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Nar Kotor
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Posted - 2005.09.02 09:24:00 -
[1]
I think its a little unfair at the moment that someone who wants to use tech 2 Large turrets MUST train the small/medium skills to 5 AND train the required small/medium specialisation as well.
If more levels are added the problem will only get worse, as you will, undoubtedly, have to train the small/medium specialisation to 5 and add new skills to 4 before even starting on large specialisation 5.
Any views on this.
_____/------\_____
Rap is to music what paint by numbers is to art
Conserve toilet paper, use both sides
Nuke the unborn baby whales
Your AD here |
Caroline 888
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Posted - 2005.09.02 09:27:00 -
[2]
Signed.
Im Phoenix's wife and I do all the talking so keep it polite ! |
TIO 101
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Posted - 2005.09.02 09:31:00 -
[3]
feck, never even noticed this :/
signed.
TIO 101 - Dealing Justice
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Agnar Koladrov
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Posted - 2005.09.02 09:42:00 -
[4]
Signed.
Never really saw the point in it to also train for specialist small turret skill when all I would liked to have is only med specialist.
But then again how it is now also seems somewhat logical...dunno.
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13thDragon
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Posted - 2005.09.02 09:52:00 -
[5]
I disagree, T2 large guns are supposed to be elite and take a long time to train and take some effort to get. Reduce the skills everyone will have them and not just the people who want to specialise in one weapon/ship.
If you really want Large T2 Turrets / Launchers you have to take the time to train them.
Just my point of view
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Okoru
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Posted - 2005.09.02 09:55:00 -
[6]
I think getting t2 large guns should remain as is. It shouldn't be something that you can just sit down and do. You should be required to specialize for it. 
---
What I say has nothing to do with my corp.
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MacDuncan
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Posted - 2005.09.02 10:03:00 -
[7]
Nooooo....just a few days left 'til T2 1400s....leave them alone....if i had to train them, all those others should train them as well... 
Believe me:
You'll need all those other specs as well...
--
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xKillaH
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Posted - 2005.09.02 10:06:00 -
[8]
I think tech 2 L guns should remain as it is!
if not every noob can train it and then it wouldn't be so gr8!
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Douglas McCracken
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Posted - 2005.09.02 10:09:00 -
[9]
NOOOOOOOOOO!! Keep T2 guns as they are, if you want them you should spend time getting them, while we are on the subject T2 launchers need to be fixed, T2 torp launchers only need 1 lvl5 skill, wtf is that about.. 
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Rex Martell
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Posted - 2005.09.02 10:11:00 -
[10]
No! Leave Tech II guns alone.
The idea behind TECH II Specialisations skills is to make it possible to specialise in a praticular field and be elite in that area.
TECH III weapons and systems will require S/M/L or equilivant base specialisation trained to level V. (No Guarantee that these will ever appear)
"The object of war is not to die for your corp, but to make the other b@##@#d die for his" |
RedClaws2
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Posted - 2005.09.02 10:15:00 -
[11]
Its to late to change anything now but what i find "really" weird is that CCP decided to make t2 skill for turrets linked but not for misslelauchers : what wiseass came up with that?
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Ysolde Xen
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Posted - 2005.09.02 10:16:00 -
[12]
Keep it as it is - don't devalue the elite nature of tech 2 weaponry! You have to learn the skills for smaller guns to use the bigger Tech 1 guns so why not keep Tech 2 gun skills in line with this? If people want more bang for their buck ratehr than their skills then buy faction guns. |
Elve Sorrow
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Posted - 2005.09.02 10:38:00 -
[13]
You think Large Tech II gun users have it hard?
This particular thing also guarantees that any Battleship specialised pilot will usually do the same, and never more then 2% less, damage then a specialised Frigate pilot.
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Admiral IceBlock
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Posted - 2005.09.02 11:01:00 -
[14]
ccp want us to specialize right? so how come if i want to specialize in battleships i first have to specialize in frigates and crusiers before coming to battleship specilizaton? it doesnt make any sence really...
but then again ccp isnt known to make any sence at all! 
"We brake for nobody"
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Admiral IceBlock
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Posted - 2005.09.02 11:04:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Admiral IceBlock on 02/09/2005 11:06:05
 Originally by: xKillaH
I think tech 2 L guns should remain as it is!
if not every noob can train it and then it wouldn't be so gr8!
it takes time to train large gun to lvl5, why would you think a n00b would do that the minute he starts the game? and t2 is still great even if more people has it!
you didnt think before posting did you?
"We brake for nobody"
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FireFoxx80
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Posted - 2005.09.02 11:04:00 -
[16]
If anything, surely missile skills need to be nerfed so you have to train Rocket 5, Standard 5, etc. Just like turret skills?
Possibly one of the 23 # ex: P-TMC | USAC |
Azuriel Talloth
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Posted - 2005.09.02 11:12:00 -
[17]
I agree, it's not the turret skills that are the problem, it's that the missile users have it too easy.
"Making no mistakes is what establishes the certainty of victory,
for it means conquering an enemy that is already defeated." |
Liu Kaskakka
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Posted - 2005.09.02 11:17:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Liu Kaskakka on 02/09/2005 11:19:57
Edited by: Liu Kaskakka on 02/09/2005 11:17:32
Haha, it takes like 10 days to train small + medium spec lvl 1-4. So not signed, get training you muppets.
Edit: Not even that if you got decent attributes
Edit2: Ah, you're whining that you also have to train the actual turret skills to lvl 5, well, tough kuggel, I don't care, go train em since I did so too.
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NateX
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Posted - 2005.09.02 11:22:00 -
[19]
Signed-
NateX |
LUKEC
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Posted - 2005.09.02 11:37:00 -
[20]
not signed....
everyone wants to use t2 bs stuff in no time. Back to training. If i had to do it, u should too. And i'm not that old. But if i wasted 5d on med. rail spec so should u.
And remember: t2 = leet. But if every idiot will have it, then they will need to introduce t3 soon.
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j0sephine
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Posted - 2005.09.02 11:51:00 -
[21]
Edited by: j0sephine on 02/09/2005 11:52:47
"I don't care, go train em since I did so too."
and
"If i had to do it, u should too."
... seems to be main argument to keep things the way they are now... you people sure you're thinking of what'd make the game better, or just feeling bitter about training time you recognize as wasted... and just want everyone else have it as bad as you had it so you don't feel even more shafted over this whole specialization deal..?
(i did train the specializations, btw. for rails. on caldari ship. so don't talk to me about wasted training time.... but i couldn't care less if someone else doesn't have to go all way this dumb road as well. since it is dumb, and you know it as well as i do, being you did this training yourself.
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Captain Rod
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Posted - 2005.09.02 11:54:00 -
[22]
Yeah I think you should change that Northern Intelligence to the well known oxymoron of military intelligence.
T2 Large Guns = affordable best named guns + the skills needed to get there ensure you are good at using them. Get training, your range and/or tracking plus the damage bonuses will be great.
Yes I'm sure there will be further additions and maybe a new branch to the gunnery tree when t2 ammo comes out (if ever) but as stated previously, it allows for specialisation, allows for you to carve out your own piece of eve, have your own skill brought to a gang and stand out from the crowd.
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j0sephine
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Posted - 2005.09.02 12:01:00 -
[23]
Edited by: j0sephine on 02/09/2005 12:01:40
"as stated previously, it allows for specialisation, allows for you to carve out your own piece of eve, have your own skill brought to a gang and stand out from the crowd."
Specialization would be if i could be really really good at say, large rails while the other guy is really really good at small rails.
As it is now, if am good at firing large tech.2 rails, am as good at firing the small tech.2 rails as that 'small rail specialist' ... am sure he's feeling all fuzzy about his gunnery specialization skills that make him stand out from the crowd of specialized battleship weapon gunners. >>;
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Menelak Faf
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Posted - 2005.09.02 12:16:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Menelak Faf on 02/09/2005 12:17:36
I'd either like to see the link between gunnery skills removed, or make the missile users angry and add a link to theirs. Starting at rockets.
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Nar Kotor
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Posted - 2005.09.02 12:26:00 -
[25]
ok I may need to clarify this a little. I don't want to use Large turrets, I am however aiming to specialise in Battlecruisers (dont really want to think about trying to kit out a BS anyway, too expensive for my tastes).
I dont think this would mean lots of noobs flying about with T2 as its still expensive and requires other skills to mount well. I just think it would expand on the customisablity of a character.
It will also help those who want to fly different race frigate/cruiser/battleship. Currently if I want to fly Amarr Battlecruiser, but caldari frigates, I MUST train small lasers, regardless of whether I want to use them.
_____/------\_____
Rap is to music what paint by numbers is to art
Conserve toilet paper, use both sides
Nuke the unborn baby whales
Your AD here |
Arkanis
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Posted - 2005.09.02 12:34:00 -
[26]
The specialisation isn't to size. It's not about specialising to be the bestest best battleship pilot with the biggest guns.
CCP's specialisation is to the type of gun. Pulse, beam, blaster, railgun etc
That's the reason why there's s/m/l are linked as its specialisation to a weapon type. Not a size.
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j0sephine
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Posted - 2005.09.02 12:46:00 -
[27]
"The specialisation isn't to size. It's not about specialising to be the bestest best battleship pilot with the biggest guns.
CCP's specialisation is to the type of gun. Pulse, beam, blaster, railgun etc"
Yeah; simply put, CCP and the playerbase are/were on different pages when it comes to idea how to play the game.
People seem to specialize for ships they like, and then for whatever gear they'll use on their ships. Devs created gear-oriented specialization chains that require people to "learn" equipment they have no intention to use because it goes on ships they don't want to fly.
The way missile specializations are done might be sign of recognition the original implementation for guns was somewhat off... guess we'll see. or not o.o;
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Khatred
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Posted - 2005.09.02 13:40:00 -
[28]
Following the logic you should be able to train the battleship skill directly (because one might want to fly a battleship and just a battleship, not interested in frigates or such)
But as another poster already wrote, CCP's ideea is specialize in a field: eg. rail specialist, laser pulse specialist etc. and same for ships: gallente pilot, amarr pilot etc.
On the other hand the attitude "I spent the time training, so should you" it's quite bitter 
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j0sephine
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Posted - 2005.09.02 13:50:00 -
[29]
"Following the logic you should be able to train the battleship skill directly (because one might want to fly a battleship and just a battleship, not interested in frigates or such)"
Yup; Note it's not really far from it even today -- it'd take ~week to get the required frigate and cruiser skill levels trained, even without advanced learning.
On the other hand it takes considerably longer to train both small and medium turrets of desired type all way to lvl.5, and then both the small and medium specializations ... and given the damage increase you get from specialization is at best 10% when compared to available tech.1 equipment, one could even question if it's really worth all that extra time required for it.
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JoeSomebody
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Posted - 2005.09.02 14:07:00 -
[30]
seeing hordes of whining frig pilots "specialising" in frigs almost makin me agree with original poster... but then again i've already wasted my time on those skills, so i say NO! 
____
When flying by Concord Customs Commander's Dominix I distinctly heard him saying "... world domination..." |
Severe McCald
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Posted - 2005.09.02 14:26:00 -
[31]
Josephine is just about the only one in this thread looking at the point from what is good for the game. 
Of course T2 should have been independent of T1. It's a new technology! You don't need to learn how vacuum tubes worked in old style radio/tv to learn about electronics. If CCP wanted to retain s/m/l chain, that is up to them, but the link with the old technology skills is not in the interests of new players = the game.
Speaking as someone who has Large Rail Spec 4. 
Sev
To err is human, to forgive divan. |
DarthJosh
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Posted - 2005.09.02 14:55:00 -
[32]
First off , stop comparing EVE ideals to real life ideals....
Second , leave tech II large gun training as it is, using tech 1 named guns with good gunnery skills still produces ample damage, and having every single person running around with tech II guns isnt a bright idea as they are considered one of the high up things to train for , may as well give people that start the game the option to have the heavy assault training from the beggining...
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TIO 101
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Posted - 2005.09.02 15:07:00 -
[33]
Originally by: DarthJosh
may as well give people that start the game the option to have the heavy assault training from the beggining...
seconded :D \o/
time to make a new char ;)
TIO 101 - Dealing Justice
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j0sephine
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Posted - 2005.09.02 15:27:00 -
[34]
"having every single person running around with tech II guns isnt a bright idea as they are considered one of the high up things to train for"
Circular reasoning ftw -- "we should keep these skills a high up thing to train for, because they're considered a high up thing to train for" -.o
If the point is to keep training times long enough to preserve lengths of people e-peens, why not uncouple the specializations and simply bump the ranks on the base turret skills?
Have the large turret take 60 days for required lvl.5 instead of 30 and be done with it...
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Katsumoto
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Posted - 2005.09.02 15:37:00 -
[35]
 Not Signed
Originally by: 13thDragon
I disagree, T2 large guns are supposed to be elite and take a long time to train and take some effort to get. Reduce the skills everyone will have them and not just the people who want to specialise in one weapon/ship.
If you really want Large T2 Turrets / Launchers you have to take the time to train them.
Just my point of view
Absolutely correct, and lets face it, it aint gonna change now because so many people have put the time in to train for large t2 guns, and just because you want to train for them but dont want to spend months skill training you start trying to pursuade the devs to reduce the requirements. Just train for them and stop whining. If the requirements are reduced then thats not really specialisation is it?
Force Of Evil
[email protected]
"If i was in world war two they'd call me spitfire." |
j0sephine
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Posted - 2005.09.02 15:49:00 -
[36]
"Training for large guns is just like training for a battleship. You want to fly the battleship but you have to train frigates and cruisers up before you get there."
No; specialization training is quite different from base ship and turret training, because none of these base skills have lvl.5 pre-requisites.
In order for these trainings to be indeed similar, battleship skill would have to require cruiser lvl.5, and cruiser skill would in turn require frigate lvl.5 ... and large turrets should require medium turrets 5, while medium turrets would require small turrets at lvl.5
... but something tells me there's plenty battleship pilots out there who are quite happy they were allowed to get into their ship of choice with cruiser and frigate skills at lvl.4, and small and medium gun skills at lvl.3 ... and never bothered to train it further.
(until they desired a switch to interceptor or assault cruiser, or started working on their 'specializations', anyway
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Katsumoto
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Posted - 2005.09.02 15:51:00 -
[37]
Yes but what i am saying is you cannot just train the battleship skill straight off just because you want to fly a battleship, just like t2 large turrets.
Force Of Evil
[email protected]
"If i was in world war two they'd call me spitfire." |
j0sephine
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Posted - 2005.09.02 15:56:00 -
[38]
Edited by: j0sephine on 02/09/2005 15:56:07
"Yes but what i am saying is you cannot just train the battleship skill straight off just because you want to fly a battleship, just like t2 large turrets."
I understand; what i'm saying it, unlike the turret specializations you don't need to be expert in flying both frigates and cruisers, before you're allowed to get that battleship skills.
It's that being expert in the stuff you don't need part of the requirements that's ill thought-out, imo...
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Katsumoto
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Posted - 2005.09.02 16:01:00 -
[39]
yeah i see where your coming from, but i doubt now ccp will change it after so long. If this thread was here closer to when the skills and t2 turrets were realeased then the change may have happened. But ccp never ceases to amaze me.
Force Of Evil
[email protected]
"If i was in world war two they'd call me spitfire." |
Slater Dogstar
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Posted - 2005.09.02 16:11:00 -
[40]
Well i would like to start by saying gret game. Ive only been playing it for 8 days and the sheer scope of eve is almost mindblowing, So just on this allone i feel ccp did great.
Now thats out of the way to the topic at hand.
Personally i feel it should stay as it it is for several reasons to begine with tech 2 guns are the best around so shoud be a long term commitment also the time taken to get the skills also lets us newbs LEARN how to use them properly.
If tech 2 needed less skills it wont seem so special anymore, i do agree that there are a lot of skills to learn for a tech 2 larg gun but in the end it is worth it in the long run im sure.
Besides the skills you need to learn are usefull for more than tech 2 as ther give a blanket upgrade to all wepons of that size i.e. medium specialisation affects all medium guns of that type.
Every Time You Use A Warp Stab Ovyer Kills A Puppy!!! |
j0sephine
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Posted - 2005.09.02 16:12:00 -
[41]
"yeah i see where your coming from, but i doubt now ccp will change it after so long."
Aye, not really likely now ^^;;
was thinking about it some more, and i figure it'd perhaps work better if this particular skill tree went more like:
rather than medium specialization requiring the small spec, and large spec requiring the medium one, there's a 'generic' weapon-type related skill. Let's say it's called "Advanced <weapon type> theory" and it's high rank skill. then you can have specializations go like:
small hybrid turret 5 -> advanced bybrid theory 3 -> small specializations for railgun/blaster
medium hybrid turret 5 -> advanced hybrid theory 4 -> medium specializations for railgun/blaster
large hybrid turret 5 -> advanced hybrid theory 5 -> large specializations for railgun/blaster
... similar for other turret types. This way it'd still take significant amount of time to reach the tech.2 skills, but at the same time you could actually specialize in frigate/cruiser/battleship weapons separately...
oh well. --;;
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capt
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Posted - 2005.09.02 16:26:00 -
[42]
Maybe I didn't read all post too carefully, but I think I didn't see anyone saying that to use large guns(any non t2) you need to have small and medium guns skills trained up to a certain level.
Logic dictates that it should work the same for the specialisation skills. If you want to use the big ones, then you have to learn how to use the smaller ones too........
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Slater Dogstar
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Posted - 2005.09.02 16:37:00 -
[43]
Originally by: capt
Maybe I didn't read all post too carefully, but I think I didn't see anyone saying that to use large guns(any non t2) you need to have small and medium guns skills trained up to a certain level.
Logic dictates that it should work the same for the specialisation skills. If you want to use the big ones, then you have to learn how to use the smaller ones too........
Yea thats how i see it too.
Every Time You Use A Warp Stab Ovyer Kills A Puppy!!! |
j0sephine
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Posted - 2005.09.02 16:47:00 -
[44]
"Maybe I didn't read all post too carefully, but I think I didn't see anyone saying that to use large guns(any non t2) you need to have small and medium guns skills trained up to a certain level."
Katsumoto said it a few posts above ^^
The counter-point is the bold part itself -- large guns require medium and small ones trained up to certain point, not all the way up to absolute expertise. Specializations skills on the other hand, do. While the basic similarity is there, the increase of requirements might've been pushed in the wrong direction, limiting the number of possible specialization areas to just the basic few.
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Severe McCald
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Posted - 2005.09.02 16:49:00 -
[45]
I repeat, I see no reason why CCP should abandon its small > med > large progression, but why does a new char have to learn small obsolete tech 1 > med obsolete tech 1 > large obsolete tech 1 b4 moving on to small current tech?
It is silly and undermines the game's ability to attract new players in the future.
It is all very well saying that you had to do it (so did I), but will the same apply to tech 3, tech 4 and ... well we wont get there. There will be insufficient new blood coming into the game if the poor sods have to train for two years plus to become competitive.
Sev
To err is human, to forgive divan. |
Weirda
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Posted - 2005.09.02 17:04:00 -
[46]
weirda think that it should remain as it is. why?
it should take as long as it does (or longer) to use the t2 guns. however achieved (that was a nice idea about a generic weapon specilization skill btw j0), anything that keep people from doing max possible damage fastest is good. t1 variants (albeit very expensive ones) that have the same base damage as the t2 ('scout'/'arbalast'), and lower fitting requirement already exist to close the gap on damage potential. not to mention, one or two well placed mods are already the equivalent of months of training (sensor booster/tracking comp/damage mods) if the person so choose to fit their ship that way.
anyhow - weirda is opposed to changing the way it is now, unless a way to balance out and make the training time equivalent is there. the nice thing about way skills currently are (to elve sorrow's sorrow) is that you actualy get something useful out of the prereqs, whereas with a single high rank skill (like j0 recommend), it is doubtful you would get as much benefit from that skill. 
weirda have small/med/large specialization for both lasers and projectile - and while it took long time, am very happy that have both, as well as all the skills that come with it (especially since much like elve, weirda spend most time in frigates, and prefer that battle style over others).
anyhow... that is weirda 20isk on the matter...
--
Thread Killer
(attempting to train verbosity from 4 back down to 1)
<END TRANSMISSION> |
j0sephine
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Posted - 2005.09.02 17:17:00 -
[47]
"the nice thing about way skills currently are (to elve sorrow's sorrow) is that you actualy get something useful out of the prereqs, whereas with a single high rank skill (like j0 recommend), it is doubtful you would get as much benefit from that skill. "
Well, i figure the nice thing about this generic skill is, there could be any sort of bonus tied to it, that'd apply to all weapons of that particular type (be it faster rof, better tracking, range, less cap use, better fitting reqirements, whatever) ... this way it'd have noticeable effect for anyone who trained any version of the specialization, as opposed to current way where the battleship pilots don't really get any practical benefit from having specializations in both small and middle turrets... unless they also fly ships that utilize these weapons.
I can see how people who do fly mixed ship sizes could prefer it being the current way, though ^^ as it makes no difference to them since they'd want to train all these separate specializations anyway...
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Miri Tirzan
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Posted - 2005.09.02 18:07:00 -
[48]
I have to agree, having already put the time in to get to large turret specialization for both beam and pulse, I do not want to see it changed now for everyone else.
svetlana - "whining gets you stuff. that is why humans got to the top of the food chain and all the other animals got nerfed."
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Kyle Chimko
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Posted - 2005.09.02 19:30:00 -
[49]
yeah your right we shouldnt have to train skills in a certain order to get what we want. it should be that if i want a battle ship i should only train the battleship skill as obviously a battleship has nothing to do with cruiser or frigate skills.
the way the skills are setup for tech 2 weapons are fine in my opinion
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Jet Collins
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Posted - 2005.09.02 19:34:00 -
[50]
NOT signed. Not only would it not be fait to the people who have already trained them all just to use the large as said it would not be a specialty which it is and should say. IF you want to me a marksman train to be one you can;t half as*
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Weirda
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Posted - 2005.09.02 20:10:00 -
[51]
Edited by: Weirda on 02/09/2005 20:10:16
Originally by: j0sephine
I can see how people who do fly mixed ship sizes could prefer it being the current way, though ^^ as it makes no difference to them since they'd want to train all these separate specializations anyway...
you just summed weirda up perfectly tbh... guess it just selfishness that want no change... see battleship specialization only as necessary evil to augment other skills and the other specialization would have been trained up anyways.
a good side effect though (wanted or not) is that BS pilots will have the skills and opportunity to fly the other classes with weapon specialization (or downsize their weapon and still get good guns). this is good because a lot of the bickering that go on in forum is 'grass greener' syndrom where different classes of pilots don't have the practical experience for the assumptions that they throw out of what it's like to fly the other classes (you will often see 'they want everyone in BS' comming from frig pilot, and 'they want everyone in frigs' coming from bs pilot). go figure...
not signed...
--
Thread Killer
(attempting to train verbosity from 4 back down to 1)
<END TRANSMISSION> |
Voltron
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Posted - 2005.09.02 20:23:00 -
[52]
Large T2 guns definately need to remain as is. Yes they take alot of time to train for, but the reward is pretty good once you do. You don't want to put the time in, live with named T1 guns.
Volt
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DrunkenOne
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Posted - 2005.09.02 20:26:00 -
[53]
It makes perfect sense to me. People are trying to use RL comparisons, "oh if u wanna fly a bs it doesnt make sense fo fly a frig and cruiser!!!"
Does a new navy recruit get to be in command of an aircraft carrier? Is the first gun you ever shot a bazooka?
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Elve Sorrow
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Posted - 2005.09.02 20:30:00 -
[54]
Edited by: Elve Sorrow on 02/09/2005 20:31:27
No, ofcourse its not. But you dont specialise in both guns, machineguns and bazookas either do you? Nor can a navy pilot fly both fighterpilots and civilian transport thingies.
But RL dont have stuff to do with EVE tbh.
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Fiddlestx
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Posted - 2005.09.02 21:01:00 -
[55]
Edited by: Fiddlestx on 02/09/2005 21:02:52
Edited by: Fiddlestx on 02/09/2005 21:02:05
It makes perfect sense. It's a natural progression as you play eve. You start small and move on to bigger things. In a few days, I'll have been playing a year. When I first started there were things that I saw and heard about that amazed me making me feel as though It would take forever to get there myself. Now that I'm starting to get more and more T2 abilities, it still gives me a sense of acomplishment when I finish that long training that I have been working at for ages it seems.
If you remove that natural progression you'll be cutting those who have been playing for a long time off at the knees. They will lose any sense of accomplishment that they had. T2 distinguishes those who have been playing for a long time from those who are just starting. Don't nerf it, just suck it up and train up for it. It's good the way it is, without the ability to progress over time eve would not be what it is.
Just my .02isk,
Fiddlestx
"To secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands... the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself."
Sun Tsu
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Meridius
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Posted - 2005.09.02 21:06:00 -
[56]
Not signed. The longer it takes for people to get into large t2 turrets the better.
That and it wouldn't be fair to the people who have already trained small + medium for large.
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Drutort
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Posted - 2005.09.02 22:30:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Azuriel Talloth
I agree, it's not the turret skills that are the problem, it's that the missile users have it too easy.
hmm the problem is that some ships have tur/launcher ratio's
those pilots would get really gimped as they would have to train 2 areas in spec... to use all there high slots...
either make missiles skills same as tur AND give those other battleships the option of more tur slots so that they could use all there high's with guns and not have to worry about launchers.
they have to do one or the other... otherwise all those ships that have ratio in the high slots... are going to be quite upset... not to mention all minmatar pilots for sure
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Severe McCald
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Posted - 2005.09.02 22:45:00 -
[58]
The reasons given for keeping it like it is, are that it would be a slap in the face for those who spent so long training old tech to get to tech 2.
Bollox. Introducing new skills to do what we always could do before they introduced the new skills, that was a slap in the face.
Taking steps to avoid this game becoming a ghetto; that is just sensible. When we learnt tech 1, tech 2 didn't exist. Of course we had to learn tech 1. It doesn't follow that it should be a prereq. for tech 2.
Never mind your own special interest in maintaining an advantage (you already have that with advanced learning skills). It cannot be right that someone starting in Jan 2006 will have to train until sometime in late 2007 to catch up and be in the same ballpark as older players.
Sev
To err is human, to forgive divan. |
Drutort
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Posted - 2005.09.02 22:52:00 -
[59]
Why couldnĘt Tech2 fallow the logic of tech1? In the ranks? Or similar? Just with different ranks for the skills (like a few others have mentioned here already)
Make
S lvl3 >> S specialization
M specialization >> M lvl3 + S specialization lvl3
L specialization >> L lvl3 + M specialization lvl3
And the only thing that should change is the rank on the specialization skillsą that way you can move through the chain to your desired size gun quicker but the true specialization would require you to train lvl4 or 5ą the specialization should be within its skills not in the old tech1
The above can be even done with lvl2 and just much higher ranks of the specialization skills that wayą to be of any use in the specialization size level you would have to train it to lvl4-5 to gain more then just the 2-4% from the lvl1-2
But instead we have these lvl5 tech1 and lvl4 specialization requirements which are stupid IMOą because you will fly one type of ship with 90% of the sized ships gunsą so you wouldnĘt be too considered with the specialization of the lower sized guns.
( I didnĘt put the requirements of the other gunnery skillsą which I think are good and they should stay the same)
oh and for those who say slapped in the face for the past changes... hmm do you guys forget this is a MMO? things always change... just look at how things have changed... at the start of the game BS were king... all other ships were almost useless, just stepping stones... now people have so many new skills and options and specializations... that you really cant complain about changes to skill requirements...
because most likely you would still fly once in a while different ship size... and you already have the skills...
the only difference here is that things would get rearranged but the time to train could still be pretty closely done, just by modifying the ranks of the spec skills.
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DarthJosh
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Posted - 2005.09.03 00:19:00 -
[60]
Just leave this topic alone, it is a redundant point which no one feels strongly enough about to warrant change.
Good things come to those who wait.....so wait....You cant start the game and expect the biggest and best stuff off the bat. You want that go play WoW.
Someone highlighted an idea the other day suggesting that characters start with say 5million sp and are then given a boost.
You cant expect someone who is a month old to compare to someone 2 years old.
Its EVE's real time skill training that makes the game what it is...nothing feels better than finishing off a large turret or cruiser skill and knowing your only 1 skill away from something new...
Find something else to pick at please , this is fine how it is...
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Litus Arowar
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Posted - 2005.09.03 02:10:00 -
[61]
if you're looking for precedent, look at heavy assault ships... you're required to train assault ships to level 4 before you can move on to HAC... though it doesn't require assault ship 5, it's still a different class, and an entirely different role, the only thing binding them is the fact that they're both high-resistence high-damage ship that rival T1 ships of a higher class...
personally I think that the system is fine as is, and that the complaints stem from people trying to do way too many things all at once... you shouldn't even be thinking about tech 2 large weapons unless you're ready to take the time to get there... wether this done in the way it's currently done, or by adding a new hard-to-train skill that allows specialization as j0 suggested is irrelevant... it will and should take a long time
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Atlquotl
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Posted - 2005.09.03 11:20:00 -
[62]
Last post about the heavy assaults etc is a valid point, although wasn't it kind of the other way around (assaults came after t2 weapons, precedent wise?) Anyway, Most of us are going to want to use the assault/heavies later on, if only just for fun and something new. Forcing the training while not enjoyable, will give us far more practice with our new ships, so that by the time we can use the high level equipment, we can use it well, and as a bonus we'll be able to use high level equipment for the assaults and heavies. I agree that it may have been a touch better if they'd only required level 4 instead of 5, but I fully intend on training everything I need to be able to use large t2 blasters one way or the other, and if it means being good at small/mediums for assaults, so much the better.
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madaluap
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Posted - 2005.09.03 13:24:00 -
[63]
tech 2 large guns arent for noobs, dont remove this link, its not more than normal. check out the skills you need for a normal bs sized gun, its lvl 3. so tech 2 needs lvl 5, dont see the problem.
also i want to fly a bs without having to train for frig or cruiser? thats just bad mmkay..but its exactly the same.
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Dryxonedes Sae
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Posted - 2005.09.03 18:17:00 -
[64]
I disagree aswell. It 'appears' to me atleast that someone had it right with CCP hadn't intended specialisations to be size-type set, rather being soley type. It's good the way it is, get your T2 small guns, learn more about how to fight with the type of weapon while the ships/modules are still at their cheapest. Graduate to mediums, now you've got more firepower, more range, but more to lose. Once you've "mastered" the art of playing with the mediums, it's time for big boys toys... Could it be that those who are calling for a change to make large T2's availiable only want to be able to gate gank with a battleship without having to expend much effort? I'm only heading for medium hybrid spec now myself, but i'd still disagree with any change, it's currently the "logical" progression.
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Warm0nger
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Posted - 2005.09.04 11:34:00 -
[65]
I put my time in and trained for large specialization. Everyone who doesn't have the skill, get to the back of the line!!!
not signed
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Eve Spawn Grounds
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MEBHansen
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Posted - 2005.09.04 13:50:00 -
[66]
Not signed...
I reckon it¦s kind of like in the millitary.
I learned to use small guns first(9mm), before I learned how to use larger guns like 5.56mm and 7.62mm LMG. The AT4 being the large weapon i learned last. This is great, since large weapons are not allways the best choice, for any given mission...
Do I make sense, or is it sunday yet?
Or how about this comparrison..: You have to learn how to drive a truck, before you learn how to equip/use the trailor? No? okay, i give up...
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Cilppiz
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Posted - 2005.09.04 14:29:00 -
[67]
It would take a 70 days to learn large t2 artys (med and large projectiles from 4 to 5 and sharpshootter to lvl5) but I dont nag about it, good things are worth of waiting and Ill just use mods I can use and dream about those 1400mm t2's. Its good to have skills that take ages to learn and also skills that you can read in day or week.
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KilROCK
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Posted - 2005.09.04 14:32:00 -
[68]
Yea right.. then remove all the links to fly a damned dreadnaught? Hey i don't want to train all the damned skills to 4/5 because i'm too good for it, get me the Dreadnought after 30 days of training so i can skip all the rest. Said the lazy ass who made the topic.
TRAIN YOUR SKILLS LIKE EVERYONE.
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ELECTR0FREAK
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Posted - 2005.09.04 17:04:00 -
[69]
... NO.
Why don't we just give everyone lvl 5 in all skills with the next patch?
-Electrofreak
Discoverer of the Missile Damage Formula |
Slater Dogstar
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Posted - 2005.09.04 17:11:00 -
[70]
NO WAY
the origonal posters idea is bad because its like digging a well from the bottom uppwards....Makes no sence.
Every Time You Use A Warp Stab Ovyer Kills A Puppy!!! |
Hllaxiu
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Posted - 2005.09.04 19:35:00 -
[71]
Originally by: j0sephine
"yeah i see where your coming from, but i doubt now ccp will change it after so long."
Aye, not really likely now ^^;;
was thinking about it some more, and i figure it'd perhaps work better if this particular skill tree went more like:
rather than medium specialization requiring the small spec, and large spec requiring the medium one, there's a 'generic' weapon-type related skill. Let's say it's called "Advanced <weapon type> theory" and it's high rank skill. then you can have specializations go like:
small hybrid turret 5 -> advanced bybrid theory 3 -> small specializations for railgun/blaster
medium hybrid turret 5 -> advanced hybrid theory 4 -> medium specializations for railgun/blaster
large hybrid turret 5 -> advanced hybrid theory 5 -> large specializations for railgun/blaster
... similar for other turret types. This way it'd still take significant amount of time to reach the tech.2 skills, but at the same time you could actually specialize in frigate/cruiser/battleship weapons separately...
oh well. --;;
Tech 3 better be this. Just to be annoying, the stuff is different and requires knowledge of different stuff. So say, to use a tech 3 railgun that uses armor piercing shells and deals 80% of the damage of tech 1 you need some science skills that represent an understanding of the physics of it. With tech 3 different corps can research different parts of the gun at their tower facilities. Say you get your 425mm blue print start researching some em effects - like say, 10% sensor dampening or something + the ammo doing something else - but you need sensor dampening 5 and electronics engineering 4 (is that what its called in game?) to use it or something like that. Would be rather nifty imho.
Proud member of Elite Academy. |
Shai Faetal
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Posted - 2005.09.04 23:44:00 -
[72]
Edited by: Shai Faetal on 04/09/2005 23:45:04
Originally by: MacDuncan
Nooooo....just a few days left 'til T2 1400s....leave them alone....if i had to train them, all those others should train them as well...
Believe me:
You'll need all those other specs as well...
what he said :D
hmm the thought of 3 month old players in tempest fitted wth t2 1400mm instapopping everyone just crossed my minds
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meh. go away |
Simon Danger
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Posted - 2005.09.05 00:25:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Litus Arowar
if you're looking for precedent, look at heavy assault ships... you're required to train assault ships to level 4 before you can move on to HAC... though it doesn't require assault ship 5, it's still a different class, and an entirely different role, the only thing binding them is the fact that they're both high-resistence high-damage ship that rival T1 ships of a higher class...
personally I think that the system is fine as is, and that the complaints stem from people trying to do way too many things all at once... you shouldn't even be thinking about tech 2 large weapons unless you're ready to take the time to get there... wether this done in the way it's currently done, or by adding a new hard-to-train skill that allows specialization as j0 suggested is irrelevant... it will and should take a long time
Since the Assault Ships skill doesn't require any frigate skills to train, this is more on a par with knowing your way around the smaller before taking on the higher (as in frigate 4 -> cruiser 1). The important thing about HACs is that they do NOT require Frigate 5 to fly, only Cruiser 5.
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pardux
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Posted - 2005.09.05 00:49:00 -
[74]
not signed.
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MrMorph
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Posted - 2005.09.05 22:25:00 -
[75]
Is this the office where I can sign up on the "OMFG I HAVE TO TRAIN SOMETHING B4 I CAN OWN!" group ?
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Sangxianc
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Posted - 2005.09.05 22:39:00 -
[76]
The problem I have with it is the same as Elve's. It means people who actually specialise in smaller ship classes suck. And I specialise in smaller ship classes!
I hate sucking :<
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Do not deny yourself experience of that which lies beyond, behind the sun, in the world they call unpeopled. |
Shalnar
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Posted - 2005.09.05 22:57:00 -
[77]
Not signed.
If this link is removed then you will see more and more players training all large guns to spec. That means you'll get more people flying around in apocs with tech2 projectiles. To me this isn't specializing. 'Racial' spec should always take priority over 'size' spec. If anything the missile specialization should be changed. I think it's silly that you can train cruise spec before having rapid launch at lvl5
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Sean Drake
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Posted - 2005.09.05 23:02:00 -
[78]
I hate to say this but this seems to be the 1000000th argument I have seen on here about new players catching up to the more experinced players. Except the fact that this is not WoW or eq2 you cannot grind your way to uber power and then move on suck it up and train the skills like the rest of us.
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Solar Sailor
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Posted - 2005.09.06 08:06:00 -
[79]
Originally by: KilROCK
Yea right.. then remove all the links to fly a damned dreadnaught? Hey i don't want to train all the damned skills to 4/5 because i'm too good for it, get me the Dreadnought after 30 days of training so i can skip all the rest. Said the lazy ass who made the topic.
TRAIN YOUR SKILLS LIKE EVERYONE.
Dread is tech 1 theres not even any comparison.
Keep the Tech 1 skills chain linked, but remove it for Tech 2 and beyond.
I am new so have decided to concentrate on frigates as it looks fast enough, and with decent skills I can compete with older players. If someone wants to concentrate on Medium/Large guns, they should not HAVE to learn Small/Medium Spec.
This will, at least, make my choice worth something
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Flash Landsraad
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Posted - 2005.09.06 08:28:00 -
[80]
Originally by: Admiral IceBlock
ccp want us to specialize right? so how come if i want to specialize in battleships i first have to specialize in frigates and crusiers before coming to battleship specilizaton? it doesnt make any sence really...
but then again ccp isnt known to make any sence at all!
No - just think about this and stop being ignorant.
You can't go straight to the larger ships - that would be stupid. You have to learn how to use smaller things before you can get on to learning the large things in any kind of situation.
What you just said is like saying - 'I just joined the Navy a few days ago and said I wanted to captain an aircraft carrier but they only put me as a regular crew mate - how stupid is that!?'
I think you need to think of what you are saying before you say it mate - not xKillaH.
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