bad'B0y
Originally by: Shin Ra
Edited by: Shin Ra on 27/08/2005 10:45:36
Everoyne uses oversized plates (inc me from time to time). Seems like they are destined to be nerfed. Any idea if this will indeed go ahead anytime soon?
maybe if your corp didnt had all lows fulll of stabs, you could use plates also
I was refering to oversided plates. EG 1600 on a thorax. 400 on a ceptor. Unless there is a 3200 i'm not seeing it doesnt really apply to battleships.
just one thing. if you use oversized you gotta give in on damage so its not overpowered.
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Bazman
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Posted - 2005.08.28 11:27:00 -
[52]
Edited by: Bazman on 28/08/2005 11:28:52
Originally by: Ilmonstre
Originally by: Shin Ra
Originally by: Bad'B0y
Originally by: Shin Ra
Edited by: Shin Ra on 27/08/2005 10:45:36
Everoyne uses oversized plates (inc me from time to time). Seems like they are destined to be nerfed. Any idea if this will indeed go ahead anytime soon?
maybe if your corp didnt had all lows fulll of stabs, you could use plates also
I was refering to oversided plates. EG 1600 on a thorax. 400 on a ceptor. Unless there is a 3200 i'm not seeing it doesnt really apply to battleships.
just one thing. if you use oversized you gotta give in on damage so its not overpowered.
Thats true for the majority of ships. Exceptions are the Rax, Zealot, and maybe one or two others that i can't think of right now. I tend to use normal size plates on my ships, and tbh i've had fairly good results with them over the oversized plate users since i can tank long enough for my damage to really hurt them.
e.g, I managed to best a 1600mm plated Deimos with my 400mm plated Deimos with med ions while he used a combination of Electrons and light neutrons. Had he used a similar setup to me though, he'd have butchered me
^¼_¼^
this is bazman. copy bazman into your bio
to help him on his way to world domination |
Ilmonstre
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Posted - 2005.08.28 11:32:00 -
[53]
well you can also use 800MM tech II and still us the medium guns.
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Bazman
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Posted - 2005.08.28 11:45:00 -
[54]
800II's are like high end cruiser/low end battleship plates, they are great, but if your using gallente hac's you have to use med electrons, fitting anything more is difficult. Gives a nice balance of defense vs firepower
^¼_¼^
this is bazman. copy bazman into your bio
to help him on his way to world domination |
Reatu Krentor
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Posted - 2005.08.28 12:08:00 -
[55]
I don't really think there is much of a problem with the plates, apart from the Thorax (and perhaps the Claw) having its dronebay and so (but that is a 'Rax problem not a plate problem). Though I'd like to see more plates introduced for bs specifically and have some new idea i've been thinking about to vary the speed penalty instead of the always straight -10% of current plates.
It'd work like this: all plates would get a new value to their stats(I call it Thrust Compensation)
eg. 400mm plate: +600 hp; -10% velocity; Thrust compensation: 2500000 N
This value would then be used to calculate a new velocity penalty value like this:
ThrustCompensation / ShipMass = ThrustMod
VelocityMod = 1 - (ThrustMod *(1 - BaseVelocityMod[ussually -10%]))
For Claw and 400mm plate this would give:
2500000 / 1125000 = 2.2222
1 - (2.2222 *(1- 0.9)) = 0.7778 or -22.22%
This would mean that the claw's velocity would be dropped by 22% instead of 10%.
Yet a Thorax using the same plate would have a new velocity mod of -2%.
Of course these values aren't anything of CCP's, they're what I had in mind when i was thinking of this kind of change to plates, might be a bit harsh when I look at it atm. However it would make sense if plates would reduce the speed more the bigger the plate is.
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The ammatar are not the enemy, they are the smoke and mirrors of the amarr. |
Shin Ra
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Posted - 2005.08.28 12:23:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Ilmonstre
Originally by: Shin Ra
Originally by: Bad'B0y
Originally by: Shin Ra
Edited by: Shin Ra on 27/08/2005 10:45:36
Everoyne uses oversized plates (inc me from time to time). Seems like they are destined to be nerfed. Any idea if this will indeed go ahead anytime soon?
maybe if your corp didnt had all lows fulll of stabs, you could use plates also
I was refering to oversided plates. EG 1600 on a thorax. 400 on a ceptor. Unless there is a 3200 i'm not seeing it doesnt really apply to battleships.
just one thing. if you use oversized you gotta give in on damage so its not overpowered.
The same could be said for running oversized ABs back in the day. U needed MAPCs to fit them but and thus had less damage, but everyone knows they were overpowered.
Sure u loose some damage, but the benefit of all that extra armour far far outweighs the loss in damage. This especially applies to HACs.
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wts all new "burberry" warp core stab II's |
jukriamrr
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Posted - 2005.08.28 12:28:00 -
[57]
Well one thing I would love to see is the taking into account of ALL module masses when fitting a ship, an determining agility and maximum speed accordingly. This would also include whatever cargo you have.
After all, what is the mass listed in every/almost every module used for? Nothing afik ...
Besides, it would make for another optimisation race ... how to optimise PG, CPU and mass for your ship.
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Toshiro Khan
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Posted - 2005.08.28 12:32:00 -
[58]
I find it amusing, that since its been pointed out that using oversized plates is causing a massive imbalance in the game and should be sorted out, how many people are trying to justify using them.
The problem isn't just the rax.. plated claws.. are overpowered. nerfing the drone bay on a rax is not the solution. you do that, then the plated maller, will be over powered as the only ship that stands a chance of taking it down is the rax with its drones. As its been pointed out time and time again that the bane of the plated rax is the plated maller. the we have the plated claw, a prime example that plating destroys the balance of the game, this can be seen in the Jagerbomb videos.
And i would like to point out, i fly plated ships.. especially the plated rax and plated claw.. and i can freely admit their is a problem.
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bundy bear
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Posted - 2005.08.28 12:49:00 -
[59]
Maybe making cruiser guns better so when u sacrifice your powergrid for armor you are actually loosing something important. I havent seen many deminos pilots using plates.
U should have a choice firepower or armor.
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Masta Killa
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Posted - 2005.08.28 13:16:00 -
[60]
I'll cut the devs a deal; first they remove warp core stabs entirely from Eve and then they can do something for the cerberus.
And no they just boosted up the plates so they became more useful. Probably to counter these eternal gankasetups a little.
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We are The Collective. Resistance is futile. |
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