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Captain Tardbar
NEWB ALERT
306
   |
Posted - 2013.04.25 14:42:00 -
[1] - Quote
Seeing the leaked documents on ring mining requiring more interactivity on asteroid mining and the changes to ice mining, it appears that CCP is moving in a direction of more interactivity in minining.
We will most likley see the details about this tomorrow during the talk on EVE and mining...
That said, I would like to play Devil's advocate and say this might actually be a bad thing for the EVE and its economy.
Mining draws the type of persons who don't want to bother with missions (which by most accounts is simply aggro managment). Miner's seem to enjoy playing the game with little interaction as possible. The pinacle of this aspect is found with people who ice mine which is basically targeting an ice rock, pushing a button, and then waiting 30 minutes.
These people have no interest in playing a game that requires them to push buttons every 60 secdonds. Even regular mining can be done mostly done afk.
Like I said, I don't know what most miner's do while mining. I have talked to people that actually sit there and watch the rocks, but I suspect most of them do other things while playing EVE. Things like watching Youtube or Netflix, chat on teamspeak, troll the forums, listen to music, or generally do other things. (I have been known to do homework).
From an anecdotal perspective, I have the option to play many games. From single player games, to a plethora of multiplayer games.
Personally two games I have been enjoying recently are Star Wars the Old Republic and Victoria 2. That said, I have been playing EVE quite a bit more than those two games even though I have been doing nothing more than Ice Mining. Why? Because I like to listen to music (Mozart) and sip on a glas of merlot while I surf the internet while ice mining.
Its quite relaxing and an interesting way to pass the time.
That said, I would not recommend it for everyone. Its not as exciting and thrilling as a lowsec roam which sometimes I like to do, but sometimes I just want to vegetate.
If let's say, ice mining and mining in general became much more interactive, those players who enjoy "playing the game while not playing the game" have lost their niche.
If one has to constantly pay attention to the game much like missions (well sort of) then you might as well be playing missions.
In this respect, I suspct that a good deal of miners who currently enjoyed their relaxing pastime (well when not being ganked) will find the game too interactive to sit there and relax.
I don't know what everyone will do (I'm sure someone will rage quit). Peronsally I might stop mining and do something else for a living (say turn my current funds into industry), but if I and others stop mining, then perhaps the mineral prices will start to rise causing inflation in general. Which I am sure mission runners and those who spend their real money on plex will not enjoy.
Of course this is just speculation until tomorrow's talk on mining.
It might be quite possible to mine at a lower rate without the interaction and the interaction only increases yield but is not a requirement.
But if mining does require more interactivity for any yield, will most of you non-miners consider mining? Will you missions runners and PVP types quit your current business model and pick up a mining barge to get in on the rising profit related to mining?
Or will only the current miners continue to mine?
Is CCP making a big assuming that players want more mining interactivity while not actually knowing this to be true?
And any players who answer in this thread "yes, I want more interactivity" are you going to personally mine because of these changes or is this just an expectation of what you think other people want?
And yes, I suppose I admitted to being a dirty miner.
"Entitlement" is a euphemism for "I hate the way you play and it makes me cry like a baby".
If you fantasize about being immoral it means you enjoy being immoral deep down. |
Some Rando
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
825
|
Posted - 2013.04.25 14:47:00 -
[2] - Quote
Captain Tardbar wrote:In this respect, I suspct that a good deal of miners who currently enjoyed their relaxing pastime (well when not being ganked) will find the game too interactive to sit there and relax.
lol
Why people pay money/grind fake money in order to not actually play a game is beyond me.
Captain Tardbar wrote:And any players who answer in this thread "yes, I want more interactivity" are you going to personally mine because of these changes or is this just an expectation of what you think other people want?
Depends on how fun the mechanic is.
CCP has no sense of humour. |
Captain Tardbar
NEWB ALERT
306
|
Posted - 2013.04.25 14:57:00 -
[3] - Quote
Some Rando wrote:Captain Tardbar wrote:In this respect, I suspct that a good deal of miners who currently enjoyed their relaxing pastime (well when not being ganked) will find the game too interactive to sit there and relax. lol Why people pay money/grind fake money in order to not actually play a game is beyond me.
I don't know a good answer for this. It is a paradox. Its like if I want to play games, but I have home work to do. I can do both while mining. I suppose it feels like some sort of accomplishment to see my wallet numbers increase while I did homework.
If mining was too interactive I would have to choose to just do my homework (well or fail the class).
If people want to pay $14.95 to play a game in which they do X task that other do not find fun, I would consider that their right.
I mean I do not find gate camping fun when you don't see anyone coming through for 30 minutes at a time, yet I do consider those who gate game have a right to spend their time that way.
If someone wants to stare at a screen and do nothing for hours on end, its just as a valid gameplay choice.
Its paying CCP's bill.
On a side note, I think that blurb about asteroid mining is about real life asteroid mining and not changes to EVE's mining mechanics. It was a great troll by CCP they way they worded it.
"Entitlement" is a euphemism for "I hate the way you play and it makes me cry like a baby".
If you fantasize about being immoral it means you enjoy being immoral deep down. |
Domina Trix
McKNOBBLER DRINKING CLAN
38
|
Posted - 2013.04.25 14:57:00 -
[4] - Quote
"Miners seem to enjoy playing the game with little or no interaction"
How do you know this without there being an option to mine WITH interaction to compare to?
I do like the irony of you playing SWTOR and talking about mining on EVE having no interaction. At least in EVE you have to actually have your account logged in to gain crafting materials.
I would like mining in eve to have more interaction the problem is that EVE is supported by players with multiple accounts and I think it is fair to say that many of those alt accounts are there for mining operations. If mining is made more interactive to the point where it is difficult or impossible to control multiple miners at once this will only end with less subscriptions which is something the bean counters at CCP will not tolerate. If the interaction is something that is easy to do over multiple accounts then there is little point in changing from the current system.
Two of the defining characteristics of a carebear are wanting other players to play the way the carebear wants and whining on the forums for the game to change when they don't. Yet I see more threads on these forums from gankers than I do miners whining about wanting the game changed to suit them. |
Abrazzar
Vardaugas Family
1419
|
Posted - 2013.04.25 14:58:00 -
[5] - Quote
IMHO, there should be a choice between low interactivity mining and high interactivity mining. One being low in efficiency, the other being high by comparison.
Mining Overhaul
Nothing changed since 2008. |
Toshiroma McDiesel
Lupus Draconis
Dragehund
118
|
Posted - 2013.04.25 14:59:00 -
[6] - Quote
Hi Sec, I can see why people think it can be boring. But I also like the quite time sometimes.
As for the whole mini-game idea, I keep saying it, and I don't see my thoughts on it changing anytime soon. Basically miners will go from being afk watching a movie to afk playing a mini game. It's the same thing, really. Afk in this case being that you are not watching your surroundings for gankers. Your attention it is focused somewhere else other than local/D-scan. While this might be ok in Hi Sec, I don't see this going over very well in Null (never been there, can't say from experience), and it really won't go in WH (where I do mine, and it's already sort of a mini game, spamming D-Scan non stop).
I"m not really the Evil One, I'm just his answering service. |
baltec1
Bat Country
6080
|
Posted - 2013.04.25 15:09:00 -
[7] - Quote
AFK miners is a good thing for us gankers. |
Debra Scully
Imperial Phoenix Legion
2
|
Posted - 2013.04.25 15:36:00 -
[8] - Quote
I'd imagine most bot programs are good enough to still be able to bot even a heavily more interactive mining interface, so I don't know that making it more interactive would do away with botting if that is the goal. I get the impression reading the forums there are mission running bots, so I'm guessing they could handle whatever UI change a mining overhaul would entail.
As for non-botters, I wouldn't believe for a second more than a tiny percentage of miners are actually staring at their monitor the whole time watching their harvesters cycle, and aren't at least semi-afk because mining is so soul-crushingly boring, but the upside is you do stuff on your main on your other computer, watch TV, or whatever while still being able to keep an eye on dscan/local
IMO if they make mining more interactive, they need to also make it more profitable. My suggestion would be to seriously up m3/min of ore gathered as compensation for requiring more micro-management, if that comes to pass. Reducing the amount of ore per asteriod while increasing the number of asteroids and/or shortening harvester cycle time would make it more interactive, but no less boring. Having mining lasers break off chunks of rock that need to be manually gathered like a container would certainly be more interactive, but again, no less tedious.
TBH I don't see how you make resources gathering exciting. I've yet to play a MMO where this has been the case. |
Six Six Six
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
5
|
Posted - 2013.04.25 15:46:00 -
[9] - Quote
Captain Tardbar wrote:Mining draws the type of persons who don't want to bother with missions (which by most accounts is simply aggro managment). Miner's seem to enjoy playing the game with little interaction as possible. The pinacle of this aspect is found with people who ice mine which is basically targeting an ice rock, pushing a button, and then waiting 30 minutes.
These people have no interest in playing a game that requires them to push buttons every 60 secdonds. Even regular mining can be done mostly done afk.
For a lot of people mining is a semi-afk activity. Make it more hands on and it's likely a lot of those that mine now won't bother.
Captain Tardbar wrote:
Like I said, I don't know what most miner's do while mining. I have talked to people that actually sit there and watch the rocks, but I suspect most of them do other things while playing EVE. Things like watching Youtube or Netflix, chat on teamspeak, troll the forums, listen to music, or generally do other things. (I have been known to do homework).
I used to semi-afk mine, but I normally just used to read a book. But it's not something I do anymore so any changes to mining won't have that much effect on me. |
Unsuccessful At Everything
The Troll Bridge
3298
|
Posted - 2013.04.25 15:50:00 -
[10] - Quote
Decrease all mining cycles to 15 seconds.
Decrease all mining yields to compensate.
Remove auto-repeat from mining modules.
Mining. Now with more interactivity.
Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings? |
Six Six Six
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
5
|
Posted - 2013.04.25 15:52:00 -
[11] - Quote
Unsuccessful At Everything wrote:Decrease all mining cycles to 15 seconds.
Decrease all mining yields to compensate.
Remove auto-repeat from mining modules.
Mining. Now with more interactivity.
That would just make it more boring than it already is. |
Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc
358
|
Posted - 2013.04.25 15:54:00 -
[12] - Quote
Six Six Six wrote:Unsuccessful At Everything wrote:Decrease all mining cycles to 15 seconds.
Decrease all mining yields to compensate.
Remove auto-repeat from mining modules.
Mining. Now with more interactivity.
That would just make it more boring than it already is.
I agree.
OP, If you read the leak properly, you know that interactivity will be here to improve mining yeld. Meaning that afk mining will still be possible.
G££ <= Me |
March rabbit
epTa Team Inc.
653
|
Posted - 2013.04.25 16:27:00 -
[13] - Quote
Unsuccessful At Everything wrote:Decrease all mining cycles to 15 seconds.
Decrease all mining yields to compensate.
Remove auto-repeat from mining modules.
Mining. Now with more interactivity.
have fun to mix this with monitoring local and d-scan  |
Inxentas Ultramar
Ultramar Independent Contracting
Home Front Coalition
429
|
Posted - 2013.04.25 16:58:00 -
[14] - Quote
Planatery Interaction. 1 hour cycles. Problem solved. |
Josef Djugashvilis
Acme Mining Corporation
1159
|
Posted - 2013.04.25 17:10:00 -
[15] - Quote
Most original thread of the last 5 minutes or so.
This is not a signature. |
Georgina Parmala
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
78
|
Posted - 2013.04.25 17:17:00 -
[16] - Quote
I think mining by nature is a "do while" task, and in many ways not just in EvE. That's not always watching TV or vacuuming. A large number of these players are actively playing another account, updating market orders, forum warrioring, EFT warrioring, Spreadsheet warmongering or just chatting in various in or out of game channels. They are still "playing EvE".
Resource acquisition mini games are... i wouldn't say fun... more interesting, the first few times you use them. But after 100 hours of it, is it really interesting or any kind of a challenge? If it's a challenge, you are diverting the player's attention outside high sec. How can you play a challenging improve yield mini game while mashing DScan every 3 seconds? By definition it can't be challenging and twitch based. Which turns it into something, that at the very least in the realm of high sec, will become a mundane task designed for nothing more than keeping the player at the keyboard.
This can be counter productive. While keeping the actual AFK's at the keyboard, you are also drawing the attention of players who are performing otherwise EvE-related activity. The key point here is they mine despite it being boring, because they entertain themselves with other aspects of the game in the mean time. If you force them to actively perform a more involved but equally boring activity for terrible profit margins, they will quit (at least mining). Or at the very least significantly reduce the amount of time they spend at it.
Now that can largely be addressed from a gameplay standpoint by increasing mining yield to compensate for the dwindling number of miners. Which will keep the same resource flow into the game and improve the profit margin for the dedicated miner. But from a business standpoint, this will reduce a 30 man isboxer mining fleet to the tune of two to four accounts. There is also the risk to consider of making it a lucrative enough activity, that new players feel forced to perform it as the premier low skill point money making activity. Then get bored to death, doing something they don't enjoy just for the money, before experiencing more of the game.
I've found myself too lazy to even AFK mine at times lately. I end up screwing around on forums, or with EFT, or just chat with friends while sitting in a POS bubble for an hour instead. That's partially related to my very limited play time lately, partially to me making sufficient profits elsewhere that it feels like too much work(lol) for too little money. |
Mr HardLuck
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2013.04.25 17:26:00 -
[17] - Quote
I keep reading about how mining is mostly an afk proposition. Maybe this is the case for somebody who runs a retriever and can park in a belt shooting a couple of rocks and filling his jetcan sized hold, this isn't the case for me.
I run a mining fleet which consists of 5 hulks an orca and a hauler. My cycle times on strip miners are just a little over 2 minutes. I can't just press buttons and then go away. With the yield I push out most rocks are popped within 2 cycles (4 minutes) I also have to ensure that each miner is hitting the correct ore type to avoid double and triple taps and am constantly having to lock more rocks across multiple accounts. Also I don't use ISBoxer, tried it, and currently not a fan. Needless to say, I'm pretty micromanaged to the hilt. If CCP wants to increase the degree of micromanagement then they can either add some form of automation, ie perhaps an automatic emptying of ore holds to the orca or perhaps a target list for the strip miners to follow. These are merely my suggestions off the top of my head so no need to start screaming about ZOMG TEH BOTZ!!!
I run a fleet to be profitable and mining is the way that I *choose* to make my isk. If mining is to become more involved to the point that I can't keep up with several accounts then I'll drop accounts to the point that it becomes manageable. If yield is not compensated for the more hands on management then I'll simply go find something else to do which may involve not spending so much money on Eve.
TL;DR tread carefully when "fixing" mining.
Thank you for your time. |
Abrazzar
Vardaugas Family
1429
|
Posted - 2013.04.25 17:44:00 -
[18] - Quote
Some basic concept of the multi-ore asteroids to differentiate between interactivity and reward:
1.) Strip mining
Mines all ores in the rock at a relative distribution at a low but steady rate.
2.) Focused mining
Mines a specific ore you have to scan out a deposit first and mine until it depletes, needing to scan a new deposit or a new rock.
3.) Deep Core Mining
Mines a specific high quality ore with using heat maps that require regular adjustment to stay efficient and a lot of moving between rocks.
Mining Overhaul
Nothing changed since 2008. |
Josef Djugashvilis
Acme Mining Corporation
1160
|
Posted - 2013.04.25 18:29:00 -
[19] - Quote
This thread should be locked for complete lack of original content.
Move on folk, moan about something different for a change.
This is not a signature. |
Dave Stark
2842
|
Posted - 2013.04.25 18:31:00 -
[20] - Quote
Unsuccessful At Everything wrote:Decrease all mining cycles to 15 seconds.
Decrease all mining yields to compensate.
Remove auto-repeat from mining modules.
Mining. Now with more interactivity.
in that case, remove auto repeat from guns too. |
Jane Schereau
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
19
|
Posted - 2013.04.25 18:45:00 -
[21] - Quote
The truth of the matter is that if mining begins to require more interaction, ore prices will go through the roof as the current miners leave the game or go do something else. In the meantime though, mining will begin attracting other kinds of players, perhaps missioners, who like interaction. Prices will then go down, but not to the point to where they were before, simply due to the fact you probably can't get as many players doing it as before, when it was an activity you could easily set and come back to some time later. |
Darth Gustav
Interwebs Cooter Explosion
Fatal Ascension
2204
|
Posted - 2013.04.25 19:08:00 -
[22] - Quote
Jane Schereau wrote:The truth of the matter is that if mining begins to require more interaction, ore prices will go through the roof as the current miners leave the game or go do something else. In the meantime though, mining will begin attracting other kinds of players, perhaps missioners, who like interaction. Prices will then go down, but not to the point to where they were before, simply due to the fact you probably can't get as many players doing it as before, when it was an activity you could easily set and come back to some time later.
This is an interesting variation on "Miners will quit the game if "x". Well played.
Still, ores were already fairly interactive to mine compared to ice because they were already depletable while ice wasn't.
Oh noes! Cheaper ships at the cost of slightly more expensive fuel!
Interactivity in mining will do this game some good because a higher barrier to success adds value to the profession.
He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller.
-Darth Gustav's Axiom |
Garresh
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
126
|
Posted - 2013.04.25 19:29:00 -
[23] - Quote
You can watch Netflix, use vent/team speak, troll the forums, and read stuff while doing almost ANY pve activity in eve.
Source: years of watching Netflix and trolling the forums while exploring in lowsec, wspace, and even while hunting for amarr in factional warfare.
This Space Intentionally Left Blank |
Captain Tardbar
NEWB ALERT
308
|
Posted - 2013.04.25 19:34:00 -
[24] - Quote
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:This thread should be locked for complete lack of original content.
Move on folk, moan about something different for a change.
Well this is the first time it was shown that CCP is removing ice belts. Also if the CSM leak is to believed they are planning more interactive asteroid mining so its more pressing concern as of now.
Maybe they will give more information over the course of the EVE fanfest. But who knows?
"Entitlement" is a euphemism for "I hate the way you play and it makes me cry like a baby".
If you fantasize about being immoral it means you enjoy being immoral deep down. |
Dave Stark
2844
|
Posted - 2013.04.25 19:38:00 -
[25] - Quote
Darth Gustav wrote:Jane Schereau wrote:The truth of the matter is that if mining begins to require more interaction, ore prices will go through the roof as the current miners leave the game or go do something else. In the meantime though, mining will begin attracting other kinds of players, perhaps missioners, who like interaction. Prices will then go down, but not to the point to where they were before, simply due to the fact you probably can't get as many players doing it as before, when it was an activity you could easily set and come back to some time later. This is an interesting variation on "Miners will quit the game if "x". Well played. Still, ores were already fairly interactive to mine compared to ice because they were already depletable while ice wasn't. Oh noes! Cheaper ships at the cost of slightly more expensive fuel! Interactivity in mining will do this game some good because a higher barrier to success adds value to the profession.
it's not that miners will leave the game, it'll just make multiboxers get rid of a few accounts.
the reason people don't multibox more than a handful of accounts for combat is the diminishing returns of splitting bounties and having to pay so much attention. on the other hand mining can be scaled infinitely, to the point where people can and do have 10+ accounts. should mining be a more active activity then without flat out botting it will not be economical to run that many accounts.
hence, accounts will become inactive/unsubscribed. it won't cause players to quit, but it will lower the number of active accounts.
not to mention, for the same effort you can get more isk/hour ratting, doing missions, masturbating etc then people will do that instead leading to even lower supply and thus increasing ore prices.
|
Skaz
Skazmanian Industries
43
|
Posted - 2013.04.25 19:47:00 -
[26] - Quote
Introducing!
CAPTCHA MINING!!!
|
Dave Stark
2845
|
Posted - 2013.04.25 19:51:00 -
[27] - Quote
Skaz wrote:Introducing!
CAPTCHA MINING!!!
**** that. |
Xen Solarus
Inner 5phere
393
|
Posted - 2013.04.25 20:05:00 -
[28] - Quote
This will boil down to two different points of view. Those that hate all afk-style play, and those that enjoy playing EvE for exactly that reason. I certainly don't agree with the people that view afk-play as bad, they just like to force their views on how the game should be played. Because obviously, everyone should play the game for exactly that same reason.
Lets hope that any changes to mining allow both sides to continue to enjoy the game. Increased yelds for those looking to actively mine, and the old-style for those that want to get isk passively while watching the latest episode of [insert good series here].
Post with your main, like a BOSS! |
Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E.
1774
|
Posted - 2013.04.25 21:30:00 -
[29] - Quote
I think you may be swapping cause and effect here. People who mine do not want to interact with the game as little as possible so they can do something else, they want to do something else while getting something of use done in Eve. For example, ice mining lets me make a little ISK while paying the bills, catching up on reading, or watching the latest Dr Who. If not for the current ice mining mechanic I might as well log off while I pay the bills.
Current mining has a mechanic that lets a player be involved with the game at least peripherally while the player spend time doing something else. If mining took more effort players would not stop the other activity, they would log off.
Remember this is an MMO. The "O" stands for On-line. A change in game mechanics that encourages players to log off most likely is not a good one. The player would not see if a corp mate needed help, or a roam was going to start, and so on.
I remember a dev of an inde multi-player game saying that he would watch the lobby for his game. A player would log in, see no one else, and log out. A minute later someone else would do the same thing. No one hang around because there was nothing to do in the lobby. Well Eve has something to do: Mining.
As for the economy, there was a rumor that the speed of the miners were to be increased, so even with less mining the economy would be fine.
http://vincentoneve.wordpress.com/ |
Dave Stark
2845
|
Posted - 2013.04.25 21:35:00 -
[30] - Quote
the problem with mining isn't the mechanics of the activity, it's with the fact that it encourages being antisocial. interacting with other players is nothing but detrimental. |
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