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MoTHeR THuKKa
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Posted - 2005.09.13 19:00:00 -
[1]
What would happen if you went up to an Aircraft Carrier in the Atlantic with a fleet of five Speedboats + machine guns and started firing on them.
You would get obliterated, even big ships have small guns.
It is silly to think that in Eve 5 frigates can orbit a BS and not get killed.
I would like to see Extra slots put on BS that are only for the use of Small and Medium Guns (or missiles).
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RabbidFerret
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Posted - 2005.09.13 19:11:00 -
[2]
Battleships have two main purposes:
Anti BS and Stationary bombardment.
They obviusly excel at Anti Bs, and 1vs1 can kill a BS faster than any other ships.
Frigates and even more importantly ceptors were built as quick response/BS escorts/ Anti BS (ceptors in groups). Their only means of survival vs. the firepower of a BS is thier speed.
Cruisers/Destroyers/Battlecruisers (maybe)/frigs/ceptors all act to counter eachother in combat. They were built to act as BS escorts, using thier smaller turrets to bring down enemy ceptors and frigs and using speed to avoid BS fire.
If your alone in your BS and 5 frigs/ceptors are orbiting you thats your fault. BSes are by no means king of the battlefield, they are just another part of what makes up a good fighting group.
All your ferrets are belong to us. |
HippoKing
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Posted - 2005.09.13 19:15:00 -
[3]
 Originally by: MoTHeR THuKKa
What would happen if you went up to an Aircraft Carrier in the Atlantic with a fleet of five Speedboats + machine guns and started firing on them.
You would get obliterated, even big ships have small guns.
It is silly to think that in Eve 5 frigates can orbit a BS and not get killed.
yup. thats right.
however
gameplay and balance > fun
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MoTHeR THuKKa
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Posted - 2005.09.13 19:17:00 -
[4]
Spot the interceptor pilot.
So you expect me to rat hunt npc's with a bounty of 500K in a big group do you?
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HippoKing
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Posted - 2005.09.13 19:22:00 -
[5]
Originally by: MoTHeR THuKKa
Spot the interceptor pilot.
So you expect me to rat hunt npc's with a bounty of 500K in a big group do you?
lol. i only have evasive manouvering 3.
actually, i am a raven pilot. i know what its like to be able to smash inties and frigs into little pieces very fast. its kind of satisfying, but the raven is more FUN now.
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BlackDog Rackh'am
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Posted - 2005.09.13 20:04:00 -
[6]
Since you mention npc's....there are some nifty little things out there,called the drones.Use them.
I have been playing for about a year,never had my drone skills trained until after the missile patch.I fly only minmatar ships,but i still used torpedos to kill npc frigates.After the missile change i took some time to train up the drone skills,and i can safely say that i regret not having done it earlier.
Plus,drones are useful in PvP as well in the right scenario.Heavy Nosferatu and some light or medium drones will usually drive interceptors pilots away,unless it's a 5 vs 1 in their favor,in which case you would probably lose anyway to anything,even if it's smaller than a battleship.
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Joerd Toastius
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Posted - 2005.09.13 22:15:00 -
[7]
...or you could just put smaller guns/launchers in your existing slots. Where's the problem?
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HippoKing
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Posted - 2005.09.13 22:16:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Joerd Toastius
...or you could just put smaller guns/launchers in your existing slots. Where's the problem?
the answer i believe is:
Originally by: A nublet
OMG - WHERE'S MY ONE SIZE GANKS ALL SETUP? WAAAAAAAAAAAAH
and yes, i'm a raven pilot, it doesn't mean i can't see missiles were overpowered before
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Wolverine PL
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Posted - 2005.09.13 22:18:00 -
[9]
Originally by: MoTHeR THuKKa
Spot the interceptor pilot.
So you expect me to rat hunt npc's with a bounty of 500K in a big group do you?
Use WCS or Heavy nos. And you wont have to worry about interceptors.
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Remedial
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Posted - 2005.09.13 22:31:00 -
[10]
Frigates are weak to, in no particular order:
1) Nos/Neuts
2) Webs
3) Smartbombs
4) Drones
5) Jamming (low sensor strength)
6) Medium or smaller guns
7) Assault/Standard + Rocket missiles
Don't try to argue that a BS can't easily pack any of these. Battleships have more slots for modules than any ship in the game. If you wanted you could load a Scorpion up with enough launchers, Nos, bombs, webs and EW to kill 15 frigates at once.
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Arimas Talasko
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Posted - 2005.09.13 22:52:00 -
[11]
Originally by: MoTHeR THuKKa
Spot the interceptor pilot.
So you expect me to rat hunt npc's with a bounty of 500K in a big group do you?
If you do this then you suck at this game. But given how little time you seem to have spent on considering the many, many almost fail safe ways (listed above by another poster) to utterly slaughter small ships with a sacrifice of only a few slots, I will assume that you do.
Supremacy Keepin it Real
Originally by: Daniel Jackson
PLEASE TELL US WHY, WHY DO U WANT US TO DIE,
I AM JUST GOING FRIGGEN INSAIGN
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Hannibal AntePorta
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Posted - 2005.09.13 23:07:00 -
[12]
Originally by: MoTHeR THuKKa
What would happen if you went up to an Aircraft Carrier in the Atlantic with a fleet of five Speedboats + machine guns and started firing on them.
You would get obliterated, even big ships have small guns.
It is silly to think that in Eve 5 frigates can orbit a BS and not get killed.
I would like to see Extra slots put on BS that are only for the use of Small and Medium Guns (or missiles).
In WW2 the torpedo boats (TP? PT?)menaced cruisers and battleships. So to your statement, its false. Now modern day, there is no such thing as a battleship that is actually used in combat. THis future scenario can very well be the same as the WW2 scenario. Its not a reality based game and shouldn't be treated as such.
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Hllaxiu
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Posted - 2005.09.13 23:23:00 -
[13]
Originally by: MoTHeR THuKKa
What would happen if you went up to an Aircraft Carrier in the Atlantic with a fleet of five Speedboats + machine guns and started firing on them.
I dunno. What happened if you thought a little bit more, and figured that frigates in game might be close to equivalent to frigates in real life? Long range cruise missiles, a couple drones^W Helos, some artillary. Never mind the equally small sub surface vessels that can take out surface fleets from the other side of the Earth (nukes ftw).
Proud member of Elite Academy. |
RabbidFerret
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Posted - 2005.09.13 23:35:00 -
[14]
SMARTBOMBS??! BRILLIANT!
All your ferrets are belong to us. |
Krulla
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Posted - 2005.09.13 23:50:00 -
[15]
Originally by: MoTHeR THuKKa
What would happen if you went up to an Aircraft Carrier in the Atlantic with a fleet of five Speedboats + machine guns and started firing on them.
You would get obliterated, even big ships have small guns.
It is silly to think that in Eve 5 frigates can orbit a BS and not get killed.
Take a world war II battleship (since there's no such thing as a modern battleship anymore), add some water, make it float.
Now add 5 hostile frigates (not speedboats, frigates) with some decent caliber cannons. Guess what! The battleship is in a lot of trouble, becouse it was a moron and went in without escort!
Take a EvE battleship.
Now add 5 hostile frigates with some decent skills.
Guess what! The battleship is in a lot of trouble, becouse it was a moron and went in alone!
Respect the Domi. Or else. |
Nerie Diabalous
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Posted - 2005.09.14 00:02:00 -
[16]
Ppl dont forget gun calibers a cruiser/frigate wont have enought penetration to bypass a BS armor and blow on the inside (dont even think of explosion on the outside, they wont pass the armor on the medium and heavy guns) yes a bs should have some ability to fit smaller guns (secondary slots for med or small guns) and the tracking and firing abilities of a large turret on a BS woundt give her a headache to hit, and a 300mm-700mm BS main cannons round would find itself blowing on the inside of a cruiser/frigate. Heaviest armor on the BS classes had 500mm armor thickness, wich was to much for 100 to 200mm cruiser and frigs carried. All ships now and then are fitted for a variaty of encounters.
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Joerd Toastius
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Posted - 2005.09.14 00:19:00 -
[17]
Should also be bourne in mind that in a reasonably recent theoretical wargame conducted by the US Military, the Red Team ("Bad Guys") managed to take out most of the Blue Team's ("USA") carriers by driving up to them in speedboats and detonating lots of high explosives. Worked in WWII, works now too apparently.
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MoTHeR THuKKa
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Posted - 2005.09.14 21:43:00 -
[18]
I am amazed that none of you have it in your heart to consider what I suggested as an idea. Think of the possibilities...
After spending 130M on a ship, of 40-70 hours mining for a ship, aren't you sad to see that those tech 2 guns you train for two months to use are equally as useless against small ships?
Oh yeah, the LONG rang guns... it makes so much sense that you can hit a tiny target from 160km accuratly compared to 20k. Ok start saying stuff like "transversal velocity" and "radials per second" why are the bigger guns that slower anyway??? It's not like there is wind resistance in space...
Ok so I am mad, or mathematically wrong who care.
FOR YOUR INFORMATION I use a dominix with tech 2 medium guns for ratting. Its the bees knees, I have known this technique for ages all I am saying is that a battleship should be able to go into a battle. If that doesn't make sense at least consider having a bonus for medium or small faction guns on BS... Damnit, you guys stink anyway.
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j0sephine
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Posted - 2005.09.14 21:50:00 -
[19]
"I am amazed that none of you have it in your heart to consider what I suggested as an idea. Think of the possibilities..."
I think it'd be cool if the heavy ships had some (say up to 4) extra slots for small weapons, actually... just doesn't seem very doable with the current fitting system the game uses ^^;;;
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HippoKing
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Posted - 2005.09.14 21:52:00 -
[20]
Originally by: MoTHeR THuKKa
After spending 130M on a ship, of 40-70 hours mining for a ship, aren't you sad to see that those tech 2 guns you train for two months to use are equally as useless against small ships?
Oh yeah, the LONG rang guns... it makes so much sense that you can hit a tiny target from 160km accuratly compared to 20k. Ok start saying stuff like "transversal velocity" and "radials per second" why are the bigger guns that slower anyway??? It's not like there is wind resistance in space...
urgh
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Dimitri Forgroth
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Posted - 2005.09.14 21:55:00 -
[21]
Originally by: HippoKing
urgh
Stop stealing my thoughts.
Don't be a bad loser | DPS Spreadsheet |
Bedrock
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Posted - 2005.09.14 22:17:00 -
[22]
You fail to see the concept of "support" ships and their role.
[Please support my 'AFK Indicator' idea!!] |
MoTHeR THuKKa
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Posted - 2005.09.14 22:24:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Bedrock
You fail to see the concept of "support" ships and their role.
YOU fail to see the lameness of blob tactics. A two year old player loses to 2 noobs? That is NOT balanced.
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Aversin
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Posted - 2005.09.14 22:27:00 -
[24]
Originally by: MoTHeR THuKKa
What would happen if you went up to an Aircraft Carrier in the Atlantic with a fleet of five Speedboats + machine guns and started firing on them.
You would get obliterated, even big ships have small guns.
It is silly to think that in Eve 5 frigates can orbit a BS and not get killed.
I would like to see Extra slots put on BS that are only for the use of Small and Medium Guns (or missiles).
that situation is not balanced. a frigate is hardly a speedboat, it is a pod-piloted ship with advanced weapons and shields :). Now tbh t1 frigates can be killed by drones, and if 5 t1 frigates attack a bs and the bs armor tanked (at least decent) they arnt gonna break the tank, 1 large t2 armor rep running constantly will keep the bs alive and laughing, usually frig gank squads dont hit bs that are setup to tank. or they have t2 ships with them
also, it is a game not rl. join the navy
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Joerd Toastius
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Posted - 2005.09.14 23:40:00 -
[25]
Originally by: MoTHeR THuKKa
Originally by: Bedrock
You fail to see the concept of "support" ships and their role.
YOU fail to see the lameness of blob tactics. A two year old player loses to 2 noobs? That is NOT balanced.
Balance isn't about "who's played longest" :P
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jbob2000
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Posted - 2005.09.14 23:45:00 -
[26]
This is Eve not real life. In Real Life the objective is to kill the enemy asap/defend the territory as best as possible. In Eve, the objective is to have fun, and pwn-all ships aren't fun.
BTW, 5 frigates can take out a bs. Infact, 2 assault frigates can take down a bs.
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Ticondrius
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Posted - 2005.09.14 23:47:00 -
[27]
Can't you guys see? Small weapons go in low slots, mediums in mid slots. tradeoff in tanking/EW/speed modules etc... It's a good idea. I'd not mind trading off a couple of low slots on my thron for a pair of 150mms. Sure my main guns do less damage, but that's ok.
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jbob2000
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Posted - 2005.09.15 00:03:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Ticondrius
Can't you guys see? Small weapons go in low slots, mediums in mid slots. tradeoff in tanking/EW/speed modules etc... It's a good idea. I'd not mind trading off a couple of low slots on my thron for a pair of 150mms. Sure my main guns do less damage, but that's ok.
lol
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Krulla
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Posted - 2005.09.15 00:23:00 -
[29]
Originally by: MoTHeR THuKKa
I am amazed that none of you have it in your heart to consider what I suggested as an idea. Think of the possibilities...
Um, possibilities?
Battleship sized guns used to hit frigates just fine. Then, about two years ago, they changed it..
Know what was happening back when they could hit them?
NOONE FLEW ANYTHING BUT BATTLESHIPS!
Frigates are now reasonably useful. Battleships are no longer the be all and end all ship...
And if you want to kill a frigate, just do even one of the following:
A) Use drones
B) Fit one (1) heavy nosferatu
C) Use a web
D) Use a smartbomb
E) combination of A, B, C, and/or D.
If you cant kill frigates in a BS, you, well, erm, suck.
Respect the Domi. Or else. |
MrMorph
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Posted - 2005.09.15 09:48:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Remedial
Frigates are weak to, in no particular order:
1) Nos/Neuts
2) Webs
3) Smartbombs
4) Drones
5) Jamming (low sensor strength)
6) Medium or smaller guns
7) Assault/Standard + Rocket missiles
Don't try to argue that a BS can't easily pack any of these. Battleships have more slots for modules than any ship in the game. If you wanted you could load a Scorpion up with enough launchers, Nos, bombs, webs and EW to kill 15 frigates at once.
anyone that have met commanders when NPC'ing, will tell you that if you substitute a gun or two for nos/smartbomb, you will most sertainly get ****** over, as u need 110% of your firepower to take it down anyways.
----------------------------------------------
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Masu'di
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Posted - 2005.09.15 10:33:00 -
[31]
Originally by: MoTHeR THuKKa
What would happen if you went up to an Aircraft Carrier in the Atlantic with a fleet of five Speedboats + machine guns and started firing on them.
You would get obliterated, even big ships have small guns.
It is silly to think that in Eve 5 frigates can orbit a BS and not get killed.
I would like to see Extra slots put on BS that are only for the use of Small and Medium Guns (or missiles).
Firstly, last time i checked you don't get aircraft carriers or speed boats in Eve. So RL comparisons are pretty irrelevant. However, if that is what you believe Eve should be like, there are quite a few counter examples to your arguement Motor Torpedo Boat and Midget Submarines - just one or two examples of small fast and deadly craft that large battleships had difficulty defending against.
bringing Es and Whizz to a station near you
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RawCode
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Posted - 2005.09.15 11:14:00 -
[32]
You do not think our US carriers are vulnerable to attacks from small ships? Well they are.
And that is why they have a support group of around 15 ships to defend them. A carrier by itself is defenseless.
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Tul 'Kas
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Posted - 2005.09.15 17:43:00 -
[33]
Originally by: RawCode
And that is why they have a support group of around 15 ships to defend them.
Not to mention all those drones it can launch...
... er, aircraft, that is.
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Parallax Error
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Posted - 2005.09.15 17:50:00 -
[34]
Originally by: MoTHeR THuKKa
YOU fail to see the lameness of blob tactics. A two year old player loses to 2 noobs? That is NOT balanced.
Repeat after me 10 times:
"This is not WoW, time played does not give me an automatic right to win against people who have played less than myself"
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Derron Bel
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Posted - 2005.09.15 17:51:00 -
[35]
While we're making that comparison, I think a general 'sunk' an aircraft carrier with small boats in war-games, oh, 2-3 years ago. Soooo... ;)
-==-
Holy-Jim> as you know, surprise is the key to victory.....surprise!
LooseCannoN> ahh!
LooseCannoN> my plans have been foiled! |
Joerd Toastius
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Posted - 2005.09.15 19:39:00 -
[36]
Mentioned that p1 :P
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Darcon
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Posted - 2005.09.15 20:52:00 -
[37]
For informational purposes:
Iowa Class Battleship
1943:
9, 16 inch guns
20, 5 inch guns
80, 40mm guns
49, 20mm guns
1968:
9, 16 inch guns
20, 5 inch guns
1983:
9, 16 inch guns
12, 5 inch guns
4, 20mm anti air/missile (phalanx guns)
32, cruise missile (tomahawk) launchers
16, anti ship missile (harpoon) launchers
Obviously those kinds of numbers would be a bit hard to implement in F1-F8.
You could add a "gun cluster" module though. Takes the powergrid of a large (thus battleship only mount) but has the damage output, range, tracking of about half a dozen small guns. Kind of a Gatling Phalanx Point Defense Laser/Autocannon/Blaster.
Risk vs. reward ratio is what needs to be preserved. Though a HAC vs. Battlehip fight might be about fair in cost terms, the T1 frigate pack killing a battleship is not even close. No risk to the frigs, all rewards for a fat gank.
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Mercade
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Posted - 2005.09.15 21:01:00 -
[38]
Did I actually see someone say why can't a large gun hit at 20km if it can at 160km?
I'm having dejavu. I swear 6 years ago a bunch of 1337 Counterstrike players called him a Hack for knifing their camp squad while they all sat their with ultra one shot sniper rifles spinning in circles with the scope on.
I mean come on. Fun > Realism. BF2 prime example. Technically the fact that frigates and cruiser do not have a orbit with evasion rather then standard orbital pattern is bad enough. Technically a frigate should be able to orbit with such quick evasive change of directions that the only thing that should be able to hit it is a lazer. taking projectile flight time.
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Oberon Oblique
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Posted - 2005.09.15 21:38:00 -
[39]
Imo the small ship vs big ship balance is rather close atm. Any BS driver can gear up and rip into most any frig camp(even with BS guns fitted).
The only thing that would make the balance complete would be a range boost to webs and nos/neuts or the addition of the skill that boosts ranges or webs and nos/neuts.
A BS should be able to go vs small groups of frigs/AF's/Intys and kill most or force warp outs before having to retire.
Fitting gun clusters or big short range anti frig guns may be closer to reality but not the reality of EVE.
-The mind is strong and the flesh is weak, but oh the flesh... |
MoTHeR THuKKa
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Posted - 2005.09.18 14:44:00 -
[40]
Repeat after me...
"Blob tactics are laggy and boring, blob tactics are laggy and boring".
Blob tactics are unfortunatly what wins the game, this is something they fixed in Everquest 2 compared to the original.
Everyone keeps on talking about fun, but what is fun about going around with 29 other goons sharing 1 kill and hour between you and lagging badly all the way?
Why have level 5 skills take AGES if they really don't make a lot of difference?
Originally by: Parallax Error
Originally by: MoTHeR THuKKa
YOU fail to see the lameness of blob tactics. A two year old player loses to 2 noobs? That is NOT balanced.
Repeat after me 10 times:
"This is not WoW, time played does not give me an automatic right to win against people who have played less than myself"
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Crellion
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Posted - 2005.09.18 16:41:00 -
[41]
Devs are looking for new roles for tech II ships. The above posts contain I think a good idea. Give them slightly better than existing BS stats but also add the ability to fit 1 of these clusters (say equal to 3x150II rails but without bonuses)in the utility highslot. This would not make them teh uber in fights against other BSs - HACs while making them far superior crafts. You would pay a stupid price but with seeding a BS group with 20% of these BSs would man you have less need for antifrig support (and the actual BS gun dmg to large ships can also remain identical with tech 1 counterparts but at close range the "cluster" will add 100dps or so against the large targets as well).
So they are not teh uber but clearly more adaptable to different situations, more valuable to groups and very expensive so that only the 2003 players that can fly them (initially) can afford them anyway. You d also add the skill -lvl4/5- Turret Multitasking Interface or something to be able to use the clusters anyway and other than those they woould be like todays empire faction BSs ...
[yes it would also make lvl4s easier but hey those that have these skills solo them today as well anyway]
LOLZ all in all I think a good idea! (after 7 months of shamelessly trolling the forums  )
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Ranger 1
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Posted - 2005.09.18 17:35:00 -
[42]
Currently, if you feel the need, you can fit most any BS to be lethal to small groups of frigs. Most people evidently feel that that role is not important... that frigate packs are not a significant threat... otherwise they would do this.
Standard fitted BS have the distinct advantage over frigates if the engagement starts at range (as it should be), and tend to get into trouble if those small fast ships get in under their guns (again, as it should be).
If you want to take on packs of small ships in your BS, fit for the occasion.
If you want to be deadly to other BS, fit for the occasion.
If you want to do both, your going to have to make hard decisions.
And therein lies the fun.
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BlueSmok
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Posted - 2005.09.18 19:00:00 -
[43]
Simple Suggestion, How about letting the ship skills affect Gun sizes that are below it? +5% damage mod to large projectiles, changed to +5% bonus to projectiles, Medium and Small. That way the Battleships that want to fit for anti Cruiser/Frigates aren't sacrificing their large gun bonuses.
*
Laws to suppress tend to strengthen what they would prohibit. This is the fine point on which all the legal professions of history have based their job security.
Bene Gesserit Coda |
Einheriar Ulrich
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Posted - 2005.09.19 00:53:00 -
[44]
It makes perfectly sense, that small shops up close pick off big sluggish ships.
If you dont want to be in that situation, get some escort ships, or fit for the occasion.
It will alwasy be a tradeoff, imagine if you could fit your bs, to tkae on every role at onece, it would be invincible in small skirmishes.
Thats the beuty of EVE, its gang game, if your alone your vulnerable.
And who says, level 4 missions are designed to solo ?
It just happens some people have the skills, and the isk to buy the good equipment, thats how they do it, i can solo levl 4 missions in a HAC, it shouldnt be so.
So Say I. Einheriar Ulrich of the Bloodline of Einheriar.
****Minion Of VOTF****
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Corey Grim
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Posted - 2005.09.19 06:36:00 -
[45]
example:
megathron slots are: 8/4/7
+dronebay
taranis slots are: 4/3/3
+u have use one med slot to Ab/mwd
AND U R TELLING ME U HAVE DIFFICULTIES AGAINST FRIGS 
couple of points: there is no counter module to counter: webs, nosses, smartbombs.
There is counter module to frigates most deadly weapon: warp scrambler/disruptor (WCS).
oh offcourse if u fit against frig¦s u are not so effective against other BS... BUT that other bs is vulnerable to frigs 
balancing? yes frig pilots need module that fits into low slot and gives 50% reduction against webifiers (so ur 90% web is 40% web if that frig guy have that module fitted)
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Stormhold
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Posted - 2005.09.19 06:46:00 -
[46]
At the same moment when 2 well enough fitted newbies can't kill a sucky battleship player, I will go press "Cancel subscription". That'd also happen if pvp would force me totally to use a HAC or BS.
IMHO frigs ability to be nearly impossible to hit by a BS even at a bit longer range should be boosted. Get an escort(s), or get drones/nos/smartbomb.
Anything which promotes bigger = better for pvp sucks. I love EVE because you can actually do something meaningful in pvp with a cheap t1 frig or t1 cruiser. That also makes fitting bigger ships harder, as they need to think about how to counter smaller ships.
Variety ftw.
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Joerd Toastius
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Posted - 2005.09.19 11:26:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Corey Grim
couple of points: there is no counter module to counter: webs, nosses, smartbombs.
ECM does two of the three
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Corey Grim
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Posted - 2005.09.19 12:50:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Joerd Toastius
Originally by: Corey Grim
couple of points: there is no counter module to counter: webs, nosses, smartbombs.
ECM does two of the three
yes and ECM does hell of a lot other things too BUT we r talking about frig size ships... example: megathrons magnetometric sensor strength is 21 points. one multispec gives u maxium 4.8 best racial gives u maxium of 7.2 AND those things suck cap like hell..... so thats not really an option to try to jam BS with frigs (yes with luck u can jam that bs but how long?? and if u have 15 frig squad then its possible...).
... of course when flying with fleet what has frigs as support there are different roles for every ship.
but this thread is about BS pilots versus frig pilot, personally i think that BS pilots are now complaining about how that 1400mm artillery cant hit those little annoying things, and frigate pilots are complaining their only protection is speed against that slow, big, nasty bug.
grats ccp this kinda coversation allways means that the game is quite balanced but i would still like to see that web counter module not like "i fit one and no one can web me" just simple 50% reduction to webifier strenght. Oh and its LOW slot module
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MoTHeR THuKKa
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Posted - 2005.09.19 21:03:00 -
[49]
[crazy laugh]
I like the idea of this. How about been able to fit 8 of these units...
[/crazy laugh]
In my opinion there is currently no good tough anti frigate ships... ok you got HACS but who wants to risk losing 60M on ship alone to take out... annoying little frigates worth 200k?
Yeah true you got assault frigs but being so slow all you need is a bs to turn up and you are history.
Since missile and gun "changes" frigates are too much of a nuisance and way overpowered.
Originally by: Crellion
Devs are looking for new roles for tech II ships. The above posts contain I think a good idea. Give them slightly better than existing BS stats but also add the ability to fit 1 of these clusters (say equal to 3x150II rails but without bonuses)in the utility highslot. This would not make them teh uber in fights against other BSs - HACs while making them far superior crafts. You would pay a stupid price but with seeding a BS group with 20% of these BSs would man you have less need for antifrig support (and the actual BS gun dmg to large ships can also remain identical with tech 1 counterparts but at close range the "cluster" will add 100dps or so against the large targets as well).
So they are not teh uber but clearly more adaptable to different situations, more valuable to groups and very expensive so that only the 2003 players that can fly them (initially) can afford them anyway. You d also add the skill -lvl4/5- Turret Multitasking Interface or something to be able to use the clusters anyway and other than those they woould be like todays empire faction BSs ...
[yes it would also make lvl4s easier but hey those that have these skills solo them today as well anyway]
LOLZ all in all I think a good idea! (after 7 months of shamelessly trolling the forums )
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MoTHeR THuKKa
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Posted - 2005.09.19 21:04:00 -
[50]
YOU don't feel frigate packs are a significent threat, because you have obviously never been in one, or been against one.
Originally by: Ranger 1
Currently, if you feel the need, you can fit most any BS to be lethal to small groups of frigs. Most people evidently feel that that role is not important... that frigate packs are not a significant threat... otherwise they would do this.
Standard fitted BS have the distinct advantage over frigates if the engagement starts at range (as it should be), and tend to get into trouble if those small fast ships get in under their guns (again, as it should be).
If you want to take on packs of small ships in your BS, fit for the occasion.
If you want to be deadly to other BS, fit for the occasion.
If you want to do both, your going to have to make hard decisions.
And therein lies the fun.
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MoTHeR THuKKa
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Posted - 2005.09.19 21:06:00 -
[51]
If CCP did this today I would promise to be a good boy, eat my broccoli and say a prayer every night. Honest!
Originally by: BlueSmok
Simple Suggestion, How about letting the ship skills affect Gun sizes that are below it? +5% damage mod to large projectiles, changed to +5% bonus to projectiles, Medium and Small. That way the Battleships that want to fit for anti Cruiser/Frigates aren't sacrificing their large gun bonuses.
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MoTHeR THuKKa
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Posted - 2005.09.19 21:06:00 -
[52]
Er, girl that is...
Originally by: MoTHeR THuKKa
If CCP did this today I would promise to be a good boy, eat my broccoli and say a prayer every night. Honest!
Originally by: BlueSmok
Simple Suggestion, How about letting the ship skills affect Gun sizes that are below it? +5% damage mod to large projectiles, changed to +5% bonus to projectiles, Medium and Small. That way the Battleships that want to fit for anti Cruiser/Frigates aren't sacrificing their large gun bonuses.
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MoTHeR THuKKa
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Posted - 2005.09.19 21:09:00 -
[53]
That is typical from a gate camping / group sniping corp that loves to take out indis.
You are well 'ard.
Originally by: Einheriar Ulrich
It makes perfectly sense, that small shops up close pick off big sluggish ships.
If you dont want to be in that situation, get some escort ships, or fit for the occasion.
It will alwasy be a tradeoff, imagine if you could fit your bs, to tkae on every role at onece, it would be invincible in small skirmishes.
Thats the beuty of EVE, its gang game, if your alone your vulnerable.
And who says, level 4 missions are designed to solo ?
It just happens some people have the skills, and the isk to buy the good equipment, thats how they do it, i can solo levl 4 missions in a HAC, it shouldnt be so.
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MoTHeR THuKKa
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Posted - 2005.09.19 21:17:00 -
[54]
Corey man, what are you talking about?!? The tarranis should cut through a frigate like thin air. It is one of the very few ships that the immense power of the neutron blaster with antimatter is actually plausable in.
3 light neutron blasters T2
1 T2 1mn AB 1 Webber 1 Scrambler
1 Aux power 1 Magnetic field Stab T2 1 Samll Armor Repairer T2
I take it back there is a good anti frigate ship which is hard to kill...
Originally by: Corey Grim
example:
megathron slots are: 8/4/7
+dronebay
taranis slots are: 4/3/3
+u have use one med slot to Ab/mwd
AND U R TELLING ME U HAVE DIFFICULTIES AGAINST FRIGS
couple of points: there is no counter module to counter: webs, nosses, smartbombs.
There is counter module to frigates most deadly weapon: warp scrambler/disruptor (WCS).
oh offcourse if u fit against frig¦s u are not so effective against other BS... BUT that other bs is vulnerable to frigs
balancing? yes frig pilots need module that fits into low slot and gives 50% reduction against webifiers (so ur 90% web is 40% web if that frig guy have that module fitted)
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Corey Grim
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Posted - 2005.09.19 21:48:00 -
[55]
Edited by: Corey Grim on 19/09/2005 21:51:23
Originally by: MoTHeR THuKKa
Corey man, what are you talking about?!? The tarranis should cut through a frigate like thin air. It is one of the very few ships that the immense power of the neutron blaster with antimatter is actually plausable in.
3 light neutron blasters T2
1 T2 1mn AB 1 Webber 1 Scrambler
1 Aux power 1 Magnetic field Stab T2 1 Samll Armor Repairer T2
I take it back there is a good anti frigate ship which is hard to kill...
Originally by: Corey Grim
example:
megathron slots are: 8/4/7
+dronebay
taranis slots are: 4/3/3
+u have use one med slot to Ab/mwd
AND U R TELLING ME U HAVE DIFFICULTIES AGAINST FRIGS
couple of points: there is no counter module to counter: webs, nosses, smartbombs.
There is counter module to frigates most deadly weapon: warp scrambler/disruptor (WCS).
oh offcourse if u fit against frig¦s u are not so effective against other BS... BUT that other bs is vulnerable to frigs
balancing? yes frig pilots need module that fits into low slot and gives 50% reduction against webifiers (so ur 90% web is 40% web if that frig guy have that module fitted)
umm i think theres somekinda misunderstanding here  taranis is good ship, fast and has some firepower yes.
BUT what im talking about is frigate class DEFENCE ability against BATTLESHIP if that BS pilot is smart enough to use counter frig modules
(as sayed earlier in this thread there is LOTS of those and as i sayed earlier there is allmost no means to counter those)
so all im saying there is many means that bs pilot can use against frigate class ships and tbh its fcking ridicilous that someone says there should be more of those or "we want make BS kill all frigates in sight and not sacrifising slots to do that".
good fitted taranis is VERY effective again other frigates, but this thread is not about that
Edit: or is it???
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Shaemell Buttleson
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Posted - 2005.09.19 22:03:00 -
[56]
I think there is some merit to your idea.
How about frigate sized ships with only high slots to take small turrets, Cruiser/bc sized with their high slots that can fit medium only and also depending on what tier they are more high slots that only small turrets can fit, And then the same with BS size ships that have high slots which can fit the same amount of large turrets, then medium turrets and then small turrets only.
Before you say this will make larger ships too overpowered I also think the powergrid and CPU should remain the same as it would restrict the equipment you can fit. So if you fit the largest most powerfull guns you wont be able to fit the smaller faster tracking.
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infused
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Posted - 2005.09.19 23:27:00 -
[57]
IMO I think this idea is wrong... but, another awesome idea has been bought up here...
Gun clusters... now this is the best idea I have heard in along time...
Why not have a cluster of say 4 tachyons in slot 1, 2 megapluse slot 2 etc etc... like real battleships...
Would never happen I guess, but still a very good idea.
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DrunkenOne
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Posted - 2005.09.20 03:54:00 -
[58]
So please explain to me what is stopping you from fitting small or medium turrets on your BS?
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Xharky
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Posted - 2005.09.20 04:09:00 -
[59]
Hmm, actually the cluster gun idea might be a good one, say... 4x 150mms/Med Beams/280mms/Neutrons or something, make them take up 1000-1750 grid? with ~same CPU usage as a large gun
Would be nice, as its kind of  at the moment when the small guns i fitted takes up by itself a slot that would have been able to fit a gun much larger than it... 150mms taking up 425mm slots? I should be able to stuff 2 in or something :/
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(IRC EVE-Online Coldfront)
<%t20> you know me GeromeDoutrande :)
<%t20> i need a little stroke from time to time, non heart-attack related.
<%t20> ****, omgrawr material |
Malka Badi'a
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Posted - 2005.09.20 04:44:00 -
[60]
Quote:
why are the bigger guns that slower anyway??? It's not like there is wind resistance in space...
Simple mechanics. A larger object is going to take more force to pivot it in a certain direction than a smaller object. A larger object is going to require more counterforce to make sure it doesn't overturn and keep spinning than a smaller object would.
The extra amount of force and counterforce that go into weaponry on the size you are discussing is quite suprising when you read up on it. Because the smaller guns have less mass and weight overall they require very little power to twirl around in circles while maintaining accuracy. Larger guns have more mass and weight overall and therefore require a great deal of power to spin it around to the designated area.
Apply this to a real life example (even though EVE is a game): The turrent on a tank takes a bit to come around, for reasons of accuracy, saftey, and power restrictions (least important). If it was moving too fast it would take a great deal of counterforce to slow it down enough to be accuracte so that it stops itself from a continual 360 degree spin.
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DrunkenOne
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Posted - 2005.09.20 05:08:00 -
[61]
Edited by: DrunkenOne on 20/09/2005 05:10:24
Look you people are all idiots. There aren't going to be "gun clusters" of small guns, because the dps of small->med->large guns isn't enormous. If this came into play then everyone would just fit 8 racks of quad light neutron IIs or somethhing on an apoc with 7 damage mods and own anything close range, the dps would be absurd, and every single hit would be an excellent against another BS. That would basically be like fighting 20 blasteranises, as not only is it the equivalent of 32 light neutron IIs, but it also has 7 damage mods stacked making it more like the equivalent of 80 or something.
Hell you could use 150 IIs and get like 10km range, meaning it would have more range than a blasterthron, better tracking, more damage, less cap use, etc...
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Destroyer Draxx
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Posted - 2005.09.20 05:52:00 -
[62]
If this were to happen then each BS should be able to fit 2 racks tops, so as to avoid what Drunken said. Btw to the reference that everyone used to fly a battleship, check what the are flying now.Assault frig/Ceptor mix gangs 4tw (n maybe an occasional HAC). CCP is trying to make this game fleet + tactics orientated, fair enough. The problem is that when a 20 ppl gang gets stuck at g8 while jumping in an empty system (not to mention lag in really big fights. Fleet = lots of ppl, if the servers cant support that, maybe fleet combat is not what CCP should be after.
Just my thoughs on the matter
So Far So Good....So What |
theRaptor
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Posted - 2005.09.20 08:07:00 -
[63]
Battleships are meant to vulnerable. Thats why a BS has worse sensor resolution then a frigate, although in real life a BS can mount better electronics then any frigate. Get the **** over it or quit.
That is not dead which can eternal lie,
And with strange aeons even death may die.
-- Ancient "Dirt" Religious figure. |
Mangus Thermopyle
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Posted - 2005.09.20 08:17:00 -
[64]
Originally by: MoTHeR THuKKa
It is silly to think that in Eve 5 frigates can orbit a BS and not get killed.
I would like to see Extra slots put on BS that are only for the use of Small and Medium Guns (or missiles).
This is one of the worst suggestions I have seen on this forums.
Yes, lets make the big ships even better, thats what EVE needs right now.
Besides, unless the BS pilot is both clueless and badly equipped, he will be able to kill the frigates.
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Ante
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Posted - 2005.09.20 11:12:00 -
[65]
There's no real problem with bs vs frig. If you fit to fight purely bs then it's your decision based on what you want to do, but you have to realise that you CAN get taken down by multiple frigs and cruisers. It's your choice and you will pay for it if worst comes to worst, but that is how life works.
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Anjerrai Meloanis
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Posted - 2005.09.20 12:16:00 -
[66]
really bad idea..
uh.
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