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Masu'di	Posted - 2005.09.15 10:33:00 - [31] Originally by: MoTHeR THuKKa What would happen if you went up to an Aircraft Carrier in the Atlantic with a fleet of five Speedboats + machine guns and started firing on them. You would get obliterated, even big ships have small guns. It is silly to think that in Eve 5 frigates can orbit a BS and not get killed. I would like to see Extra slots put on BS that are only for the use of Small and Medium Guns (or missiles). Firstly, last time i checked you don't get aircraft carriers or speed boats in Eve. So RL comparisons are pretty irrelevant. However, if that is what you believe Eve should be like, there are quite a few counter examples to your arguement Motor Torpedo Boat and Midget Submarines - just one or two examples of small fast and deadly craft that large battleships had difficulty defending against. bringing Es and Whizz to a station near you
RawCode	Posted - 2005.09.15 11:14:00 - [32] You do not think our US carriers are vulnerable to attacks from small ships? Well they are. And that is why they have a support group of around 15 ships to defend them. A carrier by itself is defenseless.
Tul 'Kas	Posted - 2005.09.15 17:43:00 - [33] Originally by: RawCode And that is why they have a support group of around 15 ships to defend them. Not to mention all those drones it can launch... ... er, aircraft, that is.
Parallax Error	Posted - 2005.09.15 17:50:00 - [34] Originally by: MoTHeR THuKKa YOU fail to see the lameness of blob tactics. A two year old player loses to 2 noobs? That is NOT balanced. Repeat after me 10 times: "This is not WoW, time played does not give me an automatic right to win against people who have played less than myself"
Derron Bel	Posted - 2005.09.15 17:51:00 - [35] While we're making that comparison, I think a general 'sunk' an aircraft carrier with small boats in war-games, oh, 2-3 years ago. Soooo... ;) -==- Holy-Jim> as you know, surprise is the key to victory.....surprise! LooseCannoN> ahh! LooseCannoN> my plans have been foiled!
Joerd Toastius	Posted - 2005.09.15 19:39:00 - [36] Mentioned that p1 :P
Darcon	Posted - 2005.09.15 20:52:00 - [37] For informational purposes: Iowa Class Battleship 1943: 9, 16 inch guns 20, 5 inch guns 80, 40mm guns 49, 20mm guns 1968: 9, 16 inch guns 20, 5 inch guns 1983: 9, 16 inch guns 12, 5 inch guns 4, 20mm anti air/missile (phalanx guns) 32, cruise missile (tomahawk) launchers 16, anti ship missile (harpoon) launchers Obviously those kinds of numbers would be a bit hard to implement in F1-F8. You could add a "gun cluster" module though. Takes the powergrid of a large (thus battleship only mount) but has the damage output, range, tracking of about half a dozen small guns. Kind of a Gatling Phalanx Point Defense Laser/Autocannon/Blaster. Risk vs. reward ratio is what needs to be preserved. Though a HAC vs. Battlehip fight might be about fair in cost terms, the T1 frigate pack killing a battleship is not even close. No risk to the frigs, all rewards for a fat gank.
Mercade	Posted - 2005.09.15 21:01:00 - [38] Did I actually see someone say why can't a large gun hit at 20km if it can at 160km? I'm having dejavu. I swear 6 years ago a bunch of 1337 Counterstrike players called him a Hack for knifing their camp squad while they all sat their with ultra one shot sniper rifles spinning in circles with the scope on. I mean come on. Fun > Realism. BF2 prime example. Technically the fact that frigates and cruiser do not have a orbit with evasion rather then standard orbital pattern is bad enough. Technically a frigate should be able to orbit with such quick evasive change of directions that the only thing that should be able to hit it is a lazer. taking projectile flight time.
Oberon Oblique	Posted - 2005.09.15 21:38:00 - [39] Imo the small ship vs big ship balance is rather close atm. Any BS driver can gear up and rip into most any frig camp(even with BS guns fitted). The only thing that would make the balance complete would be a range boost to webs and nos/neuts or the addition of the skill that boosts ranges or webs and nos/neuts. A BS should be able to go vs small groups of frigs/AF's/Intys and kill most or force warp outs before having to retire. Fitting gun clusters or big short range anti frig guns may be closer to reality but not the reality of EVE. -The mind is strong and the flesh is weak, but oh the flesh...
MoTHeR THuKKa	Posted - 2005.09.18 14:44:00 - [40] Repeat after me... "Blob tactics are laggy and boring, blob tactics are laggy and boring". Blob tactics are unfortunatly what wins the game, this is something they fixed in Everquest 2 compared to the original. Everyone keeps on talking about fun, but what is fun about going around with 29 other goons sharing 1 kill and hour between you and lagging badly all the way? Why have level 5 skills take AGES if they really don't make a lot of difference? Originally by: Parallax Error Originally by: MoTHeR THuKKa YOU fail to see the lameness of blob tactics. A two year old player loses to 2 noobs? That is NOT balanced. Repeat after me 10 times: "This is not WoW, time played does not give me an automatic right to win against people who have played less than myself"

Crellion	Posted - 2005.09.18 16:41:00 - [41] Devs are looking for new roles for tech II ships. The above posts contain I think a good idea. Give them slightly better than existing BS stats but also add the ability to fit 1 of these clusters (say equal to 3x150II rails but without bonuses)in the utility highslot. This would not make them teh uber in fights against other BSs - HACs while making them far superior crafts. You would pay a stupid price but with seeding a BS group with 20% of these BSs would man you have less need for antifrig support (and the actual BS gun dmg to large ships can also remain identical with tech 1 counterparts but at close range the "cluster" will add 100dps or so against the large targets as well). So they are not teh uber but clearly more adaptable to different situations, more valuable to groups and very expensive so that only the 2003 players that can fly them (initially) can afford them anyway. You d also add the skill -lvl4/5- Turret Multitasking Interface or something to be able to use the clusters anyway and other than those they woould be like todays empire faction BSs ... [yes it would also make lvl4s easier but hey those that have these skills solo them today as well anyway] LOLZ all in all I think a good idea! (after 7 months of shamelessly trolling the forums )
Ranger 1	Posted - 2005.09.18 17:35:00 - [42] Currently, if you feel the need, you can fit most any BS to be lethal to small groups of frigs. Most people evidently feel that that role is not important... that frigate packs are not a significant threat... otherwise they would do this. Standard fitted BS have the distinct advantage over frigates if the engagement starts at range (as it should be), and tend to get into trouble if those small fast ships get in under their guns (again, as it should be). If you want to take on packs of small ships in your BS, fit for the occasion. If you want to be deadly to other BS, fit for the occasion. If you want to do both, your going to have to make hard decisions. And therein lies the fun.
BlueSmok	Posted - 2005.09.18 19:00:00 - [43] Simple Suggestion, How about letting the ship skills affect Gun sizes that are below it? +5% damage mod to large projectiles, changed to +5% bonus to projectiles, Medium and Small. That way the Battleships that want to fit for anti Cruiser/Frigates aren't sacrificing their large gun bonuses. * Laws to suppress tend to strengthen what they would prohibit. This is the fine point on which all the legal professions of history have based their job security. Bene Gesserit Coda
Einheriar Ulrich	Posted - 2005.09.19 00:53:00 - [44] It makes perfectly sense, that small shops up close pick off big sluggish ships. If you dont want to be in that situation, get some escort ships, or fit for the occasion. It will alwasy be a tradeoff, imagine if you could fit your bs, to tkae on every role at onece, it would be invincible in small skirmishes. Thats the beuty of EVE, its gang game, if your alone your vulnerable. And who says, level 4 missions are designed to solo ? It just happens some people have the skills, and the isk to buy the good equipment, thats how they do it, i can solo levl 4 missions in a HAC, it shouldnt be so. So Say I. Einheriar Ulrich of the Bloodline of Einheriar. **Minion Of VOTF**
Corey Grim	Posted - 2005.09.19 06:36:00 - [45] example: megathron slots are: 8/4/7 +dronebay taranis slots are: 4/3/3 +u have use one med slot to Ab/mwd AND U R TELLING ME U HAVE DIFFICULTIES AGAINST FRIGS couple of points: there is no counter module to counter: webs, nosses, smartbombs. There is counter module to frigates most deadly weapon: warp scrambler/disruptor (WCS). oh offcourse if u fit against frig¦s u are not so effective against other BS... BUT that other bs is vulnerable to frigs balancing? yes frig pilots need module that fits into low slot and gives 50% reduction against webifiers (so ur 90% web is 40% web if that frig guy have that module fitted)
Stormhold	Posted - 2005.09.19 06:46:00 - [46] At the same moment when 2 well enough fitted newbies can't kill a sucky battleship player, I will go press "Cancel subscription". That'd also happen if pvp would force me totally to use a HAC or BS. IMHO frigs ability to be nearly impossible to hit by a BS even at a bit longer range should be boosted. Get an escort(s), or get drones/nos/smartbomb. Anything which promotes bigger = better for pvp sucks. I love EVE because you can actually do something meaningful in pvp with a cheap t1 frig or t1 cruiser. That also makes fitting bigger ships harder, as they need to think about how to counter smaller ships. Variety ftw.
Joerd Toastius	Posted - 2005.09.19 11:26:00 - [47] Originally by: Corey Grim couple of points: there is no counter module to counter: webs, nosses, smartbombs. ECM does two of the three
Corey Grim	Posted - 2005.09.19 12:50:00 - [48] Originally by: Joerd Toastius Originally by: Corey Grim couple of points: there is no counter module to counter: webs, nosses, smartbombs. ECM does two of the three yes and ECM does hell of a lot other things too BUT we r talking about frig size ships... example: megathrons magnetometric sensor strength is 21 points. one multispec gives u maxium 4.8 best racial gives u maxium of 7.2 AND those things suck cap like hell..... so thats not really an option to try to jam BS with frigs (yes with luck u can jam that bs but how long?? and if u have 15 frig squad then its possible...). ... of course when flying with fleet what has frigs as support there are different roles for every ship. but this thread is about BS pilots versus frig pilot, personally i think that BS pilots are now complaining about how that 1400mm artillery cant hit those little annoying things, and frigate pilots are complaining their only protection is speed against that slow, big, nasty bug. grats ccp this kinda coversation allways means that the game is quite balanced but i would still like to see that web counter module not like "i fit one and no one can web me" just simple 50% reduction to webifier strenght. Oh and its LOW slot module
MoTHeR THuKKa	Posted - 2005.09.19 21:03:00 - [49] [crazy laugh] I like the idea of this. How about been able to fit 8 of these units... [/crazy laugh] In my opinion there is currently no good tough anti frigate ships... ok you got HACS but who wants to risk losing 60M on ship alone to take out... annoying little frigates worth 200k? Yeah true you got assault frigs but being so slow all you need is a bs to turn up and you are history. Since missile and gun "changes" frigates are too much of a nuisance and way overpowered. Originally by: Crellion Devs are looking for new roles for tech II ships. The above posts contain I think a good idea. Give them slightly better than existing BS stats but also add the ability to fit 1 of these clusters (say equal to 3x150II rails but without bonuses)in the utility highslot. This would not make them teh uber in fights against other BSs - HACs while making them far superior crafts. You would pay a stupid price but with seeding a BS group with 20% of these BSs would man you have less need for antifrig support (and the actual BS gun dmg to large ships can also remain identical with tech 1 counterparts but at close range the "cluster" will add 100dps or so against the large targets as well). So they are not teh uber but clearly more adaptable to different situations, more valuable to groups and very expensive so that only the 2003 players that can fly them (initially) can afford them anyway. You d also add the skill -lvl4/5- Turret Multitasking Interface or something to be able to use the clusters anyway and other than those they woould be like todays empire faction BSs ... [yes it would also make lvl4s easier but hey those that have these skills solo them today as well anyway] LOLZ all in all I think a good idea! (after 7 months of shamelessly trolling the forums )
MoTHeR THuKKa	Posted - 2005.09.19 21:04:00 - [50] YOU don't feel frigate packs are a significent threat, because you have obviously never been in one, or been against one. Originally by: Ranger 1 Currently, if you feel the need, you can fit most any BS to be lethal to small groups of frigs. Most people evidently feel that that role is not important... that frigate packs are not a significant threat... otherwise they would do this. Standard fitted BS have the distinct advantage over frigates if the engagement starts at range (as it should be), and tend to get into trouble if those small fast ships get in under their guns (again, as it should be). If you want to take on packs of small ships in your BS, fit for the occasion. If you want to be deadly to other BS, fit for the occasion. If you want to do both, your going to have to make hard decisions. And therein lies the fun.

MoTHeR THuKKa	Posted - 2005.09.19 21:06:00 - [51] If CCP did this today I would promise to be a good boy, eat my broccoli and say a prayer every night. Honest! Originally by: BlueSmok Simple Suggestion, How about letting the ship skills affect Gun sizes that are below it? +5% damage mod to large projectiles, changed to +5% bonus to projectiles, Medium and Small. That way the Battleships that want to fit for anti Cruiser/Frigates aren't sacrificing their large gun bonuses.
MoTHeR THuKKa	Posted - 2005.09.19 21:06:00 - [52] Er, girl that is... Originally by: MoTHeR THuKKa If CCP did this today I would promise to be a good boy, eat my broccoli and say a prayer every night. Honest! Originally by: BlueSmok Simple Suggestion, How about letting the ship skills affect Gun sizes that are below it? +5% damage mod to large projectiles, changed to +5% bonus to projectiles, Medium and Small. That way the Battleships that want to fit for anti Cruiser/Frigates aren't sacrificing their large gun bonuses.
MoTHeR THuKKa	Posted - 2005.09.19 21:09:00 - [53] That is typical from a gate camping / group sniping corp that loves to take out indis. You are well 'ard. Originally by: Einheriar Ulrich It makes perfectly sense, that small shops up close pick off big sluggish ships. If you dont want to be in that situation, get some escort ships, or fit for the occasion. It will alwasy be a tradeoff, imagine if you could fit your bs, to tkae on every role at onece, it would be invincible in small skirmishes. Thats the beuty of EVE, its gang game, if your alone your vulnerable. And who says, level 4 missions are designed to solo ? It just happens some people have the skills, and the isk to buy the good equipment, thats how they do it, i can solo levl 4 missions in a HAC, it shouldnt be so.
MoTHeR THuKKa	Posted - 2005.09.19 21:17:00 - [54] Corey man, what are you talking about?!? The tarranis should cut through a frigate like thin air. It is one of the very few ships that the immense power of the neutron blaster with antimatter is actually plausable in. 3 light neutron blasters T2 1 T2 1mn AB 1 Webber 1 Scrambler 1 Aux power 1 Magnetic field Stab T2 1 Samll Armor Repairer T2 I take it back there is a good anti frigate ship which is hard to kill... Originally by: Corey Grim example: megathron slots are: 8/4/7 +dronebay taranis slots are: 4/3/3 +u have use one med slot to Ab/mwd AND U R TELLING ME U HAVE DIFFICULTIES AGAINST FRIGS couple of points: there is no counter module to counter: webs, nosses, smartbombs. There is counter module to frigates most deadly weapon: warp scrambler/disruptor (WCS). oh offcourse if u fit against frig¦s u are not so effective against other BS... BUT that other bs is vulnerable to frigs balancing? yes frig pilots need module that fits into low slot and gives 50% reduction against webifiers (so ur 90% web is 40% web if that frig guy have that module fitted)
Corey Grim	Posted - 2005.09.19 21:48:00 - [55] Edited by: Corey Grim on 19/09/2005 21:51:23 Originally by: MoTHeR THuKKa Corey man, what are you talking about?!? The tarranis should cut through a frigate like thin air. It is one of the very few ships that the immense power of the neutron blaster with antimatter is actually plausable in. 3 light neutron blasters T2 1 T2 1mn AB 1 Webber 1 Scrambler 1 Aux power 1 Magnetic field Stab T2 1 Samll Armor Repairer T2 I take it back there is a good anti frigate ship which is hard to kill... Originally by: Corey Grim example: megathron slots are: 8/4/7 +dronebay taranis slots are: 4/3/3 +u have use one med slot to Ab/mwd AND U R TELLING ME U HAVE DIFFICULTIES AGAINST FRIGS couple of points: there is no counter module to counter: webs, nosses, smartbombs. There is counter module to frigates most deadly weapon: warp scrambler/disruptor (WCS). oh offcourse if u fit against frig¦s u are not so effective against other BS... BUT that other bs is vulnerable to frigs balancing? yes frig pilots need module that fits into low slot and gives 50% reduction against webifiers (so ur 90% web is 40% web if that frig guy have that module fitted) umm i think theres somekinda misunderstanding here taranis is good ship, fast and has some firepower yes. BUT what im talking about is frigate class DEFENCE ability against BATTLESHIP if that BS pilot is smart enough to use counter frig modules (as sayed earlier in this thread there is LOTS of those and as i sayed earlier there is allmost no means to counter those) so all im saying there is many means that bs pilot can use against frigate class ships and tbh its fcking ridicilous that someone says there should be more of those or "we want make BS kill all frigates in sight and not sacrifising slots to do that". good fitted taranis is VERY effective again other frigates, but this thread is not about that Edit: or is it???
Shaemell Buttleson	Posted - 2005.09.19 22:03:00 - [56] I think there is some merit to your idea. How about frigate sized ships with only high slots to take small turrets, Cruiser/bc sized with their high slots that can fit medium only and also depending on what tier they are more high slots that only small turrets can fit, And then the same with BS size ships that have high slots which can fit the same amount of large turrets, then medium turrets and then small turrets only. Before you say this will make larger ships too overpowered I also think the powergrid and CPU should remain the same as it would restrict the equipment you can fit. So if you fit the largest most powerfull guns you wont be able to fit the smaller faster tracking.
infused	Posted - 2005.09.19 23:27:00 - [57] IMO I think this idea is wrong... but, another awesome idea has been bought up here... Gun clusters... now this is the best idea I have heard in along time... Why not have a cluster of say 4 tachyons in slot 1, 2 megapluse slot 2 etc etc... like real battleships... Would never happen I guess, but still a very good idea.
DrunkenOne	Posted - 2005.09.20 03:54:00 - [58] So please explain to me what is stopping you from fitting small or medium turrets on your BS?
Xharky	Posted - 2005.09.20 04:09:00 - [59] Hmm, actually the cluster gun idea might be a good one, say... 4x 150mms/Med Beams/280mms/Neutrons or something, make them take up 1000-1750 grid? with ~same CPU usage as a large gun Would be nice, as its kind of at the moment when the small guns i fitted takes up by itself a slot that would have been able to fit a gun much larger than it... 150mms taking up 425mm slots? I should be able to stuff 2 in or something :/ -------------------- (IRC EVE-Online Coldfront) <%t20> you know me GeromeDoutrande :) <%t20> i need a little stroke from time to time, non heart-attack related. <%t20> ****, omgrawr material
Malka Badi'a	Posted - 2005.09.20 04:44:00 - [60] Quote: why are the bigger guns that slower anyway??? It's not like there is wind resistance in space... Simple mechanics. A larger object is going to take more force to pivot it in a certain direction than a smaller object. A larger object is going to require more counterforce to make sure it doesn't overturn and keep spinning than a smaller object would. The extra amount of force and counterforce that go into weaponry on the size you are discussing is quite suprising when you read up on it. Because the smaller guns have less mass and weight overall they require very little power to twirl around in circles while maintaining accuracy. Larger guns have more mass and weight overall and therefore require a great deal of power to spin it around to the designated area. Apply this to a real life example (even though EVE is a game): The turrent on a tank takes a bit to come around, for reasons of accuracy, saftey, and power restrictions (least important). If it was moving too fast it would take a great deal of counterforce to slow it down enough to be accuracte so that it stops itself from a continual 360 degree spin. --------------



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