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Severe McCald
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Posted - 2005.09.02 14:26:00 -
[31]
Josephine is just about the only one in this thread looking at the point from what is good for the game. 
Of course T2 should have been independent of T1. It's a new technology! You don't need to learn how vacuum tubes worked in old style radio/tv to learn about electronics. If CCP wanted to retain s/m/l chain, that is up to them, but the link with the old technology skills is not in the interests of new players = the game.
Speaking as someone who has Large Rail Spec 4. 
Sev
To err is human, to forgive divan. |
DarthJosh
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Posted - 2005.09.02 14:55:00 -
[32]
First off , stop comparing EVE ideals to real life ideals....
Second , leave tech II large gun training as it is, using tech 1 named guns with good gunnery skills still produces ample damage, and having every single person running around with tech II guns isnt a bright idea as they are considered one of the high up things to train for , may as well give people that start the game the option to have the heavy assault training from the beggining...
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TIO 101
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Posted - 2005.09.02 15:07:00 -
[33]
 Originally by: DarthJosh
may as well give people that start the game the option to have the heavy assault training from the beggining...
seconded :D \o/
time to make a new char ;)
TIO 101 - Dealing Justice
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j0sephine
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Posted - 2005.09.02 15:27:00 -
[34]
"having every single person running around with tech II guns isnt a bright idea as they are considered one of the high up things to train for"
Circular reasoning ftw -- "we should keep these skills a high up thing to train for, because they're considered a high up thing to train for" -.o
If the point is to keep training times long enough to preserve lengths of people e-peens, why not uncouple the specializations and simply bump the ranks on the base turret skills?
Have the large turret take 60 days for required lvl.5 instead of 30 and be done with it...
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Katsumoto
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Posted - 2005.09.02 15:37:00 -
[35]
 Not Signed
Originally by: 13thDragon
I disagree, T2 large guns are supposed to be elite and take a long time to train and take some effort to get. Reduce the skills everyone will have them and not just the people who want to specialise in one weapon/ship.
If you really want Large T2 Turrets / Launchers you have to take the time to train them.
Just my point of view
Absolutely correct, and lets face it, it aint gonna change now because so many people have put the time in to train for large t2 guns, and just because you want to train for them but dont want to spend months skill training you start trying to pursuade the devs to reduce the requirements. Just train for them and stop whining. If the requirements are reduced then thats not really specialisation is it?
Force Of Evil
[email protected]
"If i was in world war two they'd call me spitfire." |
j0sephine
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Posted - 2005.09.02 15:49:00 -
[36]
"Training for large guns is just like training for a battleship. You want to fly the battleship but you have to train frigates and cruisers up before you get there."
No; specialization training is quite different from base ship and turret training, because none of these base skills have lvl.5 pre-requisites.
In order for these trainings to be indeed similar, battleship skill would have to require cruiser lvl.5, and cruiser skill would in turn require frigate lvl.5 ... and large turrets should require medium turrets 5, while medium turrets would require small turrets at lvl.5
... but something tells me there's plenty battleship pilots out there who are quite happy they were allowed to get into their ship of choice with cruiser and frigate skills at lvl.4, and small and medium gun skills at lvl.3 ... and never bothered to train it further.
(until they desired a switch to interceptor or assault cruiser, or started working on their 'specializations', anyway
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Katsumoto
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Posted - 2005.09.02 15:51:00 -
[37]
Yes but what i am saying is you cannot just train the battleship skill straight off just because you want to fly a battleship, just like t2 large turrets.
Force Of Evil
[email protected]
"If i was in world war two they'd call me spitfire." |
j0sephine
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Posted - 2005.09.02 15:56:00 -
[38]
Edited by: j0sephine on 02/09/2005 15:56:07
"Yes but what i am saying is you cannot just train the battleship skill straight off just because you want to fly a battleship, just like t2 large turrets."
I understand; what i'm saying it, unlike the turret specializations you don't need to be expert in flying both frigates and cruisers, before you're allowed to get that battleship skills.
It's that being expert in the stuff you don't need part of the requirements that's ill thought-out, imo...
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Katsumoto
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Posted - 2005.09.02 16:01:00 -
[39]
yeah i see where your coming from, but i doubt now ccp will change it after so long. If this thread was here closer to when the skills and t2 turrets were realeased then the change may have happened. But ccp never ceases to amaze me. 
Force Of Evil
[email protected]
"If i was in world war two they'd call me spitfire." |
Slater Dogstar
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Posted - 2005.09.02 16:11:00 -
[40]
Well i would like to start by saying gret game. Ive only been playing it for 8 days and the sheer scope of eve is almost mindblowing, So just on this allone i feel ccp did great.
Now thats out of the way to the topic at hand.
Personally i feel it should stay as it it is for several reasons to begine with tech 2 guns are the best around so shoud be a long term commitment also the time taken to get the skills also lets us newbs LEARN how to use them properly.
If tech 2 needed less skills it wont seem so special anymore, i do agree that there are a lot of skills to learn for a tech 2 larg gun but in the end it is worth it in the long run im sure.
Besides the skills you need to learn are usefull for more than tech 2 as ther give a blanket upgrade to all wepons of that size i.e. medium specialisation affects all medium guns of that type.
Every Time You Use A Warp Stab Ovyer Kills A Puppy!!! |
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j0sephine
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Posted - 2005.09.02 16:12:00 -
[41]
"yeah i see where your coming from, but i doubt now ccp will change it after so long."
Aye, not really likely now ^^;;
was thinking about it some more, and i figure it'd perhaps work better if this particular skill tree went more like:
rather than medium specialization requiring the small spec, and large spec requiring the medium one, there's a 'generic' weapon-type related skill. Let's say it's called "Advanced <weapon type> theory" and it's high rank skill. then you can have specializations go like:
small hybrid turret 5 -> advanced bybrid theory 3 -> small specializations for railgun/blaster
medium hybrid turret 5 -> advanced hybrid theory 4 -> medium specializations for railgun/blaster
large hybrid turret 5 -> advanced hybrid theory 5 -> large specializations for railgun/blaster
... similar for other turret types. This way it'd still take significant amount of time to reach the tech.2 skills, but at the same time you could actually specialize in frigate/cruiser/battleship weapons separately...
oh well. --;;
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capt
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Posted - 2005.09.02 16:26:00 -
[42]
Maybe I didn't read all post too carefully, but I think I didn't see anyone saying that to use large guns(any non t2) you need to have small and medium guns skills trained up to a certain level.
Logic dictates that it should work the same for the specialisation skills. If you want to use the big ones, then you have to learn how to use the smaller ones too........ 
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Slater Dogstar
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Posted - 2005.09.02 16:37:00 -
[43]
Originally by: capt
Maybe I didn't read all post too carefully, but I think I didn't see anyone saying that to use large guns(any non t2) you need to have small and medium guns skills trained up to a certain level.
Logic dictates that it should work the same for the specialisation skills. If you want to use the big ones, then you have to learn how to use the smaller ones too........
Yea thats how i see it too.
Every Time You Use A Warp Stab Ovyer Kills A Puppy!!! |
j0sephine
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Posted - 2005.09.02 16:47:00 -
[44]
"Maybe I didn't read all post too carefully, but I think I didn't see anyone saying that to use large guns(any non t2) you need to have small and medium guns skills trained up to a certain level."
Katsumoto said it a few posts above ^^
The counter-point is the bold part itself -- large guns require medium and small ones trained up to certain point, not all the way up to absolute expertise. Specializations skills on the other hand, do. While the basic similarity is there, the increase of requirements might've been pushed in the wrong direction, limiting the number of possible specialization areas to just the basic few.
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Severe McCald
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Posted - 2005.09.02 16:49:00 -
[45]
I repeat, I see no reason why CCP should abandon its small > med > large progression, but why does a new char have to learn small obsolete tech 1 > med obsolete tech 1 > large obsolete tech 1 b4 moving on to small current tech?
It is silly and undermines the game's ability to attract new players in the future.
It is all very well saying that you had to do it (so did I), but will the same apply to tech 3, tech 4 and ... well we wont get there. There will be insufficient new blood coming into the game if the poor sods have to train for two years plus to become competitive.
Sev
To err is human, to forgive divan. |
Weirda
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Posted - 2005.09.02 17:04:00 -
[46]
weirda think that it should remain as it is. why?
it should take as long as it does (or longer) to use the t2 guns. however achieved (that was a nice idea about a generic weapon specilization skill btw j0), anything that keep people from doing max possible damage fastest is good. t1 variants (albeit very expensive ones) that have the same base damage as the t2 ('scout'/'arbalast'), and lower fitting requirement already exist to close the gap on damage potential. not to mention, one or two well placed mods are already the equivalent of months of training (sensor booster/tracking comp/damage mods) if the person so choose to fit their ship that way.
anyhow - weirda is opposed to changing the way it is now, unless a way to balance out and make the training time equivalent is there. the nice thing about way skills currently are (to elve sorrow's sorrow) is that you actualy get something useful out of the prereqs, whereas with a single high rank skill (like j0 recommend), it is doubtful you would get as much benefit from that skill. 
weirda have small/med/large specialization for both lasers and projectile - and while it took long time, am very happy that have both, as well as all the skills that come with it (especially since much like elve, weirda spend most time in frigates, and prefer that battle style over others).
anyhow... that is weirda 20isk on the matter... 
--
Thread Killer
(attempting to train verbosity from 4 back down to 1)
<END TRANSMISSION> |
j0sephine
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Posted - 2005.09.02 17:17:00 -
[47]
"the nice thing about way skills currently are (to elve sorrow's sorrow) is that you actualy get something useful out of the prereqs, whereas with a single high rank skill (like j0 recommend), it is doubtful you would get as much benefit from that skill. "
Well, i figure the nice thing about this generic skill is, there could be any sort of bonus tied to it, that'd apply to all weapons of that particular type (be it faster rof, better tracking, range, less cap use, better fitting reqirements, whatever) ... this way it'd have noticeable effect for anyone who trained any version of the specialization, as opposed to current way where the battleship pilots don't really get any practical benefit from having specializations in both small and middle turrets... unless they also fly ships that utilize these weapons.
I can see how people who do fly mixed ship sizes could prefer it being the current way, though ^^ as it makes no difference to them since they'd want to train all these separate specializations anyway...
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Miri Tirzan
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Posted - 2005.09.02 18:07:00 -
[48]
I have to agree, having already put the time in to get to large turret specialization for both beam and pulse, I do not want to see it changed now for everyone else.
svetlana - "whining gets you stuff. that is why humans got to the top of the food chain and all the other animals got nerfed."
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Kyle Chimko
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Posted - 2005.09.02 19:30:00 -
[49]
yeah your right we shouldnt have to train skills in a certain order to get what we want. it should be that if i want a battle ship i should only train the battleship skill as obviously a battleship has nothing to do with cruiser or frigate skills.
the way the skills are setup for tech 2 weapons are fine in my opinion
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Jet Collins
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Posted - 2005.09.02 19:34:00 -
[50]
NOT signed. Not only would it not be fait to the people who have already trained them all just to use the large as said it would not be a specialty which it is and should say. IF you want to me a marksman train to be one you can;t half as*
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Weirda
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Posted - 2005.09.02 20:10:00 -
[51]
Edited by: Weirda on 02/09/2005 20:10:16
Originally by: j0sephine
I can see how people who do fly mixed ship sizes could prefer it being the current way, though ^^ as it makes no difference to them since they'd want to train all these separate specializations anyway...
you just summed weirda up perfectly tbh... guess it just selfishness that want no change... see battleship specialization only as necessary evil to augment other skills and the other specialization would have been trained up anyways.
a good side effect though (wanted or not) is that BS pilots will have the skills and opportunity to fly the other classes with weapon specialization (or downsize their weapon and still get good guns). this is good because a lot of the bickering that go on in forum is 'grass greener' syndrom where different classes of pilots don't have the practical experience for the assumptions that they throw out of what it's like to fly the other classes (you will often see 'they want everyone in BS' comming from frig pilot, and 'they want everyone in frigs' coming from bs pilot). go figure...
not signed...
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Thread Killer
(attempting to train verbosity from 4 back down to 1)
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Voltron
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Posted - 2005.09.02 20:23:00 -
[52]
Large T2 guns definately need to remain as is. Yes they take alot of time to train for, but the reward is pretty good once you do. You don't want to put the time in, live with named T1 guns.
Volt
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DrunkenOne
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Posted - 2005.09.02 20:26:00 -
[53]
It makes perfect sense to me. People are trying to use RL comparisons, "oh if u wanna fly a bs it doesnt make sense fo fly a frig and cruiser!!!"
Does a new navy recruit get to be in command of an aircraft carrier? Is the first gun you ever shot a bazooka?
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Elve Sorrow
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Posted - 2005.09.02 20:30:00 -
[54]
Edited by: Elve Sorrow on 02/09/2005 20:31:27
No, ofcourse its not. But you dont specialise in both guns, machineguns and bazookas either do you? Nor can a navy pilot fly both fighterpilots and civilian transport thingies.
But RL dont have stuff to do with EVE tbh.
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Fiddlestx
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Posted - 2005.09.02 21:01:00 -
[55]
Edited by: Fiddlestx on 02/09/2005 21:02:52
Edited by: Fiddlestx on 02/09/2005 21:02:05
It makes perfect sense. It's a natural progression as you play eve. You start small and move on to bigger things. In a few days, I'll have been playing a year. When I first started there were things that I saw and heard about that amazed me making me feel as though It would take forever to get there myself. Now that I'm starting to get more and more T2 abilities, it still gives me a sense of acomplishment when I finish that long training that I have been working at for ages it seems.
If you remove that natural progression you'll be cutting those who have been playing for a long time off at the knees. They will lose any sense of accomplishment that they had. T2 distinguishes those who have been playing for a long time from those who are just starting. Don't nerf it, just suck it up and train up for it. It's good the way it is, without the ability to progress over time eve would not be what it is.
Just my .02isk,
Fiddlestx
"To secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands... the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself."
Sun Tsu
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Meridius
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Posted - 2005.09.02 21:06:00 -
[56]
Not signed. The longer it takes for people to get into large t2 turrets the better.
That and it wouldn't be fair to the people who have already trained small + medium for large.
________________________________________________________
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Drutort
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Posted - 2005.09.02 22:30:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Azuriel Talloth
I agree, it's not the turret skills that are the problem, it's that the missile users have it too easy.
hmm the problem is that some ships have tur/launcher ratio's
those pilots would get really gimped as they would have to train 2 areas in spec... to use all there high slots...
either make missiles skills same as tur AND give those other battleships the option of more tur slots so that they could use all there high's with guns and not have to worry about launchers.
they have to do one or the other... otherwise all those ships that have ratio in the high slots... are going to be quite upset... not to mention all minmatar pilots for sure
support Idea: QuickInfo an alternative to ShowInfo
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Severe McCald
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Posted - 2005.09.02 22:45:00 -
[58]
The reasons given for keeping it like it is, are that it would be a slap in the face for those who spent so long training old tech to get to tech 2.
Bollox. Introducing new skills to do what we always could do before they introduced the new skills, that was a slap in the face.
Taking steps to avoid this game becoming a ghetto; that is just sensible. When we learnt tech 1, tech 2 didn't exist. Of course we had to learn tech 1. It doesn't follow that it should be a prereq. for tech 2.
Never mind your own special interest in maintaining an advantage (you already have that with advanced learning skills). It cannot be right that someone starting in Jan 2006 will have to train until sometime in late 2007 to catch up and be in the same ballpark as older players.
Sev
To err is human, to forgive divan. |
Drutort
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Posted - 2005.09.02 22:52:00 -
[59]
Why couldnĘt Tech2 fallow the logic of tech1? In the ranks? Or similar? Just with different ranks for the skills (like a few others have mentioned here already)
Make
S lvl3 >> S specialization
M specialization >> M lvl3 + S specialization lvl3
L specialization >> L lvl3 + M specialization lvl3
And the only thing that should change is the rank on the specialization skillsą that way you can move through the chain to your desired size gun quicker but the true specialization would require you to train lvl4 or 5ą the specialization should be within its skills not in the old tech1
The above can be even done with lvl2 and just much higher ranks of the specialization skills that wayą to be of any use in the specialization size level you would have to train it to lvl4-5 to gain more then just the 2-4% from the lvl1-2
But instead we have these lvl5 tech1 and lvl4 specialization requirements which are stupid IMOą because you will fly one type of ship with 90% of the sized ships gunsą so you wouldnĘt be too considered with the specialization of the lower sized guns.
( I didnĘt put the requirements of the other gunnery skillsą which I think are good and they should stay the same)
oh and for those who say slapped in the face for the past changes... hmm do you guys forget this is a MMO? things always change... just look at how things have changed... at the start of the game BS were king... all other ships were almost useless, just stepping stones... now people have so many new skills and options and specializations... that you really cant complain about changes to skill requirements...
because most likely you would still fly once in a while different ship size... and you already have the skills...
the only difference here is that things would get rearranged but the time to train could still be pretty closely done, just by modifying the ranks of the spec skills.
support Idea: QuickInfo an alternative to ShowInfo
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DarthJosh
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Posted - 2005.09.03 00:19:00 -
[60]
Just leave this topic alone, it is a redundant point which no one feels strongly enough about to warrant change.
Good things come to those who wait.....so wait....You cant start the game and expect the biggest and best stuff off the bat. You want that go play WoW.
Someone highlighted an idea the other day suggesting that characters start with say 5million sp and are then given a boost.
You cant expect someone who is a month old to compare to someone 2 years old.
Its EVE's real time skill training that makes the game what it is...nothing feels better than finishing off a large turret or cruiser skill and knowing your only 1 skill away from something new...
Find something else to pick at please , this is fine how it is...
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