Riddle me this

Why are cap escalations, paying hundreds of millions in isk per hour, OK. To the tune of welping a dread 5 guardians a Bhaal and 20 shiny T3's being "acceptable losses" on a bad night. Yet moon goo paying for ship replacement is bad. What is it that, in your mind, makes cap escalated loot any different than moon goo.

Why is jumping throway fleets into another wormhole "real pvp", but fighting with throwaway ships in null is "no consequence". Is it because WH corps throw away 30 1bil ships while null throws away 300 100mil ships? Think about that for a minute.

By your logic wormholes are just as bad, they don't evict each other and try to conquer every single W-space system under the flag of their one particular alliance. They are not fighting over anything of value. If anything, null is emulating what is going on in wormholes. Farming ISK to a comfortable level, then throwing it away for the off chance of a gudfite where you win nothing, beyond the memory of a night of good pew pew. A night where you got a fight and didn't get blobbed is a good night.

By your logic every C6 corp should be mass producing dreads right now and trying to take control of every single system their static can possibly connect to. After all, this is what you expect of Null - go conquer neighboring systems to expand the empire. The PvP in W-space is good because they don't do this. They leave opponents to prosper near by. So that they have readily accessible people willing to fight, who can throw away ships in equal number and value.

Why is that an acceptable practice in W-Space, but not in Null? Why do they have to go shoot buildings for days under TiDi to please you?

Apparently you've been under a rock lately.

HBC is falling apart. Montolio (leader of TEST) has stepped down, some of the corps are fighting over who gets what, and the new leadership is making sweeping changes to try and fix it all. If CFC was really interested in beating HBC out of existence, now would be the perfect time to inflict some serious damage.

Except they're not. Because, yanno, RMT.

Valid points.

Either way, it doesn't matter to me. It seems that a lot of players are fascinated by the whole HBC vs CFC thing, like it's some kind of reality tv show.

You guys aren't fighting over anything of value though. There's no sov war going on, no structures being shot. You undock what your SRP will replace for you, if there's any risk you might lose isk, you don't fight. It's not real PVP when it's without consequences.

Wormhole space seems to be the last refuge of PVP in eve.

No, only PVP where both parties are risking something is real PVP. Fleets shooting other fleets for fun isn't real PVP, all the ships are reimbursed and no one loses anything. Ganking in hisec isn't real PVP, the ganker risks nothing. Hot drops aren't real PVP, the dropper risks nothing, etc. Real PVP involves risk by both sides, which only happens in WH space these days.

Apparently you've been under a rock lately.

HBC is falling apart. Montolio (leader of TEST) has stepped down, some of the corps are fighting over who gets what, and the new leadership is making sweeping changes to try and fix it all. If CFC was really interested in beating HBC out of existence, now would be the perfect time to inflict some serious damage.

Except they're not. Because, yanno, RMT.

Apparently you've been under a rock lately.

HBC is falling apart. Montolio (leader of TEST) has stepped down, some of the corps are fighting over who gets what, and the new leadership is making sweeping changes to try and fix it all. If CFC was really interested in beating HBC out of existence, now would be the perfect time to inflict some serious damage.

Except they're not. Because, yanno, RMT.

You guys aren't fighting over anything of value though. There's no sov war going on, no structures being shot. You undock what your SRP will replace for you, if there's any risk you might lose isk, you don't fight. It's not real PVP when it's without consequences.

Wormhole space seems to be the last refuge of PVP in eve.

Confirming that Montolio betrayed us, Dreddit is planning to leave TEST, Fras Siabi is The Mittani's alt, Sort makes over $100/month in RMT and all members of the HBC hate each other.

$100/month in RMT

The war in the east is good, but it's not nearly enough.

Though maybe "blue doughnut" should be "blue croissant".

the whole donut term is well misleading as hell.

Ladies and gentlemen: The Blue Donut.
http://i.imgur.com/iBENb1t.png
ohwait

I never really suggested it was good enough. It would make sense in a PvP game for everyone to shoot anyone not in their alliance, but sadly the vast majority of players in this game are simply afraid of their own shadow and the thought of a challenge. So they seek help to ensure a victory. The fallout to this thought process is it forces the opposing side to do the same and more. So back and forth it goes with each side trying to gain the upper hand in the situation till you finally have two ultra super blocks with so much territory that they are too fat to fight.

The sad reality is what we have in the west is two major power houses who don't want to grind any structures, because they are not looking at shooting structures on one moon, or one system, or one constellation, hell... not even one region. They would have to grind several regions to achieve that 'victory'. Even if both sides decided to do real combat (sorry, tossing SRP ships at each other in some scheduled Thunderdome does not count) the outcome would be determined after just a few major battles. The rest of the war would be grinding, grinding, grinding.

Then you would see all kinds of corps and alliances assessing the situation and realizing they are on the losing side and immediately bail out or switch sides for 'safety'. Honestly can you blame them though? Why stay and lose everything asset wise fighting a war you can't win? Which by them leaving/switching sides just makes the decision even more obvious for those who were on the fence.

The real enemy. The true face of evil in all of this is power projection. Why should someone living in Period Basis be keeping tabs on activity in Tenal - much less over there fighting? Not saying that is what is happening right now, but my point is it takes literally minutes to cross the map and project any amount of force you want. All this does is cause an arms race. A race that has no end but constant gobbling up of warm bodies in the name of 'defending your territory'. Territory that simply gets larger and larger as you pull in more and more people. The possible enemy sees all this and they follow with the same philosophy.

PRESTO!!!

You now have the stagnant piece of crap null space you see now. It has been the same song and dance for years now. The same recycled faces and names over and over and over. Sure you will see a once in a while change, but it is either short lived or eventually surrenders to the same beast that has been devouring null for years. It just has become more and more obvious because there is far more people playing. Back in ~the day~ vast amounts of space and limited power projection kept these kinds of things in check. Splash in the various bridging methods, jump drives and other various methods of instantly moving from point A to point B and you hit the wall we are now staring at.

You simply can not take a crap without it being reported across the galaxy on how much and what color withing seconds. We have dozens of highly efficient methods of gathering intel created by the players in combination with absolutely easy methods of in game mechanics to know potential enemy movements. This knowledge fosters a tremendous amount of risk aversion because of that. You have capital ships traveling regions in a matter of just a few minutes to be cyno'd in by some NPC alt on top of a couple low sec dreads - just because. Which of course will send a clear message to become even MORE risk averse.

In closing in this TL;DR post; everyone is to blame for the current situation. Only when CCP addresses the issue by them waking up or us forcing them to do something about it, will it ever change. Until then, enjoy the boredom.

Even if both sides decided to do real combat (sorry, tossing SRP ships at each other in some scheduled Thunderdome does not count)

Why?

Wormholers bring a fleet of Billion isk T3 ships from the ship replacement program funded by capital escalations. They farm them back in two hours of anomalies, how long is your average call to arms? Do you get to drain the SRP of a Billion isk per CTA on average? (i'm honestly asking, don't know).

Why are Wormholes heralded as the last real PVP in EvE and Null gets bashed? When Wormholes have been nothing but ship replacement program thunderdome. With batphones making sure the participants only get bruised, not crippled or killed.

Someone please explain this to me.

The one major reason is no cynos and limitation on mass allowed through a wormhole before it collapses. Granted measures are taken to have an advantage before starting a fight, they are no where near out of control like you find in known space.

is tossing SRP ships at each other in scheduled fights over timers real pvp please enlighten me

Still, structure grinding is boring if no one shows up to fight.

If conflict in 0.0 sec is grinding to a halt, at some point the CCP infiltrators in the big alliances will do their thing and then watch the glory of big alliances going up in flames.

It happened before and it will happen again

Offcourse the rumours of CCP infiltrators are hard to prove

let me list ships that aren't covered fully under SRP by my alliance:

haulers/mining ships
ratting ships
faction battleships, besides machariels flown by characters with specific skills trained (which i have on an alt :smug:)
ships that are Generally Recognized as Awful (i.e. phantasms and other crap)

naturally it's only real pvp if we're in spontaneous fights in battle retrievers since everything not covered fully is covered partially unless it's in those first two categories

All that does is enforce the thunderdome by game mechanics limiting the size of the engagement, favoring "billion isk cruisers" over "billion isk capitals". You also have not answered the question.

Why is Wormhole Thunderdome the holy grail of PvP, but Null Thunderdome is a joke that must be frowned upon.
Why is it looked upon with respect when a wormhole corp welps a SRP fleet, but Null residents in SRP fleets are called risk averse care bears and looked down upon.

Why must null go grind structures to capture systems they don't want in the first place to appease spectators, but it's OK for Wormhole corps not to POS bash every system they connect to and set up their own towers.

is this why you want structure mails removed