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Seven Koskanaiken
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
124
   |
Posted - 2013.03.27 22:18:00 -
[1] - Quote
i was doing the questionaire for CSM and there's this question
Quote:Caldari jamming is an unfair mechanic that cannot be balanced in it's current form and should be changed entirely.
ok how is it unfair
- if you see blackbirds then damp it or just avoid fighting people who bring blackbirds
- someone can bring in falcon to a solo but they can also bring in any other ship to win the fight as well so that's not a problem with ecm per say
- if someone fits ecm to a nonecm ships well, bad luck, you were too easily led by prejudice on popular fits
it's already balanced by the stupid probability stuff and anti ecm skills, what more do people want? personally i think it should go to points so you know ahead of time what ships to engage, to balance it with all other ewars which are just as annoying if not more so. |
Unsuccessful At Everything
The Troll Bridge
2956
|
Posted - 2013.03.27 22:27:00 -
[2] - Quote
Seven Koskanaiken wrote:i was doing the questionaire for CSM and there's this question Quote:Caldari jamming is an unfair mechanic that cannot be balanced in it's current form and should be changed entirely.
That wasnt a question. It was a statement.
Questions are usually notated by a question mark (?) at the end, which indicates a question was asked.
This statement has a period (.) at the end which indicates it was not a question.
You are answering a question that was never asked.
Your arguement is invalid.
Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings? |
Pepper Mind
Spicy Enterprises
18
|
Posted - 2013.03.27 22:27:00 -
[3] - Quote
Jamming |
Jill Xelitras
Xeltec services
Russian International Allegiance
102
|
Posted - 2013.03.27 22:39:00 -
[4] - Quote
ECM: Best way to disrupt logistics.
take ECM out of the game and you'll have people crying how OP logistics are.
I would say: fix drone interface, increase either drone bay size or drone durability and let's continue shooting Blackbirds with our drones 
... or make F.O.F.s home in on ships using ECM modules. Now that would be fun  .
EVE Racing (resuscitation efforts ongoing)
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=215860&find=unread |
Scatim Helicon
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
1762
|
Posted - 2013.03.27 22:49:00 -
[5] - Quote
Various incremental nerfs to ECM have put it pretty close to balanced, if anything it only needs a few minor tweaks at this stage.
Titans were never meant to be "cost effective", its a huge ****.-á- CCP Oveur, 2006
~If you want a picture of the future of WiS, imagine a spaceship, stamping on an avatar's face. Forever. |
Klown Walk
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
203
|
Posted - 2013.03.27 23:04:00 -
[6] - Quote
Remove ecm drones, lower the ecm range and allow for atleast 1 lock even when jammed. |
YuuKnow
Terra-Formers
688
|
Posted - 2013.03.28 01:36:00 -
[7] - Quote
Here are some considerations to 'balance' jamming.
1) remove the ability of the jammer to instantly tell if his jam was sucessful. Make it so that they know that the jammer if on, but can't instantly see if the jam was effective or not. That ambiguity alone will have an effect on how and when he/she can spread their jammers and make them less effective.
2) Consider making the jammers a defense module only. So that only the jamming ship is the ship that can't be targeted.
3) remove the 'jamming specialist', so that perma-jamming won't be so easy to obtain.
yk |
Abrazzar
Vardaugas Family
1172
|
Posted - 2013.03.28 01:44:00 -
[8] - Quote
Make it no longer chance based but simply have every jammer on the target reduce sensor strength and once no sensor strength is left, it's jammed. This will also make the maths behind balancing them much more easy.
Mining Overhaul
Nothing changed since 2008. |
RubyPorto
SniggWaffe
YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
3067
|
Posted - 2013.03.28 04:20:00 -
[9] - Quote
Abrazzar wrote:Make it no longer chance based but simply have every jammer on the target reduce sensor strength and once no sensor strength is left, it's jammed. This will also make the maths behind balancing them much more easy.
So what you're saying is you want "permajamming" to become actual reality, not just a thing people whine about when they die in less than a Jam cycle?
Situation:
250 man fleet with 0 Logi and 1 Amarr/1 Minmatar Jammer in the midslots
vs
250 man fleet with 20 Logi
Result:
250 DPS Ships
vs
230 DPS Ships and 20 Permajammed Logi (The equivalent of 16 Racial EWAR modules should probably be able to Jam out any ship, or ECM is entirely worthless in your on-or-off proposal, as Sensor strength doesn't do anything significant in a fight other than protect you from ECM).
Who's going to win that fight?
This is EVE - Everybody Versus Everybody.
"the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP)." -CCP Solomon |
Abrazzar
Vardaugas Family
1174
|
Posted - 2013.03.28 05:06:00 -
[10] - Quote
You just pulled both a scenario and numbers out of your ass to create a counterargument.
Congratulations. I am beaten. I can only surrender to this.
Mining Overhaul
Nothing changed since 2008. |
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
2521
|
Posted - 2013.03.28 05:39:00 -
[11] - Quote
If ECM was considered a way of tanking, it would get the balance hammer.
|
Jack Miton
Aperture Harmonics
K162
1553
|
Posted - 2013.03.28 05:41:00 -
[12] - Quote
A message to all ECM users in the words of principle Vernon:
"ThatGÇÖs what I thought. YouGÇÖre a gutless turd."
|
Tub Chil
Last Men Standing
43
|
Posted - 2013.03.28 06:01:00 -
[13] - Quote
ECM is like a heavy hammer, if you hit your enemy dies, if you miss most likely you won't have a second chance.
permajamming sucks:
http://caldari.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=16710949
What you don't see on this KM is that there was a thrasher also jammed
as much as being tracking disrupted sucks:
http://caldari.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=16710616
as much as dampening sucks:
http://caldari.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=16983277
I suppose it's not hard to see a trend here. |
Diesel47
Bad Men Ltd.
576
|
Posted - 2013.03.28 06:35:00 -
[14] - Quote
None of those links work...
If you get TD'd, you can still shoot back or scram/web somebody to escape, or use energy neutralizers to free yourself from a tackler. Etc.
If you get sensor damped, you either are too far away to be in danger... Or you need to man up and get closer. At the very least you can deal with tacklers.
When you get jammed, there is nothing you can do to counter it. All your offensive modules become worthless (besides smartbombs). And you just die.
Clearly a terrible mechanic.
|
Tub Chil
Last Men Standing
43
|
Posted - 2013.03.28 06:45:00 -
[15] - Quote
Diesel47 wrote:None of those links work... If you get TD'd, you can still shoot back or scram/web somebody to escape, or use energy neutralizers to free yourself from a tackler. Etc. If you get sensor damped, you either are too far away to be in danger... Or you need to man up and get closer. At the very least you can deal with tacklers. When you get jammed, there is nothing you can do to counter it. All your offensive modules become worthless (besides smartbombs). And you just die. Clearly a terrible mechanic.
all of links work copy and paste them
and no, unless attacker is ******** you can't do those things that you said. you will be locked out of fight one way or another. |
Ra'Shyne Viper
Dissident Aggressors
Mordus Angels
63
|
Posted - 2013.03.28 06:49:00 -
[16] - Quote
i swear if they do anything other than reduce the jamming timer i will literally start a new petition everyday asking for my ECM SP reimbursed
DUST 514 player
Ingame name: Vin Vicious |
Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
1260
|
Posted - 2013.03.28 06:56:00 -
[17] - Quote
ECM should be removed anyways. Since its been added it has made other electronic warfare measures redundant.
Don't Vote for Malcanis
New Eden Training Simulation. -áIdea to improve NPE. |
Calathorn Virpio
ZionTCD
Legacy Rising
28
|
Posted - 2013.03.28 07:05:00 -
[18] - Quote
too OP, CCP would never allow it
CCP are the French
gate camping=/=PVP
everything else is fair game |
Calathorn Virpio
ZionTCD
Legacy Rising
28
|
Posted - 2013.03.28 07:08:00 -
[19] - Quote
so, people want to nerf ECM now too? how much more do the caldari need to get shafted?
CCP are the French
gate camping=/=PVP
everything else is fair game |
Destination SkillQueue
Are We There Yet
4789
|
Posted - 2013.03.28 07:32:00 -
[20] - Quote
Calathorn Virpio wrote:so, people want to nerf ECM now too? how much more do the caldari need to get shafted?
They want the mechanics changed because it's fairly terrible from a gameplay perspective. Meaning it's a binary chance based system and if it succeeds, the gameplay largely ends for the jammed person. Whether the end result of that change is a buff or a nerf to overall ECM effectiveness is a secondary matter. |
Marlona Sky
D00M.
Northern Coalition.
3265
|
Posted - 2013.03.28 07:47:00 -
[21] - Quote
ECM does not offer good counter play. See this video for understanding what counter play is.
Remove local, structure mails and revamp the directional scanner! |
Arronicus
vintas industries
Mistakes Were Made.
460
|
Posted - 2013.03.28 08:07:00 -
[22] - Quote
Klown Walk wrote:Remove ecm drones, lower the ecm range and allow for atleast 1 lock even when jammed.
Yes. And allow for warp to only planets and moons while warp disrupted. And allow for targeting of some ships past the dampened range while sensor damped. Oh, also, lets allow guns to fire sometimes with full tracking, when tracking disrupted. Oh, and stasis webified ships should fly full speed when only 1 web is on them.
Your idea to allow 1 lock when jammed completely defeats the purpose of jamming anyone except a logi, and even then, logi will work just fine. |
Dave Stark
2244
|
Posted - 2013.03.28 08:23:00 -
[23] - Quote
the entire issue with jamming is it's based on an RNG system, which isn't fun for any one.
even more so when the RNG is basically a coin flip saying "do you get a chance to play?"
then again, short of removing it i'm not sure that there's much that can be done with ECM.
Want miners to move from high sec to null sec?
Then give them a reason to join player corps, and stop null sec grav sites being worth less isk/hour than high sec asteroid belts.
Really isn't difficult. |
Tub Chil
Last Men Standing
43
|
Posted - 2013.03.28 08:42:00 -
[24] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:which isn't fun for any one.
it's fun for jammer. you should jam more.
Dave Stark wrote: basically a coin flip saying "do you get a chance to play?"
If games based on random chance were bad, card games would not be popular and everyone would play chess.
Dave Stark wrote:
then again, short of removing it i'm not sure that there's much that can be done with ECM.
give signature reduction bonus to anti-ecm modules. |
RubyPorto
SniggWaffe
YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
3075
|
Posted - 2013.03.28 14:21:00 -
[25] - Quote
Abrazzar wrote:You just pulled both a scenario and numbers out of your ass to create a counterargument.
Congratulations. I am beaten. I can only surrender to this.
If I'm designing a fleet composition and I see a way to guarantee that I nullify any reasonable proportion of logistics ships at little-to no cost to myself (since I can nullify a bunch of DPS in the absence of Logi), what possible reason do I have to not do so?
In other words, why would that situation not happen under your proposal?
This is EVE - Everybody Versus Everybody.
"the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP)." -CCP Solomon |
Abrazzar
Vardaugas Family
1176
|
Posted - 2013.03.28 14:35:00 -
[26] - Quote
RubyPorto wrote:Abrazzar wrote:You just pulled both a scenario and numbers out of your ass to create a counterargument.
Congratulations. I am beaten. I can only surrender to this. If I'm designing a fleet composition and I see a way to guarantee that I nullify any reasonable proportion of logistics ships at little-to no cost to myself (since I can nullify a bunch of DPS in the absence of Logi), what possible reason do I have to not do so? In other words, why would that situation not happen under your proposal?
Because you made up jam strength numbers where none were given.
Mining Overhaul
Nothing changed since 2008. |
Haulie Berry
301
|
Posted - 2013.03.28 15:00:00 -
[27] - Quote
Abrazzar wrote:
Because you made up jam strength numbers where none were given.
They don't have to be explicitly given.
It's pretty easy to bound some ballpark values in this case. It's implicit that the jam strength has to be high enough to make the module useful.
From there, it's not hard to extrapolate a reasonable hypothetical scenario.
If anything, Ruby was being extremely conservative in assuming that it would take 12.5 ECM to jam out a single ship. |
RubyPorto
SniggWaffe
YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
3076
|
Posted - 2013.03.28 15:05:00 -
[28] - Quote
Abrazzar wrote:Because you made up jam strength numbers where none were given.
Should 12 Racial jammers (not 12 strength, 12 modules aka 2 Falcons) be able to jam out a single ship under your proposal?
If not, what use is ECM under your proposal?
This is EVE - Everybody Versus Everybody.
"the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP)." -CCP Solomon |
Abrazzar
Vardaugas Family
1177
|
Posted - 2013.03.28 15:21:00 -
[29] - Quote
RubyPorto wrote:Abrazzar wrote:Because you made up jam strength numbers where none were given. Should 12 Racial jammers* (not 12 strength, 12 modules aka 2 Falcons) be able to jam out a single ship under your proposal? If so, my situation fits your proposal. If not, what use is ECM under your proposal? *Actually 16, if we assume the same 1:3 ratio of off-race to racial Jam strength, but who's counting.
So either it's overpowered or useless, with no middle ground possible. Alright. I'm done.
Mining Overhaul
Nothing changed since 2008. |
RubyPorto
SniggWaffe
YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
3076
|
Posted - 2013.03.28 15:26:00 -
[30] - Quote
Abrazzar wrote:RubyPorto wrote:Abrazzar wrote:Because you made up jam strength numbers where none were given. Should 12 Racial jammers* (not 12 strength, 12 modules aka 2 Falcons) be able to jam out a single ship under your proposal? If so, my situation fits your proposal. If not, what use is ECM under your proposal? *Actually 16, if we assume the same 1:3 ratio of off-race to racial Jam strength, but who's counting. So either it's overpowered or useless, with no middle ground possible. Alright. I'm done.
With your proposal, yes.
What can you do to your proposal to fix that, or can you find a third option?
This is EVE - Everybody Versus Everybody.
"the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP)." -CCP Solomon |
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